the same week we had the hushing. >> alisyn: mart tina mcbride will be here and interesting stuff on there. >> dave: we will be back on the after the show show, check us out, "fox & friends".com. we'll see you back tomorrow morning. 6 a.m. >> dave: in pajamas? >> so, what's the difference between these guys and these guys? would you be surprised if i said not much? yes, well, anti-wall street protesters demand more handouts for themselves. wall street investors rallying on reports of more government bailouts and it's not the first time we've seen stocks soar when lawmakers intervene. what's going on here? could wall street itself be doing more damage to the free markets than the anti-freeway market protesters? hi, everyone, i'm brenda buttner, this is bulls and bears. let's get right to it. here they are, bulls and bears

this week, gary b smith, tobin smith. jonas max ferris and the economic policy for welcome to everybody. toby, wall street itself is more anti-capitalism than the occupy wall street protesters? >> well, of course it is. the business model of wall street has grown into a bailout. it's grown into, they call it the green, if things got bad the fed or the government was going to be there to back them up and then as we moved this business, after the financial crisis, we went from having sort of ten banks having the money to six banks having the money and the concept behind that was it all six, hit the fans the same time then the government would be there. that's the business model and anti-capital lists. >> well, gary b. what wrong with wall street wants returns anyway it can get them? >> the problem with that is, think about '08 when they made a lot of money and it was

terrific and free market and when they lost the money, it's wa, wa, please help me out and save us. they're anti-capitalists whatever you want to call it. the bottom line, i cannot differentiate between protesters and them at this point in time. and that they just make no sense and we're back at square one as usual. >> what do you think? >> well, i think the occupy wall street protesters actually have a legitimate beef. you've got the wall street investment class that wants the best of all worlds. they demand certainty and yet, they also demand that they reap the rewards that you should only get when you take great risks and they absolutely want government to stay out of their business he when profits are soaring, but plead for taxpayer funded bailouts as soon as the system collapses. and it's fundamentally wrong that they want to rig the game so that heads he they win and tails, we all lose. >> what do you say to that.

>> i agree with most, says, occupy wall street is a little different and they want a great game, also, they want a standard minimum wage of they want all of the debt eliminated and an unfair playing field, also. and the bigger point is, yes, i agree with the point that toby came in and christian that wall street wants a stacked deck. you had a moseying up to the tarp bailout man a company like american express, is not more than a few weeks, all of a sudden became a bank and got 3.4 billion dollars out of the total 700 billion dollars. now, yes, some of the wall street firms were more or less strong armed, but let's taste it, everyone was there, lobbyists hired and everyone want today get the free money because that's the, you know, that's the currency of wall street. that's their, their bill of goods, if you will that he

they use. and no money and no downside. >> hold on, i want jonas in here. some bailouts are not a bad thing. >> i don't think they would qualify as bailouts. i think, giving money to banks when they're in trouble. as american as apple pie. >> what pie are you talking about? >> it goes back before the federal reserve when they had bank panics in the 1900's and people get together. and because banking is not like bailing out an auto company. banking industry is part and parcel of the capitalist system and you want the investment banking, higher risk loans and occasionally that doesn't work and they all will collapse. >> and jonas, hold on, hold on, let him finish. >> unlike if coffee shops go out of business and when the banks, certain-- psychological run on the bank and they don't believe the money is safe and they won't make loans. so. >> that's even more serious because the banks are supposed

to be the stewards of all of this deposited money. the fun part is watching the people say no, no, we don't need it. aen please give it to us and the profits going forward, anybody who wants a handout is going to have. anybody who says they're capitalists all of a sudden are anti-capitalists that they need help and set the stage for the future because everybody, is look, getting money. >> lets me ask you about the future. if government actually does get out of the way, will the economy recover and will the markets actually go up? we've seen the markets go like this, and do you think that the markets will go up if the government does finally get out of the way, toby? >> well, let's separate the economy from banks. because, capitalism, industrial companies are not in a situation. the banks are screwed up because they took so many losses and losses to give up. what we should do is absolutely, get the bad stuff

off the books and that will get the bottom. >> and industry more and look just this week, and it looks like these european governments are going to take care of that, and take over one of the banks this week and the stock market improves globally and see it here, we are on the-- >> but the stock market is it-- >> and let's go back to the banking system in the market. and qe1 was announced, excuse me, march of '09. >> hold on. >> and what tarp almost didn't go through. what happened to the banks and stock market-- >> wait a minute, you're way smarter than me, but we know that qe1 is stimulus, essentially. correct. >> it's printing money. >> printing money. >> gary b? >> well, first of all, to jonas' point, we've let plenty of banks fail. and washington mutual and indy mack, na the whole system does

not-- >> the world did not end. >> number two, i think that stimulus and propping up we've seen, yes, the stock market is going up, but it's a really kind of an unfair reaction, it will go up and then it will come down as we find out we have weaker and weaker players this, supported by the government to an i bigger and bigger expense. and eventually the whole world is greece and the taxpayers, ones that can pay taxes to prop up the entities that should rightfully fail. let me ask you, go ahead. >> the only thing that's really going to get us towards real recovery is he when the investor class has a real change in attitude and purpose. when it gets back to taking risks. you know, typically when you have a deep recession, you have an increase in entrepreneurial activity and we haven't seen that in this recession and people are seeking to have government funded bailouts provide the cushion for them to continue to make profits. >> well. >> that change is not going to

come from government doing or not doing anything, and it's going to come from investors who say once again the real reward is coming from great risks and starting up new businesses and students-- >> and the small business, the small business guy is not looking for the government to socialize risk and private profits and that's clearly what happened on wall street. and having job starts for a variety of reasons, and it ain't because people are waiting looking for a bailout. >> and small business don't want small businesses to government loanback program and they don't want the government to lend them money money and back stop. >> they want their own money. they want actual risk capital. >> they do not want the financial services, without government help during a crisis. >> knowing you're getting guarantees and moi and everything is going to be taken care of you're not doing the job you're supposed to be doing and taking untoward risk and-- >> okay, that's got fob the last word. >> aen successful job creators

now warning that protesters may make them bolt. will the jobs bolt with them? cavuto's gang ready to give the protesters a jolt of reality. that's at the bottom of the hour, but, up first, right here. herman cain still surging in the polls and he calls to trash our entire tax system. is he surging because americans think that's how to get our economy working again? . or creates another laptop bag or hires another employee, it's not just good for business. it's good for the entire community. at bank of america, we know the impact that local businesses have on communities. that's why we extended $7.8 billion to small businesses across the country so far this year. because the more we help them, the more we help make opportunity possible. you noticed! these clothes are too big, so i'm donating them.

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>> live from america's news headquarters, i'm kelly wright. anti-wall street protests spreading across america are going worldwide today in what is being called an international day of action. and hundreds of people gathering in cities from japan and south korea to australia. denouncing corporate greed and inequality. new reports right now demonstrations in rome are turning violent. today in new york, a march is

planned in times square and several banks and organizers hope to see demonstration ins 951 cities around the world. a mystery donor now offering $100,000 reward for the safe return of missing baby lisa irwin in missouri. this accord to go a new york security consultant who says that the donor hired him to get involved in the case and the 11th month old has been missing nearly two weeks now and her parents say she was snatched from her crib overnight and so far no suspects in the case. >> herman cain now number one, as he talks his 9-9-9 plan. and ditches the tax code. he's taken heat how he wants to replace it. gary b. you say he's right at needing to scrap it altogether getting our economy out of the ditch? >> 100%, brenda. in 1913, the tax code was all of 400 pages and now it's over

71,000 pages. we have over a million people in this country dedicated just to analyzing the tax code, litigating it, and arguing it. and accounting for it. and i mean, it is a whole industry and to have the tax code that's too complex, everyone agrees it's discriminatory, it's unfair, it's impenetrable. if you like herman cain's plan or not. if you want to stimulate the economy, the biggest thing you can do it simplify the tax code because the tax code is the root of everything in the country. >> brenda: tell us how you really feel. gary k. >> scrap it, scrap it, scrap it. a long time coming and herman cain is resonating because of the word simple. it's a simple plan. i'm not saying it works, but as gary said, 70,000 pages, companies and individuals spends hundreds of millions of dollars.

>> billions. >> just avoiding taxes. forget about paying taxes. enough is enough. this has been created by the government and complicated nobody understands it. and it's tiresome. get rid of it. >> brenda: christian, what are you, so sure about this? >> well, i'm not. as much as i agree that the tax system is unnecessarily complex and certainly not as fair as efficient as i would like it, scrapping the whole thing is just not practical. you look at our political system, it's incredibly broke been and no one is suggest that go we scrap the constitution. we need to take the necessary steps, you know, the necessary flaws, the flaws that we know in the tax code and address them right away and for me, the single greatest thing that you could do is to start advertising the tax expenditures and the tax code on various deductions and credits. if we public size those, the same way we did government spending, you create the necessary public outcry to change the tax code in a hurry. >> hold on. jonas, you think that there would be, it would be do a

disservice, as a country if we were to change it just right overnight? >> it definitely would, and put a million tax professionals out of work and we already have 9 point whatever unemployment. the real problem isn't the current system. people made plans with million tax professionals and long-term plans that span over a decade. depreciation and buying a house and expecting the mortgage to be deductible. if you change that overnight that's so patently ridiculous it would send millions into bankruptcy. >> brenda: hold on, hold on. >> you shouldn't scrap it completely. to go to a system without this many deductions realistically is a decade plan of gradual change that people know. so they can plan out of the plans they made based on the ridiculous system they made now. other than that is insanity. >> the question is that is this what the people are responding to as a way to kick start the economy. >> but they don't know the system. >> here is my point, first of off, we need to jump start. we had a 30-year binge.

we've had 30 years of problems built up and they blew up. if you want to get growth back in the country. usually after the big financial blowouts, it takes 10 to 15 years and we don't have 10 to 15 years and one of the ways gary said to act as a catalyst and enact whatever this is going to be, but it has to be simple and you can phase it. and you're going to phase it, you're not going to do it one day, but the fact you could change it and people make plans for it would unleash cash amount. the idea of reducing the cost of capital in the the united states creates investment and believe it or not, shirley temple, more capital and more investment the that's where jobs come from. >> there's tons of capital, in the economy. that's not the driving issue. that capital is being idled, it's sitting on the sidelines and it's not working the way it ought to. >> and it's not sitting in banks or in investors. and they lend money against assets. real money, real asset at risk money is too expensive for nl people and for them to gather and it's not done officially.

>> dennis. >> you're getting off the topic, of course a bad system that should change and when you're talking about scrapping it. the public doesn't understand how tax planning happens at a corporate level and they don't understand the ramifications. >> three to five to ten year plan to change that. >> and i don't have to do heart surgery so i just-- >> quiet! all right. i've got to go. thanks, guys. the blackberry blackout. not only leaving the company with a black eye. some here says it could help put it out of business and these apple iphone lines may just see it. at adt, we get financing from ge capital.

but they also go beyond banki. we installed a ge fleet monitoring system. it tracks every vehicle in their fleet. it cuts fuel use. koch: it enhances customer service. it's pretty amazing when people who loan you money also show you how to save it. not just money, knowledge. it's so much information, it's like i'm right there in every van in the entire fleet. good day overall. yeah, i'good. come on in. let's go. wow, this is fantastic. ge capital. they're not just bankers. we're builders. they helped build our business. >> coming up from blackberry to black and blueberry. should they

>> blackberry customers lashing out after a worldwide outage left millions out of luck this week. and some agreed it took longer than nasa to figure out apollo's 13 problems miles above earth, four decades ago. i'm a blackberry customer and this is what you i say. and dpar k, will this have a hole in its existence. >> the old line it takes years to build up your reputation and a couple of minutes to lose it. it is right now. and listen, they didn't take care of the customers.

they're yelling, bad advertising and they've been croaked because of the iphone and the android. and it's an 8th and 9th inning and mariano rivera is up right now. >> gary b. what do you think? >> i agree. two strikes. this came at the worst possible time and federal. they're probably going out of business, it's not an iphone. this on top of it. the way they address it, beta max and a blackberry, brenda, i think you want to trade it in for an iphone. >> brenda: christian, do you think they can survive. >> i think they can. nobody remembers apple's antenna issues with the iphone 4 when they came out and loyal customers a $2 rubber sleeve and everybody forgot about it. >> what did you read my mind? >> sorry, but blackberry had 70 million loyal customers they don't call it the crack berry for nothing. >> not for long. >> this will be forgotten fairly quickly.

>> brenda: jonas, black and blueberry. >> five years ago, they were one of the leading industries, unfortunately how quickly you can die in this business, and they're dying anyway, this is the only area of strength. oh, it's rock solid, carpet i.t. grade can't say that about the android and now that's got holes away and unfortunately, nothing you can do about it. >> brenda: toby. >> they are he' going out of business for all the reasons you said, but also going out of business because they're now selling the less expensive stuff. they have the high end, that's getting killed by iphones and 70 million customers many are in india and other parts of the world, buying the basic blackberry subsidized and they're not a corporate user when they get a chance to upgrade they'll upgrade to an ipad and the corporate looks into apple. this is a slow death and sort of put a 2 by 4 in their forehead. >> brenda: you have one, don't

you. >> i have one and i have multiple things, but people that dependent on it felt like they were helpless and when you're helpless you say i'm never going to be there again and that's the behavior. >> maybe the government should bail them out? >> and all of these jobs, right. >> brenda: now, that would be-- >> guaranteed. >> brenda: capitalism at work. okay. all right. guys, thanks so much. and thanks to christian, it was nice to have you. two presidential hopefuls, two jobs plans and two stocks ready to profit because of it. ♪

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wib should be good for the energy, and so vanguard etf should do well. >> brenda: gary b. do you like that. >> no, it's gone straight up the last ten days or so, wait for a pullback before you buy it. >> brenda: gary k. your prediction. >> don't worry about the debit card business, master card is 20, 25% the nexxis months and held up well in the bear market recently. >> brenda: jonas, what do you think of his prediction. >> i do not care for it. (laughter) >> what is that a college entrance exam? it's lousy, stupid, i don't care for it. >> brenda: the debate? >> and let me show you how to do this. hang on. >> brenda: and gary b, your prediction. >> it's like jonas was turning down a plate of hors d'oeuvres, no, thank you, i'd rather pass. (laughter) >> anyway, brenda, report out. health