jenna: that's good to hear. thanks for joining us, everybody. jon: "america live" starts right now. megyn: fox news alert from the campaign trail, texas governor rick perry apparently getting ready to ditch some of the upcoming gop debates after stumbling mightily in his first few performances. but could his decision cost him with voters? welcome to "america live," everyone, i'm megyn kelly. just over two months ago the texas governor came blazing into the republican race, immediately assuming front runner status. now he is trailing herman cain by 14 percentage points in the latest fox news poll, and he is ten points behind mitt romney. many attribute his fall to his struggling debate performances, and now we learn today from the perry camp that the texas governor will limit his future debate appearances. chris stirewalt is our fox news digital politics editor on this breaking news. chris, i guess that's one approach. [laughter] >> reporter: that's right. that's one way to do it. now, of course, there's not

debating and then there's not debating. rick perry, when he ran for governor for his current term in texas, he didn't debate at all and used the fact that his opponent declined to release his tax returns as the pretext for why he wouldn't debate. obviously, that's not going to work here. he has to participate in some of these debates. particularly in places like iowa, south carolina, these states that he must win or must do very well in to have his campaign go forward. so he's got to do some, but i think there may be an opportunity because republicans are a little fatigued with all l of the bicker that has gone on in some of these debates, especially the last one, for perry to bow out of a couple. megyn: if he becomes the republican nominee, he's going to have to do some debating against somebody who's very skilled at debating. what kind of a message does it send to the american people, to gop voters that he's not even going to bother to show up at all the gop debates?

>> reporter: well, as the perry campaign points out when you're talking about 16 debates over 12 weeks and it includes some debates that are not going to be the millions and millions of viewers that came in for the last debate that you were part of moderating, but, yeah, i think he runs the risk that he looks like he's running scared. and if that becomes part of the perry narrative, then he has serious trouble. megyn: is there a question about what the motivations are? because the campaign wants us to believe that the reason he's not going to necessarily participate in all of these is he's very busy, and he has, you know, a bunch of primaries and caucuses to worry about. how is that different from any of the other gop candidates? >> reporter: well, certainly, you know, if he were to be able to get away with this, i'm sure that mitt romney would like to follow suit -- meg they'd all like to fall suit. that's the dirty secret of these debates. the candidates are afraid of them because they have a lot to

lose, they'd like to get their message out there in a more controlled setting, but they do it because they have to answer to the american people. >> reporter: exactly right. now, what perry's trying to do spotlightsly is make an argument why he should be running for president, something he failed to do out of the box. there was a sizzle but not much steak when he came out. he's trying to put some meat out there, these things running biographical, positive ads about himself out there, trying to reengage in the race. if they mishandle this, it could be very dire. megyn: well, you know, it's interesting when they sort of try to control who's going to be asking them questions, who they're going to allow themself to sit down across from, you know, it seems like a media strategy. it's worked well for other politicians in the past, we'll see what happens with this particular one. chris, thank you. >> reporter: yes, indeed. megyn: what do you think, folks? does he have the right to bail out? will it effect the way you're going to view perry in this race? let me know, kelly@foxnews.com.

president obama's campaign has been testing a new message this week as the president pushes some new economic ideas with repeated warnings that we can't wait. take a listen. >> but, listen, we're not going to wait though. we're not waiting for congress. [applause] we can't wait for congress to do its job. [cheers and applause] we said we can't wait for congress to help small businesses, we can't wait for an increasingly dysfunctional congress to do its job. but remember what i said, we can't just wait for congress because we can't wait for congress to help our families and our economy. we can't wait for that action. i'm not going to wait for it. megyn: well, you think that's a coordinated message that the white house has decided to put out now? in five minutes, karl rove joins us to point out what he calls a major problem with the president's campaign push, his warning to the voters is just ahead. well, new developments now in the mysterious disappearance of lisa irwin. her parents shutting out the

media this morning, canceling a scheduled news conference today and a walk-through of the irwin family home. not really sure we can pin that on the parents so much as their local counsel. we are also told that the parents say now that they will speak to the police again, but only if investigators meet certain conditions being set by those parents. trace gallagher tracking developments now from the breaking news desk. trace? >> reporter: you know, megyn, when they offered that tour of the house today, the media scrambled because this was going to be a pool situation where one camera goes in and all the media, they share that video, so it has to be coordinated. but then suddenly, in minutes, the attorney just clammed up. they canceled the tour of the house, they canceled the post-tour press conference and then issued this statement saying, and i'm quoting here:

>> reporter: baby lisa's been missing now for almost four weeks, and the parents and attorneys are taking a break until early next week. we then contacted the kansas city police department asking if this would effect the interview tomorrow with lisa's brothers, the 5 and 8-year-old brothers. they say, no, the interview's still a go, the attorneys agree, so tomorrow the brothers are interviewed and will submit a dna sample. then there's the issue of the parents being interviewed again. place they the -- police say the two did not agree to be interviewed separately. the lawyers say they will, but they do not want to be interviewed without their attorneys present, and they don't want to be interviewed by the current investigative team because they believe those detectives have already made up their mind that the parents are guilty. so the parents and police appear to still be at somewhat of a standoff here, megyn. baby lisa has been missing now for just about 25 days.

megyn: trace, thank you. we're going to get into this later at about 1:45 on whether the parents have the right to say we're not going to speak to you unless we get to choose who the questioners are. meantime, brand new reports out today on the state of our economy. first, an uptick in consumer spending over the past, well, few months. the less than 3% growth comes after a nearly stagnant six months, so it's not that high, but it's higher than it's been. and there were slightly fewer americans getting on the unemployment line last week. first time unemployment claims dipping slightly, not enough, however, to suggest that hiring is picking up. the numbers are still above 400,000. and finally, bad news in the housing market. the number of americans who signed purchase contracts falling for the third straight month down nearly 5% in september. charles payne is a fox business network anchor, and he is here to give us some perspective on in the. all right, so the gdp, the growth in our nation's growth, where is it, and put it in perspective for us.

>> 2.5%, it's pretty good compared to expectations. it's not the kind of thing that's going to propel us out, but all summer long it was about a double dip recession. the stock market was crashing, people feeling really bad. for the last three weeks what i've been calling in the stock market is a dirty fingernails rally. i'm seeing great news from companies like caterpillar, companies that do things, machines, tools, coal where we get our fingernails dirty. so the notion we're in a double dip, i feel extremely good we're not, and i think we have something we could build on. megyn: now, what is this thing about the magic 3% number when it comes to gdp? we're not there. why do we need to be there at least, they say? >> well, there's certain things we need to do every day, we're going to eat a certain amount of food, there's certain basics that will keep your economy going. we need to get out of a hole and create jobs, and a lot of people look at that 3 percent number as a point where you actually start to create jobs.

megyn: it's actually the creation of jobs and getting us in the right direction. >> right. because i don't think anybody's happy with where we are today. nobody wants this to be the status quo. i remember the president talking about breaking the boom and bust cycle, and i cringe and say don't break it here. if we break it, let's break it at the boom cycle. you're right, we're right at that point where at least what i like about this is that so many people have given up, and i think people need to understand that america works, that capitalism works, and we're on the cusp. we could actually turn this thing around. megyn: to what do you attribute this increase in our nation's productivity? >> well, there's a couple things, let's be honest. the rest of the world i don't think at any point in the history of this globe has the rest of the world been coming on to the degree it's been coming on. all we focus on really though is western europe, japan and america. there's brazil, there's vietnam, there's china, there's africa. i don't think there's been this much upward mobility in the world ever in history, and they want what we have. so, you know, last night norfolk southern, a lot of that stuff

they made money on, they were shipping coal to latin america. also here at home, though, people don't give up. we see occupy wall street and it feels like, oh, man, woe is me. most people in this country got up this morning and went to work -- megyn: uh-huh. or would like to. >> those who didn't are looking for a job. the point is, we're better off than we think we are. we are, obviously, still not anywhere where we can be, but there's enough signs of life that we could catapult this thing. megyn: you're all about making bets on the stock market -- >> i've got to tell you something, i'm excited. i've made people so much money in the last three weeks. megyn: why am i not one of them? [laughter] >> we've got to get you on the list. megyn: i'm one of the lucky ones, i don't have money in the stock market. well, it was an operation that resulted in the death of at least two border patrol agents overseen by the department of homeland security. so how could the homeland security chief not have picked

up the phone and called the u.s. attorney general about it? the doj was purportedly overseeing this operation, fast and furious. well, napolitano claims she never did it. >> when did you first speak with eric holder about fast and furious? >> i don't believe i've ever spoke spoken with eric holder about farce and furious. >> why is it that you don't have the details? megyn: secretary napolitano in the hot seat before a congressional panel yesterday. so why department she raise a red flag -- why didn't she raise a red flag or pick up the phone? we report, you decide ahead. plus, a mayor and police chief are taking a lot of heat today after an iraq war vet is seriously injured between cops and an occupy protest group. is this fair? wait until you hear this story. and we've seen our fair share of crazy dash cam videos, but the woman arrested for driving drunk and topless? she may be a prize winner. >> in 26 years of working as a

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>> but listen, we're not going to wait though. we're not waiting for congress. [applause] we can't wait for congress to do its job. [cheers and applause] we said we can't wait for congress to help small businesses, we can't wait for an increasingly dysfunctional congress to do its job. but remember what i said, we can't just wait for congress. because we can't wait for congress to help our families and our economy. we can't wait for that action. i'm not going to wait for it. megyn: well, president obama repeatedly using the phrase, "we can't wait, with" on the campain trail the past few days, blasting congress in an attempt to sell his latest stimulus plan to americans.

but karl rove says you have to drill down on exactly what the president's really saying there. carl's with me now, the former senior adviser and deputy chief of staff to president bush. karl, thank you for being here. you say that the slogan unintentionally showcases an essential truth about the obama presidency. what is that truth? >> he's far more comfortable campaigning than he is comfortable at governing. and take this week's focus, infrastructure. he went to las vegas and los angeles and talked about infrastructure and how we need to have a temporary program for highway construction. well, here's the problem. in 2009 the six-year highway bill came to an end. it lapsed. and since 2009 president obama has not done the heavy lifting to get a highway bill passed. in fact, in june of 2009 with a democrat -- when the democrat chairman of the house transportation committee announced he was ready to present a bill, the administration attacked it. and since then we've had no

highway bill which has caused confusion and uncertainty among state officials and in the private sector, and we've had eight terror extensions of the highway bill, and now the president comes and lectures us saying i can't wait for congress. well, wait a minute, mr. president, you're the president, and you should have have been working with democrats in 2010 and 2009 when you controlled the congress to renew the highway bill. focus on that rather than giving us these temporary measures. megyn: you say it's like the slogan my mom had on our kitchen cup board which is lack of planning on your part does not justify an emergency on my part. >> right. but it extends throughout. the president outsources the drafting of important legislation in congress so we end up with, like, the failed stimulus bill and the affordable care act, bills that are unworkable and impractical and unpopular. yesterday there was an extraordinary piece in the mccrotch chi newspapers about how the president is disengaged with iraq. turns out the president did not speak to the prime minister of iraq between february 13th and

the day that he called him up to say we won't have u.s. troops in if iraq after the end of the agreement that we have with you at the end of the year. the president did not talk to the head of iraq during that entire time trying to work out an arrangement by which u.s. troops could be kept in iraq as a buffer against iran and syria. and i just find it astonishing that the president's so disengaged from this most perm of diplomacy which is so vital to our country. megyn: you used the word "disengaged," and in your opinion piece this week you talk about the motivation behind these things. and you say it shows an indifference to imorching. what -- governing. what do you mean by that? what do you think is going on? >> look, i think he is an idealogue. he has this checklist of things he'd like to get done, but he's unengaged. take a look at bp, for example, the oil spill in the gulf. it took him 55 days from the oil spill until he finally sat down and met with an expert who knew

what the heck was going on in the gulf of mexico. he was criticized for not engaging in it, but it took him 55 days to sit down with somebody who was smart enough to know what the heck are us going on. you want to make sure the president has the best advice from people with summit matter expertise, and it department happen there -- it didn't happen there. megyn: do you see a different man on the campaign trail? i mean, the white house says it's not campaigning, it's promotion of the stimulus ii, but in any event, it's serving two purposes at least, promotion of stimulus ii and getting ready for campaign '12. >> he loves being out on the campaign trail. he loves getting on air force one or getting on that bus. the president has had a fundraiser since the beginning of april every four days. he's had more than twice as many as bush did in his re-election campaign. and i don't think the bushes

first, quote, bus tour was until summer of 2004, now we've had this president out on a bus tour more than a year before the election. he's comfortable with campaigning, he's just not comfortable at all with being the president of the united states and the tough duties of the oval office. he pushes them off on other people or ignores them. megyn: karl rove, thanks of for being here. >> thanks for having me. megyn: new developments in the search for a missing baby in missouri. baby lisa's parents say they will speak to police again, but only under certain conditions. judge alex is here on what those conditions are and whether they're appropriate. plus, today we honor an american hero who was killed in afghanistan by a roadside bomb over the weekend. even if you don't know his name or his face, you will remember his role in a very famous rescue mission. and homeland security secretary janet napolitano on the hot seat. republicans want to know what she knew about the botched federal gun trafficking

operation known as fast and furious. and why she did not contact the attorney general after some of the weapons that were given to the bad guys in this connection with that operation were linked to the deaths of two of her border patrol agents. >> for you to have two dead agents and to have never had a conversation with eric holder about fast and furious and about this is totally unacceptable. my sinus symptoms come with a cough that stays even after i treat... [ male announcer ] truth is, most sinus formulas don't treat a cough. really? [ male announcer ] alka-seltzer plus sinus liquid gels fights sinus symptoms plus cough. you're good. [ male announcer ] thanks. that's the cold truth! i'm not a line item on a budget. and i'm definitely not a pushover.

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megyn: update, now, on the murder of university of virginia lacrosse player yeardley love. the 22-year-old college coed brutally murdered in her off-campus apartment more than a year ago. her ex-boyfriend, george hoogly, is charkhed with her murder -- charged with her murder.

the lawyers now asking for access to her medical records, hoping to show that yeardley love had an irregular heartbeat caused by medication and alcohol. both sides agree that a hearing on the matter should be closed to the public. her, the prosecution claims that he beat her to death. the hearing is set for next month. well, today on "america live" we honor the loss of one of the army's most courageous and decorated heros, honor his memory. sergeant christopher demays. after serving 14 tours of duty -- 14 tour t of duty -- the husband and father was killed by a roadside bomb in afghanistan on saturday. he was just 29 years old. he was a ten-year veteran, an elite ranger and the recipient of three bronze stars, and he will go down in army history as one of the soldiers who rescued jessica lynch from her captors in iraq in 2003. trace call the ger with his incredible story. >> reporter: you know, i was

looking through his background, megyn, and all you really can say is wow because as an elite army ranger, christopher really was one of our greatest military men. if you look at his list of accomplishments, it is absolutely exceptional. he was killed by a taliban bomb near kandahar during his 14th a as you said, deployment making him the ranger with the most deployments ever to be killed in action. the previous record was 12. now, those who don't know rangers deploy for 105 days at a time, but they conduct missions every single day, most famously was the part he played in the rescue of jessica lynch. who can forget this night vision video, iraq 2003, that midnight raid into enemy territory, the navy seals, the army rangers going in, finally whisking jessica lynch onto that helicopter and out of enemy territory. that clearly is the most famous one. but if you look at his other awards, the length -- the list

is lengthy. look at this. three times he was awarded the bronze star. three times the iraq campaign medal. twice the afghanistan campaign medal. the meritorious service medal, the army commendation medal, the joint commendation medal. he was one of the first ground soldiers to ever coordinate air attacks by the navy and the air force from the ground. i mean, that's almost exclusively done by the air force. i mentioned he was killed by a roadside bomb outside of kandahar. he was also with two other soldiers who were killed that day, we're talking about first lieutenant ashley white and private first class christopher horns. these are all the epitome, megyn, of american heros. truly. megyn: wow, what a loss, and it is quite something to have the honor of their service to this country. trace gallagher, thank you. >> reporter: yes, okay. megyn: well, homeland security chief janet napolitano grilled on capitol hill over a botched gun-running sting. she claims she never talked to

attorney general eric holder about an operation that cost the lives of at least two of her border agents and that was run by the atf which is overseen by the can't of justice -- department of justice. we investigate. and their baby they say is missing. the investigation resulting in dead ends, and now baby lisa irwin's parents say they will only speak to police if their conditions are met. judge alex is here on what they are and whether the parents have the right to make those demands. plus, one leading democrat said we'd find out what was in the president's health care law once it passed. well, now we're learning about a hidden marriage penalty that critics argue will hurt couples who are heading to the chapel. ♪ going to the chapel, and we're going get married. ♪ i ate breakfast and got heartburn, third day this week. so i took my heartburn pill and some antacids.

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may have disposed of the child's body, perhaps n a body of water nearby the home. and now we learn that the search, that they are searching this body not far away. there are a few pictures of the search teams on a boat on the water floating around on twitter right now. we're going to get those and discuss these less than ten minutes away. well, growing outrage this week to the administration's response to the botched gun-running operation known as fast and furious. this week a congress panel demanded answers from homeland security chief janet napolitano. in particular, her decision not to raise a red flag with attorney general eric holder at the doj the moment she and her department knew that something had clearly gone terribly wrong with the operation. >> when did you first speak with eric holder about fast and furious? >> i don't believe i've ever spoken with eric holder about fast and furious. >> how many, how many agents since you've taken office, how many of your agents have been

killed in the line of duty? >> oh, too many. >> do you know, do you have any number? >> well, i would, i would have to double check, but i would say at least 12. >> how many guns from fast and furious operation were detected crossing the border? >> i do not know. >> how many guns from fast and furious were seized at the border? >> i do not know. >> why is it that an operation that big and that important and that much in the news you don't have the details of? >> well, representative, as you know, it was an atf operation. >> how is it that you can make a claim that the border is now more secure than ever, and yet the obama administration purposely allows literally 2,000 guns to be released knowing that they're going to go to mexico with hundreds of people killed by those weapons, two dead u.s. agents, and yet you don't even

know if we've detected even one of those guns. n., on january 14th you did detect somebody in new mexico. there were eight guns found, they didn't even run a trace on them, and you let those guns go into mexico. i find that absolutely stunning. and for you to have two dead agents and have never had a conversation with everything holder about fast and furious is totally unacceptable. >> no one takes the deaths of agents more seriously than i, and also that one of the reasons that we have not directly dealt with the attorney general on this is he very quickly and appropriately put this matter in the hands of the inspector general. megyn: joining me now to discuss what we just witnessed there is jay alan seculo, american counsel for the center of law and justice, and julian epsteinment i don't know about you guys, but i thought that was a very fascinating exchange just because you can see both sides teed up, you could see how animated the congressman was. and, jay, let me start with you.

is it plausible that janet napolitano did not pick up the phone to talk to eric holder? so our viewers know, we've got two dead border patrol agents, so she's the head of homeland security who oversees these guards, holder's the head of doj which overseas atf. >> and she said, you know, she's lost 12 agents since she's taken office, 17 or 18% of the deaths are these two, and she never had a conversation with the attorney general about a project that she evidently is saying she knew nothing about. you know, i think what's plausible here is that janet napolitano is trying to establish plausible deniability. nobody wants to get near this because it's a disaster. it was a disaster from a policy standpoint and, unfortunately, it was a disaster resulting in the death of two border patrol agents and as the reports just indicated, 200 other people killed at the hands of these, the bullets coming out of these weapons. and for the head of the department of homeland security

to not acknowledge the problem and go to the attorney general and say, you know, i wasn't aware of this, if she wasn't, what were you doing, why are you doing? but to simply say, well, the inspector general's handling it from the department of justice, i'm not going to get involved, i just don't find that plausible. megyn: julian, suspect she ultimately -- isn't she ultimately responsible for the safety of those border patrol agents, and doesn't she have an only gaix to get to the bottom of this for guyses under her supervision ultimately? >> yeah. but i think you and jay are missing the point here. i think she said, and it's clear from the record, that the moment the attorney general found out about this, he not only stopped the program, he not only reassigned the head of the atf and fired some of the front line officers in the phoenix office, but he called for an independent investigation. and had janet napolitano started talking to the attorney general and others, you and jay would be screaming at her for interfering in the middle of an independent

investigation by the inspector generalment remember, this was a program started by the bush administration. the moment the attorney general found out about it, he put a stop to it. he reassigned or fired the people that were involved in it, he called for an inspector general investigation. it still is a puzzle to me. i used to run this government reform committee for six years, and i ran hundreds of investigations. it still is puzzling to me what exactly the critics in this committee is trying to get at. they're trying to create a scandal where there isn't one, and the attorney general did everything by the book including calling for an independent investigation. megyn: go ahead, jay. >> julian, the attorney general of the united states said he wasn't even aware of the program until months ago, and then we found out he actually was aware about it before. look, you know government oversight, you're a good lawyer, and they need your legal help here because what you've got is this plausible deniability issue, and here you're talking about the department of justice and the department of homeland security not talking to each

other when you've got two dead border agents? i'm not saying interfere with an investigation. by the way, there were investigations going on inside of dhs. they decided to stand down on those. that was a decision that the department could make. but we both worked for the government, we know how that works. but the reality is this: to not have conversations between the department of justice, the attorney general of the united states and the secretary of homeland security when you have dead agents is malfeasance at best. [inaudible conversations] megyn: let me just frame the question to you, julian, because the other thing she said was she does not know how many guns crossed the border in this connection with operation fast and furious. shouldn't she know? shouldn't she make that her business when she is the one who's responsible for the border patrol agents who are getting killed by those guns? >> well, i think it's the responsibility now for the inspector general to conduct an investigation -- megyn: but he's just looking into how this happened. >> no, i think he's looking at how the entire system broke down. megyn: i'm going to let you have the floor, but we've got border patrol agents who are out there right now along the border who

are still in danger as a result of these guns. shouldn't she know how many are out there? >> i think she should know how many border agents are out there, and i think we ought to find out how many guns are out there. megyn: that's what i'm asking you. >> she doesn't know the answer. >> yes, we should know that -- >> she should know that. >> let me just correct a couple things that jay said as well because i agree with some of jay's criticisms. but the attorney general did not know about guns walking until the border agent was killed. the moment he found out about it, he called for an independent investigation -- megyn: we don't know. jay and you, i think, are both overstating it because right now we don't know what the attorney general knows. >> there is no information that contradicts that. [inaudible conversations] megyn: this segment isn't about holder, it's about napolitano. >> jay's point that the two agencies should have been speaking to each other, i think that is a fair criticism, and i think if committee were looking at how the agencies did not have the proper communications going on between them before and after the agent was killed, i think that's a fair criticism. that is a breakdown of the

process -- >> and you can't ignore congress' role here. i mean, congress has an oversight role. you did it, you did this. they have the right to have oversight here, and we can't just say congress doesn't have the right to look at this. >> i'm not saying that, jay. i'm saying if they're looking at legitimate questions like the one you point out about how the field offices in the two agencies are not communicating with each other, perfectly valid. if, on the other hand, the committee is looking to create political theater to make these inferences and implications that napolitano didn't care about her agents -- megyn: different story. >> no, they didn't say thatment they want to know what happened. >> for chaffetz to be making. then i think that becomes inappropriate for the committee. megyn: i got it. listen, i appreciate you both being here as always. good debate. >> thanks. megyn: scrambling on these new details on our breaking news, police are searching a pond near the home of lisa irwin. they've searched before, a landfill, obviously, the property, and now they are at a pond searching for this missing baby, gone now for almost a month.

we will have the new information and our guest, judge alex, right after this commercial break. and his political opponents have learned the hard way that new jersey governor chris christie can be one tough guy when he is fired up, but what he just did to cut education costs in one town is the stuff of political legend. that story just ahead. >> if they want to run that risk, you know, i don't think the people will be too happy with them just because they want to continue to pay an overpaid, overprivileged superintendent. >> you can do that? you can cut off the school aid? >> yes, sir. when you have diabetes... your doctor will say get smart about your weight. that's why there's new glucerna hunger smart shakes. they have carb steady, with carbs that digest slowly to help minimize blood sugar spikes. [ male announcer ] new glucerna hunger smart. a smart way to help manage hunger and diabetes.

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america's fastest and most reliable 4g network in over 140 cities. verizon. built so you can rule the air. megyn: fox news alert, we just got off the phone with the police in kansas city, missouri. they have confirmed that they are now searching a small lake, it's called showmere lake, in kansas city, missouri, gnat not far from the home of missing baby lisa irwin, about 10 miles away. the police tell us this was not the result of any tip, they are being thorough, they confirm that they put some k-9 dogs on a

boat among other efforts to see if animals hit on anything and to see if searchers hit on anything in this lake connected to this investigation. all this happening today as the baby's parents now say that they will speak to the police again, which is what the police want, but only if investigators meet certain conditions. but do they have the right to make those demands, and why are they making them in the first place? judge alex is here now. thanks so much for being back here. the police, they've said this to us before, this was not based on a tip. do police just say that, or do you take police at their word when they say something like that? >> no, i don't think there's any reason they would lie about it. they've received and have actually investigated over a thousand tips. they've cleared 800 of them. you know, they've got a ton of investigators, 30-50 investigationers working on this case, so there's no reason they would hide that from you. but it goes against what the

parents are saying, we want them to focus on finding the child, not attacking us. they've got 50 investigators who are following up leads. parents need to start answering some questions. megyn: well, they're clearly pursuing the theory that the parents did something to this child, and i want our viewers to know that the police say right now there are no plans to drain this lake, but they may, they may. and, judge, you used to be a police officer, department you? >> yes. megyn: so, i mean, when you are talking about trying to find, god forbid, the body of a baby, it is literally like looking for a needle in a hay stack for these investigators. >> pretty much. i mean, you know, it's kind of funny, you'd think like, well, if baby's in a lake, how would a dog on the boat detect it, but the body's going to release gases, and a dog will alert on it. yeah, it pretty much is looking for a needle in a hay stack. they've got that gentleman seen walking with a baby in 45-degree weather in diapers.

that expands their search area, but it also brings the search back home because if mother says she put the baby down in purple shorts, are we to believe that the person who kidnapped her took off the shorts and walked away with that baby? megyn: let's say that actually happened. a lot of our viewers raising questions about whether that man could have been an associate of the family. the mother gave the baby, dead or alive, to that man, and he was disposing of the baby. i mean, again, god forbid, it's more morbid, but that's something the police have to look into. >> absolutely. there's a real possibility that there's a shaken baby syndrome. in fact, i read there was a member of the same military unit as her husband who years ago the wife put the baby down, went to sleep, window was open, baby was gone. the wife ended up claiming accidental death, and she's apparently doing prison time. so there's a lot of scenarios that are possible.

it could have been an accident accidental death, and she could have remembered the husband's friend. megyn: the police are demanding, requesting, i should say, that they do so. there'd been reports they wanted to see them without their lawyers. i'm told that's not the case, they just want to see the father separately from the mother and interview them, and that's how they've done all the prior interviews, without the two of them together. the participants say they'll do it -- parents say they'll do it if police appoint different investigators. they think the police are presuming their guilt. do they have the right to make that demand? >> yes. everybody has a right to make that demand. the police are not going to follow through on it. the reason they have the right is you don't have to talk to the police. you have a fifth amendment right to remain silent. so the police can come interview you, and you can say i don't want to talk to you unless you give me an investigator who's got blond hair. but the reality is if your child is missing, i don't care how strongly they accuse you, you

might curse them out, but you would keep talking to them and giving them every piece of information because every minute that goes by the chance of finding your daughter alive grows less and less. megyn: need a quick answer on this, but should the police appoint a different investigator just to get another crack at talking to the parents? >> i would. the investigator's going to be up to the same thing, they're going to ask the same questions. so if that gets them there -- what i suspect, though, i expect the lawyers are going to say, we're out of here. if questions get tough, i don't think they're going to answer them. megyn: it would be interesting if cops say, okay, we'll do that. judge alex, thanks so much for your expertise, sir. we appreciate it. >> thank you, megyn. megyn: see you soon. well, a veteran border patrol agent nabs a young drug smuggler who was sneaking across our border, but federal prosecutorrers put the agent, jesus diaz, behind bars for violating the drug dealer's constitutional rights because of how he lifted the suspect's handcuffed arms.

the growing anger over this ruling ten minutes away. plus, a new investigation underway after police in a protest group go at it, and an iraq war veteran gets hurt. up next, the white house nowe fi weighing in on this. don't miss this story. the aviators. building superhighways in an unknown sky. their safety systems built of brain and heart, transforming strange names from tall tales into pictures on postcards home. and the ones who followed them, who skimmed the edge of space, the edge of heaven, the edge of dreams. and we follow them up there to live by an unbreakable promise,

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megyn: welcome back, folks. moments ago white house press secretary jay carney addressed the angry clashes between oakland police and the occupy wall street demonstrators. the showdown got so bad on tuesday police used tear gas to break up the crowd. now an investigation after an iraq war veteran was critically hurt in the melee. rick leventhal has it all live in our new york newsroom. >> reporter: and oakland's police chief says they're investigating the events leading to injuries of that iraq war veteran as vigorously as they

would a fatal police shooting, but so far it's not clear how scott olson suffered a fractured skull in tuesday's skirmishes. he's been moved from emergency to icu. a veterans' group is claiming he was hit by a tear gas canister. that has not been confirmed. the oakland pd is suggesting that the situation had gotten way out of hand with a sex assault, fights, public urination and sanitation problems drawing rats. demonstrators did return to city hall last night but didn't try to stay, instead, they fanned out into nearby streets. tuesday demonstrators faced off with cops, and wave after wave of tear gas. clouds lingered for hours. officers cleared the plaza, it's now declared off limits for overnight use, and while they were doing it police were pelted by rocks and bottles and other objects and arrested roughly 100 people. a dozen arrests in the new york city last night as hundreds of protesters marched against

traffic to city hall, a move they said was in support of their brethren in oakland. they circled the locked gates at city hall and eventually returned to the park. the demonstrators there again today, but mostly huddled under tarps against the rain. megyn, you mentioned the white house press secretary talking about the president's reaction to these wall street protests. the president, he says, has seen the footage, he's aware of the news, he understands the frustrations have led to this and respects the rights to freedom of speech and expression as long as laws are obeyed. megyn: rick leventhal, thank you. >> reporter: sure. megyn: new questions on president obama's latest take on what's wrong with america. >> we've lost our ambition and imagination and our willingness to do the things that built the golden gate bridge and hoover dam and unleashed all the potential in this country. megyn: does he have a point? we'll talk to a guy who has helped lead some of the country's best-known companies. plus, you should the

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when you're in the doughnut hole it's part of the healthcare law. so it's time to l mpare... and choose the right plan for you. learn more at 1-800-medicare or medicare.gov. megyn: fox news alert just getting reaction from the white house on some possible good news on the economy. less than an hour ago the administration says it's encouraged by new data that showed the economy grew by 2.5% over the summer. nearly double the growth from april to june. but the white house says even faster expansion is needed to recover lost jobs. ed henry is live at the white house today. >> reporter: jay carney just wrapped up his daily briefing

but was clear about saying 2% economic growth is better than it has been in recent quarters. but it's still not high enough to move the needle on unemployment. that's the big number dragging the president dune hang over his 2012 election. he came back from some key battleground states an has not moved this jobs bill any further. >> we all speak enough frequently with economists to know that 2.5% growth while it is positive, is not enough to significantly affect employment. we need to take action to insure that the economy grows faster. >> reporter: so they continue to push the jobs bill even

though the president has been going around congress to make changes to student loans. trying to put more money in the pockets of students, trying to make changes on housing to make it easier for people to refinance. house speaker john boehner said enough is enough with the executive actions. he says house republicans have passed 15 different bills that they say will create jobs and senate democrats haven't moved. >> the president says we can't wait to take action on jobs and i agree. so i'll call on the president today. mr. president, help us with the united states senate to pass these bipartisan common sense measures that will get our economy moving once again. >> reporter: both sides continue to stake out their position. but the bottom line for this president is after weeks and weeks of pushing for the american jobs act he has not gained ground on seeing the

light at the end of the tunnel. megyn: we got some brand-new numbers on the jobs front and the news is not so great. weekly claims for unemployment dropped slightly. that continued for 162 of the last 171 weeks. that is not good news. economists say benefit claims need to fall below 375,000 to signal any real decline in the unemployment rate. ohio is one of the states that's been hit so hard on the jobs front. its unemployment rate stands at 9.1%. ohio saw one of the largest drops in employment losing 21,000 jobs. ohio has one of the highest foreclosure rates in the country. so how can that state turn it all around? a man you may remember named

samuel joe, aka, joe the plumber. he's running for congress. you will remember he hit the national spotlight in the 2008 presidential election when he confronted then senator obama about his economic policies. >> i many a plumber and i work 10-12 hours a day. if i buy another truck and add something else to it and build a company, i'm getting taxed more and more. megyn: joe, thanks so much for being on the program. that exchange became so famous and shot you to celebrity status. did it have anything to do with

your decision to run for u.s. congress? >> it definitely helps. you have name recognition. going around the country and meeting people who would make great representatives unfortunately won't with the same recognition. megyn: why are you doing it? >> it's got to be done. the last 40 years america has been in decline. all the republicans and democrats do is posture. they don't get anything done. like the jobs bill. let's work on our tax system. stop throwing out make believe jobs bills and get to work. stop putting duct tape on pipe. let's take them out and restructure things. megyn: you say you are returning as a reluctant republican. what does that mean? >> it doesn't encompass who i

am. i'm an american first. and that what it comes down to. i'm not out here for the party, i'm here to represent the people in the 9th district. so the system we have in place right now you have to run as a republican or democrat. as an independent or libertarian unfortunately or fortunately the parties haven't grown. trying to run as an independent will be difficult so i have to use the system available me to make it happen. megyn: president obama's statement that you have to spread the wealth around became an albatross on the president's neck. do you feel that the president has lived up to that ideology? >> absolutely. universal healthcare that got passed. he wants to for us or i to give to whoever the federal government need it at the time. that doesn't necessarily mean they are needy.

it could mean wall street, big banks, foreign banks, it could mean hamas. it depend on who they want to give the money to. charity starts at home in the community. back in 2008 they came out with a report that joe biden had only given $3,000 in charity. i tithe more than that in church. megyn: the occupy wall street protesters, around businessman trying to make it on your own. they speak of the great wealth disparity saying they are the 99%, pays the most taxes but also controls most of the wealth. what do you make of the movement? >> i was there last night and i was surprised to find out it had gotten rambunctious. i met some great people there to be honest with you. i met a couple neonazis and a communist or two were hanging out passing out their literature.

but i met people who are scared and desperate and concerned. our government, bush, obama, bailed out these bank, bailed out these corporations, yet they are going to fake my health from me, they will take my job from me. they have to concerns. i told them they need to stand in front of the white house or their senator or congress manage. he thread their statement and now it's time to put across behind that. they have some real points to make. megyn: who are you behind for president? have you made up your mind? >> i'm leaning toward her man. he makes a lot of sense and he's an honest man. i like her man a lot. megyn: thank you so much. good luck to you, sir. all the best. back to our fox news alert on a new search in missouri for missing baby lisa irwin. police are searching a small lake. earlier i said it was 10 miles,

now we are being told it's 2 miles from the irwin family home. baby lisa reported missing two week ago. >> reporter: you mentioned 10 miles, 2 miles. police told us this lake was 2 miles from the irwin hope. we google mapped it and this lake does appear to be 10 miles from the irwin home. so the police did say they are expanding their search and they are not acting on a tip. but 10 miles away seems a good distance to go when you are not acting on a tip. lake chaumiere is not a big body much water. there are teams and boats on top of the lake stan scent dogs. they are not going to drain the lake or send dive teams into the water until one of the cent dogs

gets a hit. the dogs would in fact be able to pick up the scent of a body even if it is inside the water. so that's the question now is what is the next step, butter in continuing to search not only the lake but the woods around the lake. remember this comes on the same day we thought we were going to get a tour of the irwin's house. the lawyers will take us inside the house. it would have been the first time local media had a chance to look around. they cancelled that tour. they also cancelled the press conference saying the parents and family were exhausted so they were not doing anything until monday. again they are saying this is not because of a tip. they are check out the lake, but they have a lot of officers out there and some scent dogs looking on the shore for any sign of that baby that been missing for 25 days. megyn: we have seen them search an abandoned house. we have seen them search a

landfill. we have seen them search the irwin family property, now we see this. one doesn't know what to think except they are trying to be thorough. trace, thank you. how is this for justice? a border agent puts his life on the line, now he's sitting in the slam were while the drug the runner he busts walked free. the news that former presidential candidate john edwards did not want to hear as faces down federal charges. no concealed weapons in this woman's high-speed bus. the g-string and tennis shoes she is wearing leaves little to the imagination. [ man ] i got this citi thank you card

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megyn: john edwards will go on trial. a federal judge in north carolina rejecting his bid to have the charges against him dismissed. he's accused of using campaign funds to couch an affair in 2008. ' the trial set for january. followup to a story we told but yesterday that leaves you wondering whether justice was served. border patrol agent jesus diaz is serving a two-year sentence, accused of roughing up a known drug smuggler, violating that smuggler's federal rights.

his lawyers say he was convicted on trumped up testimony. a group has been working to get this agent freed. thank you for joining us via skype. exactly why do you believe this agent has been wrongly accused and sentenced? the prosecution in this case our federal government says, he ruferred up the smuggler, but he ruffled him up, you don't have the right to put hands on somebody who is handcuffed, and they say he beat hem several times as was placing him under arrest and that's why this agent went to jail. >> this is the same office -- this was formerly journey sutton who prosecuted a number of border patrol agents. for doing their job. what they have done is taken these mexican illegal alien drug smugglers. they justify why they bring in

the narcotics, then they prosecute them. this is a message prosecution. but this goes back to the clinton administration, this type of prosecution has gone on for years. they did this to tell the agents, you are not going to do your job. now, you can't even handcuff them. what's scary is anybody can turn on the program cops that's been on tv or years and per night see lifting of cuffs of perpetrators and suspects. megyn: what is the evidence that he inappropriately ruffled up. arrest.can often be rough. they are not always pretty and nice. but there is a line they can cross and they can't. what is the evidence that this agent ruffled up this admitted drug smuggler. he's only 15 years old, the suspect. >> at the time. megyn: to the point where it's inappropriate. >> these agents contradict themselves in their testimony at trial.

they claim this narco terrorist as i call them, he lifted his cuffs. the mention can consulate claims abuse the same dates. but the agents did report it within an hour like they are suppose to. they went to water burger. cooked their stories up, then they went back and get the agent who stood next to him, testified he didn't see anything. so the question is, why didn't they state something before they went off duty? why didn't they say something if they had a problem with this? megyn: what motivation would these agents have for turning against their fellow agent? >> that's a very good question. they are not from the same shift. two of them have been fired for failing to take a urine test. there is a lot of questions that can arise from this. it's something that congress needs to get to the bottom of. it's clear. these guys many of them admitted perjuring themselves. they changed their stories

repeatedly but nobody has been prosecuted for perjuriy except mr. diaz whose story has never changed. why are they coming out with this? i don't know. were their hands in the cookie jar? megyn: you have a member of congress duncan hunter writing to eric holder saying you need to set the record straight why two years imprisonment is the proper punishment for this agent. >> if you are law enforcement you have to basically be away from the general population because they become a target and especially if you are a border patrol agent, you become a high-risk target. for their safety they have to spend 23 hours a day, 7 days a week, for him it's now 8 months. diaz scenes was convicted was ordered into custody.

8 months in a 6 x 12 foot cell. 20 minutes a week with his wife. no other contact except with guards. he's cut off from the world completely. megyn: when did he start serving this sentence? >> upon conviction. so it's 8 months. we are talking february. megyn: he has over a year to go. >> they are saying because of time served he will do another 6 months in a facility, then he will go for 6 months to a halfway house. he has a daughter that was born in march who he has never even held. so i mean imagine how he's feeling going through this whole thing knowing that all he did was lift cuffs. everybody elsed, admitted to perjuring themselves including the drug smuggler and he's the one that's in prison. it's a shame yet our department

of justice continues this pattern. i hope the congress gets to the bottom of this. this something senator cornyn said years ago, they needed to put a stop to this. i hope the house and the senate stops playing political games and starts taking a look at why dopers are getting prepasses and immunity for bringing this poison across the u.s.-mexico border. megyn: thank you for being here, we appreciate. all the best. we are take your thoughts on it at kelly@foxnews.com. the new jersey school superintendent flaunting salary guidelines and raking in the big bucks until governor chris christie stepped in and told them to slash that salary. wait until you see what the governor did when they refused.

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megyn: we have scene update on the search for missing baby lisa irwin. police were searching a lake. we got word that police wrapped up that search and they did not find anything of significance. they have been thoroughly searching many areas around the family home. ohio cops involved in a crazy

high-speed chase get quite a shock. >> reporter: bainbridge police stopped this car in early october. >> we caught the vehicle going 110 miles an hour. pursuit started. the driver would not stop for signals. >> reporter: after reaching speeds of 128 miles per hour, officers used stop sticks to puncture the tires to bring the chase to an end. >> step out of the vehicle! >> reporter: when the officers stopped the car she got out of the car wearing only tennis shoes and a g-string. >> in 26 years i don't ever recall having a subject in such a state of undress and driving.

>> reporter: she was handcuffed and placed in a cruiser. police say she became increasingly combative and kicked the cruiser's win de. she is charged with failure to comply, speeding and criminal damage. >> being a policeman you never know what you see sometimes, and this is one of those times. megyn: the police say she has been convicted of drunk driving twice. 128 miles an hour. the on thing that would have made that story better is if it would have broken during "studio b" are shepard smith. word that bernie madoff and his

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megyn: convicted ponzi schemer bernie madoff speak out from prison. his wife said the couple tried to kill themselves on christmas eve in 2008. but there is a dispute aut that apparently. >> reporter: bernie said he can live with the anger of those he defraud, but the fact that his family doesn't talk to him and hates him is the hardest part about being in prison. this interview conducted by barbara walters. it was two hours. but cameras are not aloud in the jail. he said he's relieved to be free being discovered as a fraud. he said i know i will die in prison.

i have lived the last 20 years of my life in fear. now i have no fear because i'm no longer in control of my life. he has not spoke on his wife ruth since their son mark committed suicide. before that ruth would visit him in prison every week. afterwards she asked him to let her go. bernie madoff says, quote, ruth doesn't hate me. she has no one. iting not fair to her. she lost her first son. she is a devoted wife and didn't care about the money. ruth in a separate interview says on "60 minutes" in december of '08 she and bernie on christmas eve tried to kill themselves but failed. listen. >> i don't know whose idea it was. but we decided to kill ourselves because it was so horrendous what was happening. we took pills and woke up the

next day. it was very impulsive. and i'm glad we woke up. >> reporter: she says they took ambien. bernie madoff says he no longer has suicidal thoughts in prison. megyn: trace, thank you. new questioned about president obama's latest take on what is wrong with america. >> been to beijing airport or driven on high speed rail in asia or europe? what's changed? we have lost our ambition and manage nation and our willingness to do the thing that built the golden gate bridge and hoover dam. and unleashed all the poe new england this country. megyn: mayor key argues has lost its ambition and imagination.

that comes a couple weeks after he said we quote lost our edge. does he have a point? we wanted to ask the author of "the change maker, preserving the promise of america." al has been successful in building five successful corporations including walled disney, marriott corp and northwest airlines. the book is available now. the change maker. you outline your history and what you think this country needs to do to recover. but let's start with where the president starts. we as americans, the problem we are having is we lost our ambition and imagination. >> i think he has gone soft. you did a segment about a man who lost his life doing service to this country. one of several hundred thousand doing that every day. last year americans gave $400 billion in charity. that's up 25% of what the government extracts in taxes, in

fees from us. and anybody who has traveled this country and traveled the world knows that there is no people on earth who have a greater spirit of volunteerism than americans. i don't know who the president was talking about. megyn: what do you believe is at core of what's happening in this country? in your book you say i do believe the country is in trouble. >> i think the country is in trouble because we stand a chance of being the first generation that does not leave more opportunity to the next one. and that is the promise of america. i think the problem is -- it's pretty evidence. when 15 person of the american people say they have confidence in the government -- we have a leadership crisis. we have the ingredients to be successful. we have an incredibly strong culture. we have great resources. an enduring constitution. and quite a network of

institutions. but we lack leadership. megyn: you have been the man to go in and provide leadership. your stint at northwest airlines became a case study for students at harvard business school. you say leadership matters. what exactly does that mean? what should we be looking for and where do we find it? >> we live in the world's most dynamic society sat probably the most dynamic time for it. the job of a leader is to help people and institutions adapt to change. the second thing is that a leader has to bring people together. i call it the alchemy of leadership. people working together have much greater power than just some of the parts. in the last thing is a leader owes fidelity to his constituents or her constituents. in other words, they should be if i disharies.

they should sacrifice their ownself interests to those they represent. that happened in the last century. in the 1960s, being brought up in washington, d.c., my father was a civil servant. i saw this firsthand. we don't see that any more now. megyn: you talk about how you were suppose to be on a fatal plane flight. you were listed as dead. you found yourself in the middle of a coup in the philippines. you have been around the block a time or two. how do you get to the point where you find that person. how do we find the person? president obama is saying put country before party. does he mean it? do you believe this across reflect it and if not, who does need it? who will do that in today's hotly contested political environment? >> the mistake we are make is waiting -- it would be nice in

an abraham lincoln or a churchill were to show up. we see people marching in the streets taking action. the people replaced 168 people in the legislature last year. and we have to take alcohol of the agenda ourselves. megyn: regular old citizens. >> that what built this country. megyn: how, though? for the folks thinking i can't make a difference, i'm just one guy laying pipe in ohio. joe the plumber. >> i saw vote plummer and i applaud him. but those people banded together in the tea party movement, whether you like the ideology or not. but they made something happen. there were 96 new republicans and 10 democrats that went into the congress. we have a ca -- re of self-serving, self-perpetuating political careers. we have got to start to break

their hold on this country. and at the same time the answers are not to be found in these two extreme ideologies. we had a third way which was some kind of bipartisanship which to me was basically an accommodation between two bankrupt ideologies. we need a fourth way which i call the american way. how about a common sense sea general today whose purpose is to -- agenda is to do the best for the most. megyn: common sense. it's so novel. al, thank you for being here. the book is called "the change maker." check it out. coming up. the final days of the michael jackson manslaughter trial. the defense attorneys are calling their last few witnesses. they could rest their case today. why an addiction specialist could be dr. conrad murray's best hope of going free. >> would you diagnose michael

jackson as addicted to demerol based strictly on these documents in my hand, yes or no. >> probably not. ♪ [ male announcer ] sitting. waiting. hoping. that's a recipe for failed investing. open an e-trade account and open doors, seize opportunities, take action with some of the most powerful yet easy-to-use trading tools on the planet all built to help you maximize the potential of every dollar you invest. successful investing isn't done by throwing ideas against the wall and hoping. it's done by lowering your costs and raising your expectations by using unbiased research and powerful screeners to build a diversified portfolio with stocks, bonds, mutual funds, and every etf sold. and we'll help you every step of the way. with 5-star research and free education covering everything from the basics to advanced investing strategies. start now and we'll give you up to $500 and let you trade free for 60 days.

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to learn about medicare plans that may be right for you. with some plans, you can enroll right over the phone. don't wait. call now. megyn: "kelly's court" is back in session. we are coming down to the home stretch in the michael jackson man salute were trial of his private doctor. defense attorneys calling their final witnesses today. one an addiction specialist. other, the one we have all been waiting for, an international expert on the powerful sedative propofol which is blamed for stop can the singer's heart. it's part of the defense strategy that portrays jackson as a drug addicted insomniac who gave himself the lethal dose of propofol. joining me is lis weihl and mark eiglarsh. what they are trying to establish appears to be through

this adeck specialist that michael jackson was an addict. and the secondly, this propofol expert, the prosecution calls the number one most respected propofol expert in the country. and they are going to be dueling testimony over what, exactly? >> let many go back to the specialist on addictions. he was talking about demerol. which is different. so the theory has got to be he was addicted to demerol, was going through withdrawal. the autopsy did not find demerol. it found propofol on. then that makes sense, okay then you bring it propofol expert to say someone addicted to propofol would take it under any kind of circumstance. but even if the experts weigh each other out the experts will look at the common sense aspect

which is dr. murray was the one that administered the propofol, favorite to michael jackson then left the room. megyn: i don't know. they are going to say he was an addict addicted to dem control but he couldn't get demerol because none was found his system and therefore he had to jones up with propofol? >> it doesn't have to be that specific. what they will say is, of all, this is an addict. to many of the jurors it devalues michael jackson. some people don't recognize the disease. the american medical association does. they will show he was desperate. an addict does desperate things. who would inject themselves with follow snrr an addict. why? how? when? what was his thought process? the defense doesn't have to put that out there. megyn: there is a reason mark is making this argument. it doesn't matter about the specific admict question, what

matters is how an admict general would act. the defense put up a an detective expert. and the prosecution said do you know anything about this case? >> did you read through the defendant's interview with the police? >> i did not. >> did you reference the defendant's statements about what took place or what type of care was being give up as it might relate to drug addiction. >> you may answer. >> i did not. >> did you ask for it so you can make an informed decision here? >> an informed decision with respect to what? >> you tell me. did you ask for -- >> it many argue -- it's argumentative. >> you were not interested it? >> i did not view that as

pertinent to my expertise on opiate addiction treatment and withdrawal. megyn: should any witness be doing that? >> it doesn't make any sense. the fact that he wouldn't have gone through -- usual talking about dr. murray's trial. you don't look at two hours of audiotape or bother to read that transcript? then he went on to testify about the physician-patient relationship. wait a second, so you are not going to look at that relationship in the word of the doctor himself? >> the bottom line is -- the judge could take judicial notice that michael jackson is dependant and addicted to drugs. so the prosecution going after this windsness as bad as he appears to me doesn't matter. they can easily prove the point that he's eans an addict. the tornado watch him slurring his words changed everybody's

perspective. megyn: can they say this what is happens when you are addicted to demerol and you go through severe withdrawal and it can influence life or death. is that what they are trying to say? >> it doesn't have to be that specific. >> it does, mark. >> it can just be someone with a history of abuse, the doctor leaves the room for two minutes. the doctor who wouldn't give him any more propofol. and michael jackson was desperate to get it. when the doctor leaves the room, that was his opportunities. boom he hits the syringe, dead. >> you said sit, history of abuse. conrad murray should have gone michael jackson had this history of abuse. it does have to be specific. and it has to be specific because the jurors will remember what they did in opening statements. they said in opening they were going to shove it was propofol. they have to give that up now and go on this demerol tangent.

megyn: just listening to us on this panel. there is confusion. dueling experts. do i think that guy caused the death or don't i? do i think that guy should have been a better doctor and prevented this death? and the that how the jurors think? >> at the end of the day the experts are pretty much out the window. he left the room and by the way he omitted a very important fact. michael jackson was taking propofol. i'm not going to tell that to the emts or treating physicians. >> it only takes one juror who has sympathyer to conrad murray that he's otherwise a decent doctor. did michael jackson cause his own death? megyn: one of the witnesses who testified on his behalf kissed him on the forehead. that's how much he loved him.

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♪ megyn: a 2,000 pound weapon salvaged from black beard's ship. it has been on off the north carolina coast for 300 years.

it's part of a project that has collected 280,000 artifacts. a major battle tbliewg new jersey again governor chris christie assistant school superintendent. the cool chief reef fusing to take a pay cut despite earning more than the state salary cap. >> reporter: when chris christie says do it, he means it. a school district ordered to stop overpaying its superintendent or else, the district didn't do it. now the got governor says the or else will cost $3.3 million in school aid. he gets a school are you of $220,000. way too much, according to christy. so the district was told to slash the salary by $43,000. savings was to go to student

instruction. but the school district balked. first it filed a lawsuit saying the governor had no authority but that didn't work. then the school district hired a lawyer. the district caused in and kept on paying the superintendent even thought it was warned it would lose funding. governor christie called the superintendent a poster boy for greed. on an interview he vowed to withhold state aid. >> if they want to run that risk, i don't think the people will be too happy with him just because they want to continue to pay scene overpaid, over privileged superintendent. >> you can do that. you can cut the school aid? >> yes, sir. >> i looked up the law, the governor has the authority. either the superintendent takes a haircut or his students will sufficient a $3.6 million loss. the superintendent or his attorney wouldn't talk to me. megyn: a gone controversy

concerning red light cameras. charges that they have been put ahead of road safety.

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