anger. welcome to "america live," i'm megyn kelly. the story has become the subject of a national conversation. the question now, how could no one at penn state have noun about a -- known about a coach allegedly raping young boys on campus when the first allegation surfaced more than a decade ago? last night the school fired its president and head football coach joe paterno, and the students of penn state went nuts. angry over the firing, in particular of paterno, they took their frustration toss the streets, even flipping over a news van at one point. but even with the firings, many are saying peb state's -- penn state's problems may be just beginning. david lee miller is live in state college, pennsylvania, with a news conference wrapped up about 90 minutes ago. dade lee? >> reporter: that's right, megyn, we heard from the interim new coach, but let's start with the events last night that have captured the attention of the entire country, the anger and

frustration of students boiled over. they took to the streets in frustration over the firing of joe paterno. the coach had said that he wanted to resign at the end of the season, the board of trustees said, no, he had to go immediately. as you mentioned, angry students rolled over a tv van. fortunately, there was no one in it, no serious damage, no serious injuries, but riot police had to use tear gas to disperse the crowd. the demonstrators are asking why was paterno fired when the athletic director at the school, tim curley, who is now charged with percentage as well as failing to -- as well as failing to report the abuse is on administrative leave. others say there is at penn state a conspiracy of silence, a pattern of abuse that paterno and others simply ignored. they say that there was a sexual predator on the campus, jerry sandusky, and that he was abusing young boys while the administrators here simply

looked the other way. and at a news conference a short time ago, tom bradley who testified before the grand jury would not discuss the investigation itself saying it is an ongoing investigation, but he did say that his thoughts were with the young children that the authorities say were abused. listen. >> we're, obviously, in a very unprecedented situation that we find ourselves in and, you know, i've got to find a way to restore the confidence and to start a healing process with everybody, and i'm going to try to go about it. as i said earlier, it's with very mixed emotion and a heavy heart that the this has occurred, that i'm going through this. >> reporter: meanwhile, there's been no formal news conference from joe paterno, he issued a statement saying he was disappointed with the decision by the board of trustees, and last night outside his home he briefly met with some of the supporters to thank them. >> hey, look, get a good night's

sleep, all right? study, all right? we've still got things to do. all right, i'm out of it maybe now. that phone call put me out of it, but we'll go from here, okay? hey, good luck, everybody. [inaudible conversations] >> reporter: megyn, this is still a campus that is very much on edge. tomorrow it is expected that the board of trustees is going to meet again to appoint a special committee to investigate what took place here during the alleged cover up. and then on saturday the penn state football team will play its last home game against nebraska. coach paterno, we understand, will likely not be allowed in the stadium, no formal decision has been made. megyn? megyn: dade lee miller -- david lee miller, thank you. penn state told our producer they would put us on a, quote, mailing list. the pennsylvania attorney general also refused, and she did not want us talking with the

lead investigator in this case, but this is not going away, and there is a real chance now of more criminal charges. joining me now by phone is senior writer for "sports "spors illustrated", lars anderson. as you see these students taking to the streets to protest the firing of joe paterno suggesting that the news media has exaggerated his role in this scandal in which young boys were raped by this other coach at penn state, your thoughts are what? >> my thoughts are that the students are living inside a bubble, and they don't see the bigger picture. and coming out of the press conference today, i'm absolutely flabbergasted, stunned, shocked that michael mcquery who's an assistant coach on that team and who witnessed the act in 2002 is still a member of that coaching staff. i cannot believe they have not fired him. megyn: what's the story with this guy? >> well, he grew up, he grew up in state college, he -- i

believe his family is close with the sandusky family, or at least he's known jerry sandusky for a long time. he was the starting quarterback at penn state and then as a graduate assistant in 2002, he's the one who witnessed the act of what transpired between sandusky and the 10-year-old boy in the shower. and how, um, he was able to look at jer -- jerry sandusky for almost ten years now in the eye is beyond me. megyn: that's one of the big questions in this case. the graduate student, you know, he did go to paterno's house, apparently he called the head coach after he witnessed the shower incident with this guy on the left and a 10-year-old, and he went to paterno's house and told them what he saw. but one of the questions all along has been how did he, the coach himself then a graduate student and now one of the coaches on the team, why did he not stop it?

i don't -- i mean, why didn't he walk into that shower and say get your hands off of that child? >> i mean, that's a very good question. and, you know, i don't know. i can't answer that. but what i do know is that mike mcquery got promoted after this incident happened, and, you know, there are so many more questions that need to be answered, and the reason that nobody's talking is because there's potential criminal charges pending, and, you know, but to me, again, it's unfathomable why he will be on the sideline on saturday. megyn: when you hear this coach come out, this new coach, tom bradley, and, you know, he was apparently under sandusky, the guy accused of the abuse for years, when you hear him come out today and say, you know, this is a day, you know, we need to be remembering the seniors on the team, this is senior day, you know, yes, he did say one

comment about let's not forget the victims, but, you know, you tell me, lars, do the american people today care about the fact that it's senior day for the players at penn state, or are they focused about the lives that have been ruined for these little boys who were innocent victims and their, the crime against them were, apparently, covered up for years? >> well, i mean, i think you know the answer to that question. everybody's thinking about all the victims in this and the huge tragedy that was allowed to unfold over the course of nearly a decade because of inaction by people like michael mcquery who can on the sideline saturday. to me, it's unconscionable. megyn: yeah. the university president gets fired, but the guy who witnessed it and didn't stop it while it was happening -- i'm not putting all the blame on this guy. sandusky, according to the prosecutors, is a true evil man here. he maintains his innocence, but there are a lot of questions

about what they are dubbing a, quote, conspiracy of silence at this major university where you are talking about the lives of little boys. lars, thank you so much for coming on. >> thank you. megyn: folks, we're taking your thoughts on it at kelly@foxnews.com. well, a big story on the campaign trail today. some brand new poll numbers put mitt romney in a dead heat with president obama in three key swing states; florida, mr. romney tops mr. obama by a thin margin, 45% to 42. voters in ohio giving prime pret obama the edge by just three appointments, and in pennsylvania president obama is about tied with mitt romney, 44-43%. that's the latest -- that's according to the latest quinnipiac university survey. peter brown joins us now live in about ten minutes from right now on "america live". some say it is the biggest

flub in mod everybody political history, and when rick perry says he, quote, stepped in it at last night's debate, well, this is what he's talking about. >> i will tell you, it's three agencies of government when i get there that are gone; commerce, education and the -- what's the third one there, let's see. [laughter] >> you mean five. >> five, okay. commerce, education and the -- >> epa? >> epa, there you go. [applause] >> seriously? is epa the one you were talking about? >> no, sir. no, sir, we were talking about the agencies of government. epa needs to be rebuilt -- >> but you can't name the third one? >> the third agency of government i would do away with education, the -- [laughter] >> commerce -- >> and let's see, i can't. the third one i can't, i'm sorry. oops.

megyn: well, governor perry is not losing hope, using his gaffe now to highlight the point that he was trying to make saying there are, quote, so many agencies of government that i'd like to forget. but what's next for camp perry? we will ask governor perry himself. texas governor rick perry joins us live right here on this set, 2 p.m. eastern time. a new controversy today over a political fight leaving thousands of american jobs on hold. documents show that what top officials at the national labor relations board are saying behind the scenes of the union fight against boeing's new plant in south carolina are causing a lot of controversy. greg jarrett is here to explain what we've just learned. >> reporter: these e-mails show attorneys for the federal labor agency mocking boeing corporation and south carolina's senator jim me mint and -- demint and even joking about a dispute that may cost his state thousands of jobs, obviously, to the unemployed it is no laughing

matter. you'll recall that boeing wanted to add a production line for its dreamliner aircraft in south carolina, a right-to-work state because that state granted $900 billion in tax incentives, and boeing said it could not afford production delays that future work stoppages in seattle might causement well, the unions complained about it, and that's when the labor relations board sued boeing to stop the change claiming it was unlawfully retaliating against unions. that case is still pending. well, the stunning new internal documents from the nlrb have surfaced showing attorneys rid rid -- ridiculing boeing and south carolina senator jim demint who's been highly critical of the action along with senator lindsey graham and governor nikki haley. in one, quote:

>> reporter: in another e-mail the assistant general counsel exchanged a political cartoon portraying a south carolina state senator, that's who the gentleman is, who supports boeing as a crass-speaking confederate soldier. two other internal e-mails refer to senator jim demint as significant dement, what looks like a possible reference to the word "demeanted." -- demented. the senator says this shows the board is headed by idealogues. congressman darrell issa says this proves the board is a rogue agency, and mitt romney demanding president obama fire the general counsel over what he called as disturbing and cavalier attitudes about job losses. by the way, these e-mails would have been hidden but for a lawsuit under the freedom of

information act. megyn: gregg jarrett, thank you. >> reporter: okay. megyn: and you heard gregg scribe the attacks that turned up in those e-mails. senator demint joins us live at the top of the next hour to share his response to this. s dig healthy can be fun. see? he's taking his vitamins. new one a day vitacraves plus omega-3 dha is a complete multivitamin for adults. plus an excellent source of omega-3 dha in a great tasting gummy. one a day, gummies for grown-ups.

megyn: well, back now to one of the top stories from the campaign trail today. fresh poll numbers putting mitt romney in a dead heat with pram that in -- president obama in three crucial swing states on the road to the white house. peter brown is assistant director of the quinnipiac university polling institute. peter, thank you so much for being back on the program, and these are big states. we're talking florida, ohio and pennsylvania. our viewers know how critical those are in a general election. let's start with florida. what are you seeing there? >> well, what we're seeing is florida is probably of the three the one the president has the toughest road in. he's behind romney by three points, as we see, but also in a

variety of measures it's a state that seems to be -- of the three, would be the toughest for the president to win. what's important to remember is no one's been elected president of the united states since 1960 without carrying two of florida, ohio or pennsylvania. megyn: so you've got to get two of the three, and that's why both the white house and i'm sure the romney camp are paying very close anticipation to this. attention to this. all right, so if florida's the tough test road ahead, perhaps we can surmise that the white house is looking a little bit more right now toward ohio and pennsylvania as possibilities for going blue in the general election. this is ohio where the president is leading mitt romney, but only by three points. put that in perspective for us. >> well, ohio has traditionally been the swing state. no republican has ever been elected president without carrying ohio, ever. so that the president's numbers there seem to be a little bit stronger. you have to remember we just got over a campaign in ohio in which the republican governor had his pet legislative priority, a bill

that limited the power of unions repealed by popular vote by a very large margin. so the republican brand is hurting right now a little bit in the state of ohio. megyn: and how does that play for mitt romney who's been, you know, he's taken a couple of different positions on this. >> well, he's -- mr. romney does best in ohio against mr. obama of any of the other republican candidates. but again, not as well there as florida or even pennsylvania. megyn: that's interesting. so according to history, the republicans have to win ohio in order to win the white house, and you're putting mitt romney as the man who has the best chance to do that from the gop candidates. all right, let's talk about pennsylvania. speaking of presidential candidates, this is rick santorum's state where he was a senator. nonetheless, mitt romney, of course, is leading among the gop candidates when it comes to a head to head matchup with president obama. look at that. >> it's a dead heat. and what's important to remember, pennsylvania's a state that's probably the most democratic of the three normally.

megyn: right. >> in 2008 president obama carried pennsylvania by double digits. megyn: and so when you look at that kind of a tight, you know, neck and neck race in pennsylvania, what is a reflection of, peter? is. >> well, overall, the president's job approval ratings have been in the low to mid -- excuse me, the low to mid 40s most of the second half of this year. it bumped up a little a couple week ago, but it's now still in the low to mid 40s, and that's not a good place to be. it's not awful, but it's not a good lace to be a year out. -- place to be a year out. megyn: put this into perspective for us because democrats come on and say, look, that's meaningless. if romney becomes the nominee, he's going to take a whole lot more incoming, and his numbers are going to go down. historically, is that true? >> well, it depends on who the nominee, in other words, what that nominee is like and what happens over the next several months. the thing that gives mr. romney an opening and the republicans an opening is that roughly only 41,42, 43% consistently say they

deserve the president -- they the president deserves a second term. is the incumbent worthy of a second term, and if not, is the other guy better? clearly, what the second term numbers are showing is that voters are willing to consider somebody else. megyn: peter brown, thank you so much, sir. >> my pleasure. megyn: governor rick perry could not remember which government departments he was going to cut, and he's been talking about how he, quote, really stepped in it. what's his next move? i will ask him when governor perry joins me live right here on this set. plus, china defending iran over new sanctions over it nuclear program, but now accusations that china is helping iran develop the technology to build a bomb, this on the heels of similar allegations about russia. plus, we'll show you what happens when a group of college students decided to bring the anti-wall street protests to their campus. what makes scottrade your smartphone's

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megyn: a night of violence at the university of california at berkeley. police in riot gear breaking up a massive anti-wall street crowd trying to occupy the campus. demonstrators protesting financial policies they blame for causing deep cuts in higher education spending. take a look at this. police remaining calm as dozens of students pushed back on university grounds as the rioting intensified. in all, 32 people were arrested on suspicion of resisting and delaying police officers and failing to disperse. a fox news alert for you now, we are just moments away from what could be an

interesting white house briefing. today is the deadline for the white house to turn over documents subpoenaed by congress in the solyndra scandal. that involves questions about half a billion dollar federal loan to a green energy company that went bankrupt. that's taxpayer money that is gone. we expect white house press secretary jay carney to face some tough questioning about it during today's briefing that's set to begin in minutes, and our chief white house correspondent, ed henry, is live in the briefing room. >> reporter: good to see you, maine -- megyn, you're right. that deadline has come and gone, white house officials saying they have no plans to turn over more documents related to solyndra to house republicans. in total, they narrow the scope of that subpoena. there had been a concern that the subpoena that came in from house republicans was a nuisance to them in terms of the amount of documents involving the white house and private deliberations. bottom line is white house officials say they have turned down -- they have turned over tens of thousands of pages to house republicans already.

i think beyond the back and forth between this white house, between the republicans investigating solyndra, the significance really is the substance of some of the e-mails that came out yesterday because they may contradict something jay carney said in september. one of these e-mails yesterday was related to obama campaign donor george kaiser and whether or not his white house visits were related to lobbying for solyndra money, whether they were about his foundation. bottom line is here's what jay carney said in september. take a listen. >> he did not lobby administration officials with regard to this, with solyndra. he was involved this a lot of charitable efforts, and it's our understanding that while we haven't looked into every meeting that he might have had here, that that was the focus of his conversations generally speaking at the white house. >> reporter: so the conversations were not about solyndra, and yet an e-mail yesterday came out from george kaiser himself to a colleague, a solyndra board member -- you,

remember, george kaiser was a big investor in solyndra -- and he said among other things: >> reporter: that is from george kaiser himself, that suggests if not lobbying, he was at least in the west wing of the white house discussing solyndra. that may contradict what has been previously said by the white house. there was another e-mail that came out yesterday involving solyndra officials, one of them saying in february of 2010, quote: >> reporter: that might get a little bit of a mention here in the briefing as well. megyn: is that awkward, ed, as you're like steps away from the lectern that jay carney's going to go out of, and he's probably backstage watching you deliver this report, and in the moments the two of you are going to have an exchange, perhaps a testy

exchange about these e-mails that you just played for us? >> reporter: just the facts, megyn. [laughter] megyn: well, it was very gracious of you to highlight for jay exactly what you were going to ask him. we'll be watching the briefing as it unfolds. thanks so much, ed. >> appreciate it. megyn: well, that's a first, i think, on the program, the o word in the middle of the news program. okay, we'll move on. is the supercommittee headed far colossal fail glur with a debt milestone just around the corner, worrisome developments on what's really going on in washington right now. plus, tomorrow marks the first birthday for little lisa irwin, and it's almost been -- well, it's been over a month since her family last saw her. mark fuhrman just ahead on the new twists in this investigation. and last night's gop debate certainly had its moments, but did every candidate get their fair share? our focus group takes a look just ahead. and as candidates prepare for primary and caucus season, remember to bret baier's

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megyn: exactly two weeks left until deadline day in the battle to reduce the national debt, and political insiders say the so-called supercommittee responsible for cutting spending has hit a major snag. and it could be a political one. what's at stake? well, since this committee was formed our national debt has risen by about $400 billion. we've added a trillion dollars to the debt over the past ten months, and now the total national debt is approaching $15 trillion. see, there they are, they're printing them right now. simon rosenberg is director of the new democrat network, rich lowry is editor of the national review and a fox news contributor. rich, you have this piece out that suggests that you believe things were rolling along swimmingly, amazingly, for the supercommittee -- that's overstating it. [laughter] >> yeah, i wouldn't say rolling along. megyn: but there was a glimmer of hope until politics got ip jekylled? >> pat toomey, a senator from

pennsylvania, came up with the framework for compromise, and he'd worked closely with the democrats on the committee, especially max baucus and his staff. and it would have been $500 billion in new revenue which republicans hate to do -- megyn: they were going to lower deductions that people -- >> yeah. it would be coupled with a lowering of the rate, but you'd get more revenue by eliminating a lot of deductions that people at the upper end tend to take advantage of, and then $700 billion in various cuts, and then you add that up, and you supposedly get another $200 billion in interest savings, so this was $1.5 trillion -- megyn: and they're only supposed to -- >> if you talk to republicans, democrats seemed favorably ip kleined, at least wanted to talk about it, then all of a sudden when they consulted their own caucus, did an about face. and their belief is that president obama wants to run against a do-nothing congress, so you need the supercommittee to do nothing. megyn: to fail.

they're too good the fail. [laughter] is this possible? >> look, this is a negotiation. i mean, the democrats have been trying to get all these things passed through congress, the republicans have said no in the past few months. this was a good proposal, the democrats countered with their own proposal, it fell apart. i think this thing can come back together. look, i think there's been tremendous progress made. i mean, the fact that we're seeing republicans now admit there needs to be additional revenue on the table despite complaints otherwise mean we're getting closer to a deal. so i'm optimistic. megyn: really? chuck schumer's not. he came out and said, they're going to fail. and we talked about how is he sort of saying, trust me, it's going to fail. >> i don't think the democrats want this to fail. if it does, it's going to hurt the economy -- megyn: is it going to hurt obama? >> it's going to hurt obama. absolutely. i think the democrats believe they've got to get a deal because it will contribute to the sense of political dysfunction that the government

can't actually attack the country's problems, and i think that's bad for the president. >> the president will blame it on republicans which is what he's been doing so far -- megyn: doesn't he win either way? if they come up with a deal, he can go out there and say look what we did, we cut the national debt. and if they don't, he can go out there and say, it's those republicans, they're killing us. >> i think if there's a deal, it really harms his ability -- he's in the mode where there's 9% unemployment, and he has to blame someone else, so if republicans seem reasonable and constructive, he doesn't want that. so i think chuck schumer's a very shrewd guy. if anyone's shrewd on politics, it's chuck schumer. follow what he's saying. megyn: why would the democrats not like that deal that rich just outlined with the 300 billion in revenue increases? >> i think that the revenue is generated is not acceptable to the democrats -- megyn: getting rid of the deductions that the high wealthy people take? >> corporations and wealthy

people, and also the 100 billion that's in there on the dynamic scoring, the democrats are never going to accept that. so there are pieces of it. in general, look, we're getting close. you can see a deal come together here, and that's why i'm much more optimistic. i would have been very pessimistic a few weeks ago, but i'm surprised, frankly, how far the republicans have come. megyn: have the democrats come equally as far? >> part of it is the republican are reading the polls. right now a poll out this week showed the democrats with a 20-point advantage in favor about over the republicans, their numbers are tanking because of the perception that they're blocking good steps on the economy. they've got to come to the table for their own politics right now. megyn: but they can't go too far, otherwise grover norquist and others are are going to say, what are you doing? >> sure. but this was the bowles-simpson bipartisan approach, you reform taxes to get the rates lore. when you lower the rates, that's better for economic efficiency -- megyn: but republicans believe that, but they haven't been able

to convince the democrats. >> right. this would be a reasonable compromise. megyn: they proposed this reasonable compromise, and the democrats are saying no. so how far are the republicans going to go? >> this was their compromise proposal, democrats have not yet come back with one. >> yeah. this isn't the last 24 hours. megyn: final word, you remain optimistic today. >> i'm optimistic because i think given all the debt and what we're seeing in europe, i think there's even additional pressure on these guys to get this thing dope in the next two weeks -- done in the next two weeks. megyn: and you are -- >> it'll take an election to sort out the differences. megyn: all right, guys, thank you so much. they seem to always find a way to punt the ball a little down the line. [laughter] all right, guys, thank you. well, a watchdog group sued the national labor relations board to get their hands on documents and, boy, did they ever. some insider e-mails coming out mocking south carolina senator jim demint and his effort to bring, well, a boeing plant and

thousands of jobs with it to south carolina. senator demint joins us live in 15 minutes on that. and tomorrow would be baby lisa irwin's first birthday. family and friends still believe that she is alive. detective mark fuhrman on whether that is realistic, up next. [ male announcer ] attention medicare beneficiaries.

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insured through unitedhealthcare. but you need to act now. annual enrollment ends wednesday, december 7th. call unitedhealthcare today about an aarp medicarecomplete plan. you can even enroll right over the phone. or visit us on the web. don't wait. call now. megyn: well, tomorrow is baby lisa irwin's first birthday. she's, of course, the baby who's been miss anything missouri according to her family since october 4th. family and friends believe that she is still alive and out there somewhere, but what really is the likelihood of that? joining me now, former lapd homicide detective and fox news contributor or, mark fuhrman. let's talk about that, let's talk about the family's theory that an intruder took her either because they wanted to kidnap or sell a baby. what statistically and historically is the likelihood of that and the likelihood that she's still alive and with somebody right now? >> well, megyn, the statistics,

the department of justice statistics are pretty astounding really. four million babies are born in this country every year, out of those four million babies, when you get down to infant abductions if it is not a family member, close access to the child, the amount of infant abductions in the entire country for a year is less than ten. megyn: wow. so the odds are slim. >> and of -- odds are slim. and of those ten abductions or less, the suspect is a female of child-bearing age that either has some kind of mental issue, relationship issues, the inability to have children. the fbi profile is pretty distinct and clear. and very pin pointed, i might add. males are completely omitted from this. megyn: wow. well, what about, you know, the theory of course would be in this case they're looking at

this guy, jersey, perhaps he sold the baby to sell the baby to somebody who matches that description and wanted a young baby girl. >> the interesting part about stealing an infant for sale, it usually occurs in a ped call facility -- medical facility or some place of immediate care of the mother when she's had the child. that's when that occurs. and that's rare also. but when it does occur, those cases are solved fairly rapidly, and certainly they don't involve the participants as suspect -- parents as suspects. megyn: the thing about jersey, this guy you've mentioned previously there are probably fingerprints, something along those lines, and you've told me many times that criminals are stupid and while, you know, on "law and order" they may always have gloves and is on, usually they don't, and the cops would have his fingerprints, and

they're not telling us this is the guy. i want to ask you about the other alternative, mark, and it's such a sad discussion as we're a day before what would be this child's first birthday, and that is the possibility that she's no longer alive and her body was disposed of by the mother, by an intruder, by somebody. if that's the case, where is. >> e? why haven't the police been able to find body? >> well, i think, you know, we have to realize that there is so many people in this country that go missing that are never found, and their toothbrush is still at home, and there's absolutely no homicide investigation because they simply don't know. well, in this case we know where the person was, and that person was in the home. and, unfortunately, nothing fits. there is no evidence of a suspect that came into the house, there's no trace of it. unless somebody had booties, a hair net on, a complete suit, he came in, didn't touch the wall outside, didn't touch the ground, came in and left without leaving a trace. the odds of that are almost nil.

so when you, when you look at this, it's unfortunate, but the chances that this baby is still alive is almost zero. megyn: you know, i was speaking with a close source, a source close to the investigation side of this who suggested to me something about the river. it was a speculation, you know, it wasn't we think she's in the river, but it was you've got to consider the river. this river is less than a mile away from the irwin home, it is a significant body of water, and unfortunately, mark, it would be easy to dispose of a body in this river and never have it be seen again. >> you're absolutely correct. the river flows between three and eight miles an hour depending on what time of the year. it's a pretty, it's a big river, it's a deep river, it has large catfish in it that will eat anything, you know, it was told to me that if somebody goes in off of a bridge in kansas city

whether an accident, a suicide or what's happened numerous times is somebody is murdered and actually thrown in the river or ends up in the river, they sometimes are recovered as far as 40 miles down river in lexington, missouri. so the river each when police know -- even when police know that a body went in and the recovery is 40 miles, you have a baby that's anywhere from 15 to 18, 20 pounds that goes in that river, and the current's moving like that, it's hard for man to find the body. nature has to give up the body if there's anything left. megyn: do you agree, mark, at this point even -- i know you believe the mother was involved. do you agree, though, at this point that the cops can't make that case? >> i don't agree. i think that they have made an effective case of the indepress and the egress has not been proven to actually be as it was

presented. in other words, i think they can demonstrate a staged crime scene. the mother has lied repeatedly, she's failed a polygraph. whether it's used in court or not, they know exactly where she failed and what questions, and they can direct their investigation towards that. she will not be ree interrogated one-on-one by the detectives, that is a red flag. she changed the timeline, she claims a blackout. this whole case, if you present it to a jury, megyn, if you're a prosecutor, and you present this to a jury and then you have a cadaver dog hit in the master bedroom, and then we can answer joe tack pee know's question, had anybody ever died in that master bedroom, i'm sure the police know that also, and there's a death certificate to that address. so, you know, i think it's a good case. megyn: yeah. i mean, those on the law enforcement side have said in published reports they don't believe that they have that case at this point. obviously, because there's been no arrests, but we'll see

whether one takes place in the pending days. mark fuhrman, thank you so much for your insights on it. >> thank you. megyn: well, two out of three ain't so good for rick perry in last night's debate. he could not name all of the departments that he wallets to cut as president, and one political analyst calling it the biggest flub in modern political history. what does rick perry say about it? and is this really such a big deal? he joins us live, moments away. the good news, it was only a test. the bad news? instead of hearing the emergency alert system from coast to coast yesterday, some folks heard lady gaga. we'll show you how that might have happened next. ♪ when you have diabetes... your doctor will say get smart about your weight.

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heck megging sad news today from america's funny pages. bill keane, the creator of family circus has died of heart failure. family circus started in 1960 focusing on the lighter side of family life. he based the cartoons on his own family. it grew to appear in more than 1500 worldwide newspapers. bill keane was 89 years old. well, at this time yesterday we were getting ready for an "america live" first, the national emergency broadcast test. you know, you've seen it locally? well, this was supposed to happen on a national level all at one time, but it didn't. at least not for us. did it happen where you were? >> if you didn't see it or hear it, don't worry, because you were not the only ones. >> reporter: i could have predicted this outcome, megyn.

the disaster warning system is supposed to be carried on radio and it's all across the country, 2 p.m. eastern, hit a few snags. this washington our fox news bureau reported the test came across their cable system at 2:03. near new york time warner cable customers said they did not receive an alert at all, other stations reported imlichs or no audio. directv viewers reportedly heard lady gaga's song "paparazzi" during the test, so what happened? well, a fema spokesperson sent us in the rather vacuous statement: >> reporter: just to give you some background on this test, the system was set up by

president harry truman in 1951 as a top-down cape of communication for civil defense. he never used it though. in fact, the system was only activated once nationwide accidentally back in 1971 -- megyn: it worked then. >> reporter: to prepare for an announcement from the white house. the emergency alert system is primarily used for severe weather warners and you know what, meg? critics are kind of wondering if the test is really needed now, suggesting the feds try using social media this case of a national emergency. megyn: that's brilliant, because i know that nana checks her twitter feed. >> reporter: nana's on twitter? i did not know. megyn: that would help a hot. [laughter] all right, gregg, thank you. some pundits are trying to say rec perry -- rick perry made the biggest mistake in modern political history. today governor perry trying to make lemonade out of those lemons. he joins us live a few minutes away. plus, a strange twist for

this missing little boy in washington state. investigators say his mother's story is sounding like something straight out of a crime tv show, literally. and candidates laid out their economic plans at last night's debate, so how did they stack up? and were the questions fair? hear from some voters just like you as our "america live" focus group debates. what did you think about these candidates? what did you think about newt gingrich who's rise anything the polls in part, perhaps, because of performances like that? >> he definitely adds a level to these debates, he has experience on many of these issues, something that many other republicans don't -- megyn: do you worry about him debating barack obama? even ragu uss chose prego. prego?! but i've been buying ragu for years. [ thinking ] i wonder what other questionable choices i've made? [ '80s dance music plays ] [ sighs ] [ male announcer ] choose taste. choose prego.

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you know what else is early? medicare open enrollment. now through dember 7th. can i stick with old medicare plan? sure! or find a new plan with better coverage, less cost, or both. medicare plans give you free cancer screenings and wellness visits and 50% off on brand-name prescriptions when you're in the doughnut hole it's part of the healthcare law. so it's time to look, compare... and choose the right plan for you. learn more at 1-800-medicare or medicare.gov. megyn: never before seen document shedding light on a raging political controversy that left thousands of potential jobs on hold.

we have new reaction from a key player in this fight. i'm megyn kelly. brand-new internal men owes and emails obtained by judicial watch. they reveal attitudes inside the national labor relations board towards boeing and others. the nlrb claims that boeing chose south carolina to retaliate against union workers in washington state for past strikes. boeing claims the decision was based on tax incentives and it could not afford production delays from the strikes. these memos show the nlrb mocking one lawmaker who challenges the nlrb's actions. an excerpt of one email sent to an nlrb attorney reads, quote,

you retire with your integrity which makes you far wealthier than senator dement will ever be. as in dementia. or demented. senator demint has agreed to be our guest. as soon as we get him hooked up we'll bring him to you. but first we want to get you this. an alert on a police news conference that just wrapped up into the investigation of a missing 2-year-old boy in washington. the mother claims she left him in the car sunday when she ran out of gas. she says that when she came back her child was gone. but her story is not adding up. police say there was plenty of gas in her car, the one she left her child behind in allegedly to get gas, and they say the story

sounds suspicious like the plot of a recent episode a popular tv show. >> heard about the "law and order" episode that has great similarity to this case. i heard it aired before the disappearance of sky. i know there are several those in the command post that have taken a look at that episode and have commented that it is strikingly similar in nature. megyn: dan? >> reporter: frankly, police watching the tv show sound to me like they are running out much leads. they told us that yesterday. there are no new leads in this investigation. and they are basically having -- running out of places to look for sky. frustration is clearly building. there was only a 7-minute news conference without much news at all. frustration is building with this police department saying they do not have any serious leads there.

they are frustrated because the mother is not cooperating with them. the story about her running out of gas was bogus. she did have plenty of gas in that gas can. police will run tests to see if there may have been other mechanical problems with the vehicle. >> reporter: she told us she had difficulty with her car. she told us it ran out of gas. it wasn't running rights. we want to check owl of that out and see how it adds up. >> reporter: while the mother is denying -- is declining to take a polygraph test, another person close to her has take and polygraph and he has been eliminated as a possible suspect. the police are not telling us who that person is. they will not say if the mother or brother in the area have taken a polygraph. we know the ex-husband was scheduled to have a polygraph test yesterday within that did not happen. so they are saying he can come

in the next couple days. but all indications are the mother holds the key. the police sayings much as hoping to get her in for the interview. they want her to come in and talk to her -- talk to the investigators about what she knows. megyn? megyn: thank you. back now to our story about the raging political controversy that left thousands of potential jobs on hold in south carolina. as we told you, some internal memos from the nlrb have been obtained by judicious watch and they reveal attitudes inside the national labor relations board towards boeing, u.s. lawmakers and a dispute that made national headlines. nor jim demint is the -- senator jim demint is mentioned in the

emails. you were referred to as dement. they go on. they have a laughing joking time about this situation that has caused a lot of jobs in south carolina, but they seem to be finding its humerus to the point where mitt romney has come out and said president obama needs to fire the lead counsel. >> i do agree. i'm not worried about their disrespect for me. i'm worried about their disrespect for the people of south carolina and the boeing organization. they are gleeful about costing jobs in south carolina and they are talking about costing jobs in other countries with some of the things they are doing. i can't believe a bureaucratic

organization like this is able to exist in the obama administration. he stocked the board with his people. they weren't approved by the senate but he stuck them in there anyway. i think it's apailing. megyn: this a question about whether the nlrb is independent and fair arbiter of labor disputes. while this doesn't involve the principals on that board, the general counsel are saying controversial things including the examples that we have given. do you believe as darrell issa has that these emails prove that this is a rogue agency? that was his term. you suggested that you do believe this is a group of ideologues. >> i think they are connected with the obama administration

and the union bosses that are pulling the strings. they want to destroy jobs in right to work * states. it's like nancy pelosi said. there this is how strongly they feel about their political organization built on unions, union dues and forced unionization. we have to take a stand against these folks. they are unelected bureaucrats playing the role of tyrants. as i said, union thugs are going after jobs not just in south carolina, but threatening jobs everywhere where we give workers the right not to join a union. the nlrb is supposed to represent all workers, union and non-union. but they will not even give non-union workers a seat at the table in discussing this problem. megyn: can you hold the comments of the lawyers against those -- members of the nlrb themselves?

>> yeah. i don't know why we can't. if you look at the emails you can see they are very closely connected and with the obama administration. i think you can clearly see from this freedom of information act that we have gotten this information in, and i think it's just starting to come right now. i think it's unacceptable. if the president don't respond to this be he's clearly involved -- if the president doesn't respond to this, he's clearly involved with it himself. megyn: the family of murdered border patrol agent brian terry is planning to take legal action after finding that a weapon from "operation fast & furious" haas found at the scene. a cheating scandal involving s.a.t. exams. now we are learning the problem was much worse than we first

thoughts. >> the third agency of government i would do away with education, the -- commerce, and let's see -- i can't -- i can't -- sorry. the third one i can't. [ male announcer ] if you think tylenol is the pain reliever orthopedic doctors recommend most for arthritis pain, think again. and take aleve. it's the one doctors recommend most for arthritis pain... two pills can last all day. ♪ the best in nutrition... just got better. now with even more of the vitamins your body needs. like vitamin d. plus omega 3's. there's one important ingredient that hasn't changed: better taste. [ female announcer ] eggland's best. better taste. better nutrition. the beer egg.

for a hot dog cart. my mother said, "well, maybe we ought to buy this hot dog cart and set it up someplace." so my parents went to bank of america. they met with the branch manager and they said, "look, we've got this little hot dog cart, and it's on a really good corner. let's see if we can buy the property." and the branch manager said, "all right, i will take a chance with the two of you."

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megyn: some are calling it the biggest gaffe in the history of presidential debates. rick perry -- take a listen. >> it's three agencies of government when i get there that are gone. commerce, education and the -- what the third one there -- let's see -- five.

commerce, education, and the -- epa. there you go. >> is the epa the one you were talking about? >> no, we were talking about the agencies of government. epa needs to be rebuilt. >> you can't name the third one? >> i would do away with the education. >> commerce. >> commerce, and let's see -- i can't -- sorry. megyn: governor rick perry joins me now. thank you so much for being here. >> it's an honor to be here with you. that's pretty brutal. megyn: how did it happen? >> i think it happened to everybody before. i stepped tonight, that's for sure. some of it is still stuck on my feet. the fact is there are a lot of americans out there that were

not unlike me as they sit around and think about federal agencies they would like to forget. i certainly had the agency of energy stuck on -- it wasn't even on the tip of my tongue. megyn: we are all there when we are thinking will it come to me? will it come to me? >> even looking over to mitt and her man and ron paul and saying, you guys want to give me a hand here? megyn: ron paul threw you a lifeline and so did mitt romney. he's your big rival in this campaign. >> here is the seriousness of this. we were having a good debate talking about issues important to the people of this country. as a matter of fact we are having a little fun with it which is fine. i think we ought to. you can go to rick perry.org and

give your list of federal agencies you would like to forget. we have had 2,000 hits already. you make mistakes, things don't come out of your mouth right. but we talked about a lot of important issues like my tax plan. we had a great opportunity to share our flat tax with the people of america. i'm going to be back into south carolina tonight and back in iowa, and we are going to be talking about how to make this tax -- this personal income tax flat, simple, deduct your chirtible, deduct your mortgage interest. get rid of cap gains, take 20% of that. it on a postcard. i brought you the post cashed right there. that's it. that's what it would take. send it in and that takes care of the personal income tax. it will end the irs as we know it. megyn: you did have an opportunity to address some

issues. but everybody is focusing on this moment. sab toe, larry sabato says the most devastating moment any modern primary debate. sab toe doubled down. he was on "happening now" earlier talking to jo snrks scott. >> it was a disaster. there is no way to put any fine point on it. this wasn't just a moment. it was a series of events that's taken place since perry entered the contest. he has done poorly in almost every single debate it's tough to overcome this sub text for his candidacy. >> if we're atlanticing a debater in -- if we're atlanticing -- if we are electia

debater in chief, don't elect me. we have a president who always disaster for this economy who is a great debater. i led the second largest state in the nation for the last 11 years. we created the land of opportunity. people continue to move to the state of texas because they know there are great policies that have been put in place. that's why i'll into go into iowa, south carolina and florida and talk about the policies that matter. megyn: the republican field is look out. voters, and they are saying can we put this buy up against barack obama? you are admitting he can debate better than you can. why should they believe that if you are the guy you go in to these head-to-head debates against barack obama you will prevail and be per virginia sway -- i will be persuasive. >> i don't think you need to be

nimble when you look at the number of jobs destroyed by this economy. when you look at where our country was three years ago from our debt situation. when you look at the $4 trillion of stimulus spent in this country. when you look at the absolute economic turmoil this president has put on americans you don't have to be the slickest debater. but you have to be able to call him out and point clearly to the options. some of those options are change our tax structure. having a balanced budget by 2020 which my plan is the only one of the republicans that balances the budget by 2020. it's about taking care of our entitlement programs. we talk about social security. and those moving towards being on social security will be taken care of. who is it out there who will stand up for the young people. who is on that stage and student and said we are going to reform social security in america so the young people going into the

workforce today will have that retirement system. i'm that person. i have not only the record for that, i have got the passion for it and i think i can take it to barack obama on any given day. megyn: you had a couple incidents on these debates that have been highlighted. one where you said if people disagreed with your immigration policy they were heartless. there was an interesting exchange between you and governor romney who threw you a lifeline last night saying was it the epa. but in an earlier debate he put hands on you when you were sparring heatedly. here is a clip of this from cnn. what did you think of it when he put hands on you. what was going through your head? >> i was more focused on the conversation that was going back and forth. megyn: have things softened with him reaching out to help if you that moment last night? >> there has before been any

differences on a personal. these are all philosophical differences. whether it was herman cain and his tax plan or whether it's been mitt's multiple positions he's had on different issues. these are all philosophical discussions we are having. each one of those men and women on the stage i have the highest regard for. running for the presidency of the united states i respect each one of them. megyn: herman cain has been mired in controversy. you just came out with a new ad talking about your family values and your wife, your lifelong sweetheart. some are suggesting maybe that is in some way a comment on the situation mr. cain is going through. is it? >> not at all. it's about me and my family and my beliefs. it doesn't have anything to do with herman cain. it has to do with rick and anita perry. megyn: you came out within made

a big splash, you were the front runner. now you are down to single digits in some of these battle ground states. how are you going to turn things around? >> we keep talking about the issues important to people and that's about jobs. no one has a record we can talk about that i have as governor of the state of texas. people want to see the policy. whether it's tax plans or spending cuts. show us how to grow this economy. we laid out a plan 10 days ago that does that. we need to stick that sign back in the middle of america that says america, open for business again. megyn: governor perry thank you so much for being here. all the best to you. coming up, we are taking your thoughts on it. coming up. millions of american students take this test fair and square, but not all of them.

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megyn: nearly 3 dozen high school students in new york may find themselves pinned bars. prosecutors say the scheme involves thousands of doors and the investigation is expected to expand. greg jarrett joins us with more. this is unbelievable. report report scope of this thing it's about to explode. 35 students may soon arrested not just the kids accused of fraudulently taking tests for others but those who allegedly paid the test takers. they could all end up behind bars and there are questions whether parents were involved.

the first bust was made in september. he denies the charges but is accused of taking the s.a.t. test for six current students at show. those students also arrested. but the case has winded to 35 people from five schools. some believed to have created fake i.d.s to get past the test screeners. some students paid up to $2,500 to have an imposter take the exam. students would register at different schools to avoid being recognized by progress towards. they got caught because their s.a.t. scores were so much higher than the school grades and some as high as 2200 out of a perfect 2400. it's possible the scandal will prompt a nation yied investigation of the education

testing service. it says 3,000 test scores are studied each and every year for possible cheating. of those roughly 1,000 are canceled after supervisors reporter regular later or because of large jumps from scores on previous test. suspected impersonations make up 150 of those. 700 students are turned away every year because their i.d.s look to be phoney. the students who were busted and maybe some of the parents if they are involved are looking at charges of criminal impersonation, fraud and falsifying business records. but there is one problem for the prosecutors and you know this. there is a 2-year statute of limitations for many of these charges. for some of those folks it may have expired so they get out of jail free card on this one. megyn: but don't forget. cheaters never prosper. >> reporter: that's what i

hear. megyn: we heard the political analysts and the presidential candidates speaking to the issues that came up in last night's debate. but the important opinions belong to you, everyday americans who go to the voting box. people who do like cane, people on this stage who are republican, what do you think? do you think republicans care about this story and cain still has a chance? ananannouncer ] just how many appliances

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megyn: new reaction to last night's gop political debate from the most important group, american voters. joining me now on america's take on how well the candidate did. a panel of potential voters who watched last night's debate it's a pleasure to have you in the studio. one of the moment we saw last night that got all the attention today was rick perry stumbling when he tried to name the three departments he would eliminate. i want your reaction. >> it's three agencies of government when i get there that are gone. commerce, education, and the -- what's the third one there -- let's see -- five, okay. commerce, education and --

the -- epa? >> epa, there you go. >> is epa the one you were talking about? >> no, sir, we were talking about talking about the agencies of government. the epa needs to be rebuilt. >> you can't name the third one. >> the third agency of government would do away with education, the -- commerce, and let's see -- i can't -- i can't. megyn: painful to watch. what was your reaction. >> it was the worse incident in a presidential debate as a excused history. think about it. nixon was sweaty and dan quayle tried to compare himself to kennedy. there is no one who had a worst situation or a longer one it was

30 seconds that lasted forever. megyn: anyone think it wasn't a big deal? >> i think he showed tremendous character. he's sticking with it. he's got a great message. megyn: around perry supporter. >> i think now america is going to be watching him. this next go round he will carry the wave all the way to the white house. megyn: haven't we all stood up and had a brain freeze where i have no idea who i am. >> he's don't so many times. it's a cumulative -- megyn: you are an author and you work in fashion. >> some things are not recoverable i don't think he can regain the trust of the american people. megyn: i see you want to comments. around senior communications policy consultant. >> he has known he was going to have this debate for some time. megyn: maybe he overprepared.

>> he couldn't have overprepared. he had three agencies and he couldn't remember them? it's not a 10-item list. megyn: for those of you who are republicans, was this a deal breaker for you and rick perry? >> these people were not perry supporters in the first place. >> you were. you blogged about the debate. what did you think? >> i believe just imagine rick perry on a stage with barack obama. obama would wipe the floor with him. i was a perry supporters initially. his continuous gaffes. it's a shame because i believe policy wise is a good candidate. but you put him on stage with obama and you will have a travesty. megyn: do you believe someone is -- mitt romney, there was quite a contrast as there has

been in a few debates of the ability to handle questions and how smooth the candidates were in answering the questions. and here is a sampling from governor romney last night. >> governor romney respond in 30 section, notice one of your points in your economic plan addresses housing. can you tell us why? >> it's not a housing plan, it's a jobs plan. the best thing you can do for housing is to get the economy going. megyn: could he be any smoother? you tell me. could he be any smoother? >> i think he's very smooth. but when it comes down to substance, i believe last night the other contenders missed an opportunity to attack romney on three key issues. you supported obama's stimulus package before it passed. romney care has molded

obama-care, and as governor in massachusetts he passed $300 million in fees to fill a short fall. megyn: you are a financial analyst and libertarian. >> i'm a huge romney supporters. i feel like he has had the most experience with crossing the aisle and getting legislation passed. he comes from a state where the constituency is 85% democrat. he did pass the romney care. however, he's dealing with the states. 85% democrat. you have to have some sort of concessions to pass legislation. megyn: i want to shift. the next one is about an exchange newt gingrich had. we have seen him do this in many debates and last night he did not disappoint when it came to going after the moderators. >> my colleague has done a

terrific job of answering an absurd question. to say in 30 questions. >> you said want to repeal obama-care. >> let me finish, if i may. to say in 30 seconds what you would do with 18% of the economy, life and death for the american people, a topic i worked on since 1974, about which i would go go saving lives and saving money in 2002 and founded the center for healthcare information is the perfect case why i'm going to challenge the president to seven lincoln-douglas-style debates with no time cooper or moderator so we can have a serious discussion. >> would you like to try to explain [applause] megyn: . she wound up saying okay taked the time you need, then he said everybody up here will yell at me. is this working for newt

gingrich? >> i don't think it is. what it underscores is these individuals are not serious. why do i say that? gingrich had a chance to talk about healthcare and he talked about himself. governor perry, the entire basis for his campaign is to eliminate government waste, he can't name the agencies he wants to eliminate. herman cain wants to talk about himself and mitt romney's response to being a serial flip-flopper is he has been married to the same woman for 42 years. he's not running for husband and chief. he's running for president of the united states. these people are not serious. megyn: stephanie, you are democratic national committee for the young democrats of america. what do you think about newt begin grim rising in the polls because of performances like that. >> he adds a level to the conversation in these debates.

he has experience on many of these issues, something some of the other republicans in the field don't. megyn: as a democrat do you worry about him debating barack obama? >> i prefer rick perry, but i don't think any of these candidates are good for young americans. i don't think any of them pointed out anything they were going to do to put young people back to work. megyn: i want to get to the herman cain moment. he was asked about allegations that came out. and look what happened when he was. >> the american people want jobs, but they also wants leadership and flick a president. in recent days we have learned four different women have accused you of inappropriate behavior. here we are focusing on character and judgment. you have been a ceo. you know shareholders are reluctant to hire a ceo where there are character issues, why should the american people hire

a ceo when they feel there are character issues. >> the american people deserve better than someone tried in the court of public opinion based on unfounded accusations. [applause] megyn: norah, your thoughts in response to that crowd. around drem krat. booing just the question. >> i think cain is hanging himself daily. i don't think he's a strong candidate. definitely not. megyn: you don't think he handled that well. because he didn't answer the question, and he is settling some of the lawsuits that are against him. megyn: that was years ago. cain has been dealing with this. people who don't like cain -- people to do like cain, do you

think republicans care about the story and do you think that cain still has a chance? >> i think the media handled this very unfairly and these moderators were nothing moderate about them. all they were were a political hit team. all they wanted to do was torpedo these republicans. i thought they were terrible. we mixed fox news and megyn kelly. megyn: i do my best to do a fair and balanced presentation. >> these allegations keep coming and piling on. the american public -- they don't like them. >> where there is smoke there will be is fire. we saw this at penn state. he talks about not wanting to be judged by the court 7 pick opinion. what is a presidential race, that's where you will be judged and the public will. megyn: i appreciate you being her. all the best. he proudly served on the front

lines of america's so-called third war. but from the end, a gun tied to a botched sting operation killed brian terry. new details about this family's plan to take legal action. this new at&t 4g lte is fast.

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megyn: weekly jobless claims dropping to the lowest level in 7 months. they dropped by 10,000. economists say weekly benefit claims need to fall consistently to start a sustained drop in the unemployment rate. "kelly's court" is back in session. a family's quest for justice after their son is murdered. brian terry gunned down at the mexican boarder nearly a year ago. guns found at the crime scene allegedly walked into the hand of mexican drug cartels through

our own government's "operation fast & furious." the phoenix office of the department of justice allegedly handle that operation. this week senators grilled attorney general eric holder. when given a chance he he fused to apologize to the terry family. >> have you apologized to the family of brian terry? >> i have not apologized but i certainly regret what happened. >> would you like to apologize for this program that went oh wrong that it took the life a u.s. border agent. >> i refret what happened. i can only imagine the pain his family had to deal with. it is not fair to assume the mistakes that happened in "operation fast & furious" directly led to the death of agent terry. megyn: there is a fundraiser in a couple days that will help cover the family's legal costs including costs associated with

what is suspected to be their own lawsuit, civil lawsuit against the feds. are they expected to win that? joining me is mark eiglarsh and former prosecutor and cohost of the five, kimberly guilfoyle. the terry family said for months now, they have to file by december 12. it seems they are gearing up to file a wrongful death lawsuit against our own government for putting essentially the guns in the hands of their son's murderer. can they prevail on that? >> it one be easy, but they can. it's difficult to sue the government. they would be bankrupt with all the mistakes that are made. but there are precedents they can cite to. when the government creates an unreasonable risk of harm based on their actions that they could prevail. one could argue that putting

serious what he nonts hands of bad people, you can expect to see bad things. that this action was not only regrettable, but preventable. megyn: how much of a stretch is it to say the federal government could or should have seen allowing these guns to go into the hand of mexican drug cartels to lead to the death of a border agent. >> if there is one thing this particular department of justice and eric holder is good at, they are quite adept at being abling to be evasive in withholding information, specifically freedom of information requests. a lawsuit of this nature would allow the family to be able to it's as a vehicle to get answers, to find closure as to why exactly their son died. what eric holder is saying, it will be difficult to suggest and improper, he says it's the direct and proximate case of the

government putting the weapons in the hands of those drug dealers and gun traffickers. that's where they will have a hard time in terms of recovering an actual monetary award. megyn: why isn't that exactly right. that the department justice -- it's indisputable that it was flawed. how could the government have foreseen this specific result? the law requires specificity in terms of the result. that this specific border patrol agent would be killed by a gun that was part of "operation fast & furious." >> if i'm representing the family the first thing i would do is point to the number of whistleblowers who went to their supervisors on multiple occasions and said this program is going to kill people. we have test moany of that already. -- we have testimony on that already. and we are going to put guns

into the hand of bad people with no tracking system. megyn: when we come back we'llnc talk about sanctuary cities. an accident... p ew heartbeat... to a heart condition. when you see your doctor, you don't face any medical issue alone. you do it together. at the american medical association, we're committed to preserving that essential partnership between patients and their doctors. because when it comes to your health, you need someone you trust. the ama. protecting the relationship between patients and physicians.

megyn: we have seen this happen before where you have family of somebody who has been killed by an illegal i am gloont was caught and released. they suit feds or they sue the city managers saying this is a sanctuary city, you knew, you put him back on the street therefore you owe me money and they get dismissed time and time again. how is this different? >> you picked a great example. i know the family personally.

i know the people they tried to sue for this. for releasing who they knew to be a known killer, bern a rap sheet. by letting that individual out, the family lost -- the family member is dead because of it. megyn: the courts held you have to prove that the threat is so specific directed to this individual. in other words, they were going to have to prove this particular illegal immigrant would kill this guy. and it's impossible. >>it is impossible. it's almost impossible to prevail on these cases. these times of cases where you try and sue a city that has a sanctuary city and in a case like this where you see an operation held by the government put forth. and but for the government hadn't put those guns out there would agent terry be dead. megyn: you have to get past the

"but for." it's a close nexus. explain to the viewers why we give the government immunity and protect it even with it's done wrong. >> my sarcastic response is everyone, the government and local municipalities would all be bankrupt. they would be sued constantly. that's not to say law enforcement makes any more mistakes than doctors and lawyers and waiters. but the mistakes would be of such a significant nature that we wouldn't have any money. mistakes are made all the time. megyn: thank you both so much. penn state rocked bay horrifying scandal. the school famous for its football team now the subject of a federal investigation into a

growing child sexual abuse case.

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