>> who is this guy? >> and the heisman trophy winner, andrew luck, trent itchedson or my pick, griffin iii. >> we'll talk about it on the after the show show. >> brenda: it's the pipeline versus the payroll tax cuts. republican leaders saying the keystone oil pipeline will pump out more jobs. that's why they're tying it to their payroll tax cut bill, but the president's threatening to veto that plan. he says extending the cuts will put more people to work. and the fight is set to come to a head next week. 's got it right. hi, everyone, i'm brenda buttner, this is bulls and bears. >> and tobin smith, jonas max ferris, and small business owner amelia a, and a senior

advisor at the treasury department. amelia, which will get more americans working, payroll tax cuts, or that pipeline? >> this shouldn't be hard for anyone to figure out. the pipeline. the tax cuts are temporary and not going to change the uncertainty for small businesses and not going to put that much money in the the bottom line for us to go out and actually spur unemployment, so, the pipeline absolutely hands down, short and long-term is better and for the future growth let alone changing the power to bring us as an alternative back to the u.s. for oil. >> brenda: you like those payroll tax cuts, huh? >> i do like the payroll tax cuts. the tax cuts pay for themselves. look, this pipeline, it's a pipe dream. it's not going to create the jobs that everybody says it's going to create. the g.o.p. is trying to mange it out to be that this is an environmental argument, that they're going to actually be able to pump in all of this oil, the oil sands to the gulf of mexico and a lot of people digging ditches for the pipe, but that's temporary amelia,

you're going to look at a couple of jobs and that's going to end. if anything it's not going to help the overall economy and not going to pump up a lot of oil supplies and bring down gas prices. >> brenda: and susan, what is todd shovelling. >> it might be freaky friday because i'm agreeing with todd. he's right this is a tiny drop in the bucket as far as the broader economic growth. the tax cut is going to give us as a minimum. 110 billion dollars pumped into the economy and taxes maximum 6 billion and tiny drop and these jobs, are not permanent jobs, a lot of temporary construction jobs. we need a much bigger, broader plan and the number of jobs they're talking about, 20,000, even those, they're talking one work year, could be over one job, this isn't 20,000 jocks, it's a fraction of what we need. >> and jonas. >> we're going to need a much bigger pipeline. look, in general, tax cuts

would be spectacular, but at this stage we have to pay for them with offsetting tax increases so it kind of neutralizes the effects. i'm all for tax cuts in a recession, we're not in a recession, we don't need to extend the fax breaks that is bankrupting social security, where it would go. we don't need further payroll tax at this. the pipeline doesn't cost the government money, the key difference at this point. >> brenda: okay, l.a. toby, come on. >> look at the logic here, if extending these social security, you know, rebates is what it is, if that creates jobs, when we end it next year, is that going to eliminate the jobs, can't have it both ways, number two, we're creating an asset with private capital. that's what it's going to be. and number three, remember, that all of that oil being displaced is oil that was coming from venezuela. you know, we're not in the business of building jobs in venezuela, he we should be in

the business of building jobs in america. >> air right about that, toby, talking a variety. the problem we use west texas intermediate fuel and you're only going to pump that out when it turns into petroleum out of the east and west coast, a very small part of the population that's going to get that gasoline. but that's 2 million barrels a day. >> brenda: how many jobs would it create? >> i think the pipeline is better long-term and short term vechlt. g investment. you're getting the small business going and employment going a little bit. the payroll tax i'm telling you, i looked at it and the bottom line, not a lot of money there for me to be able to turn around and say, ooh, now i'm going to have tax flow in my company. i'm not. it's not enough. not what the number one thing, saying as small business people we need. not the payroll tax, we need to rehaul the system. >> boehner is coming out and trying to say that this will--

he wants the pipeline there and trying to use the environmental card here and trying to create that argument. it's a lost cause for him. >> susan. >> yes. >> doesn't it lower oil, gas prices, too, doesn't that help the economy? >> you know, it could. it's not going to be in the storm though. that's the other thing to remember here, the payroll tax would be an immediate benefit starting in january in a couple of weeks, what's coming out of the pipeline. >> we already have it, susan. >> i know, getting rid of it. senator reed wants to bring it down further, but getting rid of it is a contractionary effect some say could be 1/2 a poi gdp. and we can't afford to lose a half point. >> and talking about not getting the payroll tax back to the employer and now talking about only giving it to the employee side of it and defeats the purpose of what the thing was suppose today do to help small business. they're talking both sides here. >> they don't know what

they're talking about. >> and to today, you said it would pay for itself, i payroll tax cut. how can that be? >> and just what amelia said. you're looking at putting the tax cuts in the hands, the discretionary income back into the employee and into the consumer and permit them to go out and spend. that's what we want and the best thing about a payroll tax cut. >> look, that social security-- >> oh. >> that's going to go broke this way, and that's the social security. it doesn't pay for itself. everyone would have social security, the bottom line, why it's a bad idea. dealt with an off setting tax increase. if they had a plan before it got lowered, the case in a recession, but today it's a ridiculous plan that has to be paid for and defeat the purpose. >> susan said if you had the gross domestic product at 2% that's going lower and we could be headed back into another recession in the first quarter of next year. >> todd. >> you want the consumer to go out and spend money and give

him a couple extra bucks. >> i can't believe we're going to argue about it. >> we have a 15 trillion dollar economy. >> how could that possibly push us into recession? you are sitting there, making numbers up and that beautiful head ever yours and that's not right. >> you're trying to tell me, you're going to stick this pipe through the middle of america and bring down the oil sands and a company like valero that's going to refine the stuff and that's going to help the economy? that's not going to help it, that's a short-term boost, if anything, that might do some things for the first six months as the payroll tax is much better for us next year. >> all the ancillary products, the steel piping, 65, 75% made in the united states and another 3000 jobs and big companies and well paying jobs and what's intriguing, is that actually the biggest importance of the pipeline happens to be the unions and they have it right this time and the first time i have he' ever agreed with them. >> toby, toby, can you speak to the issue about gas prices coming down, does that help the economy as well? >> well, you know, no, brenda,

now as everyone, the gasoline and oil prices are priced in the world, it's not the united states, the issue as we take less oil in from other countries like venezuela, et cetera, the canadian firms, the firms are actually more owned by american shareholders than canadians, it is a net positive for our country, economically, business-wise and it makes very sound sense because of the fact we're excluding oil from countries that don't like us much. >> the spending that toby is talking about he though is only the high end, some of that's spent and talking about the new construction jobs and manufacturing and add-on effect, they're tiny comparison to this tax cut. >> you're missing the point here. >> first of all, the employees have already been having, had the decrease and we've shown that you put another $1,000 in their pocket for someone making 50,000, only another 500 and it's going to be-- >> 50,000 is a lot. >> it's not for the economy and the whole point of this was to give the employer the

actual, the discount and now they're saying they don't want to do that. >> it's not right. >> that's got to be the last word. no doubt this will be a hot issue at next week's debate in iowa and neil will be there asking the candidates the tough money questions that matter to you, and he'll be there leading up to the big showdown with special shows, and special guests, ron paul, rick perry and big business leaders like home depot cow founder, bernie marcus and cyprus semiconductor tj rogers, the ceo of that company and many, many more. so tune in to fox and fbn. you don't have to wait long for neil or this video at the bottom of the hour. why he's saying this should be the scene of the next occupy protest. this, you've got to hear. plus, they were meant to take a swipe the at credit card companies, but is new efforts the only thing that these d.c. regulations are swiping is you? of how a shippingiant can befriend a forest

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>> good morning everyone, live from news headquarters, tens of thousands of people are moving into the square and protesting widespread election fraud. marching against vladimir putin and his party. the protests breaking out in other russian cities. demonstrators are demanding a new election and freedom for anyone arrested in protests this week. thousands gathering at virginia tech for a vigil, honoring the campus police officer killed by a gunman this week. officer derrick-- the gunman appears to have acted alone and does not know the officer. ross ashley, a 22-year-old student at another school is described as a typical college students making i hossible motie behind the murder-suicide. i 'm jamie colby, now, keep it

on bull and bears, on fox. >> brenda: our guys warned you about this. small business owners saying those rglations capping credit card fees are forcing them to hike prices on consumers, turns out, they have to pay more fees when folks swipe cards for small purchases and toby, as you've been warning, guess who they're passing those cuts to. >> yeah, you know, the consumers, amazing how capitalism works. if the government raises or costs are raised to a provider, the condition or service provide ser going to raise the fee and not going to cut the margins and we've talked about that. the second part when you have have 6,000 of revenue, this is a service, it has to come somewhere. and the debit card and $5 starbucks, an extra fee that 6 billion dollars has to come

someplace, and is that what dodd frank is supposed to do. >> brenda: jonas, you say it affects all banks. >> and this was something punishing merchants. merchanting with large ticket fees, those are shifted to the smaller merchants, the submarine $10 charge and ultimately to the consumer. that's where it belongs. the consumer paying cash was subsidizing the debit card subsidizing consumer at gas stations and starbucks, et cetera. it's not fair. if you're a cash person, this rule will save you money down the road because what's going to happen the merchant is ultimately passing the costs on the consumer and going to charge me 22 cents or whatever to buy $5 worth of coffee and when that happens by the way, on that thing they'll stop charging it just like they stop charging the debit fees

on people stopped saying, i'm not going to pay it, that's what happens. >> brenda: amelia, air nyour he nodsi. >> they're going to cash only, on the east coast. and west coast not a common. here is the price with cash, the debit here it is, i'm passing my costs and consumers need to understands this is what happens when there'ses rules and regulations businesses pass them through and this is what happens. >> brenda: what do you think? >> this isn't regulation, this is about the bank and jonas is right. there's a n ologoply. cash is so much are more expensive to them. he they just want people to

use debit cards. this is retaliatory move on behalf of the banks. the consumer debit card fee and get back from the durbin amendment. >> brenda: is there anything wrong with it, though, anything wrong? >> the problem that you have in the market there isn't enough competition, what i think is really encouraging the new players are starting to come on the market who are getting around the payment systems so you don't have to have the sort of held up prices by visa and master card and the credit card companies, where it's getting interesting. >> that's what entrepreneurship is all about. >> absolutely. >> the new problem, you're a private sector is going to go out there and figure out the problem. this is a conversation between the merchants and banks and merchant and customer and outsmart the system. >> cash is king. let's keep in mind. if the american consumer has not realized this yet. they have a problem. that's going to save them money. the only reason to use the debit card for convenience. if you want to take a look at point of sail checkout. you'll save money in the long

run if you just use cash. >> we have a history of anti-trust. specifically, on this usual issue. we can't pretend we're going to ignore anti-trust violations and they come up. but a lame attempt to deal with real problem na susan is talking about and in fact the it leads to less banks and innocecentivize and deal with ch which almost never works. >> brenda: thanks, guys. the nonunion boeing plant in south carolina, cleared for takeoff. as the government's labor board drops its complaint. so, why is someone here saying the board's bullying of america's companies has just begun? for a hot dog cart.

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>> coming up. the nonunion boeing plants in south carolina, good news for business, right?

>> i think that pro business is a positive move. the national labor relations board pitching its suit against boeing's nonunion plant in south carolina. think again senator demint and other lawmakers proves it's pro union since the decision came after boeing struck a deal with its union and calling for an investigation and todd, you agree. >> if you wanted evidence that's out there right now. nlrb is absolutely pro union, this is it. in their statement after they dropped the lawsuit, they said they're going after additional companies. and a fragile economic

environment. we don't need them to paralyze economic growth. >> who is this a win for? >> i think that boeing wins, the union wins, economy wins, u.s. exports, boeing is a huge factor in. i think it's a good thing. boeing was accused of something by the nlrb and the best way to prove that the claims had no merit was for them to strike a deal for their union and continue to create jobs in washington, i think this is great. >> brenda: okay. i know you don't-- >> here is what it did, spurred incertainty across the platforms in the business community. it shows again, exactly how quickly we can get dragged into something of no-fault of our own and it's had a domino effect. you don't think now that businesses are going to think twice what's happening here, that he's a dangerous individual and foreign money is not going to want to come here if this is going to happen. it's wrong from day one. they way overreached, way overreached and too many people allowed it to happen. >> brenda: jonas, is this a surprise to you? >> no, because, wasn't the

nlrb created by fdr to give unions power against retaliation. congress is pro management and nlrb is not supposed to be pro management, supposed to be pro labor. that's a stale concept, but that's the old school fight they have and basically you're retaliating against workers striking moving the job not to another country, but other parts of the country with low union levels. >> and saved toby for last, go get him, toby. >> jonas, my dear jonas, remember, this was five work stopages that affected almost 50 billion dollars over 20 years for boeing. and in the united states of america, a manufacturing company can't choose to locate its plant where it feels it has a lower propensity to have work stopages which could potentially kill the entire company, they're in the wrong country. >> brenda: hold on, susan. >> that's the point.

you're making the retaliation point right now what boeing was accused of. >> that's not retaliation, it's-- >> it's called margins. >> called basic economics and jonas has the right points. >> in washington, they did the right thing. >> and jobs-- >> and if a company, in dealing with it says we're not going to-- we're going to move the entire operations that's retaliating. >> exactly. >> and 30 years ago and-- >> if the cost of labor is too high, you want me to close up shop or move where i can actually make my money. >> and it's obvious the cost of doing business in this country when you have the nlrb in the shadows, that's actually going to prevent business development and business growth. it doesn't make us an innovative country. >> brenda: all right, that's got to be the last word. thank you, guys. and thanks to susan and amelia for joining us. up next, fighting terror with snow cone machines. and you're footing the bill. looking good! you lost some weight.

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>> redixes-- predictions, toby is up first. >> amazon, five bucks back from the store. amazon is killing it, i think they're up 25%. >> brenda: jonas. >> i think it's a great company, but stock is too expensive. >> brenda: todd your prediction. >> and in the european union wonderful for stocks and say everything we want them to say. go and invest in the s & p spdr. >> tobin you like it. >> i'd love to see it, half if we're lucky. >> brenda: jonas your prediction. >> someone homeland security would think would be good for