>> judge jeanine: tonight on "justice," baby lisa's family moves to a secret location. the private investigator for the family wild bill stanton is here. day 26 and baby lisa still missing. >> they were crying mommy, where is pumpkin, where is lisa? >> what do her brothers know he about what happened the night she vanished? and a mysterious call from the parent's missing cell phone. >> was that you? >> no, i was sleeping. >> who made it and why? plus, the san diego mansion death. murder or suicide will a new autopsy review the truth about

rebecca zahau coming up tonight on "justice." welcome, alexis. tell us, what is the latest? >> thank you for having me. it has been 26 days and there is no sign of lisa. the two older brothers who are five and eight were scheduled to meet with police on friday, yesterday. did not not happen. law enforcement said they wanted to take dna to rule them out. there is evidence in the house they wanted to match them with to rule them out and maybe this would provide clues as to what happened but it is not happening. there was a shakeup in the legal team. the local lawyer is out. the national lawyer, very famous, he is still on.

he said they will try to reschedule the meeting for next week with the kids but right now it is not happening. >> there is talk about megan wright this new person who says that her phone was called from the irwin cell phone in the middle of the night, the night lisa went missing. what can you tell us about that? >> she has been in the neighborhood before. definitely an interesting character. she has shocking bright pink hair and in fact people are saying that she was there the day after baby lisa was found missing and in the neighborhood and people recognized her from foot and around the house. she has now come forward and says someone called her phone, there was a 50 second message left. she won't say that she checked it or are what she heard but she is also saying value enforcement has visited her four times to talk to her about this. >> judge jeanine: what is interesting if law enforcement visited her they are pretty

clear that call went to her. thank you so much for being with us this evening. >> thank you. >> judge jeanine: now, to the missing cell phones could they hold the key to lisa's disappearance. on october 4 around 4:15 a.m. frantic parents deborah bradley and jeremy irwin call 911. they tell police their 10 month old baby lisa has been kidnapped from her crib and whoever took her also stole their three cell phones. >> where were they? >> on the counter. >> when did you realize that he were not there. >> i started screaming call 911 and we were panicking and i said where is the phone. >> judge jeanine: later during questioning investigators tell deborah and jeremy that someone made a call. at 2:38, jeremy is still at

this starbucks doing electrical work. police accuse deborah. >> that was you? >> no, i was sleeping. >> who could that have been? >> whoever took her. >> they suggest investigators were testing them because they say their cell phones were blocked, unable to make outgoing calls. >> i hadn't paid the cell phone bill when it was dousso due, se phones were restrict. >> so when police say there was a call made. >> your response is what? >> that is not possible. >> could you make any calls. could you even make local calls. >> no, i couldn't. >> judge jeanine: yesterday this woman surfaced. megan wright. police contacted her because the call was made from irwin's missing cell phone the night baby lisa disappeared.

and whoever called dialed wright's number. >> i received a phone call or my phone did the night that baby lisa went missing. apparently a 50 second phone call. i don't know who answered it or what was said or it was on the other end of the phone. >> megan has been interviewed by police four times. >> i told them i have been through the neighborhood with my boyfriend. didn't know the family. didn't recognize the pictures. had never seen baby lisa until i saw her on the news. >> judge jeanine: who made the call from the cell phone that night and why did they insist their phones could not make outgoing calls? mark fuhrman, retired detective, lapd and joey jackson is with us. criminal defense attorney. gentlemen, welcome. thanks for being here. a phone call from the irwin's phone at about the time that the baby lisa goes missing. what do you make of that?

>> well, the phone call, judge, we know it was made. it is absolute. the police say they have the records. >> judge jeanine: agree with that joey? >> i agree it was made. after that i disagree. >> we know it is made and we have the mother deborah bradleye adamant that she didn't make the phone call. the phones were all taken with the baby and the lights left on except for the baby's room which was dark. the recipient has a 50 second phone call that leaves no message and no voice. >> what is amazing here, mark, is that the recipient says she didn't answer and didn't know who called and what was said and doesn't know who answered it. how could see not know who has her cell phone? >> what is the relevance of all this. what does it mean to the further investigation. >> judge jeanine: this is the night the baby disappeared. >> what do we know about the message that was left?

nothing. what do we know about who made the call? nothing. what do we know about how this ties to the ultimate event? nothing. >> the relevance is that the mother the only person that actually looks like a suspect in the case is adamant that the cell phones were taken. the cell phones and baby do not go together. >> what if they were, right? a perpetrator comes in here and a everything about this is some what strange, you would agree with that. >> everything. >> in accordance with the be that farr stuff in addition to having taken the baby also to have taken the cell phone. >> it is only strange because of deborah bradley. everything that is strange comes out of her mouth. >> the irwins say the kidnappers must have made a phone call because they couldn't make a call. why would a kidnapper call megan wright. what is your theory on that? >> could be something as simple as perhaps the number was

already stored in the phone. perhaps as you are going through and looking through the phone you press the button and it happens to go with h her. >> a misdial. >> could be something that simple. >> you are a detective. this woman was in the neighborhood. >> i agree with joey in that record and could be something as many as you put it into bag and put pressure on it and dials a number off of the address book in the phone. that the' fine. when you look at this number you have to consider when you look at all of the phone numbers from their cel cell phs this possibly a number that was one digit off. >> they say they don't know. >> but maybe it was a number stored in her phone. >> why would she have her number? she didn't know her. >> every aspect of this all comes back to deborah bradley.

if the phones were not taken would it change the kidnapping, would it change the circumstances? it only changes it in deborah bradley's mind. >> judge jeanine: but mark, don't you think that the phone call is a prais trace to the pe involved whether it is the kidnappers or de deborah. >> how do they explain the statement that they couldn't make phone calls because they didn't pay the bill. >> someone did make the outgoing call but maybe it was their belief at the time that they were not able to do it. they could have been under the plausible assumption that the phone was not able to be outgoing, however, whoever used the phone was able to make it go that way. saying it couldn't and it did means nothing in this case. >> there is something here with deborah bradley. >> , she is interrogated after a polygraph and accused of certain aspects of this being

involved or lying about certain items in this case. even after she is confronted with the cell phone call being made it is an absolute that the cell phone call was made then she goes in the media for two and a half weeks and still says that they couldn't make outgoing calls. so that was so important to her that she continues the media blitz. >> and by the way, gentlemen, you can always make a 911 call. and why were they looking for the phone if they knew they couldn't make calls. >> exactly. >> judge jeanine: how does she explain that? >> she doesn't. she stays quiet and stops talkining. how is that? >> lisa wasn't the only child in the home the night lisa disappeared. police also want to interview the half brothers. what did the boys hear and what can the investigators find out? the delicate business of interviewing children, next.

>> judge jeanine: baby lisa will turn one on november 11. she has two half brothers who were there the night she disappeared. the night baby lisa vanished, they were in the home. the only witnesses other than mom deborah. lisa's half brothers, blake, age 8, jeremy's son from a previous relationship and michael age five, deborah's son from her first marriage. >> judge jeanine: how are the boys doing? >> they are doing okay. >> judge jeanine: the evening of october, deborah says the boys watch a movie in the house while she drinks on the front porch with her neighbor. later, blake goes to sleep new hampshire his room. deborah brings five-year-old mike until bed with her along with a stray kitten they found

that day. around 4:00 a.m., deborah says jeremy arrives home, discovers lisa is missing and all hell breaks loose. in our interview with the parents i asked when the boys knew lisa was missing. did the boys wake up? >> yeah, they woke up and they immediately knew. we were screaming her name and looking for her and they were crying where is pumpkin, where is lisa? >> judge jeanine: do they understand what happened? >> kind of. >> i mean we haven't -- they know that she is gone and they know what we are looking for her and they keep asking have you guys -- her nickname is pumpkin pie. they ask mommy where is pumpkin. >> judge jeanine: deborah and jeremy formerly aloud the police to speak to the boys.

>> they were interviewed october 4 shortly after the police were called to the scene. >> judge jeanine: in the last few weeks they refuse additional requests from investigators to question the boys. deborah and jeremy say their kids have little to offer other than hearing some "clicking noises." it has been a balance in terms of under standing the needs of the children and the best interest of these children and the need for law enforcement to have as much information as they can possibly get. >> judge jeanine: police were granted a new interview that was scheduled to take place yesterday but it was abruptly canceled. could something the boys saw or heard that night help solve the mystery of baby lisa's disappearance? >> we are joined by john picket a forensic specialist who interviews children for law enforcement through an advocacy center.

>> judge jeanine: could the boys know nothing that would help solve this mystery? >> it is possible but it is difficult to know where they were the night this incident occurred. it is possible. sure, it is possible. >> judge jeanine: the mother says they said they heard noises but i don't know if it was' or after they went to sleep. does that suggest to you that maybe the boys heard something? >> sounds like they were at least there and, of course, we don't know what they heard or witnessed.itt netanyahued but >> judge jeanine: do you find that kids are credible witnesses? >> especially kids around the 8, 9, 10-year-old age if you really want to know who is selling crack or who shot you you ask the kid counter corner, they will be accurate. ing. >> how do you assess if they are telling the truth and if

they are doing so through the prism of fear, hysteria, how do you cut through that? >> it is difficult. as far as you want to make the child feel comfortable to trust you and trust the process and engage them and be able to make them feel comfortable enough to talk to you. >> what is interesting, john, is that the parents said they already allowed the children ages five and eight to be interviewed by police and they were only interviewed for -- one for 30 minutes and the other for 50 minutes. that is just enough to establish a rapport. >> and when you did the interviews the detectives are not in the room. it is you. >> you want to have one person in the room so the detectives are usually watchle from another are room so you are not trying tophet them to say something that isn't true orophyte them to talk at all. >> judge jeanine: what i will pact does the passage of four weeks have on their memory?

>> an incredible not to mention the influence is from the parents and the whole process. having their whole lives interrupted. everything going on. >> judge jeanine: mark, can the parents influence the children during a period of time when they are not allowed to talk to investigators? >> the first thing they can do is watch mommy on tv and she is implanting what she wants them to remember are i mean that is very easy to do without directly confronting the kids. the other thing is the two times that these boys were talked to, that was the preliminary investigation before the mother had inconsistencies and lies she was confronted on and she changed the timeline. when they talked to them initially, those questions are worthless right now. >> judge jeanine: and as the investigation continues the questions become different depending on what facts we steaked.

it is interesting that the parents absolutely do not want their kids to talk to law enforcement. >> they don't. >> judge jeanine: we'll see how it goes. in any event, eyewitness news of a man with a baby, surveillance tape and a dumpster fire close to the time. time. the by dar events the nationwide insurance, what's up ?

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new developments in the baby lisa case from outside the home could point police in a whole new direction. three witnesses have now come forward to say the night lisa disappeared they saw a man walking near the irwin home carrying a baby.

the sightings were between 12:15 and 4:00 a.m. could this baby be lisa irwin? also, in surveillance video from that night a lone figure can be seen walking out of a wooded area nearby. and another mysterious twist. this interview two weeks ago. deborah said police asked her about some burned clothing. >> during an interrogation they said we burned clothes. >> why? a.b. hour and a half' jeremy irwin called 911 the fire department responded to a fire in a dumpster near the irwin home. that is the same time one made a call from irwin's missing cell phone. >> we located the dump store where the fire was reported on october 4 in the early morning hours. the walk from the irwin house to this dumpster took me approximately five minutes and driving it took about two minutes. the woods where the place

repeatedly searched are right behind me. >> judge jeanine: will 30s clues help solve the mystery of baby lisa's disappearance? dr. cyril wecht joins us now and mark fuhrman and joey jackson are still with us. a dumpster fire. cell phone calls, people walking around with babies. what is the connection. what do you guys think? >> listen, i think if you have people who two separate sightings you have to give creedence. about 12:00, a couple who is married and their indication some person who is walking around, a man carrying a baby. the baby is not the clothed, right, and then in addition to that, your honor you have another sighting by an individual on a motorcycle who gives the indication that he has seen the same thing all within the same geographical area. you macon include there is an

abduction and the mother was credible and as a result this gives corroboration to what she has been saying, don't look at me, police, look outside. >> judge jeanine: that someone did break in and took my baby. >> i agree with half of what joey says. i wouldn't doubt the married couple especially. the motorcycle, he has a brief erwin dough of opportunitbrief. the span of time is four hours between the two, which is rather odd. the other thing is you can say there is a man with a baby seen two different times within four hours doesn't make it an abduction. >> but a baby in just diapers, mark, that is very concerning. >> but we don't know. >> what is the significance of the dumpster fire and the fact that the police showed deborah irwin or deborah bradley burned

clothing? what do you make of this one? >> i would like to know whether the clothing has been identified in some way as belonging to this child. i would tend to agree with what mr. jackson has said either this person even with the baby is the objector or maybe someone for some reason in collaboration with the mother. but it should not be discounted. what i would point out from perspective as a forensic pathologist is that you cannot get rid of a human body readily. it is my understanding that the mother does not drive. there is no evidence of blood. there is no evidence that this tized baby that was trauma and so on. it is not to easily

accomplished. this to me is a very important point. i don't know whether the mother's story has been invalidated, the failure on the polygraph test, the change as to whether she was awake at a tern time drinking and under the influence at another time and so on. i just -- it i'm puzzled by how you get rid of a body completely so that nobody finds it in that area after all of this kind of diligent meticulous search. that is puzzling. >> judge jeanine: we will show you all later in the show. now, where are lisa's parents now and why did they cancel the interview with their boys and investigators? wild bill stanton, hired to h help deborah bradley and jerema

it 2* 2nd. now, back to -- with a 22nd.

now, back to judge jeanine. >> judge jeanine: if you have information on baby lisa call the kansas city police at 816-474-tips. bill stanton is a private investigatinger hired by an anonymous benefactor to look into the baby lisa case. he joins us from kansas city. welcome bill, how are you? >> i'm doing well. a little upset but i'm doing well. alreadye jeanine: railroad you're upset? you were upset last week. >> we need to get the proper facts out there and i'm shaking my head at some things. >> judge jeanine: let me set the tone here. no one knows what happened here. this is a mystery. no one has been charged. the police have not indicated the parents are suspects or even persons of interest. you have a high profile attorney joe takapena who is

well regarded who says he wouldn't take the case if he didn't believe they were innocent. we are trying to get out from your perspective, youngsters you have been hired by a benefactor. is going on. last night you whisked away the parents to an undisclosed location. why? and where did you take them, bill? >> let me set some ground rules. the kansas city police department, the fbi, fantastic job. they are doing a hard job. secondly, journalists, local and national and commentators such as theirself are adding value by putting eyeballs on this and bringing out facts and waking people up. i want to say that. third, that was a $100,000 reward that i pray that someone hopes to collect if they have some information. >> what about the call. >> judge jeanine: the family was whisked away last night but you, bill, you come in on your

horse and take them away to an undisclosed location. where did you take them and why did you take them? >> that has to relevance to the case right now. you are talking about phone calls being made and i have some questions. how do you know these calls were made? does anybody know? has fbi come out and made a statement or the kcpd made a statement that calls were made. the lady that says she has the 50 second call. was she told that or did she look on her phone or show that to a journalist. i'm not hearing the answers to that. >> you are an investigator on the ground. >> that is exactly right. that is exactly right. >> have you spoken to her? >> no, i haven't spoken to her yet but i'm delegate the questions. i feel fairly certain i know the answers. >> what is the answer? >> that law enforcement hasn't come out and said the calls were made. >> judge jeanine: they are playing it close to the vest, they wouldn't say that. >> that is right and law

enforcement can play it both ways and you know that as well, your on. same thing with the lie detector test. >> deborah said she failed it. >> mr. fuhrman keeps saying it is deborah but neglects to say how she did it. we have the talk about the witnesses and he totally discounts the witnesses. if i'm not mistaken last week he said it was is a man carrying a small man. these witnesses are key. you have someone doors away, doors away at 12:30 scene walking with a child, the husband and wife to the point where the husband is so disturbed that he calls his wife to are you okay. to me that is glaring. then you have a 4:00 a.m.

sighting of a man with a baby in her diaper. a ambulancing view, you are writing a motorcycle. anybody that rides a motorcycle knows your antenna is out and you are watching every little thing because you don't want to fall off that bike. for that man on the bike around 4:00 a.m. to see a man with a child to the point where he felt, you know, what is wrong with this picture, you know, we need to be paying attention to that because at the end of the day there is a child who could very well be alive and while it is fine to look at deborah, it is fine to look at jeremy, it is fine to look at that, let's not forget there is a child out there and there were witnesses that saw a man with a child at 12:30, at 2:30 and at 4:00. that to me is chill and we should all be he all hands on deck aiding law enforcement to find this out. >> what is the family doing to find baby lisa? >> well, to what point?

>> well, you know, when we see these high profile cases, bill, you know, you see these volunteer centers like in casey anthony and you see a coordinated effort by the pair are rents. i'm not seeing that. i have been in kansas city tore three weeks. what are you do doing. >> why i came in and took the people away. there were people banging on door wanting access to the family. people, civilians and while they appreciate the outpouring of love and attention. there are people throughout that think they did it. all it is is a little break. these people have been under tremendous pressure. it is helping me with my look at this. again, i don't work for them. i do not answer to them. if i find compelling evidence that goes to their guilt, so be it, absolutely i'm none on the

phone with the cpd and i need to happened that over yesterday. one should tell me how one, the other or both it this. up until new nobody has been able to say it. for now you can make a stronger argument for this other, this male walking down the street at 12:30 a.m. with a baby i baby a diaper. >> judge jeanine: we talked about the fact that is pointing to something happening outside the house. you have been this kansas city for four weeks now. you have done your own investigation. what have you figured out here? >> i will continue to what i'm saying. i will do what i feel is necessary to keep eyes on this case. i will not to the best of my ability interfere with kcpd or the fbi. so there are things i have that i will not talk about on

camera. i will not interfere with them. >> judge jeanine: and i respect that, bill, and they to as well. let me ask you this, do deborah or jeremy know this megan wright the person who says she received a phone call from their phone. people in the neighborhood have seen her. by the way, bill, she has pink hair, you can't miss h her. >> it let me dangle a carrot. >> judge jeanine: or a strawberry. >> she may not know them, maybe she knows someone else in this picture. >> judge jeanine: speak, bill. finish the thought. come on. give us a carrot. >> can't do it. >> judge jeanine: come on, bill. >> i just want to open up eyes and years, your honor, you know that? you don't see nye that the call

was made by someone. >> i don't hoe how the call was made. i don't see it. >> judge jeanine: first of all, any one can call 911. why were they looking for the phones if they couldn't call 911? >> okay. let's indulge this, okay because i do. i go over every single scenario. scenarios where they tried to do it. scenarios where it was is jeremy. where it was deborah, where it was other. let's go with the scenario that deborah did it or both of them did it. why would they take the phones? where would they take the phones to and why? what do i hear, crickets? >> judge jeanine: here is the problem, bill. the problem is that they are absolutely certain that it was not possible to make a call, that debbie says i tried and couldn't -- that concerns me. whistling we come back -- i

tell you what, bill, hang even to it. you will stay with us into the next block. b d d0e(ll now and get your own

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>> judge jeanine: all right. i'm back with my guest bill stanton who joins us from kansas city. all right, bill, we are going to start from square one again. >> you are going to give me a

heart attack, your honor, you know that. >> judge jeanine: you still haven't told me where you whisked them away and why you did it? going to answer it, yes, or no. if not, i will move on. >> judge jeanine: you are not answering it. why not? why aren't you answering it? >> what does it pertain to the case? it doesn't really pertain to the case, does it? >> judge jeanine: why are they heighting? >> they are not hiding. >> judge jeanine: well, they are not at the grandparents. what are they doing to find the baby? bill, shouldn't be they be at the head of a volunteer team are 6,000 people who are great people in kansas city who would go out and search? why are they hiding? >> the people are kansas city are fantastic. i have gotten nothing but support from them. and you know what, where do you focus the college? is it a photo opponents just for the sake of going out? that is not what this is about. we want to focus, accurate

intelligence. timely follow through. let's get to the bottom of this. to mark's point let's look at the family but you got to keep one eye on them and one eye on everything else. do not have a myopic view. to discount the witnesses is insane. the fact there was a male at 12:30 in 50-degree weather walking with a child without anything on in a diaper. >> judge jeanine: bill, i'm going to do you one better. the fact that the purple shorts that she says she put the baby to bed corroborates that the clothes were taken off the baby. back to your carrot, all right. i asked if deborah and jeremy know debbie writhe. you said she may know someone

that they know. >> i said she may and that is where the mistakes are made. listen closely. follow my words. >> judge jeanine: i'm following. and i quoted you exactly. >> she may know someone else that is unneath this scope let's put it that way. >> judge jeanine: someone in the neighborhood, bill. >> you know what, you have been doing a fantastic job. i know you put on your old prosecutor's jacket. i know those antenna are up. help me, help everyone and that is what happening you journalists and common taters are coming to the witforth witt are compelling. with the mantra all hands on deck, hands off the law enforcement investigation and i think it is helping and we are moving in a positive direction. let's get back to megan and the alleged phone call. if it did, i don't see how it can happen. i just don't see how it can happen. >> judge jeanine: here is the thing, bill, let's assume that it did happen.

it seems that the police corroborated it. she has come out and said it and the police have spoken to her four times. by the end of this we will know if the call was made. i just want to ask you one more question, bill, will the children by interviewed by the investigators? >> that is a joe tac api na question. >> isn't the fact that the local lawyer said it is not good for the kids to talk and joe wants the kids to talk. he said he is going to schedule something next week. is that going to happen? >> you said that, your honor, i didn't. that is not me saying it. >> judge jeanine: all right. bill. always good to see you. maybe we'll see you in kansas city this week. >> 10-4. you're buying dinner. >> judge jeanine: and now, our panel reacts, next.

>> judge jeanine: dr. cyril wecht, mark fuhrman and joey jackson are back with us. all right, guys, i want you react to bill stanton's comment. i think the most significant think he said was megan wright the girl who received the call may know someone that the irwins know who is under the scope. what does that mean, mark? >> i would say it has to do with the disposal or disappearance of baby lisa. when you look at this you have to see that they are trying to distance deborah bradley from everything but every time she

opens her mouth she digs a deeper hole for herself. >> what about jeremy? >> he doesn't seem to be the strong side. he seems to do whatever deborah wants. >> judge jeanine: he provides the excuses. >> he also wasn't available at the time the baby was taken. >> judge jeanine: do we really know when the baby was taken. >> you have one person that seems to change the last time they saw the baby, now we have a span of four hours. the last time the baby was seen was 5:15, 5:20 by jamie. >> the problem is that -- by jeremy. >> the police have been accusatory and may not want to be forth coming. >> behavior you only have one person that sees the victim you want to eliminate that person

and the polygraph is the quickest way to elimb national closest people po the victim. the detectives did not know she was going to fail that miserably. >> judge jeanine: and they didn't release that, she did. >> they had an obligation because they never thought they would talk to her without an attorney ever again. >> there is a problem with polygraph and a reason why they are not admissible because of their unreliability. >> the prosecution and defense both agree they are admissible but that situation rarely occurs. >> so they are admissible. >> look, under the normal course of events you would agree they are not admissible and that s because of their unreliability. >> but they are not a threat. >> i'm going to rule that we are not decideing that now and i will go right to dr. wecht. before we hit the end of the show, doctor, from a forensics point of view based upon what you have heard, where are we going here? >> i think you have got to pin down some of these things and i get back to the point where is the baby. where is the evidence that

anything happened to the baby and to talk about the mother having done this without having any evidence whatsoever i'm not suggesting that that should not be done. but certainly as mr. stanton pointed out you should keep your eyes open and think in broad terms injuries the inquisition and interrogation of five and 8-year-old kids as to what they saw and heard 26 days ago i think is absurd. i can't imagine those kids remembering anything in reference to an 8-year-old kid. >> judge jeanine: doctor work all due respect, odd and the normal parent say as long as these people are specialists i willle let them talk to my kids as long as i can find my baby. >> nobody knows better than you, your honor, that once an attorney gets into the picture it is knottiest than people are permitted to talk to law enforcement agents and there is an explanation for that. i just think that there is a strong likelihood that a

third-party is involved here either solely or in collaboration with somebody else. i will bet on that. >> all right. dr. wecht, mark and joey, thank you. that is it for us tonight. you go next if you had a

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