he's running away because he doesn't want to be on camera. >> alisyn: romeo! where fore art thou romeo. >> clayton: there he is. we'll have more on the after the show show. he's leaving us and he brings a smile to our face every day. thanks. >> tick, tick, tick, is that the sound of the clock counting down for the super committee? or for the economic bomb to blow up if they punt until after the election? >> that's 18 months from now. and that -- that's bull [beep]. that's the answer is 18 months from now we maybe get something done? >> is he right? would no deal be a bad deal for job creators? hi, everyone, i'm brenda buttner. this is "bulls & bears." let's get right to it. the bulls & bears this week, gary b. smith, jonas max ferris along with john thomas, financial ceo tom belisis, scott

martin from accent asset management and democratic media consultant steve murphy. welcome to everybody. tom, no deal, a b. s. deal for jobs? >> i agree. i mean, these cuts that take place in 18 months are a budget b. s. it's a budget crap. you have to make these cuts now and they have to stop messing around and put an end to the uncertainty on america's economic future and the job creators right now. they have to make the cuts. no one is going to be happy but it's their job and responsibility for the future of this country to make the tough decisions even if it's not the right ones. >> i don't know, jonas, you're smiling. that may be because you're in miami or maybe because you're disagreeing with tom. >> some cuts are better than no cuts. i actually like severe, serious cuts which is the penalty for no action and they kick in later as would the tax increases if there's no action and that's actually kind of good because the economy is not so great right now. and it can't handle either tax increases or major spending cuts which is what they're supposed to be doing if they get together and agree so this could work as

long as they don't then put off those cuts from those coming down the pike in a couple of years. >> steve, you're worried about them failing. >> yes, i am worried about them failing. we need to have the big deal, the $4 trillion deal. these cuts, half of these cuts are completely ilusiory. defense, 15% defense cut is not going to go into effect. congress will quickly reverse that. and may well reverse some of the other cuts. no, we need a big deal. i don't think the automatic cuts are automatic at all. >> gary, i know how much you love congress. and you love anything they do. so where do you stand on this one? >> well, hard to believe, brenda, but i guess i most agree with steve. only i would add a zero behind it, you know. i can appreciate the sentiment that tom made right up front. but the fact is, we're talking about, what, $1.2, $1.3 trillion

in cuts. wow, that sounds so great. until you realize, a, it's spread over 10 years. b, the federal budget still rises each and every year despite that. c, defense spending will still go up and d, we have a $15 trillion deficit. this is a drop in the -- this is nothing, whether they do something, brenda, or whether they do nothing, you will see absolutely no change. we've got to go big in the parlance of government and that's why i say put a zero behind steve's four and make it a $40 trillion cut, then you start to have something. >> all right. go big, scott? is that what you're saying, too? >> gary, now you're playing with some real money here. brenda, look, maybe he is just upset that the half of the country is going to go into winlter and not use his product for the next six months. i contest this issue with the businesses explaining -- here's

the thing, brenda. look, i'm not so sure that this deadlock in washington is keeping people from hiring. i mean, the economy to jonas' point actually is starting to recover a bit. we got 2.5% gdp in the third quarter. fourth quarter looks a little stronger. we're still hiring workers blaming washington for a slowdown in the business committee seems like pointing fingers to me. >> what do you think, tom? >> i have to disagree because the confidence right now in the system is at an extremely low level. i mean, entrepreneurs are not willing to go out there and risk capital to put back in the system because of the uncertainty that's going on in washington right now. >> so you want them to do anything is what you're saying. >> they have to -- listen, $1.2 trillion is a complete joke in itself. you have to go big and make the cuts now. >> a deal or no deal? really, that's what we're asking. steve? >> absolutely. we need one. >> ok. tom? you're saying. >> deal. >> deal. jonas? >> i'm comfortable with the automatic cuts as long as those don't get then put off.

>> so you're saying deal. you're saying -- >> i'm saying no deal is acceptable because the automatic cuts and the tax increases that kick are acceptable in my opinion. >> what happens to the economy if there's no deal? gary b.? >> i guess the biggest downside will be another ratings decrease which honestly seemed to have almost no effect -- the last ratings decrease we had so i -- the problem with a deal, brend is i know what's going to happen with the deal, you're going to see taxes go up and you're going to see promises for spending to go down. we'll never see the promises met. spending will not go down and taxes will go up so in this case, i'd rather see the sequester or no deal happen at this point. >> brenda, you give them more money to spend and they'll take. it you put more tax out there and we get more spending and i'll tell you what, you know what the greatest thing to happen? we get downgraded again because i'll tell you what happened, the

administration went on tv and went oh, my goodness, rates are going to spike if we get downgraded. treasury rates are at the lowest in history. >> you guys are talking big issues and like kind of bring it down to the people here like me and explain it a little bit more. when you talk to -- >> you want lower rates. that's better for growth. >> when you talk about downgrades, you're talking about ratings services who take -- who basically say we get an a or a b on our -- on our credit. right? like normal people do, it's basically credit history for the country. right? >> which is a risk of default, brenda, exactly which raises the risk of default of that underlying debt. our bonds. >> what does that mean for jobs? >> the point is -- what it does, brenda is actually i think it will encourage job growth. with rates low, companies able to borrow at low rates, they can create capital. they can create jobs in that environment. >> ok, so tom, bringing this back to jobs again. >> brenda, i got to tell you,

the uncertainty in washington that's taking place there is causing job creators not to hire people and spend on their businesses. that's bottom line. i mean, it's clearly evident out there in the system so no one right now is confident in spending in business until washington gets what they're doing in order there. >> even if they do something like spend more? >> you know, we're also seeing this -- we're also seeing this crowding out effect that we talk about with huge deficits and debt. it's very real when banks can borrow money from the federal reserve for 25 basis points and then invest in t bills, why all -- you know, to the tune as much of the fed will give them, why bother to make a risky investment, even a slightly risky investment in the private sector? we're seeing that happen, too. we need to reduce the deficit and debt. i know it's unusual for a democrat to say this but it's a big problem for the economy right now. >> ok. >> brenda, first of all, steve

is the best democratic strategist. he's the closest to reality, i think, of any of the strategists. >> oh, my gosh! >> on this show. i won't get -- tom makes one good point. i think whatever congress does one way or another is silly numbers wise. but i agree with him. if they do something positive, at least they would show they have a little bit of a backbone. that's the problem. because if they don't, we might as well, you know, be italy or greece for that matter and just say, oh, what the heck, you know, we'll spend whatever we want. we got our own currency. >> all right. don't worry, steve, you don't have to take that phrase and advertise it. all right? >> don't listen to him, steve! >> ok, bon jovi, bon jovi, yes, and bees, do they hold the keys to striking a super debt deal? you'll only get the answer on

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>> hi, everyone. live from america's news headquarters, i'm jamie colby. libya's minister of justice announcing the capture of muammar qaddafi's son. this was a picture broadcast on libyan tv and believed to show him with his hand injured. libyan troops say they grabbed him in southern libya near the border of niger. he was interviewed by a reporter from reuters and told the reporter that he was hurt in a nato air strike. white house says they cannot confirm yet these reports of his capture. and the son of former penn state coach joe paterno saying that his dad has a treatable form of lung cancer. paterno was fired by the university's board of trustees for his handling of a child abuse scandal and his long time

former defense coordinator jerry sandusky is accused of sexually abusing young boys. i'm jamie colby. now back to "bulls and bears" here on the fox newschannel. >> brenda: teachers unions fired up and new jersey governor chris christie firing back. >> cut the crap. you know i don't hate gym teachers. no parent would say that gym is more important than biology. >> brenda: teach science, make more? teach gym, make less. make sense to you? >> absolutely makes sense. what he's really talking about is let the free market work. right now wv a union protecting these teachers so they're all basically, you know, paid by seniority so an entry level gym teacher is probably making the same as an entry level chemistry teacher. governor christie is saying look, if the parents were

allowed to decide, of course the science and math teachers will get paid more than the gym teachers. that's the whole point of the free market that some skills are worth more than other skills. i think he's saying, let that work for crying outloud but, of course, with the unions, the free market doesn't exist. >> brenda: what do you say to governor christie? >> is a science teacher more important than an english teacher? or is a history? nobody knows any history anymore. >> brenda: gym teachers. gym! >> well, we have over half of our high school graduates cannot pass a physical to get into the military. that's how unhealthy our kids are today. it seems to me -- and we have one of the worst -- we have one of the worst levels of good science education of any oecd country. they're both failing. i don't think either one of them should be making as much as, say, an english teacher where at least our kids can speak english. >> brenda: don't we need more people learning about the periodic table than learning about playing dodge ball?

>> absolutely. i mean, everyone knows it's a problem with the lack of concentration in math and science. i agree with gary and agree with governor christie. the unions need to butt out. he's not putting down gym teachers. all he is saying is if math and science teachers do more, they should get paid more. there's nothing wrong with that. >> brenda: jonas, is there? >> you know, this isn't as easy as it sounds. i'm not for the unions but you said the free market, college football coaches make a lot more money than the biology teachers do. so who is adding more value? there's more athletes who make money in this country than biologists so you want to say the free market, you could make the case not to mention we have an obesity problem that causes this country a lot more than the lack of biologists. is that going to make more kids go to science? there's plenty of good science professors in college, no one goes to those majors. this sin -- isn't the solution

anyway that we don't have enough people going into those areas. >> does it anyone find it ironic that one of the heavier governors in the country doesn't like gym class? >> rope climb, kick ball, it was awesome. i have to agree with jonas on this, brenda, there's a big time toll that overweight and obese kids take on this country. in the health care system and so you look at physical education class, it has a health component, a diet component in some cases. and actually teaches these kids how to take care of themselves when the parents don't. >> brenda, first of all, how do we know -- he might have weighed twice as much as he did now. maybe he loves gym class and he -- anyway, second of all, jonas makes the point, look, if the high school athletes brought in the bulk of the funding for public schools, i would then say yes! let the gym teachers make a lot but that's not the case in high school. it is in college. that's why the free market does work. >> brenda: ok. >> high school athletics do

bring a the lot of money and aweden, they buy tickets to the games more than buy the science fair does. >> yeah, all the brownies sold in the bake sale. >> throwing more money at science teachers isn't going to magically make kids go into that or get better at it. we have a bigger problem than money to pay is going to fix. i don't want to down play the importance of phys ed in this country. >> brenda: won't this bring in better teachers, though? won't this bring in better teachers, tom? >> it will. that's a good idea. will it make kids go into it, that's not -- again, there's great professors of science in college but people don't choose that major. >> brenda: tom? >> yeah, i agree but i mean, ultimately, it's just more rhetoric from the unions. governor christie is doing exactly what he should do as governor telling the unions to butt out and let the free market work. >> brenda: skinny scott, don't make fun of fat people anymore, i'm getting sick of that. that's enough! be quiet. >> we need -- brenda, we need

accountability. we need accountability. >> brenda: you're out. >> that's all i'm saying. >> brenda: all right. all right. move over, occupy protesters. now, these guys are raging over retailers urging consumers to occupy their stores on thanksgiving dha. -- day. they may have a point plus -- >> my republican friends have yet to bring a single shred of evidence that the regulations they hate so much do the broad economic harms they claim. that's because there aren't any. >> brenda: wait a minute, regulations aren't hurting the economy? we report, you decide.

>> brenda: coming up, how about some post thanksgiving shopping? more retailers are opening their

doors. will there plans turn out to be stay turkey for sales? this year's hotte

>> brenda: from happy thanksgiving to happy shopping? more and more stores opening their doors for black thursday but more of their employees launching petitions trying to close down those plans and save thanksgiving. and jonas, you say this is a backfire on retailers who may only get ticked off workers in their store on thanksgiving. >> it's not just their workers. they might annoy the customers. you have a lot of attention going to stagnant wages and to say these working class people are going to have to work on a holiday to have super sales to compete with on-line retailers, it will leave a bad taste in the mouth of the consumer as well as the worker who has to do that. i don't think it's going to work.

you can't keep moving up the holiday to get more sales. eventually it's a zero sum. you're going to have more hours that might cost them more money. >> i don't know, gary b, we have 9% unemployment. it seems like they could find workers that could do this. >> exactly. look, whether it works or not is -- is not the point. if it doesn't work, then the, you know, the wal-marts and the gaps of the world will then not do it next year. but, you know, is it unfair to the employees? look, as you mentioned, brenda, we have 9% unemployment. these workers, a lot of them coming in hourly are getting probably since it's a holiday, they're probably getting double time. they're probably happy to come in. you're not going to see much disgruntlement especially from the shoppers out there. do you think people are going to be saying oh, my gosh, those poor workers. are you kidding? they'll be mobbing those stores as well as they open 10:00 thanksgiving night or whenever they're open. >> brenda: scott, are you going to be part of that mob? >> brenda, i'm going to avoid it like the playing. last year, i don't know where

you shop, they were disgruntled anyway. if the workers don't like it, you can quit. give the job to somebody else who wants it and join the other millions of americans that live off the government. >> brenda: you know, steve, the idea is to go on line in your pajamas and that's where you get the real deal, isn't it? >> that's what i do. i'll be shopping all day on thanksgiving on line except when i'm watching football or eating thanksgiving dinner. middle class ought to look at how to save some money here. they're up against a wall a little bit and this is a way to do it. shop on line, don't go through all the trouble of going out to all the big block stores. >> brenda: tom, what about you? >> years ago, said the same thing about businesses being open on sundays and that was big business for businesses. so i mean, can you imagine if stores weren't open now on sundays? i think you should take some of those occupy wall street protesters and put them to work on thanksgiving. >> something to do.

>> brenda: let me ask you a question -- would you buy something from one of those occupy wall street protesters? >> honestly? if it's legal. no. >> brenda: thank you, steve, very much for joining us. as promised, the company proving harry reid is wrong when he says regulations don't hurt the economy. >> my republican friends have yet to see a single shred of evidence that the regulations they hate so much do the broad economic harms they claim. that's because there aren't any. they've been committed to putting clients first. helping generations through tough times. good times. never taking a bailout. there when you need them. helping millions of americans over the centuries. the strength of a global financial leader. the heart of a one-to-one relationship. together for your future. ♪

>> brenda: predictions? scott, you're in the hot seat. >> brenda, senate majority leader harry reid is wrong, wrong, wrong about this one. regulations do hurt the u.s. economy. fight back against it with boeing flying up 20% in the next year. >> brenda: jonas, are you a bull or bear? what do you like -- do you like this or not? >> i prefer their customers, the beaten down airlines.

>> brenda: ok. we have gary b., your prediction? >> brenda, amazon, i like it. i like the on-line shopping that steve mentioned. i like the fact that they're challenging apple with their amazon kindle fire. i think the stock has 40% in it over the next year. >> brenda: thomas, do you think so? >> yeah, i think amazon has done great but 40% is a little bit of a stretch, i think. >> brenda: jonas, your prediction? >> the canadian government is replacing paper currency this week and other currencies with plastic dollar bills. so you don't have to criticize paper currency anymore. >> brenda: ok, gary b., bull or bear? >> i am bullish on it. i say it's been a snoozer. now it's the time for it to mauk a move. good call. >> brenda: ok. and thomas, your predictions, and scott? >> we like any chemical stock right now. they've been very well. we agree. what's your prediction? >> c&j energy services, they've been benefitting big time from the boom in the oil and gas market in the u.s. we think high