captioned by closed captioning services inc. >> tonight, the donald -- get this -- moderating a debate as a g.o.p. presidential candidate. and jon huntsmann says thanks but no thanks to the debate. >> that's to bad. we can sort of weed out -- we'll have more time for the people that are serious candidates. >> and donald drum isn't finished yet. plus "occupy wall street" protesters dare to take on rush limbaugh. >> rush limbaugh will not let his speech be occupied. wait to hearhe protesters. >> it's exciting and wild and

constantly surprising us all, the race for the republican nomination, newt gingrich turns the surge to the top of the polls. the downside as a front runner, he has target on his back. karl rove joins us. nice to see you, karl. everybody is talking about in the newt gingrich surge. you have a chalkboard with a different interpretation. >> he has moved up into the lead. there's no ifs, ands, or butt butss, but the best worth thing in politics to have your expectations exceed your grasp in two weeks, five polls came out. the speaker is a 38-24-26-22-23. where is he likely to be if you look at those? >> 25ish. >> 25, 26. let's give him the benefit of the doubt. 26 or 27. mitt romney, 17, 20, 22, 21, 22. where he is? probably likely 21-20.

so the speaker has a lead nationally but by no means does he have an impenetrable lead and the race is over. that's why the speaker has to be careful about saying things like i'm going to be the nominee, and when you look at the polls, there's nos, ands or buts about it. >> those poles are in the same region. the rasmussen poll is a departure. >> it's the only poll out of these held on one day, and you do try -- most pollsters like to have their polls conducted over several days and it has slightly different methodology with a short questionnaire. when you have a poll you have a margin of error, plus or mindous 3-1/2, 4%, 2 've you're always going to have an outliar so the clear politics average is better

than any individual poll. >> i'm struck by the national polls. it's because i'd be mostly concerned with the first three stages, iowa, new hampshire. >> you had be smart to be. >> i guess theoretically you could poll really high nationally but if you have no ground game in iowa come january 4th to get arch to come the caucus and to speak for you, you are dead in the water. >> well, look, that's true. again, let's not overestimate it. organization does matter. take, for example, the 2008 iowa caucuses. going into the election day, mike huckabee had roughly 30% of the polls. he got 34% that day. so, it does make a difference. the question this time around is, have the debates and the cable tv coverage changed fundamentally the dynamics, so that a candidate can outrun his numbers on election day just on the momentum of people self-selecting i'm going to the

caucuses and going to vote for my choice right now. >> let me jump ahead on this whole idea of the baits, -- the debates. whoever is the nominee in september or october is going to have a lot of debates under his belt and the president is going to be a little rusty on debates, not having had a challenger. does that matter? >> to the advantage of the republican, yeah. he will know what it's like, be comfortable on the statement, more comfortable than -- look, it's illustrative. president bush did not debate in -- had one debate in this 1998 re-election for governor, and it clearlyhart him going into the presidential contest in 1999 and 2000 because others had more robust debate practices and felled more comfortable doing it. so i think there's an advantage to republicans by this many debates. the debates began in late june. before july 1, in the obama

verse generic republican, obama is leading. after july 1, 80% of the time president obama has been tied or behind the generic republican from the time the debates started and started seeping into the public consciousness in july >> hypothetically -- how do you factor in the up employment rate -- dropped from 9.0 to 8.6 today. is that something that the obama -- can that move the dial for the president? >> the administration was smart not to come out and declare victory. more than half the decline in the unemployment rate came from 300,000 people saying, we're tossing again, we're no longer looking for work. we had 120,000 jobs. that's well below what the replacement rate. that's to say the number of new jobs we need each month in order to stay even. if you put the unemployment rate and calculate it on the size of the work force we have today,

president obama came into office, it would be 11%. there's also a thing called u6. the unemployment rate for those people who are unemployed, the 8.4, plus the people who are parttimers who really need and want fulltime work, and that's now over 17%. and that doesn't include the people that have given it up and packed it in and aren't even looking for work anymore. that probably puts us over 20%. so this number is -- it's good for the economyis and good for the business sector. they're starting to see a little bit of diminution of the unemployment rate and this will continue to create jobs, albeit not enough jobs, but the ordinary american is not going fee really embold end bipeds this number because that's a lot of bad numbers behind it. >> if you were running for office, which would you prefer or be strategically more

valuable to you tonight, endorsement by donald trump or endorsement by governor sarah palin, and i would. >> governor sarah palin. donald trump is an interesting guy. he could have brought a lot to the republican presidential sweepstakes but you're not a serious candidate if your first issue is the birther issue, that barack obama is not qualified because he was somehow not born in the united states. so sarah palin is a popular figure, particularly in the first state in iowa she has some strength, and south carolina, she has some strength in florida, particularly in north of tampa, st. pete, she has some strength and i'd -- >> the social conservative you're identifying -- >> i think that's part, and also sort of -- american nationalist, people who believe in america and have a great deal of pride and believe the america they grew up in is somehow sliding away. let me say one other thing.

she also has indicated she might be an independent candidate for president, and an endorsement by trump is going to be -- because of both the birther issue and his own declaration he could be an independent candidate for president, is going to be a little bit problematic. she is a much more powerful endorsement. >> your next choice. you can only win one. either iowa or new hampshire. which would you prefer to win? >> new hampshire. you like to win them both. >> of course. you want to win them all. you only get one. >> george h.w. bush won iowa. ronald reagan won new hampshire. presidentgeorge w. bush loses io bob dole, and the senior bush wins new hampshire. new hampshire has a better record of picking the candidate than iowa. there are exceptions. in 2000, george w. bush won iowa

with 31% of the vote and then got creamed in new hampshire. so of the two i'd rather win new hampshire but new hampshire doesn't seem to pay much attention to what iowa does but iowa is first in the row. >> can we assume that the democratic part believe that governor romney is the more dangerous candidate to him because they're running against him now? >> yeah. >> it's dicey to do that so i assume they made a calculated decision that romney is more dangerous candidate. rough him up and keep him from being the nominee. >> in terms of gingrich? do you think -- >> you know, it's hard to say. i think they adopted this strategy gingrich was not a serious contender and they wanted to rough up romney. i don't know. it's always dangerous for the other side to try and play in the other party's primaries because it tends to either not work or, more likely, boomerang.

>> why spend the money doing it? >> all the time raising money. giving the big bank account i think it's foolish. it's a mindset. indicative of the chicago style mindset which says, let's be on the offense, let's go after them even if it gets cute, and this is cute. >> what i was thinking was donald trump, i'd run ads spending time doing that. i would say, voted present when he was a state senator and now he is out there collecting money. that's how i would run against him. >> notice a couple of them have taken whacks about -- chris christie had an effective attack. the everyman spoke out about his phil failure to be involved in reigning in entitlement spending. >> flip-flopping, everybody does

it. governor romney has changed his mine. speaker gingrich has, but he has -- how do you handle the flip-flops when they come in at you? >> well, look. you're right. if people do change their minds, the question is do people say -- you changed your mind for a good reason and gave me a good explanation, or do you deny you changed your mind? and there's also volume. it's like, how often have you done this? and which sounds more authentic to me, what you said here or there? and there's no fast and easy rule about it. we have seen this in this campaign. an issue for mitt romney, who was pro choice in 1994 when he ran for senate and has since become pro life, and the question is, is it an authentic change or for the sake of poll sicks. >> i guess you can get away with, saying, look, i changed my mind or evolved or times have changed, but it's the volume. >> it's also the speed with which it changed some people

could say you were prolife today and prochoice 17 years ago. people get that. more problematic is speaker gingrich was for a no-fly zone this spring and a few days later was against intervening at all and now trying to say this is a nuanced view. but doesn't sound that way to the people who read the statements. >> immigration, an issue going to play in the general? seems to be something that the republicans are using to sort out the primary. >> i think it will depend on the language of the republican nominee in the general election. this is an issue being used in the primaries for various purposes. in the general election the question will be whether or not hispanic voters look at the republican nominee, whoever he is, and see who is welcoming and encouraging. this is not to say where are you on the issue? at the end of the day -- for example, my home state of texas, you talk along the rio grande to the latino voters and they're

wired up about illegal immigration, their farms and e.r.a. are being hurt by it. so they're tough on immigration but they don't want -- whatever candidate talks about immigration to depict them in a way that doesn't seem to be respectful and that's really key >> i don't think the democrats win by anything close to the margin last time, which was 68-3 2. i think the republicans are likely to win a much larger percentage because the number one issue in the latino community is the number one issue in america. jobs, jobs, jobs, and this administration -- the unemployment was supposed to be 6% today according to the president0s own document. don't take my word for it. go google the president's document issued 11 days before he was sworn into office, laying out the benefit of passing the stimulus program immediately and

there's a chart in there, and it says, unemployment today would be 6% and unemployment would top out at 8% by the end of the summer of 2009. and instead we have 34 months of unemployment above 8%. >> the way he recovers from that is from this date forward, 8.6 from now and next november, it continues to go down, down, down. i think -- you're right. a solid trend down. >> you're right. but guess what, it's not going to happen. what economist is saying we're going to have robust growth. a significant number are seasonal jobs created in advance of the holiday season because thanksgiving occurred so late this year. and we -- think about this. half -- more than half of the decline in unemployment occurred because 350,000 people walked out of the air work force and ge

up. >> they will vote. >> and it affects they're communities. at it not just -- look, even people who have jobs are deeply concerned about the economy and jobs because it affects the prosperity of their interprices and their communities. >> karl, nice to see you. straight ahead, everyone who has been waiting to see governor sarah palin would endorse for president, you're going to hear from governor palin next, and donald trump takes on a new role, debate moderator. he'll tell you all about it next. plus, rush limbaugh versus "occupy wall street." protesters trying to interrupt rush's speech. it's caught on camera. congratulations.

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>> did former alaska governor sarah palin make an endorsement for president? >> if voters decided they want ideological consistency they're going to pay attention to rick sanitorium who has been consistent on being a hardliner against iran and been consistent on wanting to protect the most vulnerable and the sanctity of life and consistent about

slicing the federal income tax, or get rid of it. and people will start paying attention to this other messages from other messengers. >> that might not have been an official endorse. but could such high praise give his campaign a boost? she kept saying the name, senator rick sanitorium. i was wondering if that's an official endorsement. your thoughts? >> first, probably say thank you. i actually tweeted that out last night. i was very appreciative of governor palin mentioning my name as someone who has been out there and been a consistent consecutive out there on the campaign trail and have a record to back it up0. so i'm pleased she would highlight me, and say thank you very much. i appreciate it. >> i got a grip or handle on

your strategy in ohio. you have a new ad coming out in the dedeman register and you say a number of republican leaders suggested the best way to win back the white house is calling a truce on social issues, like school prayer and immigration. that's not a truce, it's a surrender, which to me is a shout across the bow of some of your colleagues in an effort to distinguish yourself. maybe from from michele bachmann but from the others. >> that's right. we have the two leading counties who -- candidates who have not been particularly strong on the issues of life and marriage, no issues they provided any leadership on, and governor romney instituted gay marriage in the state of massachusetts when he didn't have to he actually violated the law and the constitution to institute gay marriage in massachusetts, and congressman gingrich has consistently tried to push the social issues aside.

marriage, life, and keep them out of any kind of contract or any kind of policy statement the republicans have put forward. so if you want someone who is willing to pull those issues aside and have them part of the debate, i understand like everybody else that jobs and the economy is the number one issue. so is strong families and so is a respect of human life and the moral issues are important for the core values of the country, and rick sanitorium is going to talk about all the issue is, not the high-profile one. >> we're coming to the point in the campaign, whether you agree or not, we're now beginning to see where the divide is, where the issues are, and made it clearer for the voters to make a choice. you brought up, of course, governor romney's -- is speaker gingrich wants to do a lincoln douglass style debate with governor romney. he has declined. your thoughts? >> i'd be happy to fill it. what i hear all the time, and my

response i get from these debates, people thing that newt and i have added a lot to the debate, and with a lot of knowledge and experience on a variety of issues and i think it would be a great debate to have the two of us out there talking about -- i think you'll find pretty consistent conservative values and different approaches on solving problems and those are the contrasts voters are looking for and be able to not just look at our vision but also look at the record and whether the record becomes up the vision. >> all right. you seem to like debates. how about donald trump's debate? will you be debating on december december 27th when donald trump is the moderator? >> absolutely. i know donald watches your show. donald has to quit saying that nobody is out there talking about manufacturing jobs. nobody is out there talking about jobs being lost to china and the rest of the country. i know donald doesn't think our campaign is doing all that well and he says that repeatedly.

but we are doing well and we're pecking up steam, and one of the reasons are is we're talking about that very issue and i have a plan that will revitalize the manufacturing sector of the company, including cutting the corporate tax, as sarah palin issued, on the part of manufacturers and processors to get the jobs back in america so we can be competitive and export instead of import those products. >> if you have a ground game in iowa. that's where you spent a lot o time. >> we're up to almost a caucus captain in every one of the 99 counties. but for christmas and new years, we're going to be there every day but three or four. >> so what's it like? what do you have in new hampshire? >> well, i'm in new hampshire. we have been focusing on new

hampshire. i did a ten-county tower last weekend, done a whole trip up to the north country today and back down here to map chester. i did a couple of editorial boards. we worked very hard in new hampshire. we planted the flag here 30 trips to the state, over hundred town hall meetings. no one other than the two guys living up here, huntsman and romney, has been here more than i have and we have 20 state legislators, state senators and county officials. we have a great team, and when we do well in iowa, i always say, iowa provides the spark, and new hampshire will provide the flame. >> well, of course, we're watching, and it is a fascinating race, senator sanitorium, thank you, sir. >> thank you very much, greta. appreciate it. >> coming up, journalist move over. donald trump is about to take over, at least for one night. he's going to moderate a presidential debate. donald trump is here to tell you why his debate is must-see tv.

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a surprise announcement from donald trump. he has taken a new job. not running for president or even vice-president.

donald trump has signed on to moderate a republican presidential debate and says this debate will be different. we suspect he is right about that one. we spoke to donald trump earlier today. nice to talk to you again, donald. >> hi, greta. >> what a stunner. we saw each other yesterday and i had no information that you're going to now be moderating a debate on december 27th in des moines. how did that come about? >> i got a call from the people at news max, which is a great group, and a large television network, and they came to see me and asked whether or not i'd be willing to do it, and it is a little bit of a change and a little bit of something different for me, and i said, yes, i would do it. i want to see what's going on. i mean, we want to get the right person in there. there's no question about that. so i agreed to do it. >> one of the responses already, even though the news is basically -- hot off the

press -- is from governor huntsmann and his campaign spokesperson says we have declined to participate in the presidential apprentice debate with the donald. we need a serious debate. i see that as diss of you. do you read it that way? >> hey nose noh chance of winning anyway so that's good so we can have more time for the people who are a serious candidate, and the other thing is governor huntsman called my office asking for a meet and i didn't call him back, which i could have and should have but he called my office asking for a meeting, and i'm sure, being a mormon, he will confirm that. so that's one of those things. i don't know about one of the other candidates about i think most of them would want to do

it. i think it would get high ratings and we have some serious questions. >> i've heard it also reported you're going to endorse afterwards. just to go back to this governor huntsman thing, can we assume he is not getting your endorse. at all if he won't participate in the debate or shouldn't i make that assumption? >> i don't know him. i don't like his policy on china. he wants to us roll over. his policy on china is so weak i couldn't possibly endorse him. so he is one of the people i would 'onot have been able to endorse under any circumstances. >> the report you're going to endorse after, tell me what the definition or "after" is. is that later the night or two or three weeks -- >> sometime after the dedebate. newt is coming up to see me on monday morning but i won't be doing an endorsement before the debate, but after the debate, sometime after the debate, i

would be certainly going to do that. >> have you thought about the format? do you think it will be different or what we're acoupled to? >> i really think we should stop with all the formalities. i watch the different moderatores get up and explain what the debate is about. a debate is a debate. we'll have a debate on the issues. we'll be talking about things like, as an example, opec, where nobody is talking about opec at the debates, or very little. china. india. other countries that are just taking our lurch right out of our mouths, and it's a terrible thing that's happening to this country. so we'll be talking about very important issues issues and talg about social issues and environmental issues maybe to a lesser extent, but we'll be talking about environmental issues and talking about lots of different things. one of the big things i believe and one of the big reasons that everybody comes up to my office is because i do have millions of

people that agree with me, that the rest of the world -- you know, used to be the opposite. but now the rest of the world is just absolutely taking advantage of the united states, and that should not be happening. >> if other candidates follow suit with governor huntsman and they will not participate in your debate, is that to you a sign that that is someone you would not endorse? is that sufficient reason not to endorse that person? >> sounds like it would be on the way. no question about that. no. look. news max is a very powerful organization. ion is the number one private television network and reach over 100 million people. i think it will do very well. i can understand why jon huntsman won't par tick. have been a little harsh on him, harsh on his views on china. i heard him two weeks ago during one of your debates talking about china and it was like a

total rollover and that's not what we need. they're taking the money right out our pocket. it's possible everybody will. we'll probably have a very large audience. >> all right. on monday, speaker gingrich is coming to see you. i'm curious -- i'm sure he will discuss the debate. if governor romney, the other front runner, says i'm not going do it, for whatever reason, scheduling conflict or just because i'm busy that night or have other responsibilities, or that he may join with governor huntsman and be a little harsher, would that be a reason for you to say, no, to governor romney in terms of an endorsement? >> i don't think he would say no. he is a very smart man. he knows -- and whether people like it or not, i get very high ratings on television. that's why i have had a show so successful for 12 seasons. >> but if you believe that and

they won't bother to show up for your debate, and if you believe that you represent the feelings of millions, that wouldn't have any bearing on your thoughts on endorsement. >> think they'll show up. they're smart and know we have a huge audience and will show up. this is a serious debate. some said, this will bev the apprentice. the fact is this is a serious debate, and a lot of people will be watching and i do believe they will mostly show up. >> what do you think the viewers are going to -- the debates fit into one particular mold, certain number of people ask the questions. this is something very different. this is a businessman who is moderating it houston do you think that the american people will view this debate? >> well, i think they're going to like it. i think they're going to watch it. i think we're going to ask some questions that haven't been askedded, some important question. little credence has been given

to the outside world and what the outside world is doing to this country and to our great country, and i think that's going to be a big part of the debate. there will be other issues we discuss, and we'll discuss all the main issues. but i think we're going to have a large audience. >> let me do the honor of booking. will you join "on the record" after the debate? >> absolutely. i wrote beautifully about your in my book. >> i'm told i can't talk about the new book until next week. it comes out next week. >> i reveal one thing right now. i speak very well of greta. okay? that one thing i can reveal. i have just broken something. the publisher must be fearous. i say great things about you, and i mean it. >> thank you, donald. nice to talk to you. >> thank you, greta. >> coming up, apple, google and facebook, all the high-tech companies are spending big, big, by money on giant new

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claims economic policies are favoring the rich. i'm marianne rafferty. you are watching the most powerful name in news, fox newschannel. >> 8.6%. the nation's unemployment rate, sees its biggest drop in more than two and a half years and that up sos great, sort of. the news is all not good the key reason for the drop is hundreds of thousands of people have quit looking for jobs jobs and are nt counted. job seekers are running into brick walls. technology companies are spending billions to build new facilityies but few jobs are created. how is that possible? nice to see you. so, explain

what happened in north carolina? >> made in north carolina, this the beautiful foothills of north carolina, beautiful area, just totally devastated in the last ten years by textile and furniture jobs moving over to china and other places overseas, and i have the 15%, 14-13% unemployment, and they're really desperate. i spent a lot of time talking to them. what happened is a lot of these factories being replaced with sort of data centers, these monstrous, huge buildings the size of several football fields that hold thousands of servers, and they power cloud computing, the things that makes iphones so awesome. but the places just employ servers and employ maybe 40 or 50 people at most so google and facebook and apple have all relocated to north carolina because the governments have given them great tax breaks, land is cheap, buildings are

cheap, people are desperate for work, and the electricity is cheap. >> when i read your article, i was stunned. our economy has changed so much. we really haven't changed our employment skills so much. but for this apple one you wrote about, that it costs an awful lot of money to build, only 50 jobs. but that's not even the worse part about it. the state of north carolina gave them enormous tax breaks breaksn order to build there and did so in quick order, $46 million in tax breaks. so somebody has to pick up that freight. so only 50 people get jobs and also the state has to come up with the cash for the tax breaks and. >> and north carolina rewrote part of the tax law to give apple more money, and 'apple is one of the most valuable companies in the world, competing with exxon, and yet they get enormous benefits to come there and the people in the

towns don't see any benefit from it at all. they barely see their tax rate goes down and none of them know anybody who actually works in these facilities. >> which is why our numbers are so bad in unemployment. we slip the jobs overseas and to the tent we're really efficient, we -- their jobs disappear. we don't need the people. i'm not suggesting we just add people but we don't need them because of the nature of the structure of our industry. >> right. this is what economists call the brony man problem. what happens to these 40-50-year-old guys who were braun where and blue collar workers and their jobs go overseas, what do they do? i i ask people in the job centers, are they going to get a job in technology, their parents? doesn't interest them. >> fascinating story, and i appreciate it. >> thank you very much.

>> this is a fox news alert. former democratic presidential candidate joanch mcgovern is hospitalized. he fell and hit his head on the pavement hours before he was scheduled to appear on tv. was bleeding but conscious and talking. taken to a south dakota hospital. the extent of his injuries are not nope but mcgovern lost his 1972 challenge against president richard nixon but continued to distinguish him. mcgovern is a life long advocate for u.s. and world food programs. stay with fox news for the latest on this developing story. >> straight ahead, don't mess with rush limbaugh. what happened to the "occupy" protesters who tried? well, it's caught on camera and you're going to see it next. a whole new field of dreams. why a basketball star traded his lakers jersey for a baseball cap? why outraged parents are calling their kids' congratulations.

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>> here's the best of the restrooms rush limbaugh squares off with "occupy wall street" protesters. here's what happens when they try to interrupt rush0s speech in new york city.

[booing] [booing] >> now -- [shouting] >> you know, when you see that, when you see that, i wonder, why am i paying thousands of dollars for security. [laughter] >> and then -- there's one --

[shouting] [shouting] >> you know, i have a coke clear implant and i can't hear what they're saying. but it's a sad thing. these are people threatened by the truth. i always -- i look at the "occupy" crowd down there and they've all got iphones and computers. how do they think this stuff happened in their protesting the very things and people and systems that made it possible to have those things. where do they think this stuff comes from? >> and rush takes the last word on that one, and a basketball legend is switching sports to baseball. magic johnson announced he is

joining a group trying to buy the l.a. dodgers, johnson says he loves baseball and has always been a dodgers fan. he is now teaming up with former baseball executives in their bid for the dodgers. wouldn't you prefer to see the dodgers sold to millions of citizens like the green bay packers? rather than a couple of rich guys? a christmas controversy in a new york school. a second agreed teacher told her students there is no santa claus. it happened during a geography class. the children knew about the north pole because santa claus; that's when the teacher allegedly told them the santa doesn't exist and its the parents who buy the christmas gifts. the parents explained now the entire matter is under investigation. if it is true, should the teacher who told their second grade students there irno santa, be fired. yes or no? go to greta wired.com and cast your vote, yes or.

no there you have it, the best of the rest. coming up, your last call. what are they using to decorate the white house this holiday season in a sign of the times. stay tuned. -on's the way to go. more people do that, securitwould be like a -- there's no charge for the bag. thanks. ♪ i know a quiet little place where we can get some work done. there's a three-prong plug. i have club passes. [ male announcer ] now there's a mileage card that offers special perks on united, like a free checked bag, united club passes, and priority boarding. okay. what's your secret? [ male announcer ] the new united mileage plus explorer card. get it, and you're in. explorer card. ♪ ♪ ♪ when the things that you need ♪

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>> greta: well, flash those studio lights because sit time for last call and a of holiday cheer at the white house? or is it? >> where are the holiday decorations at the white house is a 400 pound ginger bread house, and in front that have is a four-pound ginger bread foreclosed sign.