>> anti-corporate protests, popping up across america. they're hitting the streets again today. targeting everyone from bankers to small businesses. but with unemployment still stuck at 9.1%, is it taxing america's job creators only going to make it worse? hi, i'm brenda buttner, it's bulls and bears, gary b smith, tobin smith. jonas max ferris, todd shownberger and ivan fitch. gary b, will bashing the job creators only make unemployment worse? >> i believe it is, brenda. you know, the whole occupy wall street when they are throwing their barbs and protesting, they're protesting when you get down to it, everyone one of us and the job

creating machines. i took a look at top 50 companies, they're like wal-mart, safeway, target, general motors, disney, i mean, are these really evil companies? and even, brenda, if you say that they're really talking about the banks, you look at some of the banks and they're wells fargo, citi, jp morgan chase, these banks alone employ a million people. there's always this notion, there's all of these corporate fat cats, i can guarantee you at citibank, most of the people that work there, 2, 300,000 are tellers, they're security guards, they're back office people. and finally, brenda, when they denigrate corporate, this evil corporate america, let's remember that the vast majority of people out there with 401(k) and pension plans are invested in the at & t's of the world, the verizons, doing this not only hurts job creation, it hurts everyone's

pocket book. >> toby, they also were targeting small businesses, they went right to the u.s. chamber of commerce. >> yeah. >> well, really, they should have resume's in their hands. if this is about getting employment, get resume' and small business people are the ones who do create the vast majority of jobs in the united states and they have this backwards. they just have it backwards and protesting some thing where the reality is get your butt in line, get a resume' and you'll get a job, it takes a lot of work. >> okay, so, do you think it's really this kind of protest, pe even if it is televised has much to do with the company's business plan. do you think they actually change their business plan based on groups of people protesting them? >> i don't, brenda. and you know, there's no doubt that some of these protesters be confused about how, you know, carpet policies work and how the economy works, but they get a few things right.

they're probably is the system that's rigged to help bosses and a lot of the people protesting are not bosses and they're not going to be bosses. they aren't going to be bosses and would like a bigger piece of the wealth. and hiring plans, a lot of the companies they complain about employ an awful lot of people. i don't think that wal-mart is going to refuse to expand next year because it feels bad over some things said about these protes protests. >> brenda: todd, what do you think? >> look, they have a right to protest, first of all. number two, they're arguing because representing and i believe this, joe he q public right now, who is frustrated. listen, they're ill-informed, and they don't sawn what's taking place on wall street and targeting the areas and going forward, i can't blame these people. unemployment is at 9% and destined to go into double digit and the people are angry and shouting at the wrong group, obviously. >> who should they be shouting

out. >> they've got to go to the white house, go to washington and the inflammatory rhetoric started this and the fact that they're screaming and yelling, if you ask nine out of every ten protesters. they don't know what they're protesting about. >> and you're the only one screaming here. >> okay, let's go to somebody who never screams and yells. >> exactly. >> jonas? >> i'm not going to take it anymore. >> oh (laughter) >> first of all, they're occupyiokay wall street. they're mad at the banks. and they're angry at the banks for a bailout and that's the core thing, the core argumented that started the tea party movement and the only difference, they think they should get a bailout like the banks got and the tea parties will think nobody should get a bailout. that's the difference. >>, but you actually made a coherent statement which i haven't heard from these guys in two weeks, this is like "les mis" without the good

music there. >> brenda, the other thing is, let's not forget the beginning of the bailout, a lot of that money, quite honestly was forced on the banks and they went through stress tests, so a lot of this was government intervention, being forced there, to quote, unquote, save the system. whether you agree with that or not. and the other thing is, i think, almost all of these loans, these bailout loans to the banks have been paid back with interest. so, i can understand they want a bigger slice of the pie, but you know, as toby and others have mentioned you've got to do like my daughter did. a year graduated from college and she's working the graveyard shift as a waitress six nights a week, so, yeah, it's tough out there. i agree, i sympathize. >> the protesters don't need to do that. look, we're actually coddling these people and look, they're obviously unexpired, lazy and they want their payments they want the unemployment benefits and medical marijuana and protest which they have every right to do. >> why are they and the people protesting aren't lazy and

protesting. >> you're right, you know what, if these protesters wearing three piece suits we'd probably respect them more and maybe took a shower and take a shower for three weeks, go down to southern and mant. >> dave:. >> brenda: jonas, they're not just protesting the big companies and the banks, this is not just about banks, not just about wall street and it's not in wall street, it's across the country, lately and some of it is backed by unions, certainly. but, it's based on small-- it's going after small businesses as well. >> it is, because it's going to encompass all kind of like far left, essentially, but the thing they don't understand, is the financial system got a bailout was probably the cheapest jobs program this government has done. to gary's point they did get most of the money back and, an event structure, but kept the

financing structure of america in place which means businesses can get loans and people can start companies. without that you would have much less job creation than with any government, other government program that could have cost the same money. >> brenda: but it's not tarp, it's not just tarp, toby, it's like we are mad. we're not getting what we want. >> yeah, i think my-- >> and i would wear a nirvana t-shirt or something and have a sign that says i'm mad about, blank line. i went down there yesterday and literally there have to be, i saw, every person that handed me a sticker, a button was for a different thing for crying out loud. and i think the message from this is that there are people who have this angst about their future and feel it's stolen from them and they have a right to do that and maybe people in washington would listen. >> brenda. >> brenda: you think about it, but the bargain here, gary b, used to be you work hard and you're able to get a house and able to get a job and in many places that bargain has been

broken and there is something to be said for that. >> sure. and there's no doubt about it, brenda, but we'll have to get back to, you know, why the bargain is being broken and i think that comes, quite honestly, from the uncertainty in the economy, you know, i'm sure the occupy wall street people would be the first to say, well, the corporations have all of this money and they're not spending it. the reason they're not spending it, brenda, everything out there from health care to tax policies and whatever, is cloudy right now. and in fact, it looks onerous, so, they have every right to hold back and i as a shareholder in some the companies, i agree with them. >> brenda: last word, ten seconds. >> a lot of the young people at the protests are looking at the fact that wages have stagnated for the middle class, and they don't want to continue to stagnate. they want a bigger slice of the pie and they diminish it, got to find a way to give it to them. >> get a job. >> brenda: coming up. >> ronald reagan.

>> ronald reagan. >> brenda: the white house using ronald reagan's name to sell its tax hike plan. but did the gipper really say what they said? the cavuto gang reports, you decide at the bottom of the hour. first, steve jobs, all of those jobs created. all those products invented. all without one dime from the government, his economic lesson for washington. or creates another laptop bag or hires another employee, it's not just good for business. it's good for the entire community. at bank of america, we know the impact that local businesses have on communities. that's why we extended $7.8 billion to small businesses across the country so far this year. because the more we help them, the more we help make opportunity possible.

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>> hi, everyone, live from america's news headquarters, i'm jamie colby. new fallout today in the solyndra scandal. explosive new e-mails showing the obama administration was considering whether to pump another 5.4 million dollars into the failing solar energy company in august. apparently energy department officials were eager to find a way to keep the failing company alive. solyndra filed for bankruptcy in late august, putting more

than a thousand people out of work and received 5.35 million dollars in federal loan guarantees. the u.s. today warningf terror targeting citizen nz kenya. credible information that they may unleash attacks on sporting events in the next few days, we'll have the latest on that and so much more, keep it here on the fox news channel. the most powerful name in news. back to bulls and bears, i'm jamie colby. . >> steve jobs, a genius at creating new products, new industries, new jobs, and he didn't need one penny from the government to do it. toby, you say d.c. needs to learn from this part of his legacy. >> well, there's no question. there's a silicon valley really started with apple and intel, et cetera, and this started by having infrastructure for education, having infrastructure for a

lets people take risks and capital gain and the infrastructure issues create this place where innovation could happen. beyond that get the hell out of the way and that's the message that steve jobs always had, which was that he thought different, worked different, but he he was in an environment he could create, could fail, take risk and that's where prosperity comes from in this world. >> brenda: it's interesting, apple spent less money lobbying than most corporations did. >> by far. >> brenda: another interesting fact. gary b, what do you think. >> i tell you what, brenda, i'll expand on toby's point. it's not that the government gets out of the way. not all, but most of the great successes of this country, a product-wise service-wise came from, not only business people unfettered by the government, but ruthless business people, look at thomas edison, a shrewd business person. look at the wright brothers, at the start business people. and disney wanted to create

this huge things to make money and people point to our defense industry, we have the greatest industry in the world, and why? because we have ruthless contractors coming up with innovative products to make millions of dollars. it's nothing to do with government mandates, that's why government needs to back off and let the entrepreneurial spirits rise. >> more ruthless capitalism. >> brenda: you don't agree? >> i'm sorry, the idea that steve jobs did all of this without a dime of government money is a fairy tale. >> come on. >> the government enforced his patents. the government subsidized the purchase of many of his computers for schools and he pushed especially hard for that. the government sued microsoft and apple benefitted and states offered subsidies to semiconductor companies and benefits apple. steve jobs is terrific and i love my ipad as much as anybody else, and yeah, he went to public school, he he

benefitted enormously for the government involvement. >> look, the products worked and efficient and that's why the government ended up subsidizing the programs. here was a man who was hungry and grew up poor and had to take soda bottles to the take the deposit money to feed himself. this was a guy clearly he had a government out of the way, but he had to take that innovation because he was hungry. edis edison, the wright brothers, everybody gary b was talking about, they were hungry and people are not hungry because the government is subsidizing them, that's the problem. >> that's nonsense. getting defense contracts, that's the epitome of government involved. i'm not-- >> i've got to get to everybody. jonas, he didn't need government, but that doesn't prove at that we don't need government. >> the good old days, no company growing more than apple. and the government a couple

years ago, the government part of the government sales, they play a role-- >> and that's a market. that's just a market. >> well, i'm explaining the differences. should the government be making phones or owning phone companies? no. there's an infrastructure called government patent and without that we wouldn't have that in america, the only thing makes america better, as long as the government is not in the phone business, it's a good thing. it's not. >> it is a role though, my point is, he understood there was a combination, a balance between private and public and particularly, in silicon valley, we have an excellent balance between what the government does, which essentially builds a stadium and what the players do, play the game. that's where innovation happens. >> i want to get back to, stephen, i don't agree that government has a role, don't get me wrong, the government should be there to enforce our laws, to protect our borders,

that i agree with. the reason that california was given subsidies, they were acting like a private company and they wanted apple's business as opposed to nevada or florida or somebody else getting the business. right there, i think that's kind of the difference between i view-- i don't want the government to go into a general motors and say, you guys really should be building green cars, versus hybrids, that's where i think the line is crossed. >> okay, that's going to be the last word. well, it's never been cheaper to get a home loan, this week the average rate on a 30-year fixed mortgage, get this, falling below 4% for the first time ever, but guess what? that's not the best news for housing. the government doing something these guys have been begging to help rebuild america. >> vanished and now police want answers nan exclusive interview, judge jeanine sits down with the parents. where were they, but more importantly where is baby lisa tonight. p

motorcycles, boats, even rv's. nobody knows where he got his love for racing. all we know is, it started early. casey mears, driver of the number thirteen geico toyota camry. geico, saving people money on more than just car insurance. >> coming up mortgage rates

down, d.c.'s foreclosure bailout program closing down. time for housing to pick up. plus, someone her

>> it could be the best sign we've seen for a housing turn around. no, not the 30 year mortgage rate falling below 4% for the first time, but this, the government shutting down its latest foreclosure bailout program. and turning over half billion unused tax dollars to the treasury. todd, you've been calling for d.c. to get out of housing and now that it's listening, is it time for a rebound? >> i think so, brenda. this is excellent news. baby steps. right now when you have the government stepping to the sidelines this can only help the housing market and the housing sector right now. they need everything they can get and now without government intervention and them involved we can get back to the free market and what we've been wanting. >> stephen, what do you think?

>> i agree in principle. let's get away from the notion that that program which was significant was a billion dollar program and this is a 20 trillion dollar market. nothing's going to jump start the housing market. the best thing for it are those low rates and time. we've got a little time pass and it has to happen. >> brenda: toby, not many people can take advantage of these rates because, you know, they don't have the equity. they don't have the credit rating. >> and it's unfortunate, but the bigger point here is that we have jimmy jacked around with all of these bailout deals and not allowed the free enterprise and free market system to find a bottom. and the price discovery modality, which is what free enterprise is, look it up. works when you don't have people bailing in and putting in extra things for cash for clunkers and bonuses and stuff. the more we did that, longer we extended the problem and by allowing the market to go through the system and unfortunately, it's painful and that's what has to happen. that's when you're going to get a sound footings on your

home. >> i cannot agree-- disagree more. because we have a multi-decade bend in real estate and it's going to take a long time of snow removal of the government. the only reason you can get pa mortgage under 4% is because of the government. because of numerous things they've done and continue to do. latest things the federal reserve playing games with the interest rates and buying the debt and mortgage debts they're buying, fannie and freddie. wall street doesn't have the securitization machine any more. no 4% loans the at the government. some day we'll get out of it and we can handle it. right now it's holding up the creepy real estate thing. >> the bond market difficult rates. >> gary b? >> well, i think stephen and jonas are kind of saying the right thing. it's not a question, as todd pointed out correctly, i believe, by the government getting out it's going to help the housing market. i think it will. i think, you know, jonas and stephen, will say, it won't help it overnight. >> sure. >> and i also agree with that. but, brenda, you brought up a good point. you said well, people can't get the mortgages. well, one of the reasons they

can't get these mortgages is because on the flip side, the government has made reporting and capitalization so onerous on the banks, no one is willing even if the rates are low, via the government like jonas said. even if the rates are low, they're the not willing to take the risk. they need to let the banks be more risky in who they approve. >> and the program is a fail yurks only people who don't need their payments down are getting the payments down on the low rates, the opposite solution. >> brenda: sorry, got to wrap it up and thanks to stephen, for joining us, well, it's been called a hidden middle class tax hike, but it's not from the government. how you can fight back against it next. f!

>> predictions and gary b is on the hot seat. >> brenda, we talked about the low mortgage ratesen i think they helped the housing industry. toll brothers in particular, up 20% in the next 12 months.

>> todd, bull or bear? >> bear, i hate it. nobody is going to end up buying a toll brother house. >> brenda: jonas, your prediction. >> and stress is the leading cause of people not being at work. xanax, generic maker and-- >> i'm so stressed out. gary b, bull or bear. >> i'm not stressed out, but i am he' bearish on the stock. >> brenda: stephen, your prediction. >> costco, and get a gallon of milk less than three bucks. >> brenda: bull or bear. >> the new frickin' netflix, don't raise prices now. >> brenda: bull or bear. >> and i.t. in florida is big catalyst and. >> brenda: bull or bear. >> ten years ago i would have been a bear, the casino game on wall street is over. >> you're not-- >> telling you what, there is