what she'll be up to this weekend because it has to do with empowering young women to have more self-esteem with the help of dove. >> brian: i'm looking for a free cd. >> steve: see you tomorrow, everybody. alert, if you're just waking up there is breaking news out of lib yarks reports that moammar qaddafi has been captured or possibly killed. at the moment we cannot confirm the status of the former dick at that timor, and we cannot confirm where he is or where his body might be. a lot of open questions right now, as we move to this story. there morning, it's breaking news on "america's newsroom". martha, good morning to you. martha: about grng -- good morning, good morning, bill generic morning, everybody. i'm martha maccallum. working on our sources, talking to people at the white house, the state department and overseas, we're already getting video that looks like this from libya: incredible sounds from the streets, we saw people on their knees, praying moments

ago, the rebel fighters celebrating the demise of the dick at that timor that ruled with an iron fist over these people for 42 years. bill: we start to start with tripoli, david piper has been there for six weeks, reporting on all the developments and the latest developments now. david. >> reporter: well, bill, from what we're hearing from the information minister, from the national transitional council, he's going on the record to say qaddafi is dead, and libyan tv is now broadcasting a picture of someone who looks like qaddafi, blooded. the report we've got over the past hour suggest from different sources that he was wounded during the fight for sirte, his home town which has now fallen this morning and a convoy was leaving, perhaps 100 vehicles, trying to escape the city, and there are reports that there was a nato strike on that convoy, and some revolutionaries on the ground say that he was wounded or perhaps now even

killed in that nato air strike, but of course, that is unconfirmed. we're also hearing reports that they even found qaddafi in a hole, wounded, so at the moment, it's very difficult to find out if qaddafi is dead, but we are trying to find out, bill. back to you. bill: david, for the sake of this discussion, knowing what we cannot confirm, if qaddafi is dead, what has this transition been like, what is the next government shaping up to be in libya, who rules it and what do they look like? >> well, there's a lot of competing forces here. we've got people from misurata, which was really destroyed, parts of it, by the fighting there, they want a voice in the government, the islamists want a voice, benghazi, the people there, they have got a voice, many people leading that transitional council, but that is democracy. these people will fight for their position and how is how a new libya will be forward and the people

around me want to hear it and they have wanted to hear that qaddafi is dead, and they've been celebrating now for over an hour here in tripoli, bill. bill: david, secretary of state hillary clinton was in tripoli two days ago. our own wendell goler was asking her if she could confirm reports, she could not. she said if it is true a big sigh of relief to the libyan people and told qaddafi that libya would wage a war with libyan money. she was there two days a. what did she say and what was the purpose of that trip now? >> reporter: well, secretary of state clinton, she came here to support the libyan people and the authorities here are pushing towards democracy. she said at the time she hoped that qaddafi will be the captured -- will be either captured or killed. it seems one of the two has happened today. and it's really a game changer here in libya now. people have been waiting for this moment, because there have been reports that

qaddafi was brewing up some kind of rebellion down south, recruiting mercenaries, and if he's been captured or killed it could change everything on the ground, bill. bill: david piper, thank you. we're listening to the gunfire in the background in tripoli, david piper is reporting from a building or hotel nearby all of that, but we expect to get many more images like this throughout the morning and when they arrive in "america's newsroom". we'll pass them to you first. march mabig developments and a little context on how we got to this point. protests began in february and they quickly spread, a week later qaddafi said he would fight, quote, to his last drop of blood, so by february 25th, the rebel forces controlled the majority of the key cities in libya. april 30th, calf dea -- qaddafi's youngest son and three grandchildren were killed in a nato strike. bill: by mid august, rebel

forces advancing on the city, reports that qaddafi may have left that town, and reports that qaddafi son had been killed, and a meeting in paris about how to reshape the focus and future for libya. that brings us now to the reports of today that qaddafi has been captured or killed. we'll work on that throughout the morning. martha: let's take a look at moammar qaddafi's reign. he was the longer serving leader in africa and the arab world, he seized power during a bloodless coup in 1969 at the age of 27 years old, after hatching plans to topple the monarchy while he was at military college. he is linked with notorious attacks against americans, including most pointedly the 1986 bombing of a disco in berlin and of course, the bombing of the pan am flight 103 over lockerbie, scotland in 1988. bill: that bombing in berlin led ronald reagan to order

air strikes on various targets in tripoli and benghazi and libya. this is our understanding now. going back to february of this past year, benghazi was always where the rebel strong hold originated, that's where the tribe from the east came and started pushing west here on our map behind. here's the capitol of tripoli over here. much of this war was confined to the northern part of the country, with the rebels coming from the east, and the government forces coming from the west. you see the town of sirte right here, a bit of break-up in our signal. all right, we'll go back to the map on sirte, please. sirte is qaddafi's home town, it's where he was born and where we believe he was captured earlier today. still wait to go confirm all those reports but you see sirte in the gulf area of the northern part of libya. now advance it one time. think about what has happened in this region over the past year. you know, the future for libya is jirn based on reports from today, egypt is

still up in the air, you had issues in saudi arabia that were tampered down, oman was an issue, yemen has fired you and we still don't know what's happening inside syria. this entire region could very well be known as the year that the dictators went down, what kind of a future does it hold, what kind of government takes place here, what kind of policy, how does that affect the u.s. policy in the middle east, these are wide open questions we'll go through throughout the morning as we bring in some terrific guests over the next two hours. martha. martha: bill, thank you. as you know, the u.s. military played a crucial role in bringing about the beginning of the end of qaddafi's regime. jennifer griffin has been following this all along for us, they joins me live from the pentagon. what is the word from the pentagon this morning on all of this, jennifer? >> reporter: martha, neither u.s. defense officials or intelligence officials at this point can confirm that qaddafi has been either captured or killed but we can confirm from nato officials that nato war planes did drop bombs on two vehicles that were loyal to qaddafi

forces, they were moving around sirte at the time. it's not clear whether qaddafi was in that convoy or whether it was a nato air strike that, in fact, may have, if he did dry -- if he did die, kill him. there are conflicting reports from the ntc, the libyan rebel opposition group, the current government, they are saying -- some reports suggest he was shot as he was trying to flee, that he was shot both in legs, as well as in the head. those were initial reports, but then we heard that nato war planes may have had something to do with it. so the only thing we can confirm at this moment is that nato did strike on two vehicles that were loyal to qaddafi forces. the question is whether qaddafi was in those vehicles. martha: good question. there's been a lot of different people involved in this hunt for qaddafi, and there was one report early this morning that he was found in a hole, very similar to the images that we remember of saddam hussein, when he was finally snuffed out of that rabbit

hole situation in iraq. you know, so i guess it's going to be a little while, jennifer, before all these pieces get put together and we have a clear picture of exactly how all of this laid out today. >> reporter: well, because we don't have any troops, nato doesn't have any troops, the u.s. doesn't have any forces on the ground, it's difficult to get confirmation. part of the confusion may be because we've also heard from commanders on the ground that he was found in a ditch, perhaps his vehicle was struck, and then the body was found in a ditch. so that's why these initial snippets of reports from the rebels on the ground, that's why it could be so confusing. but u.s. defense officials and intelligence officials right now don't have any confirmation either way. martha: jennifer, we thank you very much. it is a busy morning, and we're going to stay on top this story as we get more details on how all of this went down and also on the military role of the united states in the early stages of all this. we'll get more on that. bill: you remember back in december 2003 it should be a reminder after the invasion of iraq and the war started

there, it was qaddafi who called on these western leaders to tripoli and said i'm going to give up my weapons of mass destruction, and that was in 2003, then you have the turning over of megrahi, who many people thought was responsible and still think to this day, for the bombing of pan am flight 103n a moment here, you heard david piper nine minutes a. david piper is saying that the spokesperson for the transitional national council, which is the de facto government in libya today, reporting that qaddafi is dead. we're going to bring the better, john bolton, to answer the question about where this crawnd goes next, right after this.

martha: we're still waiting on confirmation from the highest levels of our government on the death of moammar qaddafi but here is the picture of now what is

said to be dead libyan leader moammar qaddafi. as you can see, it's a bit distant in terms of his face and closeup of this picture, it looks like a fairly chaotic scene. this came in from afp this, photo, and it is being circulated widely at this hour. you remember the whole discussion going back to bin laden and whether or not we would see pictures of his dead body. these are the pictures that are now being attributed to that -- to his death. we're going to wait to see if we get confirmation from the u.s. government on his death and the whole details of this story, tbhaw is the picture you're going to see a lot of throughout the course of today. it will be very closely anlied. bill: let's bring in former ambassador to the u.n., john bolton, also a fox news contributor. your reaction to the news of the hour. >> i think it's entirely appropriate that qaddafi was killed this way, but as symbolically important as it is, many of the big issues facing libya remain. for example, even though he won't be tried in libya or

the hague, his son, heir apparent, saif qaddafi and others, they've well been captured as part of the escape, so that remains and remains to be seen how qaddafi's followers in libya will respond now that some say he's been made a martyr, so this is certainly not the end of the struggle. it's the end of qaddafi. bill: what's the involvement of libya on -- what's the involvement of the u.s. on the ground there? >> i think we have limited resources at the moment. presumably when the embassy is up and running full speed, we'll have a lot more, but a lot depends, for example, on the circumstances of qaddafi's death, in fact, was he killed by a nato air strike or was he killed in a firefight with other libyans. we're not in a position to know that, and i'm afraid we're not in as good a position we should be to influence the political struggle that's unfolding now in the country. bill: just to clarify that, the spokesperson for this transitional council is saying he was shot in both

legs and he was shot in the head. that's what he's telling david piper on the ground in tripoli. does that change your analysis? >> i don't believe anybody at this point, frankly. i think we need to see what forensics and a little bit calmer time reveal. but i do think it's going to be important one way or the other, whatever the facts turn out to be. bill: it's a fave assumption this war is not won by rebels without nato involvement, without droning operated by the united states or given or operated by the u.s. >> no, absolutely, and i think that's one of the real questions for u.s. policymakers going forward. if we had acted swiftly and decisively at the beginning of this thing, instead of having it drag out for six months, with a much higher toll in civilian deaths, we might have shattered qaddafi's government near the beginning of the conflict and brought it to a resolution sooner. i think that's a real issue. bill: there are reports about six -- there were reports about six months ago about the number of foreign fighters in the areas of afghanistan and in the tribal region of pakistan,

and how they come from the northeastern corner of libya. are you aware of those reports, ambassador? >> right, and i think that's one of the legitimate questions and concerns we have about the success of the -- successor regime, which is in the process of formation. i'm worried that over the past six months we have not done enough to work toward empowering prowestern, prorepresentative government leaders to shape the post-qaddafi regime, and it's very much up in the air, what a new government in libya will look like. bill: what is strike to go me is that all these rebellions, call them revolutions, the handing over of power, the downing of these dictators throughout the middle east, they were all contained within the borders of their respective countries. they did not spill out into other areas. it was almost like all politics is local yet again, and in very few countries did you see demonstrators blaming israel or blaming the united states. what does that tell you? >> well, i think it's not

entirely clear that there wasn't cross-border assistance from iran, financially, for example, in some case, in egypt, from al-qaeda elsewhere, but i do think by in large, the opposition to these authoritarian figures was from local populations who had plenty of grounds to be opposed. the real issue, then, is not the opposition to the authoritarian regimes but what comes after them, and i think there, we're going to see unfold really, again on a case by case basis, whether they will move toward representative government or whether they will simply replace one authoritarian regime with another. bill: in december '03, did you believe him when he said he was giving up his weapons of mass destruction? >> well, i think we were satisfied in early '04 that, in fact, we had boxed up his nuclear weapons program and shipped it to oak ridge, tennessee. i don't know that we have any evidence of any remaining nuclear weapons program. i don't think there are chemical weapons in libya.

there's a chemical agent but it's not weaponized, you'd have to pour it out of a bottle on your head to use it as a weapon. what i'm moreered -- more worried about is the man pad, the portable air defense systems and rockets that were in the tens of thousands coorksd to go reports that have begun to disappear outside of libya. that is very troubling. bill: and how do you obtain verification of that? if at all? >> well, i think that's one disadvantage to not being on the ground there, and for the rebels, not having secured the locations where those man pads and other rockets were found. i think that ought to be a very urgent priority. i don't know that we can get back what's already escaped. but to the extent that those weapons are still there, they need to be secured and accounted for, just as soon as possible. bill: one more, sir, for you : megrahi, who is now back in libya, we assume he's in tripoli, perhaps he's on his death bed, who can really say, would that be a priority in trying to apprehend him again? >> well, i think it should

be for the united states. you know, he was released by the scots and brits in august 2009 because he only had a few month toss live and he's still cranking along. i think it was a travesty for the british and the scotch to release him, and i think we need to bring him back. i don't know whether the transitional national council is going to allow that to happen or not but i think that's a test to their bona fide myself. bill: thank you, this is still unfolding out of tripoli, trying to confirm this out of sirte as well. as we move forward, your opinion is greatly appreciated mr. ambassador. >> many thanks. bill: john bolton on the line by way of washington. more on that momentarily. martha: we've got a fox news alert, this just coming in, nato has just released a statement on the strike in libya this morning, saying around # 30:00 local name, two nato aircraft struck two proqaddafi vehicles as part of a larger group, saying these vehicles were conducting military operations and they were a clear threat to civilians.

more on this breaking news and how all of these pieces fit together today that have led to the death of moammar qaddafi. we'll be right back.

bill: all right. there is breaking news out of libya, the transitional government in tripoli reports that moammar qaddafi is dead. and this is what they say is a photo of a dead dictator. qaddafi took power in 1969. he has ruled that country for 42 years. he's been on the run since february of this year. born in the coastal town of sirte, reports say that he was found there and now reports that he was killed there. moammar qaddafi, that picture on your screen. martha. martha: all right, thank you

bill. so there's breaking news, of course, this morning and we are all over it for you, the reports out of libya that moammar qaddafi has been captured or killed. we just showed you the picture that is attribute to being a death photo in this situation. we're waiting for the final confirmation on that to come from our intelligence sources here in the united states. let's bring in rick leventhal who has extensive experience covering this story for us on the ground in libya. spent a lot of time with the rebels there. is this tape that we can play now, rick? all right, those are just some images of you on the ground rick. welcome. right off the bat, your thoughts on what's unraveling. >> it's a dramatic development, obviously, and this is what the rebels or revolutionaries have been focused on since this started. they were singularly focused on capturing or killing car daie -- cadoofie, that's what they wanted, freedom and democracy like we enjoy and they were willing to lose their lives to pursue it. martha: you made an interesting point, having

been on the force necessary afghanistan and iraq, where our forces have been on the ground, trying to train local forces to empower them, to take leadership in their own country, you say this is very different. >> well, one of the biggest concerns we heard off the record from the people of the military who were training soldiers in iraq and afghanistan was their level of commitment, were they willing to fight when the stuff hit the fan and in many cases they said these guys wouldn't, they would turn and run and yet in libya, these revolutionaries, these rebels were absolutely willing to fight, they were shop owners and school teachers who had never fired a weapon before, who learned how to shoot guns, trained in camps, learned hand to hand combat, were willing to turn their pickup trucks at home into gun trucks, welding weapons into the beds of these truck, putting armour on them and driving right to the front and staying up there, watching their friends and neighbors die, willing to stick in there and fight for freedom, and that's what was most impressive to us. martha: initially t. seemed like a revolution in terms of what you're speaking of,

and then we had that sort of back and forth, from the lines, from misurata to benghazi, it became a civil war on the ground and both sides pushing back. now that you've got by all -- from every word that we're hearing this morning, qaddafi gone, what happened with that part of this whole story? >> reporter: well, i can tell you that as the people were going forward to fight, as the rebels were moving forward to fight out of their cities and towns, their friends and neighbors were backfilling their spots, they would keep the streets clean, direct traffic, they would keep the power on as people who were taking care of those things were moving forward to join the fight. so in that sense it looked clear to me these people were able to control their own country, they were okay with not having a fixed government in place at that point because they could run things on their own without their leader. and i think that they are -- they have what it takes to make it work. of course, we don't know yet, but for the most part these people seemed honest, intelligent, committed, and

believed in their cause. they just want what we have. martha: i know you heard so many stories from these people, and i remember you interviewing some of them on the ground about what has happened in their own lives, their families, why their passion for this overthrow was so intense. >> yeah, well, they lived under this man's thumb for 414 years, they told stories of relatives and neighbors who had been killed or captured or imprisoned because they spoke out against qaddafi, and that was why they hated him so much and wanted him out. you know, one of the things we saw in misurata with this poster everywhere was qaddafi's face on a little baby's body but wrapped in ammo belts and holding weapons and clearly, they were trying to say he's a baby, he's a kid, he's spoiled, and he needs to go. martha: and it looks like that's what happened. rick, thank you very much. >> sure. martha: for being with us today. you're a great reporter on the ground that helped all of us have a better understanding of what was going on. thank you for that as well. >> thank you. bill: at moment we're awaiting statements from the white house, waiting on

statements from the department of state. we get this from nato, nato aircraft saying it hit two pro qaddafi forces military vehicles which were part of a larger group, maneuvering around the town of sirte. the armed vehicle, nato said, were conducting military operations, presented a clear threat to civilians, that from nato. whether that has anything to do about whether or not this was in the air where qaddafi was captured or found, we do not know. we will find out more from the pentagon, department of state, and the white house as we get it here on "america's newsroom". breaking news out of tripoli. back in a moment after this.

bill: back to our breaking news, a spokesperson for the transitional government in libya telling fox news that moammar qaddafi is dead, also insisting that he took two bullets to the legs, one bullet to the head, none of this has been independently confirmed, worry working on that through source necessary tripoli andle the town of sirte where we're told this happened. screen left is the video we're getting in from the streets of tripoli, where the rebel commanders and some of the rebel fighters have now taken to the street in celebration. sometimes there is gunfire there, sometimes shouting in the background. we will be back in touch with david piper in a moment. wendell goler is traveling with the secretary of state, hillary clinton, we will talk to wendell a bit later this morning, waiting for the moment from a statement from the white house or the department of state, or more from the pentagon, pending

their own confirmation. so all that now on the table at 9:33 here in new york. martha. martha: for more on these development, huge developments this morning, we want to bring in waleed faris, middle east terrorism analyst and author of the coming revolution and struggle for freedom in the middle east, wally, good morning, can you hear me okay? >> i can now. martha: your impressions of what we're watching on the streets of libya this morning. >> we are watching the end of a major chapter in the history of the middle east. qaddafi came to power in '69, i was 12 years old when that happened. now, after all these decades of bloody involvement, he repressed his own people and he was involved in international terrorism, including against americans, the pan am tragedy, against the french, against our europeans, he was involved in the continent of after cash now this is over, his regime is over, but his remnants probably will continue at some point in time to play the role of

insurgency, because a lot of weapons are still abawntd in tripoli and in of course libya as a whole. the other challenge is going to be the behavior of the new government, the now transitional council will have to go quickly towards the path of democracy. will that be successful, that's the challenge ahead. martha: that's the bigger picture for libya this morning. we're getting more details about the actual event and we can't confirm these as of right now because there's a lot of moving parts in this story. but i want to read, aptn has an eyewitness account, according to their reporting of qaddafi and where he was shot and it says that he was shot and then they took off his shoe and hit him with it, after he was killed. they also go into details about who they believe was with them, a libyan defense minister, unclear of his condition now. your thoughts on the description of that scene. >> well, that is going to be very important details or

series of details. it means that the transitional national council gave or didn't give instructions to keep him alive for the trial. that is going to be very important, the fact that he was shot in the leg, then shot in the head after having confirmed that he was captured means that the decision was that there will be no qaddafi in the courts and here the question is why. maybe because qaddafi knows a lot of things, including about the insurgency, including about the international involvement everywhere. many in libya would have liked to have seen qaddafi tried for the crimes he committed but it seems that now the decision was that he would not see a tribunal. martha: that's very interesting. and i don't know if we're ever going to know the answer to that question, as to whether or not these people who actually killed him in the end, and we also have the reports of the nato strike on two vehicles, so we don't know if there's a connection between those two events yet. i would imagine those details will be ironed out in the coming hours. but whether or not they wanted him dead, and when

you look at hosni mubarek on trial and whether -- he said he was going to go out with his last drop of blood, you know. he may have put himself in a position where they had no choice but to shoot him. >> well, we don't know. we're going to get the information at some point in time. but just with the information that we know, we could do some projections. he was shot in the leg, so he was disabled. then he was shot in the head, after being hit according to the report. we don't know. with shoes on his body. so it seems that the unit that captured him did not want him to be alive for a tribunal procedure. these are the facts we can read from the reports we have, but we need to get more information. martha: before i let you go walid, your biggest concern for libya this morning. >> the biggest concern is what comes next, the next chapter, that the transitional national council will move quickly towards, first, civilization, there will be no revenge against those who have been defeated because that would be the fuel for the next insurgency. most importantly, for us,

that the weapons that qaddafi had, huge amount of weapons, will be put under surveillance and control, and they would not go to other insurgents, to rebels and to possibly al-qaeda, and three, that the libyans would be given a chance to real freedom and democracy and the national transitional council will not become another terrorist regime under the militia. martha: walid, thank you for being with u. great to get your insights on all of this today, we'll see you soon, thank you. bill there is so much reaction on this story and more that's happening today that's relevant. in a moment, we'll talk to kevin mccarthy, republican leader in the house. also there is breaking news here at home on the jobs front and the economy. we'll talk to him about that, when the news continues, and also online, foxnews.com, you can go there now, there are full details, while we're in the commercial break, then we're back in three minutes. it appears at the moment that moammar qaddafi is, indeed, dead.

bill want too continue with our breaking news out of tripoli. we're getting an indicator from the libyan ambassador to the u.k. he is also saying now that the form dictator and leader moammar qaddafi is dead. that goes along with some of the other threerg our own david piper had at 9:00 this morning, 42 minutes ago, when a spokesperson for the transitional government in tripoli told david that he was, indeed, dead as well. this is a picture that has now gone around the globe. it is viral. this is what they say is a dead moammar qaddafi, shot once in the head and once in both legs. california congressman kevin mccarthy with me now in the studio, we brought you here to talk about the economy and jobs and obviously, that will go to page two for the moment. your reaction initially to what we're seeing out of libya. >> well, i hope this is true. i mean, this is a good day, when you think about it, imagine, four decades of

this dictator, murdering and putting his thumb on top of this entire country, snag they've been fighting for a long time. bill: you think about berlin in 1986, i think with the -- about the raid that followed in tripoli and benghazi by our u.s. military, pan am ten three, 270, many of which were americans in 1988, you think about the wmd development that was happening at least until a few years ago in libya. and you think about, you look at the excitement there, but it's the excitement, you're going to feel freedom. how many family members do they know that have been murdered by this individual? four decades of it. why did it take so long, why did it have to last, and you've got that internal uprising itself where this is a good day when this is brought to justice. there is still a -- a lot of work to be done because you want to make sure this new government doesn't fall into any of the past behaviors, get the democracy they desire and it's why they rose up. bill: on that point can they define democracy today?

because don't you walk with a sense of caution and trepidation not knowing what's behind door number two? >> i do for a couple of different reasons. one, they don't know democracy so they don't know what it is and two, when you have an uprising like this, sometimes people wait in the background andmo more organized to be able to win an election and their idea, what you have with iran during their revolution and others, you get more repression in there. so what we want to look to is make sure we help them in this role, we find other countries that have gone through -- especially when you go through the east of iraq, those countries have been able to grow with democracy. bill: but in eastern europe, those governments have taken a form of democracy much like our own. >> yeah. bill: in the middle east, they've defined it in their own terms. and today, we don't know what's going to happen in tripoli. you know, there is a report, i talked to john bolton about it 30 minutes a. they did a study or foreign fighters in afghanistan and pakistan, and they found an enormously high percentage of foreign fighters coming

from towns in northern libya. how do you deal with that? >> it's difficult. because that's all they've known for so long. and you've got to make sure you work through this. i was with the czech president a month ago, and that was one of his concerns, going into the arab spring, show them the desire, if they want freedom, the way to have democracy, that it's there. one that doesn't take them back there. bill: we're going to put this on pause for a moment here, okay? we're working for more confirmation from the white house, the state department. when all that comes rolling in here we'll get back to that. but in the meantime the white house is pushing for this $35 billion jobs bill, that they say it will prevent the layoffs of teachers and police and firefighters. harry reid, senate majority leader, says the government jobs should be protected because he argues that they are on the increase, that's been disputed. republicans say that jobs plan is more of the same. it is stimulus 2. o, it means spending more money and it also means higher

taxes from the senate floor. watch this: >> it's very clear that private sector jobs are fine. it's the public sector jobs that have lost huge numbers. >> let's stop the talking points about billionaires and millionaires and let's pass legislation that's designed to pass, not to designed to fail. bill: there is the rebuttal to harry reid. since 2009 private sector jobs have declined by more than 1.5 million, total public sector jobs have declined by 600,000, federal government jobs are actually up around 30,000. i want to bring the congressman back in on all that. harry reid's office came out later in the afternoon saying he was just trying to point out a fact with job losses in the public sector. on the face of this, what do you think? >> it shows why they're so off base, it shows they don't see what's happening in this country. the idea you're going to 3r0ebg9 -- protect more government jobs, who pays for the government jobs but the private sector.

why are we hurting? it's small business that needs to get created. the other part they have, we've already done this before, a trillion dollars, when you take the interest in the stimulus, it costs 278,000 per job, it failed and they want to do it again. the country is looking for something different. instead of short term let's solve the problem long term. bill: you're in congress, but before your life in congress you were a private business other than. >> yes. twenty years old i started my first small business. the idea, if you go and you look from the end of the last recession, 2001 to the beginning of this recess, 2007, a good time in america, you look at what jobs were created, if you were a company, you had 500 employees or fewer, you added 7 million jobs, if you are a company of 500 or more, you cut a million. small business is the backbone and the interest rate is too hi. fortune is the number one person is mark zuckerberg, he started his business in a dorm room, how many does he

have today? stephen jobs, he started in a garage. bill: started in a garage. listen, this debate -- debate continues. there are moderates who don't want it. they're on record saying that. you have 13 months before an election. what will park if anything? >> look, i'm hopeful they put the politics aside, the president gets off the campaign trail, get off that bus, get back too washington, let's work together, let's be americans first, stop dividing this country, be the president to all americans. you know, this class four warfare is not going to work. what has to happen and what can pass, when we go next week, we're going to pass the 3 percent holdings, pull it back. government should not hold back the government for small business. we just pasoo passed the free trade agreement, we have jobs from energy policy that is haven't seen the light of day. let the idea win. let the debate happen. let's not pick an election. let's put people before policy. bill kevin mccarthy, thank you for your time.

let's see if the ideas go anywhere. we're hopeful. martha has more on the breaking news. martha: thank you very much. we are literally watching history unfold in real time. updates are coming into the newsroom moment by moment on the fate of moammar qaddafi. our continuing coverage of this breaking news this morning out of libya is straight ahead, including unique perspective from one of fox news' finest journalists who was on the ground in libya during the fall of tripoli. we'll be right back.

martha: all right, we're back and senator john mccain has now released a statement on moammar qaddafi, mccain says the united states, along with our european allies and arab partners must now deepen our support for the libyan people as

they work to make the next phase of their democratic revolution as successful as the fight to free their country. that just coming in from senator mcdane. -- senator mccain. we'll continue to hear from those weighing in on this momentous day. steve harrigan joins me live from monterey, mexico, but steve on on the ground in tripoli throughout some of the most dramatic stages of this battle. steve, what's your reaction to this huge news this morning? >> reporter: martha, i think a tremendous day of joy for the libyan people. and we're likely to see those emotions burst forth like we saw when tripoli fell. i think we can expect several days of heavy gunfire in the air as libyans celebrate this. i think in many peoples of minds there was this fear, qaddafi could do harm and come back in some way. one point i'd like to make amid this excitement and joy is that we've seen this before, we've seen this in

iraq when you have a megalomaniac who controls people for 40 years, just how tough a transition it is. martha: all right, we're having an audio problem, obviously with steve harrigan, we'll try to get him up an running. are you good now? >> okay. we'll try to get back to steve harrigan in a little while. he was in the middle of making a good point, which is we have seen what happened in iraq over the overthrow of saddam hussein, how difficult it is to build a form of democracy in a country, and that is the challenge that lies in front of the people of libya now. bill: we're getting a statement from john mccain. as far as i know, he's the first significant politician to put out a statement on this. and mccain is saying that the death of qaddafi marks an end of the first phase, the libyan revolution, he says while some fighting continues the libyan people have liberated their country. trish turner, our producer on the hill asked him how does he know because a lot of the reports are unconfirmed. we've had at least two

people now from the libyan transitional government, that would be the libyan ambassador to the u.k., say that qaddafi is dead, we've also had a spokesperson to this transitional government also tell our own david piper an hour ago that qaddafi is dead. that's the information that mccain is working off of, that statement. martha: there were so many times throughout this process, bill, as you well remember, that there were reports that he was surrounded, that he was in a building, that they were closing in on him and those turned out not to be the case, then you've got this picture added into the mix and maybe we can pull that up that is purported to show a dead moammar qaddafi and there it is, so our intelligence forces and the pentagon, you know, the white house is reaching out as well to try to get confirmation on his death, and just coming in from sirte, libya, which is of course the home town of moammar qaddafi and where he reportedly this morning put forth his last stand, the information minister there is saying that he was killed on thursday, when revolutionary forces overwhelmed his home town, and that's one other element to this story, is you know, sort of who will take

responsibility for his death, the nato forces we know hit a convoy this morning as well, we don't know whether there's any connection with that, but the reports are that he was shot, which makes it sounds like it was a close range assassination. bill: and to the original point out of sirte, mccain concludes a statement by saying, i'm quoting now, the united states along with our european allies and arab partners must now deepen our support for the libyan people as they work to make the next phase of their democratic revolution as successful as the fight to free their country, and that point is the biggest challenge facing that country now. waiting on a statement from hillary clinton. wendell goler is traveling with her. it appears based on sores out of libya and the capitol city of tripoli that moammar qaddafi is dead.

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and guide to understanding medicare, i can keep my own doctor and choose my own hospital. and i don't need a referral to see a specialist. as with all medicare supplement plans, and help pay for what medicare doesn't. call this toll-free number now... martha: breaking news this morning. this fox news alert as we see the celebrations in the streets of libya as we wait for confirmation on reports

that muammar qaddafi isorts dead. there is the picture circulated pure reported to be -- purported to be muammar qaddafi after he was shot in the legs and head. reports that they took off his shoe and beat him with it. this is huge day for revolutionary forces in libya. the transitional national government is taking creditor for this. this is brand new hour starting right now of "america's newsroom." good morning, everybody, i'm martha maccallum. bill: i'm bill hemmer. good morning as well. this started back in mid-february. we're eight months down the road with this conflict. fox news producers on the ground in libya getting conflicting report exactly what happened. one says qaddafi died in a trench in his hometown of sirte by gunfire. one described him in a hole. another says he was taken out by a nato airstrike. nato released a statement and there were operations taking place around the town

of sirte, his hometown where he was born. martha: let's go to ed henry at the white house. what is the latest statement out of the white house on all of this? >> reporter: martha, they're not putting anything on the record yet. they want to be careful. they want to see the forensics. they want to make sure muammar qaddafi is dead before they get ahead of that. you understand why they would be cautious. the president is sitting down with some of his top national security advisers. 10:00 a.m. he has a daily briefing. he get's latest intelligence around the world and gets the threat. goes through the whole gamut. libya will a top topic of consideration for him to go through. we need to point out the president will be sitting down with the prime minister of norway in the oval office. that is significant. norway provided six f-16s to the nato mission in libya. they were part of that mission for four months. the president will be talking to reporters about 4:10 eastern time with the prime minister of norway. that would obviously be an

opportunity potentially for the president to comment on all of this. i will note my colleague wendell goler is traveling with state secretary of state hillary clinton. earlier she told wendell that if these reports are true that he was killed or captured this would of course be terrific for libyan people. she was careful to note that the libyan people in her words have a very steep hill to climb in the days ahead. martha. martha: indeed they do. we're looking at video coming in from libya. we see, some of these forces surrounding a gun. one can imagine why they're paying so much attention to this particular machine gun. it may be that they're attributing to being one that was in potential of muammar qaddafi. we'll get more information on exactly what we're looking at here. obviously jubilation in the streets of libya and in sirte and tripoli this morning. ed, obviously when the dust settles here the president and the administration can look upon this and no doubt they will present this as a

victory for their strategy and how to go about provoking this outcome in libya? >> reporter: no doubt about it. look this president took a lot of heat several months ago when he decided he was definitely and firmly not going to put u.s. boots on the ground. that nato was going to lead this mission with the u.s. as part of it. some of our partners like britain, france and others more in the lead. he took a lot of heat for that. you heard ambassador john bolton say last hour if the u.s. had been on the ground done that months ago less civilians would have been killed. they feel inside the white house their strategy is obviously being vindicated. they had to be patient, it has taken time but in the u.s. the appears is getting outcome it always wanted. martha: ed, thank you very much. we'll look for the comment later this afternoon when the president is speaking. as ed pointed out no doubt he will be asked about the white house's reaction to this very large development coming out of libya this

morning. bill: any moment we'll hear from secretary of state hillary clinton. wendell goler is interviewing her overseas. she is in the region. has been for several days. in fact hillary clinton was in libya this week and was asked about qaddafi. she hopes he was killed or captured and appears she has gotten her wish. more what qaddafi's capture will mean for the libya, middle east and united states, stephen yates, former adviser to vice president dick cheney. good morning to you from salt lake city. thank you for your time. >> good morning, bill. bill: what does this mean? >> well obviously it is very important that qaddafi may have reached his ends of days. he is on the list of the bad men of the world very near the top in terms of destruction he wrought on his people and the region and obviously conducted terrorist attacks that affected american lives. the fate of one man is really the smaller story in all of this. it is important that the people focus on achieving peace but also some success

in their democracy there. secretary clinton alluded to the libyan people having a steep hill to climb. it is really incumbent upon america and it allies to make that hill less steep. i think there are several things we ought to do quickly on that front. bill: there are a few things you passed to our producers earlier today and i want to go through them. i think this is significant. >> sure. bill: you believe the administration has no visible plan to help win or sustain any sort of peace in libya. do you still believe that, stand by that? >> i do stand by that basically this administration has conducted an arms embargo that lengthened the duration of this armed conflict it. has still not yet unfrozen substantial funds that belong to the libyan people. hopefully now with any question of qaddafi's return if reports are correct ending today, that the fate of those fund and the substantial effort to bolster institution-building in libya will build forward. it is an important day of

progress but the administration has not laid out a durable plan to win the peace. excellent journalists in libya have pointed out post-conflict winning the peace in many ways is harder than the military operation. bill: you also point out it is actually more important today knowing the fate of qaddafi and he had lost so much power and was basically a man on the run for the past eight months that progress with this transitional government is key right now. but what about the opportunities for islamists in that country? they're waiting there. do they have a say in this? or will the transitional government shut them out, do we know? >> well, we know a good deal. the transitional national council, now the transitional government, have been more transparent that we've seen in other similar situations. each of these conflicts presents its own challenges but it's true their hands are full. they need a lot of support. there will be changes in leadership with qaddafi out of the picture in all libyan

territory under control. they have a plan over a period of months to make these transitions, elect new officials, conduct, implement a new constitution, steps like that, all important but this had stood in the way of being able to move forward in that. so in that sense the fate of qaddafi, if it is sealed today is important for libyan people moving forward. >> i want to underscore moving forward will be a difficult road to go. it will be a long one. stephen yates, thank you for your time out of salt lake. >> thank you, bill. bill: martha. martha: as we've been discussing we're looking at the end of an era the fall of ruthless dictator, muammar qaddafi. he began his reign of terror record in september 1st, 1969. he seized power from a libyan king in bloodless coup. he was 27 years old. he is longest serving leader of africa and the arab world. back in 1988270 people were killed in the pan am bombing over lockerbie, scotland. it took 15 years but libya

finally took responsibility for that attack in 2003 and officially renounced weapons of mass destruction. 2008, libya and the u.s. signed a deal for compensation for those bombings and we all know the story of al-megrahi as well and his fate. he is now in libya is one of the big questions that will be addressed in the coming days. bill: it was always a big deal in the u.s. and new york specifically when muammar qaddafi came to the united nations in september. literally the band of stuff he brought with him and the tents. john bolton was u.s. ambassador to the u.n. we talked to him about an hour ago on our program. he talked about the death of qaddafi as being symbolic and it does not mean the problems in libya are over. john bolton here. >> many of the big issues facing libya remain. for example, even though he won't be tried in libya or the hague, his son, heir apparent, sayf qaddafi may well have been captured as part of the escape. that remains and also to be

remains how qaddafi's followers in libya will respond now some might say he has been made a martyr. bill: that from john bolton last hour. pentagon, department of state, white house is all lined up now. when that breaks here we'll bring it to you. meantime martha has more on all that. martha: for more on this let's talk a little bit about the political ramifications here at home. chris stirewalt, joins me, fox news digital editor. >> good morning. martha: i touched on this with ed henry and we are going to hear from president obama around 4:00 this afternoon when he comes out. no doubt he will get questions on this. one of the big issues we need to mention we don't know who has real responsibility for the killing of muammar qaddafi if indeed he is dead. could have been forces on the ground, libyan revolutionaris. they are taking credit for it. we also know there was a nato operation. talk to me a little bit how president obama comes out in all this. >> here's the thing. this war, there has been extensive polling on it with the american electorate. this has not been a popular

conflict. this is something we also saw rebeated bipartisan opposition in conflict including the fact the president didn't consult with congress before involving united states forces in this. you saw very conservative republicans and very liberal democrats coming together saying this is not a conflict that the united states should be participating in. so the challenge for the president now is to try to use, if indeed somebody has it, the scalp of muammar qaddafi to try to say this was a worthwhile effort. this was something good for us to do. that it vindicates a foreign policy predicated not just on u.s. national security but what many in the liberal policy side a duty to protect and united states as a humanitarian obligation. martha: you're right on all those counts in terms of the way it this was interpreted but you know when you look forward i'm imagining a debate between the gop nominee whoever he turns out to be and president obama. and president obama can stand up on that stage and he can say well in terms of foreign policy you have this

triumvirate now. they're not related but you can say bin laden is gone. al-awlaki. both of them obviously taken out by special-ops forces of the united states. we don't know yet who took out muammar qaddafi. he has this triumvirate of saying qaddafi was taken down and he can argue it was triggered acts set in motion by the united states in supporting these rebels on the ground and giving them airstrikes they needed to get the strength that they had? >> absolutely. and what it does, it negates some of the hawkish attacks from republicans that you used to hear. remember that obama has in many ways embraced and expanded on the bush doctrine of trying to plant democracy in the arab world, in the muslim world. that's something that the president has embraced to a degree a lot of democrats didn't think was going to do. martha: yeah. >> that makes it hard -- that makes it easier for him to take advantage when it comes to general election time. martha: absolutely. thanks so much.

chris stirewalt joining us from washington. >> martha, while you were talking there there is videotape circulating throughout the arab world. we're getting into our fox news headquarters in new york. what appears to be a dead muammar qaddafi. this is much more a single image that you're shown here. it is all shot in daylight. in a moment we will show that to you and what this means for the arab world and what it means for the united states. there is so much to talk about this and we'll be on that. back in three minutes here on "america's newsroom.".

bill: breaking news. two things ever significance now. the associated press reporting in a bullet line, u.s. official, libyan leaders have informed u.s. that qaddafi is dead. that's one thing. also there is video circulating the arab world from al jazeera that appears to show muammar qaddafi in the moments after he was shot. we have that video in-house here in new york. we're not going to play all of it but just about 10 seconds. warning, it is graphic but

part of the reason why we're showing this because many stories in the middle east that need varyification upon death. this appears to be beyond the shadow of a death, muammar qaddafi on videotape after he was captured and shot in both legs and also, in the head. that is the image that came out about an hour ago that seems to support both the video and the still picture, both taken during day time and now out for the public to see. qaddafi is dead. martha: that is something. all right. as you know, muammar qaddafi over the course of his rein was charged with more risk crimes against his people. he has been accused ordering the kboming of pan am flight 103 that exploded in lockerbie, scotland, a few days before christmas in 1988. all 270 people aboard the plane were killed including the brother of our next guest. burt amer man joins us on

the phone from riverdale, new jersey. we spoken about this in the past. wonder what your thoughts are on this day? >> very satisfying. i never thought i would see the day that qaddafi would be eliminated. i have to praise the obama administration on new form of template for dealing with state-sponsored terrorism. his administration eliminated. bin laden and qaddafi. you do it we should never again occupy these countries. today is great day. nearly 24 years later it is last chapter for me personally. does mean my brother and 269 other people did not die in vain. martha: i can only imagine what it feels like for all of you who have waited so long and gone through some years of frustration in seeing some sort of justice or some sort of end as you say to this chapter in your lives. and i wonder what you think

about al-megrahi now and what should happen with him. >> i'm not as concerned with megrahi and i said that over the last six months the analogy i always used martha, like treating a patient with cancer. if you deal with the symptom the patient, in this particular case, the tumor was qaddafi. megrahi is just a guppy. so the world, the leaders of these third world nations that think they can use terror to intimidate us i think will have a second thought. so this is a great day for citizens across the world that believe in freedom and i do believe that we're moving in the right direction and i praise the obama administration for doing this. martha: yeah. you know, in just one last thought on megrahi because there has been talk that he should be extradited. that we should put pressure on the libyan government to see somebody continue to pay for what happened to your brother and all those others. so you, you don't care? that is not an issue for you it sound like? >> for me personally it's

not for some other family mem might be. megrahi was released because of oil. he is now free. he was tried under scottish law. he was vick convicted under scottish law and released under scottish law. if we didn't get qaddafi i most likely would be feeling differently but we went after the man that is responsible for state-sponsored terrorism. bush 43 and prime minister blair, when they welcomed qaddafi into the international community that was national and international disgrace, and to see if in this particular case, martha, i'm equal opportunity abuser of democrats and republicans. i live in great country that allows me to criticize and citizens to criticize and we don't disappear. family group formed in 1989 we forced the government to do what is right. we pressured them. our governments never come forward, boy you guys are right let's do this for you. it shows that the system

works. today we have better airport and airline security. today we have better approach to state-sponsored terrorism. today citizens overseas can be taken care of properly by their state department. this is all done in memory of our loved ones. yes for me at the end of today i can finally after nearly 24 years walk away with some peace and satisfaction. martha: i couldn't possibly say it better than you did. our thoughts are with you and all those other families, all those students from syracuse university who were on their way home from the u.k. after a semester abroad who were killed in that flight, pan am 103 over lockerbie, scotland. our thoughts are with you today. we're glad you feel sense of satisfaction. thank you so much, burt for being with us today. bill: what a remarkable man. what a remarkable day. a lot to keep track of right now. we're waiting on hillary clinton. she is being interviewed at the moment by our own-goal goal. you will hear that moments away.

wendell goler. question whether or not she can confirm this. it is not clear at the moment what she will tell goler, but you'll hear that in a moment. while we're on the air foxnews.com. there is continuing coverage of all details and history and timeline. you will find so much valuable information on our website right now. do that while we take a commercial break. we're brac in three minutes here. on "america's newsroom." meantime waiting on more statements, and you will hear about that right after this.

bill: just crossing the associated press, reading from that wire, libyan prime minister says muammar qaddafi has been killed. it crossed only moments ago. we have more of this videotape by way of al jazeera. it is graphic.

it appears to be muammar qaddafi. in the town of sirte, moments after he was apprehended and shot dead. a bullet to both legs, a bullet to the head. this goes alongwith, what we refer to as a still picture that was released about 90 minutes ago. that's the image that we first talked about. now we have the video to back it up. al jazeera with that out moments ago. hillary clinton is on the road. she is just landing we understand in pakistan. wendell goler has been with her. wendell was with her two days ago when she was in tripoli. he continues his travels with the secretary of state. here is part of his interview as pertains to libya a moment ago. >> with respect, a source confirmed to fox that muammar qaddafi has been injured and captured in sirte. what does that mean for the libyan people?

>> first, we can't confirm yet what exactly has happened but i think it would bring a sigh of relief to a lot of libyans because they expressed to me their concern when i was in tripoli two days ago that if he remained at large, even after they liberated sirte and declared that the entire country was liberated, that he would wage a guerrilla war against them. that he would recruit mercenaries and pay out of the stocks of gold that they think he has secreted. so if it is true, then that is one more obstacle removed from being able to get on the with the business of announcing a government and trying to unify the country. they have a very steep climb ahead of them as you know to try to bring together libya, build institutions, start on a new path to the future. having him out of the picture i think will give them more breathing space.

bill: hillary clinton from moments ago arriving in pakistan with our own wendell goler talking essentially about that steep climb. libya was divided into two tribes. western tribe where qaddafi was from and eastern tribe where rebels come from. qaddafi is dead from the associated press. libyan prime minister says qaddafi has been killed. that is from the associated press as well. we're taking all the parts of the story and piecing it together for you. this is often times how it is made here and this is one of those days. martha: hillary clinton touched on it there. the future of the country and pushing the lines through ms. rought at this and benghazi throughout the civil war on the ground. no one can dispute the positive outcome of this day if indeed as hillary clinton mentioned, if he is removed from the picture which indeed seems to be the case today. breaking news throughout this morning in "america's newsroom." a huge day in the history of watching these countries evolve.

muammar qaddafi appears to be, as hillary clinton said, out of the picture. waiting for confirmation from the u.s. government on that and our intelligence sources as was she. we'll be right back with more. gun gun. ten of 'em. perfect. add blind spot monitor. 43 mpg, nice. dependability. yeah. activate dog. a bigger dog. [ male announcer ] introducing the reinvented 2012 toyota camry. it's ready. are you? ♪

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martha: all right. we have been watching this morning, and we've been showing you a little bit because it is very graphic of this video has come in of what is believed to

be moammar gadhafi after he was shot in the head and legs and killed according to sources on the ground. we're still waiting for official confirmation from the white house and pentagon, so let's go to jennifer given who is live at the pentagon. the video has a real news purpose here because it is all we have at this point in terms of determining what happened to him, how he was killed and how this was carried out. >> reporter: well, what's really interesting, martha, is we have been checking back every few minutes with defense officials, the operations center here at the pentagon as well as intelligence officials, and no one as of yet can confirm that he's dead. but i was sitting in one official's office just moments ago, and as we watched the video, it was slowed down, and we were looking very carefully, and it did look like you could see a bullet wound behind the ear of gadhafi or what is purported to be gadhafi. the assumption is that he is dead, and now the real question is, was he killed by bullet

wounds, or was it, in fact, a nato air strike? nato did issue a statement earlier today about the same time that gadhafi was reported killed that it had fired on two vehicles in what they described as a convoy of gadhafi loyalists. we haven't been able to confirm that those airstrikes had anything to do with gadhafi's death, but, again, looking at the video, it looks like one bullet wound behind the ear. martha: obviously. the people who have been the revolutionaries on the ground, you know, according to sources in libya say they are taking credit for this, and that may very well be the case. it's possible that there was a combination of the two things, perhaps the convoy was hit and then he was vulnerable on the ground to some of these forces. so we're waiting to hear sort of the extent of that. what's the word at the pentagon in terms of the stability on the ground in the libya right now? what's their thought, their approach to that?

>> reporter: it's an excellent question, and we asked the defense secretary about this two days ago, and in particular the, what are referred to as man pads. they are shoulder-held missiles that can bring down commercial airplanes. and he said he was very concerned about reports that some of those missiles had ended up in the sinai desert, had crossed into egypt. that, obviously, worries officials in israel, and now pentagon officials have sent people out to actually try and locate those missiles. but there were 20,000 of them at the height of when gadhafi was, had these stores under his control. martha: yeah. obviously, that is a huge concern. the man pads which were mentioned by john bolton earlier and securing them will become one of the most important follow-up missions as we watch this process unfold. jennifer griffin, thank you very much. bill: my next guest has been invaluable in helping us understand is significance of --

the cig significance of all thee events, mike baker, president of diligence llc. good morning to you. >> thank you. bill: what does it mean? >> well, i mean, it's, obviously, extremely good news once it's confirmed. but what it means, also, is that we have to be very careful because we're now moving into probably the most important part. we always knew that gadhafi was finished, it was just a matter of what was the ending scenario. but now we have to hope that the national transitional council and sort of the de facto prime minister will be strong enough, charismatic enough, powerful enough and efficient enough to move immediately into the next phase of this which is to create stability, prevent revenge or retribution attacks against the former gadhafi supporters and move forward with some real changes to the government. so i think, you know, it's a time for celebration in a sense. i mean, you know, in the way that gadhafi has been treating

his people over the past 42 years, but we have to be very cautious about what happens next. bill: the press conference in tripoli, apparently, just ended or is taking place at the moment. the prime minister is there. he said, quote, we've been waiting for this moment for a long time. moammar gadhafi has been killed, end quote. who are these rebels? where do they come from, mike, and what do they want? >> well, it's a mixed bag. you remember at the very outset of this in libya, that was the big question. there was a lot of concern over, you know, who made up this rag tag group that was looking to carry out this. um, there are several components. you have to remember, also, there's 140-plus tribes and clans in clip ya. you've -- in libya. you've got the western mountains, you've got, you know, the arabs that make up the majority of the country. their biggest issue because, again, libya's got several things going for it, right? it's got enormous oil wealth. it's got a relatively small

population, and they don't have much in the way of religious diversity. it's mostly sunni muslims. but the biggest problem they've got is it's a very tribal culture -- bill: and those tribe were, essentially, divided in two, right? they wanted to get gadhafi for a very long time. >> right, that's very true. and the western tribe, you know, is coming out of the mountains, they were very effective in pushing this whole thing forward when there was months of stalemate. bill: the tribe that overtook gadhafi was only successful because of the drones and the support from nato. >> absolutely. bill: without that commitment that started in paris, france, with sarkozy back in the springtime followed up by a commitment be the president and the white house, the rebels are, in all likelihood, not in control today and gadhafi is still fighting off, is he not? >> that's very true. and we could spend all day analyzing the extent of the u.s. involvement, nato involvement, but you're right. top line, 30,000 foot without

that involvement we're not here today at this point, and we would have been in a much more difficult and, you know, stressful situation in terms of where that country is going. setting that aside, you know, this is owned by the libyans. they have to take control of this, and they have to push forward. there was no real government structure. gadhafi ran this country in a very clever way under his thumb by setting up sort of a bizarre, dysfunctional series of committees and congresses. it was an unusual structure. it's not like egypt where move bar rack lees -- mubarak leaves and you've got some infrastructure to build off of. i think probably the closest example we've got in -- is iraq, and we need to take lessons about what happened after hussein was killed to avoid that chaos in libya. bill: i predict in two days over the weekend you will be reading stories published online and print inside newspapers in this country about radical fundamentalists operate anything the libya.

agreed? >> well, yes, unfortunately, i agree and partly because that's a natural outcome from chaos. the extremists -- bill: but you know many foreign fighters in the wars in afghanistan and pakistan, they come from libya. >> well, absolutely. and libya, you know, the eastern part of libya's been a recruiting ground, certainly, for al-qaeda for years now. and we've known that, and that was one of the concerns we started looking at when we were looking at who made up this rebel band. they're very smart, they're very politically aware, and they've understood they could never get out front of this. so how do they now start to surface as we're see anything egypt? what sort of role will they be looking to play? there are a lot of unknowns. yes, it's a day for celebration, but they've got to switch that off and immediately move into a building phase and, again, try to avoid some of the problems and chaos we've seen and are still seeing as a result of the arab spring. bill: thank you, mike. mike baker, good to have you in

today. screen left is a picture live in libya along the streets. the horns and the bullets in the air. martha: all right. coming up just moments from now we are very pleased to be joined by senator marco rubio who just a few weeks ago was in libya. he's going to share with us his thoughts from his visit there and his time on the ground and what all of this means going forward. marco rubio coming up here live on "america's newsroom." [gunfire] ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] you've reached the age where you don't back down from a challenge. this is the age of knowing how to make things happen. so, why would you let something like erectile dysfunction get in your way? isn't it time you talked to your dtor about viagra?

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we're still waiting for affirmative, you know, confirmation from the administration on this. they're being very careful, as you can understand. we do expect that the president will make some comments this afternoon around 4:00 at a prescheduled appearance that he'll make this afternoon. he will get questions about this, and the hope is there will be some confirmation from our sources on that as we head into this afternoon. but after an extremely long reign, since 1968, moammar gadhafi at the age of 27 toppled the king, the royal leadership that was in power at the time in libya and continued his dictatorship. rick leventhal was sharing with us his experiences on the ground talking to the rebels. he says, you know, of all the rebels he had encounter inside afghanistan and iraq and also libya, those he met on the ground in libya were the most committed, the most driven. he spoke of shop owners and family members and small business people, you know, taking up arms because they wanted to see this day come.

and, of course, now with that comes all of the questions about what comes next. what will be the future of libya? mike baker with us just moments ago talking about his concerns about the muslim brotherhood and any possible influence they may have on a leadership role in libya. joined now by tony schafer, he joins me live. tony, good morning to you. >> morning. martha: what's your reaction today? >> well, we're entering, now, the maximum time of danger. up until now we've kind of known which side which, and i heard mike baker talk about his view of this being more looking how we did things in iraq, i think we need to look at how we did things in bosnia. the dictator in yugoslavia had a very similar set of issues, putting tribes, elements against each other. and that's what gadhafi was very effective in doing here. so we've got to look at that going forward. and bill hemmer just said about

how a lot of the fighters in afghanistan were libyan. one of the guys i was dealing with, a high-value target back in 2003 was one of the key leaders we were after, clearly, he was libyan. i think we've got to look at the tribal council realistically. about one-third are considered what we would consider radicals who really want to push the country back towards sharia, back towards the elements of religious zealotry which, i think, has caused a lot of problems in other nations. so we've got to look at that real list chi. martha: absolutely. and you look at what's been happening in egypt and, you know, the birth of democracy is what everybody hopes for will be a result of this arab spring, but, of course, democracy can bring all kinds of things along in its basket with it. so we've been sort of all live anything this period where you kind of had known dictators who wreaked havoc and misery on their people, but now we're in this tumultuous phase where we don't know which way all of this will end up.

what role can we play, tony, in the outcome of that? >> we're already there. i know for a fact we have contractors, former blackwater guys on the ground, state department is putting people in. we're there, and the question is can we be effective in the helping move the country in a positive direction. martha: that's a big question. >> this is critical for two reasons. first, we've got oil. the europeans depend greatly on the oil resources coming out of this nation. and i think we can see that kind of continue without much abatement if the next year. but can a democracy move forward to continue that relationship? martha: right. >> secondly, we need to look at all these weapons are going to go, surface-to-air missiles, pretty heavy armor -- martha: all right. going to have to leave it there. >> okay. thank you. martha: tony, thank you so much. shoulder-fired missiles that we've been talking about. bill: we showed you ten seconds of that video that appears to show gadhafi. in the meantime, jenna lee's coming up next on "happening now."

i've got one guess. [laughter] jenna: and i'll bet you're right on that. moammar gadhafi is dead. among our guests senator john mccain, lindsey graham and mark kirk. all of those senators just in libya 20 days ago. we're going to get their reaction. plus, fox's extensive lineup of reporters who have been been there, done that, david lee miller, jennifer given at the pentagon, quite a cast. we'll see you in a few minutes. bill: the prime minister there in tripoli, we've been waiting for this moment for a long time, moammar gadhafi has been killed. al-jazeera television says the foot an resembles the 69-year-old gadhafi lying dead or severely wounded, bleeding from the head, stripped to the waist. fighters rolled him over on the pavement. that from the associated press. screen left is from the streets of tripoli happening now on "america's newsroom." [gunfire] [ male announcer ] drinking a smoothie with no vegetable nutrition?

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[gunfire] martha: selling bra story gunfire being shot into the air in the streets in libya as they celebrate moammar gadhafi is dead according to many reports on the ground. still waiting for confirmation from the white house, but a lot of jubilation in the streets at the moment. people have waited for it there for more than 40 years. i'm joined now by florida senator marco rubio who was just in libya a couple of weeks ago. senator rubio, good morning. what are your thoughts on this today? >> well, i think it's closure, and i think it allows the libyan people to move to the next chapter of their history. one of the things people don't realize is that the transitional national council were not in

tripoli, they were still base inside men gaz si, and they refused to move to tripoli until the conflict was over which included the capture of moammar gadhafi. so i think we can start moving towards a real transition there with the assistance of the world community. i think that's a real positive development. martha: when you were there, what was your understanding of this transitional national council, and how much leadership they're going to have this the future of their country, what kind of country they want to have after this. >> well, a couple things struck me. first of all, very -- everywhere we went, and we went -- wherever we wanted to go, they would take us. they were have pro-american, pro-west, grateful for our involvement in helping them access their own freedom. i think they want to do the right thing, but they've got a bunch of armed militias, people a few months ago were running a bakery are now rebel soldiers with guns. you've got to convince these folks to come under some sort of a national government. that i si -- so i think they're trying to do that, and it's in our national interests to help

them do that. we have an opportunity in the arab/muslim world to have a pro-american ally in libya, one that also happens to be democratic. it's not a guarantee, it's not going to be easy. we can't do everything for them, they've got to do most of it themselves, but there are things we can do to help, and i think today opens the door for the next chapter in that story. martha: boy, that is the operational phrase there, things we can do to help because president obama was criticized for getting involved in this in the first place, then criticized for what was called leading from behind on this issue. no doubt the white house will take some form of credit for what has happened here because, you know, they got together a group of nations, got nato involved in the all of this. what do you think of the way the white house handled it so far? is. >> well, first of all, i'm glad it's all working out. ultimately, this is about the freedom and liberty of the libyan people. but it's the french and british that led on this fight and probably even led on the strike that led to gadhafi's capture or, you know, to his death.

so that's the first thing. the second thing is, you know, i criticized the president. he did the right things, he just took too long and didn't do enough. let me tell you the consequences of that. there are thousands of shoulder-fired rockets that are knockout miss -- that are now missing, a country that's been significantly eroded and rebuilt. a lot of people who are dead, a lot of young men who have to go into rehab and recovery from their war wounds. a lot of this could have been avoided if we had gotten involved early and decisively. these scenes you're watching right now, the capturing and killing of moammar gadhafi would have happened months ago, and libya would have been well underway. instead, the months of uncertainty have allowed for some other issues to arise that may be problematic. martha: very quickly, what role should we play going forward? >> well, a limited one. they want to pay us, they want to reimburse us for the cost of what we do to help them, and the number one thing they wanted was

help treat their wounded warriors. they're not just asking us to do it, they're asking the world community. there are frozen assets that belong to the libyan people, they have pledged to use those fund to reimburse us for the costs of doing that, and i hope we will. martha: senator rubio, thank you so much for being with us today. marco rubio from florida. bill: making terrific points. martha: he sure did. bill: continuing coverage of this breaking news, a historic day in libya. back in a moment here on the fox news channel. in america, we believe in a future that is better than today. since 1894, ameriprise financial has been working hard for their clients' futures. never taking a bailout. helping generations achieve dreams. buy homes. put their kids through college. retire how they want to. ameriprise.

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bill: it has been a remarkable morning for the past two hours watching images like these, and i think perhaps the most poignant comment we heard was the gentleman who lost his brother onboard pan am flight