the vendor's dream may not. >> that is wrap on news watch for this week. thanks to our panel. see you again next week.

that is our show tonight.

america spends much more than other countries spend but what do we get? we get more buildings an more assistant principals but student learning, no improvement? test scores are just flat. a few places do buck the trend like the american indian charter schools in oakland, california. they educate the so-called at risk kids, most are poor enough to qualify for free government lunch but most charter schools are the highest public scoring schools in california. benchavis wrote a book called "crazy like a fox." steve is an entrepreneur, he created the magazines and written a book class warfare. inside the fight to fix america's schools. so, steve your book what america

needs is a grand bargain with the unions, but i can't believe that because the unions don't want any change or to fire any teachers. i think you whim ped out in the research for your book. >> i think what we need more teachers. it's the only workplace where we don't take performance into account. as you have documented. only way to fix that. >> the workplace where we don't take performance into account meaning you the better teacher gets nothing. >> the only chance is how long you've been breathing and that is what the seniority is about and tenure system is about. >> how do you change that? >> you have to ding the union and bend the union. >> i didn't think they bent. >> they are stiff as a board, no

matter how you tried. >> i don't want to be here as defender of any union contract that exists today, but what you have to do is take the union contract and tear it up and do a new one. there are lots of teachers that care. there are lots and lots of teachers who are embarrassed by the ridiculous positions the union takes. those are the teachers 6 to reach and those are the teachers that you have to be in leadership of the schools. >> what do you think about what he says. >> i think he would want to negotiate with the clan. i don't know how you negotiate with these people. they hated competition and they hate us. >> meaning? >> charter schools. i don't know any union that supports charter schools. they won't come and visit your schools. they don't want my kids, for example if are in oakland, they don't want you to be funded the same as public schools.

we are funded $6,000 or $7,000 less. they say that is okay. they have no interested in kids. the union has been around forever and they have no record of showing an interest in kids. >> exactly as everything in ben said i don't disagree except for the for the first sentence. what i'm saying there is a certain leaders. there is a union leader in tampa florida who a reformer zbleejts but we're going to have a union leader later on the show. >> you wouldn't say he was disqualified. you wouldn't. >> but i would want to say you can't enforce your union rules. >> exactly right. >> you said that randy wine garner may be october to run the new york school district. >> i said it carefully, if she were under the thumb of the mayor who is used to keep subordinates under his thumb.

>> why would you stopped clue the leader that -- >> i would say here is the policy. we're going to have accountability. >> that means fire a teacher if you think they are not doing a good job. >> absolutely, absolutely. >> i don't know the union he is talking about. in the new york public school system, that is scary to me. she is only in there protecting the teachers. the old union bosses, i like them. they were right up in front. we only care about the teachers. we have no interest in the kids, they don't pay dues. i do prefer the clan over the union guys. these guys, they like lie to you. we're about the kids. all we wanted to do is help the kids and they don't care about the kids. >> that is nice to hear.

i can't believe i'm sitting here defending the union only on your show. >> she is out of pittsburgh today and you have unions implemented the exactly the kind of reforms we're talking about. they do not after a very brief hearing they are gone. no more -- nothing more than on fox news if they weren't performing. >> let me give you a hard time. some say we shouldn't have you because you are so politically incorrect. we did say some things that would make my neighbors say around here, whoa, you can't say that. >> in the regular system, around

here you would be toast. yet you've got this enormous success. >> hey, i'm honest with them. she would be a rare bird. i got six kids attending u.c. davis in the engineering department, not in the ethnic studies. six minority kids, they are rare birds. they are very successful, and they are going to be successful, but, of course, i just say the way i see it. >> and your purpose in saying that to her is what? >> tell her the truth. she is going to be hearing stuff like that. when she hears someone say negative, you should have heard what my principal said in high school. >> we showed earlier the unions saying we shouldn't have the standardized testing. you have a different opinion. >> i think if you do away with

that you should do away with scoring in football, basketball and track. i went to college on a track scholarship. so i'm all for accepting, testing is objective. the reason is the union don't want to be held accountable. wouldn't we love to have a job that there is no accountability. you are giving light tests. >> they love it. >> they love to come to school and show what they've learned. playing a basketball games, kids love the night of the basketball game because they are going to get to show all of their hard work that will be displayed. that is why my kids love testing my kids have the highest s.a.t. test scores in oakland. >> is and kids were excited about it but the teachers are going to burn out. i asked some charter teachers about it. you are going to burn off.

get kicked off. >> that is not an option for us. we kind of have our hand in the pie with the kids. >> it's hard to be kicked ticked off by it. >> they say they are enthusiastic but i don't know how long they will be enthusiastic. >> what i found doing my reporting and i love those teachers i was interviewing. they would do it two to four years but then ultimately, when they get to be your age or a little bit younger, if you answering are of which you are required to do 24/7 at home and you start to do this for five to eight years you have to realistic a bit. >> we're not being realistic asking them to work this hard. >> i totally disagree with you. i was at school at 4:30 and i

caught a flight in san francisco. when i was leaving there was a teacher coming in at 6:00. they love it. >> they'll burn out. >> when teachers come into our school, they start working with the kids, they love it. we've got a waiting list for kids. we've got a waiting list for teachers. people want to work with us because they will change people's lives. they work 180 days a year which is less than half a year. they have summer off and every holiday known to mankind. don't know how you are going to burn us out. we have a better vacation time than you do. [ laughter ] >> on that note, my vacation plan goes in there. thank you ben and steve. next, how american public school is like this. [ female announcer ] so you think your kids are getting enough vegetables?

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good. not to continue this segment i need to go briefly to indiana. you need the kind of competition in education because when you don't have real competition you get things like this. >> it was terrible car, you have to shake the car to mix it. it fused solution. a man in indiana happens to collect this terrible car. >> there is no gas gauge. this is checking the fuel. >> he owns six. >> when government runs things, this is what we get. >> in fact this is what cars looked like when government did run the car business. the yugo was the best cars the communists could produce but they were proud of those cars.

>> john: they said they were great cars and people didn't know better because no competition was allowed. it was like our school system. >> our school system, thecommonist milton friedman understood it was a problem before the rest of us did. in 1955 he proposed school vouchers, instead of spending $13,000 per child on government schools, that is what america spends on the average today, instead of just giving that money to the bureaucrats and assigning kids the schools based on where they live. he said attach them to the kid with the child and family choose which school to attend. then the schools would compete for that money and competition would improve all the schools. his idea was ignored for decades but now there are voucher experiments in many states. in this year, indiana all low

income families can use voucher to escape the monopoly. patrick burns chaired education choice and knows plenty about competition because he is ceo of the overstock.com the internet company that resells products cheap to people. your point is everybody wants choice and that includes education? >> right. let's remember the fundamental purpose of a monopoly, the whole point is to to sell interior product at a high price. it doesn't change when it's owned and managed by the state or government. it is still in the business of delivering really an inferior product for a high price. we're spending $700 billion on educating 50 million kids, $13,000 per child. our results are at the bottom of the industrialized world.

if we are educating kids at the same level, i don't want to name a country -- albania, it doesn't mean we're going to have a better standard of living than they. >> you says it's the least innovative industry in america because of lack of competition? >> if somebody came from 150 years ago and went to many classrooms today they would recognize what is going on. just stick weight old system. you can't think of another industry in america which has been legs innovative. >> john: vouchers to create innovation. if you do the math, $13,000 per child, you think let's compete to get that money and schools would be very innovative but, says i'll take the money and we'll start the al-qaeda school.

>> madrass, the problem they would first ask would you do that, would anybody in the audience send their child to the al-qaeda school. why do you worry about freedom if people had the ability to choose. they would make this choice. >> john: you don't you this would have some that would do that. taxpayer would help support that >> they said country could survive a few madrassses. >> john: the point was it's not as bad as the system we have now. if they want their kids to succeed in america. >> i actually think the risk of sending the school system where they teach the earth is flat i think it's overstated. >> john: and it might perpetuate

inequality. rich people would have a richer private school. >> i think that is backwards. i think this is a civil rights issue of the 21st century, vouchers. >> the average private school in america is $5,000, 9-12 is $7,000. we tend to think of private schools as dramatically, that is what private schools charge. if the state is spending $13,000 and some,000 and gave you a voucher for $7,000 and you can afford. >> the vouch ser worth half. >> the state saves money. you got more money left behind in the government schools. everybody is better off except the guild. >> john: one country has vouch certifies chile. i thought it was a big success but they have riots in chile

because they are so upset that some kids are taken their vouchers and going to better schools and protestors want to abolish all private schools. people are uncomfortable with free choice. >> let's abolish elections, cadillac and the fords and just sell trebants. there are always people let's just have the government run a monopoly and so forth. i'm sure there were people in east germany that did not want to see trebants delivered. >> i want to ask you one last question, what is with the suit. is this overstock? >> i'm with the chinese look. >> john: do you like it? >> i will say yes zbloojtsz next we feed a guy that went to be anti-charter school union boss to running a charter school. how is that possible?

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>> john: union leaders tend to hate charter schools. a union boss said over my dead body they are going to come to my school. i was surprised to learn about a.j. duckett. he used to the boss of the powerful los angeles teachers union but he will be boss of a charter school. how can you go to trashing charter schools to running one? >> it's a matter of circumstances. the background very quickly, there were a group of teachers at a did he function charter school who called me and said their principals and directors cracked open the standardized tests and said you will clear lesson plans based on this and they said absolutely not. they said what we can do. they said come on down and we unionized them. through that process i got to know these teachers, almost 73

of them. when we tried to keep the schools open because i am the president of the second largest teachers union, my job was to keep them working. we tried to keep the schools open, but it became clear that the management of those charter schools were not to the liking of the school board. they were corrupt. the schools closed down. we started talking about reemploying the teachers and they needed somebody to run the place. this is going to allow us to do things in a completely different way for the them. i heard you talking about how bad tenure was. i think ten our is a good thing. my teachers will have tenure but it will be earned tenure for recertification programs that every couple of years under the direction of master teacher and principal. they will have to recertify.

each time they do, they will get a little more tenure. you add recertification programs to quality professional development and you have teachers who are constantly involved in getting better at their craft. getting better at it. >> you say it's the apple academy. what if there is a bad apple. you can't say sorry, you can't get rid of it. >> you can get rid of in effect of teachers. >> john: they say that in new york. all these steps to get rid of a tenured teacher in new york. so you will be able to fire, sorry. >> yes. will we do that? in one swoop? no, we are going to bring in peer assistant review programs,

if we find teachers are infective and not helping students, then we're going fire them. of doing something immoral or legal they are gone. >> john: that is good to know. [ laughter ] >> john: i feel bad for the kids because i assume the schools will not perform. one in new york we're going to have choice of charters, we'll run one. it's one of the worst. >> i had the opportunity at the end of my career to show the world that progressive charter school management and teachers at the local schools that are unionized can work together what is best for the kids. the teachers that we will be hiring are pretty much from the old school and their academic performance was through the ceiling. there is no reason to believe it will be any less quality for the students in that community.

>> john: i hope you do it and prove me wrong and succeed for the kids. thank you for joining us today. later i'll show you some very cool things that are already happening because of school choice. but next the audience will have its say. [ applause ] [ male announcer ] along with support, chantiis proven to help people quit smoking. it reduthe urge to smoke. some people had changes in behavior, thinking orood, hostility, agitation, depressed mood and suicidal thoughts or actions while taking or after stopping chantix. if you notice any of these, stop taking chantix and call your doctor right away. tell your doctor about any history of depression or other mental health problems, which could get worse while taking chantix. don't take chantix if you've had a serious allergic or skin reactioto it. if you develop these, stop taking chantix and see your doctor right away as some can be life-threatening. if you have a history of heart orlood vessel problems,

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[ applause ] >> john: we're back with your questions for my guests. they are ben chavis, patrick burn and former union boss from los angeles, a.j. duffy. how many of you went to public school or government schools? how many god got a good educational at those schools? most of you. i would argue without real

competition, you don't know what you might have had. you don't knows add is. you might have gotten a trebant and thought you got a good education just like the russians or east germans thought they had a good car. right? so i want to plant that idea in your head since most of you got a good education in government run schools. yes, sir. >> shouldn't we at least consider selling our public schools and making them private? with the high technology that we have now, shouldn't the cost of an education should be going down? >> not in america. we spend more money. i cost more to educate a child or a car. [ laughter ] $55,000 for incarcerate a person in oakland it's $18,000 a year. you only spend six and a half hours a day per hour it's cheaper to have someone in

prison. >> john: who is next. >> will durant stated that liberty and equality is lifelong enemies. was he right or wrong. >> i don't think so. >> john: every teacher gets paid the same. >> is public education perfect? far from it. but are their oases of excellence, absolutely. >> are you going to pay them more at your school? >> we're going to pay our teachers more and train them better. >> john: so more than others? >> have them work together to create quality education for the students that we will -- it's not boilerplate. >> john: are you going to pay some teachers more? >> we're going to pay a fair salary. that is what teachers really want. >> john: it downs like union --

are you going to pay a good teacher more or everybody gets paid the same? >> everybody at the beginning will certainly get the same. i have no problem looking at this but it becomes what the standard we're using to judge what is the better teacher. with what we're going to do at apple, you know what, this is going to be a teacher driven school. parents will be a part of what we do. we're going to build something at apple academy that has never happened before. i cannot tell you whether a good teacher is going to get paid more because i don't know what the standard is. we're going to create that standard. >> wait a minute. the standard is the american model. we are the standard. you are going to have to whip us. every black in oakland,

california that passed calculus came from my school. >> john: you pay teachers different amounts and fire teachers. >> once you open your school, it's easy to talk about what you are going to do but if you have a lousy teacher you get them out in one day. teachers -- i got 79% of students pass the a.p. calculus. he is paid very well. the one who is teaching physics, i think he's gone. [ laughter ] >> he had to go. he got to stay because he is doing a great job. am i racist. the hebrew did a great job. 79% pass, the other guy. >> john: what if he matters if

he a mexican or not. >> he cheated my kids. he cheated our kids. i'm for the kids. he wasn't for the kids. they didn't pass the class. five years in a university and come to work for me and i'm supposed to train them. at our school we train the kids. i think it's a waste of money if a person went to u.c. berkeley and come to work for me and i have to train you again, you should get a refund from berkeley. what about training kids. teachers need constant training. teachers need to look at data all the time. teachers need to look at the student population they are dealing with. that can change from year to year. quality professional development [ talking over each other ]

>> you could hem craft the professional development to help meet the needs of classroom teachers. so john stossel couldn't go to a public high school to teach the journalism because you don't have the guild certificate. >> john: i wouldn't be allowed to. >> you would need to go through training. >> why don't we treat teachers with such kid gloves and worry about them burning out, working long hours. school day ends at 2:30. they don't work in summer. why do we treat teachers than any other profession? >> i'm not sure. >> john: do you agree with him? >> i'll answer in my way. [ laughter ] >> i do know that clearly what is going on now is that education is changing and that is a good things. maybe it will come to pass that teachers do work longer.

but you know as well i do that there are a lot of teachers that work more than just their six hours a day. they grade papers. they do a lot of extra work. hell, when i was a teacher i was in the community instituted organize in the inner city. >> there is a lack of innovation in public education today, why don't we abolish the department of education because that is a very specific curriculum. >> may i it that one. >> it shouldn't stop there. a lot of people talk about the unions tonight. it's not just the unions. the problem is i think deeply embedded in the district, county and state and federal. >> john: is there a name for the resistance. >> i you call it blob, i call

the guild. >> it's the professional educators and the unions and you point out some indian reservations there is no union but there is still a blob. >> i don't have any problem with the union. the school board who is elected by the union, where they can control the school board, university we have unions but we have one school board for the whole state. i would like to go one school board port whole state of california. that would do it for the unions. >> john: okay. you heard the phrase the blob. >> yes, you used it in the show two weeks ago. i felt this dealing with randy wine garten protesting my show, he said you teach for a week and see what it's like. i said okay, i will. then they had 400 meetings,

months later they couldn't agree on finding me on a classroom to teach. they don't say no, they say yes, and they smother you in bureaucracy. >> that is how teacher unions have evolved to where they are now. not siding parents or siding school bureaucracies that are stuck on stupid. clearly teacher unions have to evolve. there are places in the country where they are evolving. it's happening in significant ways. but it has to happen more. >> the problem is, you talk about the blob not to evolve. we can talk about how much we want to evolve, it's the economic incentive not to evolve. their incentive is to protect the monopoly so they continue to

serve a bad product. >> john: it's only competition that changes that. hang on. at overstock it must be cheap, not only if somebody wanted to sell it but they were forced to. >> it's all about incentive. and the incentive of the blob to slow down to keep things from changing so they can keep ex tract go from the monopoly. >> john: coming up we'll introduce you to someone that says school choice saved his life. [ applause ] and we switched to fedex cause a lot of their packaging contains recycled materials. tell them what else fedex does. well we're now using more electric trucks and lower emission planes. we even offer a reusable envelope.

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>> john: do vouchers for education work in just ask the low income kids in washington, d.c. who got vouchers to attend private schools. department of education found out three years, they were year ahead of the other kids in reading. so what do politicians do? expand the program? no. three years ago, they killed it. why? the president's press secretary had trouble answering the questions. >> the president has concerns about -- concerns about taking

large amounts of funding out of the system to -- >> after the cancellation there were protests. >> education is a key to success but why do you sit there and my education is taken away. >> john: why? did you ever get an answer? let me explain to my audience, the high school student that was making that speech. he got a voucher that allowed him to escape the d.c. public school system. now, he a freshman in miami. what happened? did the president ever respond? >> i really don't know how the program got reauthorized. >> john: maybe it was authorized against his wishes. he got bullied into it by the

speaker of the house. he said the administration opposes the creation or expansion of private school voucher programs. federal government should focus its attention on improving the quality of public schools for all students. >> i understand you want to focus your attention on improving the public school system but what are you going to do about the students that are failing schools now. >> john: promising to fix it. >> so that is why we have the d.c. scholarship program. >> john: before you got a scholarship through a lottery, in your opinion the public schools and there was a big difference? >> huge difference. academically, also with safety, that was a big issue. >> john: there were lots of fights? >> there were lots of fights, there were shootings.

it was really unsafe for us. my mother basically she wanted me out of that environment. something that was totally different which she wouldn't have to worry. >> john: but she didn't have the $13,000. >> no, she didn't have it. >> john: the opportunity for scholarship was much less than that, $7,000? >> $7,500. >> john: but that was enough to get you into a catholic school that was much better? >> yeah. they call me in the high school. >> john: what did you notice? >> academically, i was actually challenged. i remember when i was in the public school system, my teacher left in the middle of the year. i remember doing stuff -- he, the teacher that i have did not care so-called put in as a

teacher in the classroom. even the students in fifth grade they were complaining about it. that really set me back. >> john: your mother was going to send you to trinidad, they do well, compared to american schools? >> my mom got to the point she was fed up with the system. the public school system and was really tired of it. their only option was sending me back to trinidad and get an education. that is how she felt. she wasn't going to continue to let the system fail me. she wasn't going to let that happen. >> john: but you did get the voucher. you gotten a good education. despite the data showing the kids are ahead of reading that went, that got the voucher, biggest union says that d.c. voucher program has been a failure. it's yielded no evidence of positive impact on students'

achievement. >> how state failure when the public school system is failing students. it is failing its students. how can you say that a voucher program is a failure. i continues to understand that. >> john: i don't understand that either. >> we have data on graduation rates. d.c. public schools, 49% graduation rate. now, we put voucher losers and winners on the graph because perhaps people like your mother who apply for the vousmer are a different group. that a pretty basic study. ones who got the sloucher, 70% graduate versus 90% of the voucher winners. 91% from your school do better. >> it's proven. it really is. >> and we asked the nea to say how can you say this and they didn't call us back. i'm glad its worked out for you. thank you for joining us.

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>> john: the world a changing fast. for years the blob, horrible

suffocates the unionized bureaucracy has controlled our school system and imprisoned kids in terrible schools. just six years ago when i first did a show, unions were so outraged that someone would dare challenge their rules that competition would be better. hundreds of them showed outside my office to scream at me. stossel, shame on you. >> educators all over the country feel that they have been kicked in the teeth. >> she was upset that i called k-12 a government monopoly and they don't serve customers well. i don't think she heard the system called a monopoly. when i interviewed people that say that don't like children. yet now few years later, lots of people call the current system a government monopoly, millions of

kids get to escape it through charter schools. 18 school districts have more than 20% of their kids enrolled in charter schools. when hurricane katrina destroyed much of new orleans, city replaced most of its schools with nine union charters how did it happen in five years. home schooling is up, too, all around america and results are good. they outperform the government school kids on s.a.t. tests. so do many of charter school kids the all, but the beauty of charter and private schools when they don't do a good job. they die. they go out of business. the bad government monopoly schools never went out of business. new competition has led to promising innovation. more kids now learn on computers. think about this. 200 years ago most towns had one best singer. you were stuck with that but

then came radio and records and cd's and thanks to that, best singers reach the whole world. suddenly there is a best teacher, too, or several. now those teachers via internet can reach the whole world. blob has slowed that progress but that is changing, too. at this california school students learn from the internet teachers. they resisted the change but they are excited about it because the kids are excited to learn. >> they are happy to walk in, excited about it. they sympathy, this is great. >> i visited charter schools where i was surprised to meet kids that want to go to school and so poised and confident they gave me a hard time when i said things like this. >> school is boring! >> no!

>> my school was boring. that charter school is on to something. they don't have the answer to know what learning method will prove to be the best but the beauty of competition none of us needs to know. best methods emerge through competition and when that happens a thousand flowers will bloom. most of them will be better than what we've got now. that is our show. thanks for watching. good night. [ applause ] [ male announcer ] to the 5:00 a.m. scholar. the two trains and a bus rider. the "i'll sleep when it's done" academic. for 80 years, we've been inspired by you. and we've been honored to walk with you to help you get where you want to be

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