based on holiday sales. >>renda: gary b? >> he did not say what direction though on the 25% (laughter) >> all right. i don't like it. >> brenda: what we do like is neil cavuto on business, that's next. >> here we go again, another bailout, rally and another nail in capitalism's coffin and over the top, handing out massive gains after european leaders hand out massive piles of cash to keep greece from handing the world a dose of debt reality. so maybe we should hand it to the wall street occupiers, they got it right on capitalism and these days it is all wrong. but not for the reasons they're ranting. charles payne, charlie gasperino, and kristin benz. charles payne, what do you think, maybe--

>> and with charlie gasperino always rallying against. >> he only does that to keep making-- >> it's working. >> i've got to build that addition to my house sometime. >> dave: but you know what? there was that element to that and listen, we know that the stock market, even though it knows better loves this kind of stuff and the market is short-term and i say short-term, looking from here to the next minute and there was some good news this week, too, the grosse pointe woods numbers and i called this rally the dirty fingernails rally and started three weeks ago and caterpillar great numbers, norfolk southern. things that tell you our economy did go double dip, but you know, to the bottom line, yes, the bailout, obviously, wall street loves them and we know that wall street loves them, but there are other good elements to the rally, too. >> without getting too much in the weeds. there was a technical reason-- >> you love the weeds. >> live there, with the wall street-- not, but there was a lot of

short covering going on and beating that the market was going to fall and you had some mildly positive grosse pointe woods report and the street hits the button and short and we should point out that stock traders, many start covering the shorts and stocks go up. and buy the stocks that cover the the shorts. and point out that stock traders are notoriously stupid and short sighted and hit the buttons. >> who is dumber, the people inside the buildings? the ones outside? >> you know, there's a-- you could toss that one up. >> and when i grow-- >> let me say, who is higher than a kite right now-- >> when i broke the tarp story, the market went up over the next four months and went down to 6,000, the market went to-- >> good point. >> and a number seized on that deal, a failed vote in the conversation and they ended up doing that. >> and then, what do you make of the markets rallying out at essentially a bailout? >> you know, actually, in this

case, i think it's great news. you know, i understand this, and this isn't about government, but i don't think, you know, you-- you're a bad capitalist if you are happy that government solved some of its problems. this was europe bailing out greece and it wasn't bailing out private banks. >> wait, wait, with all due respect. who holds the greek paper? the-- >> the greek papers is being held, sir, being held by french banks, italian banks and by the way, this is a way to bail out italy and spain, that's the next and greece is off the table. >> and that's a good thing. i think that's a good thing, charlie. >> and you ever hear of moral hazard. >> sure, i have. >> and creating the road here. >> the government is causing problems and starting them out. >> and guys, i want to bring

in-- won't shut up and kristin, if you can give your take on this. we're celebrating this obviously, whether you buy or reject the fact that capitalism might have been compromised here. >> everybody is breaking out the champagne corks here, actually i look around and they were supposed to rally and the greek economy is going to come back, yadda, yadda, and these people don't exactly look like they are ready to work. >> how are you going to grow the economy? >> i wouldn't mind, i built a career on it, so. but your worry is what then? >> well, to the point is that these bailouts are always temporary and it's so amazing that we saved the banks around the world three years ago and now we're at, we're saving them again and ultimately capitalism will have to work and ultimately the banks will have to fail because you run out of other people's money and you present so much of it and then it's worthless anyway, it's an exercise of futility. >> you realize they're going to be printing money and that's the bottom line.

>> who prints money, everywhere? >> who knows. the ecb not exactly-- >> this is a dicey situation and i'll say this, it's clear exactly what's going on in the air. if you look at the plan on the table right now, it's being represented by a trade group, it's voluntary and there's nothing written in stone here other than the fact that it looks like they're moving forward and guess what, every stock trader in wall street, hits the button, buy. >> whether you're for or against, it does set up a series of expectations and i think that goes back to the fall of 2000 and we began bailing out the financial plans and extended later on to the car companies and extended on to, you know, cash for clunkers and in other words, people get a sense of expectation na when push comes to shove, the government will shove some more money their way and take care of them. and i worry more about that longer term, whatever happens to the markets in the interim. what say you? >> well, i agree with that, and i think there has been

some moral hazards created, but we have to accept here that what has occurred is on the scale of a national disaster and somewhat a natural disaster. no one person to blame. it's not that dissimilar again of the floods that hit naturals. should we feel bad about the fact that they weren't high enough earlier? this is one of those-- >> where do you draw the moral hazard lines? i mean, let's say it's greece right now and then i'm looking at, italia here and they're punching each other in the parliament, which i kind of admire it, but nevertheless, their problem, portugal is a problem and ireland is a problem and spain is a problem, on and on and where do you draw the line on these so-called hazards? >> well, hopefully, it's at our shores. i think what we really need to worry about is will the u.s. government be bailing out places like illinois, we haven't seen it yet. >> will the u.s. government continue to bail out moment owners? mitt romney made an interesting statement when he

talked about foreclosures, we have to allow we shouldn't do the ridiculous plan. we'll get to it in the section segment. >> moral hazard means there is no consequence to your decision making and that's the problem with the bailouts, you don't act rational. you act with something in the back of your mind i'm going to be bailed out. >> bottom line, capitalism when failure is part of the equation. and when it doesn't work, that's when the occupy wall street-- >> kristin, do you relate with the occupy wall street kids or-- >> for some reason i couldn't see kristin go down to-- >> i could. >> you should have seen me in my hippy days. >> no, i'm nor capitalism and that's what made the country great and occupy wall street is just absolutely ridiculous, these two go to work, get a job and pay off the student loan and teaching about capitalism. >> you forgot to say, take a shower. >> don't let go of that. they're disgusting and i've

been down there. >> and i did not find that-- >> it is gross and i feel sorry for the people that live there, i really do. >> all right. when we come back, so much of learning a lot from the solyndra bankruptcy. new reports that more tax breaks are coming for more green companies and the take, time to take a break from those breaks, and that's coming up at the top of the hour, up next, from bank bailouts to housing bailouts and yet, another government push to help home owners by pushing them into bankruptcy. and according charlie gasperino is worried about this, forget desperate house wives, this makes us seem just desperate. so i'm glad it's with fidelity. they offer me one-on-one guidance to help me choose my investments.

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>> and good morning everyone. good to have you here, this is a fox news alert. live from america's news headquarters, i'm jamie colby. this has been a deadly day in afghanistan today. u.s. officials believe 13 american troops operating under n.a.t.o. have been

killed in a car bomb attack in kabul. the taliban claiming responsibilities. the deadliest of three separate incidents today by afghan insurgents. and the white house ordering an independent review of the energy department's program that gave the now bankrupt solar company. a 535 million dollar loan and house republicans have been conducting their own investigations and solyndra was the first recipient of a loan guarantee under the energy department program funded by the economic stimulus bill. i'm jamie colby. keep it here on the fox news channel, the most powerful name in news. >> neil: are you late on your mortgage payments? why don't you just go bank result. the white house is considering a plan to let troubled home owners in bankruptcy pay their mortgages interest-free for five years and does this invite yet another crisis?

>> absolutely. the problem with all of these deals that obama is proposing is that no one really has skin in the game. and so, you need to have something for the lender and the borrower. an equity sharing arrangement. so far nobody cares. >> and it's not to-- for just the disaster cases. he has a plan up there for those who are paying their mortgages, but you argue, charles, regardless it's a bad move. >> it's a bad move. listen, we can see where it's going. the president doesn't care about the lenders, to be frank with you. and taking the little steps to say ultimately. fannie mae controls 5 million mortgages and if you like less than 70,000 or 80,000, that's it, you bought a house at $400,000, it's worth 200,000, that's all you owe right now and wouldn't be surprised to see an as a hail mary, this is beyond refinancing i'm taking about reducing principal to--

>> and talking about the fannie and freddie thing? >> the not yet. >> this particular. >> this particular one, if you're current on your home, on your mortgage and it's underwater where you can't get refinanced from the bank. >> neil: the five year bankruptcy thing for those who are current. >> the problem with this and i feel bad for people who are current and may not be current in three weeks because they're losing their job, but, it's moral hazard, again, to keep bailing out home owners, why did the mortgage crisis, the housing crisis occur? because people were crazy enough it to believe if they make, i'm not talking, forget about the fraud you don't have to be defrauded here, an interesting thing, mortgage broker comes to me and says i'll give you 2 million dollars for a home you can't afford. and me i would say i don't want any part of it, but there are a lot of people, a lot of people that said, yeah, i can get a loan, this guy will, you know, screw up, screw up the paper work and i can't afford it and still going to take

that home loan and that's moral hazard. >> neil: what i worry about, again, regardless what you think about it, to sort of prolong the agony and on and on we go and on and on we go. drip, drip, drip, drip. >> yeah, there is that, and it is troubling that none of the solutions that either side has proposed has really dealt in any large way, but there is something like 15 million american homes underwater now. >> what would you do? what do you do? if we had to correct this mess and said don't do a damn thing, let it work itself out and the other side forget principal, what would you do? >> i think that, probably the obama administration plans, these are drip, drip plans and not micking a difference. in a way we're allowing it to fix itself and that's the problem, that's the problem. >> the guys hurting the worse, it's not-- >> charlie, it's not dragging, it's not dragging it out. there's lots of homes going into foreclosures, and

foreclosure levels-- >> foreclosures have almost stopped in many states because it's actually. wait a second. foreclosures have almost stopped in many states because of the nationwide investigation into robo signing. >> and the problem is, charlie, that's a good point. >> here is the the problem, the government should-- you want, you want a quick and dirty, basically, a clearing of the market or you want a drip, drip, drip in the next ten years, what is worse. >> listen if, do you a quick and dirty clearing of market. 15 million people losing their homes, it's not going to be just quick and not going to be a little bit dirty, it's going to be a disaster. >> despite what the fed has said. what we're looking at. all i know, with the mortgage rework programs that we had. there have been four prominent ones. folks, default all over again, in other words, despite the rework, they're still knee deep in trouble and they're still not being helped and we still don't see much improvement. so, my argument against that

is, well, cease and desist, it isn't doing the job. >> it's the not doing the job. >> neil: go ahead, kristin, first, i'll let you answer that. >> thanks. >> it's not doing the job, there should be some sort of equity sharing program where you buy a house for 300 grand, it's worth 150. you come in, the lender and the buyer split it 50%. so, there's still some sort of, you know, skin in the game and that's the problem. >> neil: all right. a and-- >> i think it's not a bad plan. it's just too complex. with all due respect to charlie, the best thing to do is to allow this thing another two or three years to recover. we can do. >> oh, i'm-- >> two or three years of avoid-- >> air just going to-- >> charles payne says at least another five years. >> unless you let the markets settle the prices and it's going to hurt, it's going to-- >> the same market that welcomes bailout for itself? >> it's a different market. no, it's not. >> gimme, gimme, i agree, i'm

saying it's a real problem. >> neil: the guys you cover and love, and become socialist. >> of course, i've written a whole book about it. >> neil: trying to take it up for you. what i'm saying is then, you're being selective who gets, bailed out. >> you're absolutely right. that's the argument for bailing out home owners and it's actually a pretty good argument. didn't we bail out wall street? and you know, it's hard to make the argument-- >> a slippery slope, once we start it doesn't stop. >> the only thing is, suppose we didn't bail out the banks, what would happen, how would we know? >> that's the problem. none in the fox hole. >> neil: what do you think, charles. >> jobs, jobs, unleash the incredible potential of country and stop the war of success and the housing market will recover more than any gimmick could. >> neil: and this guy, young enough, may be president of

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>> ronald reagan, winston churchill. colonel sanders. think quick. what do they all have in common. well, they all changed the world after turning 60 some of them well after 60, but the message at ibm seems to be you can keep that change. and because, the ceo on the way out, after turning, that's the traditional retirement age

and passing over a fellow named steve mills who ran software division also, turning 60 this year, instead going to 54-year-old virginia getting that job. i'm sure she's very, very qualified, but didn't hurt that she was also not 60. >> you know, this might go back to the last presidential election, somehow, john mccain was psyched out of using his experience, psyched out of using his wisdom. psyched out of using all that and tried to blame the game of outside earen coming for a long time. i think there is going to this. >> neil: it's not that they lose their jobs at ibm at 60 it's highly recommended in management that at 60 you step aside. and it's interesting though, we're looking at the retirement age we want to push back and all and some companies are saying this one is fairly young and the closer i get to that number the more worried i get. >> and i am, too, and i say 60

is the next 50. >> i say 30. >> some saying the poeople are there for a while and this woman at 54 she'll be there six years. >> six years. >> and remember the stan o'neal, replaced john thain. one of the things, he was young if he were there longer merrill-lynch would have been out of business. he was the absolute worst ceo they've had. >> and i don't like it decided by the calendar. >> yeah, i agree, in fact actualingly i think we've got far too many vibrant baby boomers headed, teachers, cops and firefighters retiring at 55. what a terrible waste when we send the message to the folks, your career is over when you hit 55, 6 o65. a lot of people have a lot left to give. >> they want to collect the pension funds and gold plated. >> we can't afford. >> absolutely. >> that's unfortunate. it's unfortunate. >> all right, kristin?

>> well, i think a lot of people are going to be forced to work longer, to your point. you know, i talk to so many people up there and fresh that need wisdom and need a rabbi and i think it's all about performance base, it's not a number. it's now you perform through your shareholders. >> when i was 30 this would not have bothered me in the least. >> join the club. >> all right, i want to thank charlie very, very much in the meantime, proof that ibm might have it wrong. ceo's over 60 delivering stock returns for the ages, they may be oldies and deliver the gui goodies. the names are coming up. [ dr. banholzer ] every once in awhile

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is the human element. ♪ but they also go beyond banki. we installed a ge fleet monitoring system. it tracks every vehicle in their fleet. it cuts fuel use. koch: it enhances customer service. it's pretty amazing when people who loan you money also show you how to save it. not just money, knowledge. it's so much information, it's like i'm right there in every van in the entire fleet. good day overall. yeah, i'good. come on in. let's go. wow, this is fantastic. ge capital. they're not just bankers. we're builders. they helped build our business. >> our gain with stocks they like and all ceo's over 60. charles what have you got? >> the company is old they will ride it for a long time. >> it is a good pick and looks cheap. not as cheap as caterpillar

which is growing faster and a better company. >> that's your pick. what are you going? >> marriot. an expensive looking stock that is actually cheap. he's one of the toughest guys in business and if you are bullish on the economy hotels will do exceptionally well. what do you think of that? >> i like marriot and the better pick is windham. look at both companies and windham has a better balance sheet and operating margin. >> what are you going with? >> i am going with fed ex. scen years old and company is amaze market leader and and uptake in the economy stocks are soaring. >> fred smith is a business hero and that stock never seems to move. >> story of my life. >> it is a great company maybe for dividends but not the