>> john: are we stupid in america? last month i did an education document. believe it or not. not everyone likes it. your story from teachers is so far from reality it was hard to watch. >> john: i can see why unions didn't like my show. i criticize this had union for protesting the texting. >> how do you know if they are learning anything? >> i know when i learn look at them in the eye. >> why have tenure? >> so the teachers unions are mad at me but i don't care but good news things are changing, now some kids can escape union

controls, exciting things are happening. >> give us a worst school anywhere in america and we'll outperform the other schools in five years. >> john: this successful educator is back to explain how he does that. how do you create a successful school? >> reading is work but it's rocking awesome. >> john: that is our show for tonight. [ applause ] >> john: our public schools struggle, the answer is, give them more money. we don't value education in america. teachers make a fraction of what lawyers and bankers make. we need to get priorities straight. fund the schools. but people don't know, america

has tripled school funding. america now spends much more than other countries spend yet what do we get? we get more buildings and more assistant principals but student learning, no improvement. test scores are just flat. a few places do buck the trend like the american indian charter schools in oakland, california. they educated at risk kids, most are poor to qualify for free government lunch but most charter schools are highest public scoring schools in california. ben chavis wrote a book called crazy like a fox. steve is an entrepreneur he created the magazines and now he has written a book about education, class warfare. inside the fight to fix america schools. so steve your book what america needs is grand bargain with the

union, but i can't believe that because the unions don't want any change or to fire any teachers. i think you wimped out on your research for your book. >> i think what we need is a grand bargain with teachers. there are 3.2 million public school teachers in the country. it's the only workplace where we don't take performance into account as you have gotten it. the only way to fix that. >> john: only workplace where we don't take performance in account, meaning the better teacher gets nothing. >> the only thing is how long you've been breathing. that is what the tenure system is about. >> john: how do you change that? >> you have to bend the union. >> john: can you bend the unions. didn't think they bent. >> they are stiff as a board. no matter how you tried.

>> i don't want to be here as defender of any union contract that exists today. you have to take the union contract and tear it up and do a new one. there are lots and lots of teachers that care. there are lots and lots of teachers who are embarrassed by ridiculous positions the union takes. those are the teachers that you have to reach. >> john: what do you think about what he says? >> sounds like he would want to negotiate with the clan. i don't know how you can negotiate with these people. i never met the members he is focusing about. they hate us. >> john: meaning charter schools? >> i don't no any union member that support charter they don't want us to be able to compete. for example if you are in oakland, you are a charter school they don't want to you be funded the same. we are funded $6,000, $7,000 less. they say it's okay.

they are only concerned with themselves. they have no interest in kids. the union has been around forever and they have no record of showing an interest in kids. >> i don't disagree with a word of it except for the first sentence. what i'm saying, there are certain union leaders, there is a union leader in tampa, florida who is actually a reformer. >> john: we're going to have a union leader later. >> there you go, you wouldn't want to say he is disqualified because he once ran the union. >> but i would want to say you can't enforce your union rules. you said that randy wiengardner should run the school district. >> what i said if she was under the mayor, as subordinate.

>> but stopping teachers from being fired. >> i wouldn't give her the latitude to do what she wants. here is the policy. we're going to have accountability. >> john: one policy for accountability, fire a teacher if they are not doing a good job >> i don't know the union he is talking about. randi, if she was in charge new york public school system, that is discretionary to me. she is only interest interested in protecting the teachers. old union bosses, they were up in front. we have no interest in kids, kids don't pay dues. these guys, i do prefer the klan over these union guys, you know why, i know where i stand with these guys. these guys they lie to you, they don't care about the kids. >> that is nice to hear but the fact is i can't believe i'm sitting here defending the

union. only your show. in florida, you have unions who are implemented the exactly the kind of reforms we are talking about. they do not after a very brief hearing, they are gone. you know, no more and no hearing and it's just like somebody on fox news if they weren't performing. >> i gave you hard time a little bit. some say we shouldn't have you on this show because you are so politically incorrect. we did tape things that would make my neighbors around in new york, you quantity say that. >> good for you. you'll be rare bird. >> in the regular system, around here you would be toast. you have got this enormous

success. >> i'm honest with them. she would be a rare bird. i got six kids attending u.c. davis in the engineering department, six of my kids, they are in engineering, they are rare birds and they are very successful, and they are going to be successful. of course, i just say it the way i see it. >> john: your purpose in saying that to her is what. >> tell her the truth. she is going hearing stuff like that. on when she hears someone say something negative. you should have heard what my principal said in high school. >> john: we showed earlier the unions saying we shouldn't have the standardized testing, it doesn't measure learning. you have a different opinion. >> i think if you do away with standardized testing, do away with scoring in football,

basketball, track. >> i went to college on a track scholarship. so i'm all for testing. testing is objective. the reason the union doesn't want to be eltd held accountable. wouldn't you love to have a job where there is no accountability they like tests, they love it. they love to to come to school and show what they learn. kids on the night of the basketball game, they will show all of their hard work that will be displayed. that is why my kids love testing >> charter schools i visited, impressive job, kids were excited about learning. you argue in your book the teachers are going to burn out. i asked some charter teachers about it. >> you are going to burn off? >> that is not an option.

we have our hand in the pie with the kids. >> when you see the results we are getting, it's hard to be fixed off by it. >> i can see that, i can see they are enthusiastic but i don't know how long they will be. >> i love those teachers i was interviewing, they would do it for two to four years, but ultimately when they get to be your age or my age, if you are answering your cellphone which you are required to do 24/7 at home, you have kids and start to do this for five to eight years, that -- you have to be realistic about it. >> john: we're not being realistic asking them to work that hard. >> it's like people that play golf. they love to play golf. i was at school at 4:30 and i go to school. when i was leaving there was a teacher coming in at 6:00.

they love it. >> john: they'll burn out. >> when teachers come into our school, we hear all these crazy things, they love it. i mean we got a waiting list for kids, we got a waiting listed for teachers. they know they will change people's lives. they work 180 days a year. they have the summer off, every holiday known to mankind, i don't know how you are going to burn us off when there is 365 days, we have a better vacation time than you do. >> john: we're out of time. my vacation plan is closing in. thank you. next, how american public school is like this horrible car. [ male announcer ] chicken broccoli alfredo. mushroom smothered beef burgers. hearty chicken and noodle casserole.

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[ applause ] >> john: for years american education has been a government monopoly. well somebody has to run the schools but government doesn't do anything well. they say they want real competition. it gives us better phones, movies, cars, everything that is good. not to continue this segment i

need to go briefly to indiana. you need the kind of competition in education because when you don't have real competition you get things like this. >> it was terrible car, you have to shake the car to mix it. it fused solution. a man in indiana happens to collect this terrible car. >> there is no gas gauge. this is checking the fuel. >> he owns six. >> when government runs things, this is what we get. >> in fact this is what cars looked like when government did run the car business. the yugo was the best cars the communists could produce but they were proud of those cars.

>> john: they said they were great cars and people didn't know better because no competition was allowed. it was like our school system. >> our school system, thecommonist milton friedman understood it was a problem before the rest of us did. in 1955 he proposed school vouchers, instead of spending $13,000 per child on government schools, that is what america spends on the average today, instead of just giving that money to the bureaucrats and assigning kids the schools based on where they live. he said attach them to the kid with the child and family choose which school to attend. then the schools would compete for that money and competition would improve all the schools. his idea was ignored for decades but now there are voucher experiments in many states. in this year, indiana all low income families can use voucher to escape the monopoly.

patrick burns chaired education choice and knows plenty about competition because he is ceo of the overstock.com the internet company that resells products cheap to people. your point is everybody wants choice and that includes education? >> right. let's remember the fundamental purpose of a monopoly, the whole point is to to sell interior product at a high price. it doesn't change when it's owned and managed by the state or government. it is still in the business of delivering really an inferior product for a high price. we're spending $700 billion on educating 50 million kids, $13,000 per child. our results are at the bottom of the industrialized world. if we are educating kids at the

same level, i don't want to name a country -- albania, it doesn't mean we're going to have a better standard of living than they. >> you says it's the least innovative industry in america because of lack of competition? >> if somebody came from 150 years ago and went to many classrooms today they would recognize what is going on. just stick weight old system. you can't think of another industry in america which has been legs innovative. >> john: vouchers to create innovation. if you do the math, $13,000 per child, you think let's compete to get that money and schools would be very innovative but, says i'll take the money and we'll start the al-qaeda school.

>> madrass, the problem they would first ask would you do that, would anybody in the audience send their child to the al-qaeda school. why do you worry about freedom if people had the ability to choose. they would make this choice. >> john: you don't you this would have some that would do that. taxpayer would help support that >> they said country could survive a few madrassses. >> john: the point was it's not as bad as the system we have now. if they want their kids to succeed in america. >> i actually think the risk of sending the school system where they teach the earth is flat i think it's overstated. >> john: and it might perpetuate inequality.

rich people would have a richer private school. >> i think that is backwards. i think this is a civil rights issue of the 21st century, vouchers. >> the average private school in america is $5,000, 9-12 is $7,000. we tend to think of private schools as dramatically, that is what private schools charge. if the state is spending $13,000 and some,000 and gave you a voucher for $7,000 and you can afford. >> the vouch ser worth half. >> the state saves money. you got more money left behind in the government schools. everybody is better off except the guild. >> john: one country has vouch certifies chile. i thought it was a big success but they have riots in chile because they are so upset that some kids are taken their

vouchers and going to better schools and protestors want to abolish all private schools. people are uncomfortable with free choice. >> let's abolish elections, cadillac and the fords and just sell trebants. there are always people let's just have the government run a monopoly and so forth. i'm sure there were people in east germany that did not want to see trebants delivered. >> i want to ask you one last question, what is with the suit. is this overstock? >> i'm with the chinese look. >> john: do you like it? >> i will say yes zbloojtsz next we feed a guy that went to be anti-charter school union boss to running a charter school. how is that possible? [ applause ] we're america's natural gas

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>> john: union leaders tend to hate charter schools.

a union boss said over my dead body they are going to come to my school. i was surprised to learn about a.j. duckett. he used to the boss of the powerful los angeles teachers union but he will be boss of a charter school. how can you go to trashing charter schools to running one? >> it's a matter of circumstances. the background very quickly, there were a group of teachers at a did he function charter school who called me and said their principals and directors cracked open the standardized tests and said you will clear lesson plans based on this and they said absolutely not. they said what we can do. they said come on down and we unionized them. through that process i got to know these teachers, almost 73 of them.

when we tried to keep the schools open because i am the president of the second largest teachers union, my job was to keep them working. we tried to keep the schools open, but it became clear that the management of those charter schools were not to the liking of the school board. they were corrupt. the schools closed down. we started talking about reemploying the teachers and they needed somebody to run the place. this is going to allow us to do things in a completely different way for the them. i heard you talking about how bad tenure was. i think ten our is a good thing. my teachers will have tenure but it will be earned tenure for recertification programs that every couple of years under the direction of master teacher and principal. they will have to recertify. each time they do, they will get a little more tenure.

you add recertification programs to quality professional development and you have teachers who are constantly involved in getting better at their craft. getting better at it. >> you say it's the apple academy. what if there is a bad apple. you can't say sorry, you can't get rid of it. >> you can get rid of in effect of teachers. >> john: they say that in new york. all these steps to get rid of a tenured teacher in new york. so you will be able to fire, sorry. >> yes. will we do that? in one swoop? no, we are going to bring in peer assistant review programs, if we find teachers are infective and not helping

students, then we're going fire them. of doing something immoral or legal they are gone. >> john: that is good to know. [ laughter ] >> john: i feel bad for the kids because i assume the schools will not perform. one in new york we're going to have choice of charters, we'll run one. it's one of the worst. >> i had the opportunity at the end of my career to show the world that progressive charter school management and teachers at the local schools that are unionized can work together what is best for the kids. the teachers that we will be hiring are pretty much from the old school and their academic performance was through the ceiling. there is no reason to believe it will be any less quality for the students in that community. >> john: i hope you do it and prove me wrong and succeed for

the kids. thank you for joining us today. later i'll show you some very cool things that are already happening because of school choice. but next the audience will have but next the audience will have its say. [ male announcer ] ntgomery and abigail haggins had a tree that borthe most rare and magical fruit, which provided for their every financial need. [ thunder rumbling ] [ thunder crashing ] and then, in one blinding blink of an eye, their tree had gen its last. butith their raymond james finanal advisor, they had prepared for even the unthinkable. ♪ and they danced. see what a raymond james advisor can do for you. new fiber one 80 calories... ...with its sweet honey taste, 40% daily value of fiber... ...and 80 calories per serving... ...you may want to tell a few friends.

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[ applause ] >> john: we're back with your questions for my guests. they are ben chavis, patrick burn and former union boss from los angeles, a.j. duffy. how many of you went to public school or government schools? how many god got a good educational at those schools? most of you. i would argue without real competition, you don't know what you might have had.

you don't knows add is. you might have gotten a trebant and thought you got a good education just like the russians or east germans thought they had a good car. right? so i want to plant that idea in your head since most of you got a good education in government run schools. yes, sir. >> shouldn't we at least consider selling our public schools and making them private? with the high technology that we have now, shouldn't the cost of an education should be going down? >> not in america. we spend more money. i cost more to educate a child or a car. [ laughter ] $55,000 for incarcerate a person in oakland it's $18,000 a year. you only spend six and a half hours a day per hour it's cheaper to have someone in prison. >> john: who is next. >> will durant stated that

liberty and equality is lifelong enemies. was he right or wrong. >> i don't think so. >> john: every teacher gets paid the same. >> is public education perfect? far from it. but are their oases of excellence, absolutely. >> are you going to pay them more at your school? >> we're going to pay our teachers more and train them better. >> john: so more than others? >> have them work together to create quality education for the students that we will -- it's not boilerplate. >> john: are you going to pay some teachers more? >> we're going to pay a fair salary. that is what teachers really want. >> john: it downs like union -- are you going to pay a good

teacher more or everybody gets paid the same? >> everybody at the beginning will certainly get the same. i have no problem looking at this but it becomes what the standard we're using to judge what is the better teacher. with what we're going to do at apple, you know what, this is going to be a teacher driven school. parents will be a part of what we do. we're going to build something at apple academy that has never happened before. i cannot tell you whether a good teacher is going to get paid more because i don't know what the standard is. we're going to create that standard. >> wait a minute. the standard is the american model. we are the standard. you are going to have to whip us. every black in oakland, california that passed calculus

came from my school. >> john: you pay teachers different amounts and fire teachers. >> once you open your school, it's easy to talk about what you are going to do but if you have a lousy teacher you get them out in one day. teachers -- i got 79% of students pass the a.p. calculus. he is paid very well. the one who is teaching physics, i think he's gone. [ laughter ] >> he had to go. he got to stay because he is doing a great job. am i racist. the hebrew did a great job. 79% pass, the other guy. >> john: what if he matters if he a mexican or not.

>> he cheated my kids. he cheated our kids. i'm for the kids. he wasn't for the kids. they didn't pass the class. five years in a university and come to work for me and i'm supposed to train them. at our school we train the kids. i think it's a waste of money if a person went to u.c. berkeley and come to work for me and i have to train you again, you should get a refund from berkeley. what about training kids. teachers need constant training. teachers need to look at data all the time. teachers need to look at the student population they are dealing with. that can change from year to year. quality professional development [ talking over each other ] >> you could hem craft the

professional development to help meet the needs of classroom teachers. so john stossel couldn't go to a public high school to teach the journalism because you don't have the guild certificate. >> john: i wouldn't be allowed to. >> you would need to go through training. >> why don't we treat teachers with such kid gloves and worry about them burning out, working long hours. school day ends at 2:30. they don't work in summer. why do we treat teachers than any other profession? >> i'm not sure. >> john: do you agree with him? >> i'll answer in my way. [ laughter ] >> i do know that clearly what is going on now is that education is changing and that is a good things. maybe it will come to pass that teachers do work longer. but you know as well i do that

there are a lot of teachers that work more than just their six hours a day. they grade papers. they do a lot of extra work. hell, when i was a teacher i was in the community instituted organize in the inner city. >> there is a lack of innovation in public education today, why don't we abolish the department of education because that is a very specific curriculum. >> may i it that one. >> it shouldn't stop there. a lot of people talk about the unions tonight. it's not just the unions. the problem is i think deeply embedded in the district, county and state and federal. >> john: is there a name for the resistance. >> i you call it blob, i call the guild. >> it's the professional

educators and the unions and you point out some indian reservations there is no union but there is still a blob. >> i don't have any problem with the union. the school board who is elected by the union, where they can control the school board, university we have unions but we have one school board for the whole state. i would like to go one school board port whole state of california. that would do it for the unions. >> john: okay. you heard the phrase the blob. >> yes, you used it in the show two weeks ago. i felt this dealing with randy wine garten protesting my show, he said you teach for a week and see what it's like. i said okay, i will. then they had 400 meetings, months later they couldn't agree on finding me on a classroom to

teach. they don't say no, they say yes, and they smother you in bureaucracy. >> that is how teacher unions have evolved to where they are now. not siding parents or siding school bureaucracies that are stuck on stupid. clearly teacher unions have to evolve. there are places in the country where they are evolving. it's happening in significant ways. but it has to happen more. >> the problem is, you talk about the blob not to evolve. we can talk about how much we want to evolve, it's the economic incentive not to evolve. their incentive is to protect the monopoly so they continue to serve a bad product.

>> john: it's only competition that changes that. hang on. at overstock it must be cheap, not only if somebody wanted to sell it but they were forced to. >> it's all about incentive. and the incentive of the blob to slow down to keep things from changing so they can keep ex tract go from the monopoly. >> john: coming up we'll introduce you to someone that says school choice saved his life. [ applause ] if opping for insurance re like shopping foriapers, you might think all these cost about the same... protect about the sam.. but what if you have an accident? allstate accident forgiveness starts the day you sign up. these guys might make you wait a couple of years. we can't wait a couple years. [ babbles ]

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>> john: do vouchers for education work in just ask the low income kids in washington, d.c. who got vouchers to attend private schools. department of education found out three years, they were year ahead of the other kids in reading. so what do politicians do? expand the program? no. three years ago, they killed it. why? the president's press secretary had trouble answering the questions. >> the president has concerns about -- concerns about taking

large amounts of funding out of the system to -- >> after the cancellation there were protests. >> education is a key to success but why do you sit there and my education is taken away. >> john: why? did you ever get an answer? let me explain to my audience, the high school student that was making that speech. he got a voucher that allowed him to escape the d.c. public school system. now, he a freshman in miami. what happened? did the president ever respond? >> i really don't know how the program got reauthorized. >> john: maybe it was authorized against his wishes. he got bullied into it by the speaker of the house. he said the administration opposes the creation or

expansion of private school voucher programs. federal government should focus its attention on improving the quality of public schools for all students. >> i understand you want to focus your attention on improving the public school system but what are you going to do about the students that are failing schools now. >> john: promising to fix it. >> so that is why we have the d.c. scholarship program. >> john: before you got a scholarship through a lottery, in your opinion the public schools and there was a big difference? >> huge difference. academically, also with safety, that was a big issue. >> john: there were lots of fights? >> there were lots of fights, there were shootings. it was really unsafe for us. my mother basically she wanted

me out of that environment. something that was totally different which she wouldn't have to worry. >> john: but she didn't have the $13,000. >> no, she didn't have it. >> john: the opportunity for scholarship was much less than that, $7,000? >> $7,500. >> john: but that was enough to get you into a catholic school that was much better? >> yeah. they call me in the high school. >> john: what did you notice? >> academically, i was actually challenged. i remember when i was in the public school system, my teacher left in the middle of the year. i remember doing stuff -- he, the teacher that i have did not care so-called put in as a teacher in the classroom. even the students in fifth grade

they were complaining about it. that really set me back. >> john: your mother was going to send you to trinidad, they do well, compared to american schools? >> my mom got to the point she was fed up with the system. the public school system and was really tired of it. their only option was sending me back to trinidad and get an education. that is how she felt. she wasn't going to continue to let the system fail me. she wasn't going to let that happen. >> john: but you did get the voucher. you gotten a good education. despite the data showing the kids are ahead of reading that went, that got the voucher, biggest union says that d.c. voucher program has been a failure. it's yielded no evidence of positive impact on students' achievement. >> how state failure when the public school system is failing

students. it is failing its students. how can you say that a voucher program is a failure. i continues to understand that. >> john: i don't understand that either. >> we have data on graduation rates. d.c. public schools, 49% graduation rate. now, we put voucher losers and winners on the graph because perhaps people like your mother who apply for the vousmer are a different group. that a pretty basic study. ones who got the sloucher, 70% graduate versus 90% of the voucher winners. 91% from your school do better. >> it's proven. it really is. >> and we asked the nea to say how can you say this and they didn't call us back. i'm glad its worked out for you. thank you for joining us. next, more good news very

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>> john: the world a changing fast. for years the blob, horrible suffocates the unionized

bureaucracy has controlled our school system and imprisoned kids in terrible schools. just six years ago when i first did a show, unions were so outraged that someone would dare challenge their rules that competition would be better. hundreds of them showed outside my office to scream at me. stossel, shame on you. >> educators all over the country feel that they have been kicked in the teeth. >> she was upset that i called k-12 a government monopoly and they don't serve customers well. i don't think she heard the system called a monopoly. when i interviewed people that say that don't like children. yet now few years later, lots of people call the current system a government monopoly, millions of kids get to escape it through charter schools.

18 school districts have more than 20% of their kids enrolled in charter schools. when hurricane katrina destroyed much of new orleans, city replaced most of its schools with nine union charters how did it happen in five years. home schooling is up, too, all around america and results are good. they outperform the government school kids on s.a.t. tests. so do many of charter school kids the all, but the beauty of charter and private schools when they don't do a good job. they die. they go out of business. the bad government monopoly schools never went out of business. new competition has led to promising innovation. more kids now learn on computers. think about this. 200 years ago most towns had one best singer. you were stuck with that but then came radio and records and

cd's and thanks to that, best singers reach the whole world. suddenly there is a best teacher, too, or several. now those teachers via internet can reach the whole world. blob has slowed that progress but that is changing, too. at this california school students learn from the internet teachers. they resisted the change but they are excited about it because the kids are excited to learn. >> they are happy to walk in, excited about it. they sympathy, this is great. >> i visited charter schools where i was surprised to meet kids that want to go to school and so poised and confident they gave me a hard time when i said things like this. >> school is boring! >> no! >> my school was boring. that charter school is on to

something. they don't have the answer to know what learning method will prove to be the best but the beauty of competition none of us needs to know. best methods emerge through competition and when that happens a thousand flowers will bloom. most of them will be better than what we've got now. that is our show. thanks for watching. good night. [ applause ] we are building a website by ourselves. [ woman announcing ] there's an easier way. create your own small-business site... with intuit websites. choose a style, customize, publish and get found... from just $7.99 a month. get a 30-day free trial... at intuit.com. or a can of paint... you came together to vote, to share... to volunteer.

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