credit agencies downgrading and leaders the world over scrambling, think it can happen again? nervous bankers all, but banking on it. i'm neil cavuto and fox on top of banks on the brink and some of the biggest here downgraded and some of the biggest in europe seeing them all, but annihilated and so sweeping, if you were a bank, any bank, well, just bank on getting battered. and bank on the left we haven't seen in years. and three years, to be exact. and back then, we had a meltdown, kind of makes you wonder this time what's going down. let's get to ben stein and charles payne, dagen mcdowell along with adam, charlie gasperino, what do you think? >> we're not in 2008 levels. if we were at 2008 levels, morn stanley would have bn insolvent by today and it's not. they were facing the biggest rumors and their stock went down to december, 2008 levels, credit the default swaps, insurance policies on the debt

blew out-- >> you don't think a meltdown is in the offing? >> i'm pretty sure it's not going to happen. i can never guarantee anything, but they withstood that, plenty of capital and a rumor they were exposed to french banks. i spoke with james gorman who-- >> who is james gorman. >> the ceo of morn stanley. >> neil: society general and-- >> and don't share my-- >> okay, bottom line, you don't see it happening? >> net zero exposure it french banks, dagen. >> i'm not worried about the u.s. banks, so much better funded and capitalized than in 2008, but they. >> neil: they've been coughing up blood the last couple of weeks. >> they are, but we're not in any danger, with the liquidity-- coughing up blood means the stocks are down. >> losing money. >> the stocks are down. >> the stocks have tanked. do i have to do your job, too. >> the stocks are tanking because the economy is--

>> you say coughing up blood, it conjures up images of loses lots of money and taking huge write-downs on exposure to debt. >> bank stocks worldwide down a trillion dollars. >> worldwide. >> the european banks are a different story, but wouldn't they love to nationallize them. >> neil: charles. >> first of all, i mean, i don't know that the stock market is not a harbinger of things to come. it's not telling us, yes, they're coughing up blood, we're going to find out later. i agree agree, it may not be 2008, it's the son of 2008. the same dna and holding the-- >> did you see beneath the planet of the ape, worse by far. but rise of the planet of the apes wasn't too bad. >> and ben stein, we're left in this sort of weird world where so many are worried and bank of america getting down grades and saying, well, you know, a unique situation, still has a lot of good things on the books. it's not like 2008. what do you say? >> warren buffet just put 5

billion, of his own money out of his own pocket into bank of america securities. if he thinks it's solvent, if he thinks it's a worthwhile bet i will put my money with. >> neil: you absolutely love warren buffet. >> i love warren buffett. >> if he thought the bank was going to be insolvent or even if there's a remote chance he would not have put his money there. he's a very smart guy and trust him ahead of moody's any day of the week. >> but, ben. >> well capitalized and great shape. >> and the fact they had to give him a deal. and at these levels, why are they doing that? >> they want to be better capitalized. they're well had-capitalized and they want to get more capitalized. >> neil: adam, get into that. >> well, in a way things are far better than 2008 for the american banks in particular and this is key, the capital levels are higher. that means they're in a safer position. they're not in threat of going down, as charlie correctly

said. going down by which i mean dying. on the other hand what we're seeing to answer your questions, charles, these banks are trying to shore themselves up, shore up the balance sheets, but the businesses are bad. >> why are they bad? >> and they're laying off workers, and this economy and-- >> you've been reporting on this. >> and dodd-frank is squeezing them to death. yes, that is. and you don't exit proprietary trading and say that goldman sachs is going to make the same money. and banks and geldman sacks and morgan stanley are going to get hammered because of dodd-franks and the banks make money when the u.s. economy improves and-- >> let me finish the point i'm making. the earnings are down for a variety of reason. you said one, another is that the housing market isn't coming back. >> how about the economy? >> and that's the biggest worry of all. >> where bank of america-- >> it's not the economy not coming back, it's the economy getting precipitously worse.

aen that's one and those home loans going. >> i don't think that's true. i don't think you can produce evidence saying the economy is getting precipitously worse. >> i said it's the worry that it will. >> i said it's the worry that it will. >> the worry, i'm sorry. >> and persistently worse. >> you can predict that-- >> i think you're cavalier. >> i'm a customer, not an investor, but a customer and find it disconcerting when i go to the atm and says do you really need the cash today? (laughter) >> now what? >> by the way you're going to start a bank run. >> no, when you lose that much in market value across the board, all of these, that doesn't have some effect? >> well, investors were saying this, you know, bank of america's special case, they're sort of representative of the u.s. economy not getting better, and maybe getting worse, maybe not precipitously getting worse, but worse by a lot of

measures. >> you're arguing despite what moody's is saying that you argue, a trillion dollars in assets? >> a trillion dollars in deposits which you might make up all that have-- >> and that alone is the reason why, the government wouldn't let it go down. >> and the other big reason is, 2 trillion dollars of assets on the books of trades, remember, lehman brothers, and every policy maker, whether you agree with it or not, bernanke, who is the other guy? geithner, who is the fed president at the time. lehman brothers, that's the biggest mistake letting lehman go with a balance sheet of 500 billion. bank of america, 2 trillion. >> and what was saving them in the first place. >> that's not the-- the issue. >> please don't say that, please don't say that. >> the issue is will they bail them out. forget will hope. >> you can't mean that, charles to let bank of america fail would guarantee a depression. you cannot mean that, i beg you to reconsider your words. >> we've thrown trillions and trillions and trillions of dollars at these guys. >> and we don't have a

depression. >> and life has gone down the tubes and why do we keep-- >> unwind it. >> no, you can't unwind it, you cannot unwind. >> it's interesting that charles said this knowing full well knowing that i am a customer. >> all right. we're going to take a break here, when we come back with markets melting down, is it any time to be raising taxes up? even this guy is saying, you know what? not so fast. i know you're worried about making your savis last and having enough income when you retire. that's why i'm here -- to help come up with a plan and get you on the right path. i have more than a thousand fidelity experts working with me so that i can work one-on-one with you. it's your green line. but i'll be there every step of the way.

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>> hi everyone, we're live from america's news headquarters, i'm jamie colby. the senate democrats blocking a house spending bill again threatening a house shutdown. congress divided over emergency funding to aid for disaster victims and housing wants offset by budget spending cuts. senate opposes that and without a deal, fema could run out of cash b tuesday. if the bill is passed by

september 30th, the federal government may face a shutdown. there was a major security bust at jfk airport, police arresting a man who tried to board a saudi airline flight with a bag full of weapons. a taser, a stun gun pen, electric stun batons and pepper spray. the man claimed he he was taking the weapons to saudi arabia to give to his family. i'm jamie colby, keep it on fox. >> if asking a billionaire to pay their fair share of taxes, to pay the same tax rate as a plumber or a teacher is class warfare, then you know what? i'm a warrior for the middle cla class. >> neil: president obama continuing his quest for higher taxes for top earners, one top earner not seeing eye to eye with the president of the united states, former

president bill clinton. and charles payne, you argue whether you're for or answers this, now is not the time period, right. >> now is absolutely not the time. a couple of things, we talk billionaires and we know he's talking people making $250,000, that's the disingenuous part of it. it's time to divvy up the spoils, if you will. we can no longer go higher, america's topped out now it's time to split up the money and see what happens from here. >> what buffet has been saying and what the president has been saying largely is untrue, that people pay above a million dollars, millionaires in this country, pay a tax rate on average that is significantly higher than the average paid by people, say, making 550 to $100,000, period, it's more than double based on data from 2008. you cannot say that. it might apply to buffett and a few people out there, but it's simply not true. >>'s talking capital gains tax.

>> where he makes most of his money. >> that's right, but do not make it-- >> but you're the president and you go out and you extrapolate that and make it sound like-- >> and listen, ill 'll be hones with you, i have no problem with obama playing class warfare, buffett is a hypocrite. makes most on capital gains, he's talking small businesses and people trying to make the billions that he made and warren buffett is a hypocrite. >> neil: ben stein, your hero is a hypocrite. >> my hero is one of the great geniuses of american system, a man who conferred incredible value upon hundreds of thousands if not millions of working people who look to him for-- . >> neil: do you agree with his view on taxes? he feels guilty not paying them? >> wait, i agree that the rich should pay at least as much as the middle class. i think that dagen nailed , unless the rich are paying capital gains tax they are in fact already paying more.

i am an upper income taxpayer and i don't notice that my taxes are particularly low. they're frighteningly high and unfortunately they have to be higher to make up for excess spending, but right now, right now, if the economy, em treem economy teetered let's not have any changes, let's keep it steady as she goes until things settle down a little bit. >> neil: in the meantime, adam lashinsky, i think it's important in the argument who pays what on what. the average income. 250,000 and over crowd, by the irs tax tables themselves, still paying a rate that is double, that is double what those in lower rates are paying. and leaving aside who is getting what with capital gains, the average rate is doubled. not just the intake, it's the rate itself, then what point is it to argue about fairness when you know, and this is anyone arguing this, that close to half of american households pay no income taxes at all, leaving-- where is the fairness in

making one argument on fairness and ignoring the other? >> i think that you know, what you're referring to, i've coined a term called the working rich, the people you're referring to are the working rich, because they get most of their income from ordinary income and they pay taxes on it, relatively high taxes compared to what warren buffett is talking about. the question is one of timing here, look, neil, there's good aspects to our democrat city and bad aspects to it. the good thing would be if the president reacted when his commission had suggestions what to do with the deficit which included tax reform, which included certain higher taxes, but he he didn't. he kind of ignored it then and now we're in a campaign cycle. we do have things to do, we could raise taxes and it would be responsible, but i'm the not going to-- >> oh, and raising taxes is responsible, and i do say this, charles payne, if you're

going in the media we have an obligation to present all sides. if one argument is it's only fair the rich pay more and ignore the fact that they already pay more, in fact the most and leave out the fact that close to half of american taxed households are not paying any income taxes at all. it's fair to point that out. >> it's fair to point that out and fair to point out if you look where taxes go to a public services, it's a part that the people who really aren't paying anything that suck up most of the services, if you look at new york city, or boston, it's where the poorest people live where the most policemen have to go and fight crime and solve murders and firemen have to go. they suck up the services and are not paying anything. >> good for you, charles. >> and the president's plan not only did he ignore his own commission on tax reform, he is doing the exact opposite of what they suggested, that is getting rid of loopholes, but lowering tax rates, simplifying the tax code which is what jfk did, and he's got

to backwards, upside down and wrong. >> neil: all right. it is weird though. i just-- when you listen to the media i don't care what side you're on and hearing one side of the story being told, and say, is there another side of the story? you're in the wrong channel you're on this one now. and throwing a half billion dollar at a bankrupt solar company trying 600,000 at dead federal workers, is it any wonder, we're drowning in debt? ♪ [ male announcer ] we're not employers or employees. not white collar or blue collar or no collars. we are business in america. and every day we awake to the same challenges. but at prudential we're helping companies everywhere find new solutions to manage risk, capital and employee benefits,

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>> dead people collecting checks yet again. american taxpayers may get the shaft again because there's a new report that shows more than 600 million dollars have gone to dead in the past five years. a drop in the bucket, but dagen, we've had a lot of drops in the buckets. >> the fact that 120 million a year is a rounding error given our budget deficit is nauseating. that's where we are in this country and you see, when is it going to stop? when is it going to stop until the start, that's the only way it will stop in terms of the mismanagement of taxpayer money. the story about the justice department audit with the $8 cups of coffee and alleged $16 muffin. it doesn't matter. you can quibble about it. but wasted money, millions of dollars on conferences. and how about the 19 billion in state unemployment aid paid

in the last years, but-- >> the millions that we're giving to prison convicts and medicare prescriptions written out to patients long dead ultimately doctors later to be found dead and money went out to kids and got mad at my kid for not getting in on that gravy train (laughter) >> charles what is going on. >> in a way it's good marketing. and saying you can get paid after you're dead. union members. >> neil: or a government worker. >> and we were talking, vilifying, demonizing rather income of $250,000 a more as greedy rich and lose half a billion on solyndra and we're about to fork over more to more companies. the cavalier attitude saying it's not a big deal when it is. >> neil: ben stein, the sheer amount we're spending and losing. the bigger amounts spending on

more percentage terms, you're going to lose, right. >> i'm afraid that's true. there's a lot of waste in big organizations, a lot of waste in big organizations, private and public, and it's very unfortunate that it happens, but it does happen. i just wonder if those 6 high school million dollars in checks were cashed and cashed by people live and pretending they were somebody else. >> right. >> why isn't there some kind of criminal prosecution of the people. we seem to have an awful lot of criminal abuse of the federal government's money and very few people prosecuted. what's that about? >> that's a good point and adam lashinsky, hard getting back to the convicts, they're already in jail. adam, what do you think of it? >> because, he neil, because to execute ben's suggestion, charles would almost certainly oppose funding the prosecutors to go after that money. he would say, no more government spending, i mean, come on. and ben is exactly right, big organizations have waste, it's not good. >> with all due respect, don't compare this to a company. don't compare this to a

company, come on. >> you can compare it to a company. >> the taxpayers dollars, our dollars. >> the organizations, i guarantee-- i'm not saying they're perfect because i use today work there. ge did an is a much better run organization than the federal government, i will guarantee that. >> i don't know about that. >> i really don't know about that. >> and i believe that ge-- >> and now what? >> i will tell you this, this is the reason why, why every time ben says we need to raise taxes my head almost explodes because of this stuff. think about it, we have so much of this and we're talking entertaining the notion of raising taxes, it's crazy. aim he not saying don't raise taxes, but look at this. >> let ben answer that, real quick. >> charlie, with all due respect, there's going to be a lot of waste and we have to get used to it and we also have to fund prosecutors to prosecute the people who-- >> o. >> charles last word. >> the difference between a corporation and the government is accountability, bottom line. >> horse feathers and horse

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>> neil: stocks around the lowest level of the year. gang has a rebound pick ready for a comeback. charles, what do you got? >> swinging for the fences with fossil. they make watches for themselves and other people. it will make a big move. >> neil: adam, what do you think of that? >> well, i wouldn't be going into any kind of retailer now, especially with the forecasts about a weak holiday christmas shopping season, neil. >> what are you buying? >> hewlett-packard. i know that is going to shock people but it's been creamed for obvious reasons and terrible management problems. essentially the same set of assets worth 50% more less than a few months ago. it's a great value opportunity. >> neil: meg whitman is going to keep everything in place as the manager, right? whatever. >> i'm a contrarian, too but this is the island of misfit toys. give it time to settle down before jumping in. >> neil: that's how i live my life by the way. ben, what are you doing?

>> hatteris financial. this is a company that sells mortgage-back securities but they're backed by the federal government. that is to say they will tell you income insurance, income produced by mortgages but the mortgages are all guaranteed by federal insured entities, federally backed entities. good return, off the high. i think it will recover. people realize the government is not going to let the entities fail. >> neil: interesting, ben, something that has the assurance of government backing it up. >> when the government is involved how can it go wrong? >> neil: you would agree with it? >> i like the risk-reward on it. >> neil: thank you. we continue with david asman on "forbes on fox." you're watching the network for business news. it has fox on it. you have want to stay with it. here is david. >> david: stocks tanking this week. now a new report says housing prices will stay in the tank until the end of 2015. now the housing crash got