>> there's clayton going under into the shrinkage. >> rick did it and congratulations to all of you, thanks so much. >> raised over $10,000 at wounded warrior, check it out. wounded warrior project.org. >> and the after the show show.less than stellar debut. the real stock shock, the dow. stocks suffering their worst week of the year. the culprit. europe's debt crisis and america's debt ain't exactly helping either. the solution, former president bill clinton says tax hikes for everyone and someone here says he's right. hi, everyone, i'm brenda buttner, this is bulls and bears, let's get to it. the bulls and bears this week, gary b smith, tobin smith. jonas max ferris and christian dorsey, welcome to everybody. okay, toby, hike everyone's

taxes to solve this debt crisis? >> well, as great britain came up and decided to tell the truth that no one else is willing to say and we've been saying on the show for years, you can only kick the can so far and by the way, if 50% of them taxes and 20% of people pay all the taxes, somebody's got to kick in more. now, we keep think it's the 1%, but we know if you took all of the income of the 1%, and taxed it 100%, we'd still be 5 trillion dollars in a deficit. so, guess what, everybody's got the pain coming and that's what i've been saying for a long time. >> brenda: finally, you get to use that one, waiting for years. gary b, i don't think he's your brother anymore, toby? >> no, there is absolutely no relation, whatsoever at this point, look, that's the slipperiest of slippery roads. basically, toby is saying and people that want to raise taxes, period, are saying, big government is good. >> i don't want to say i want

to raise them, they're made. >> i think we ought to go the opposite way, we need a philosophical argument. what's the proper size of government. all aspects of government. too bloated, it's ineffective and inefficient. we can't pay our bills even with tax increases across the board. government spending, whether it's entitle spending or discretionary has to be cut. we need to keep more of our money that we earn and the government needs to get back to the basic, it's infrastructure and that's about it. >> brenda: jonas, the bottom line is that with-- we're talking about lots of zeros, trillions and trillions and cuts in spending at this point, with all of the entitlements that we've been promising will not be enough. >> no, there's no way it will be enough. bill clinton is sort of half right. we had across the board tax cuts before so we're going to need across the board tax increases to run a balanced budget and the spending levels

of the clinton administration, all the spending has grown faster than inflation as well and defense alone. 50 to 70% adjusting for inflation and so we have to go to those tax levels across the board and less government spending and everyone is going to have to get less than government and pay more. and hopefully we can do it over a long period and not cause an overnight collapse. >> scott, do you agree with that? >> brenda, i think jonas brought up something important, the balanced budget of the clinton years, it wasn't early, brenda, when he hiked taxes in 1993 on corporations and high income earners, the balanced budget actually came after the tax cuts of '97 when capital gains were hit and so was the high income earners, that's the deal. we have to get growth going. you saw the.com boom of the '90s, we've got to have lower tax policy to get people

investing again. >> brenda: it's a very different time with the clinton years we were in the middle of an internet bubble at the time. and was the recovery as tepid as now, is it time it hike people's taxes? to take more money out of their pockets? >> it's not, brenda and actually bill clinton said that, we should wait until economic conditions improve. he didn't say we ought to do it right away. he said when recovery is afoot and have the growth of the late 90's, we ought to have taxes of the late 90's, not that controversial point. i want to go back to something gary said. a philosophical coughings conversation about government. they're not talking reducing they want to spend on different things. if that's the paradigm. we have to raise more revenue. >> brenda: gary, go ahead. >> he's right. but here is the problem,

everyone wants to and i hate to use this cliche, but they want to kick this can down the road and this is the same kind of problem, we are-- we've talked about this so many times, we're greece, we are spain, we're portugal and doing the same darn things, no one wants to step up to, we will never be an i believe to raise taxes enough. we're going down the wrong road and yet, the bill clinton comes up, let's raise taxes on everyone. and when, you know what government is, more of the money they take in. it's ridiculous. >> gary, my point is this: we already have 40 trillion dollars of promises we've made for medicare, we have another 15, 20 trillion in social security. just that alone. now, those promises have been made. if we're not going to deal with the fact that we have to reduce the promises, anathemma to everyone, somebody's going to have to pay and clinton is telling everybody has to pay.

>> brenda: it's interesting, the u.s. government spends more per person than many european governments. we're saying we're not like them, but in fact, we are worse than some of those socialist countries. >> and there's very few countries where you get more from your government than in america, both in taxes and spending, and that spending has been easy for governments of both sides to get through and it's the cuts, it's the reduction, it's the simple things adjusting the aids when you get benefits for longevity and nobody wants to do those things and they say took it out of office, and so they take about the mysterious small items, some kind going to the trillions of dollars we're going slowly in the hole on. and unfortunately the path to cutting taxes is easier than the path to medicare and social security, unfortunately. so probably see it more tax based and spending cuts as well. >> brenda: well, you know, scott, tax hikes, even on the

rich will trickle down, won't they, in terms of lower growth. in temperatures of lower hiring, everybody pays for tax hikes, even on the wealthy. >> yeah, the wealthy are your small business ownerses which are the half the creators of gdp in this country and more than half of the job creators. yeah, it trickles down to the bottom, brenda. i think we've got to be careful at looking at tax policy going forward because we do all of the projections, oh, what if you increase the capital gains to 20% or the top tax bracket from, you know, 35 to 40. you know, so we go et the numbers out there, but if you look back at history all of the numbers are fooey, they don't work, they actually project out completely differently according to the cbo. and same with the capital gains rate cut that we had in the 2000 era. it never came out to be the cut on gdp or anything, it was a net gain of the treasury, nobody realizes that the numbers are just projections, they're never real. >> and the farther out you go, the bigger they get, right?

>> 80% of the people take more money for the government than they pay in. that number does not work and that was, something's going to bust. >> i've got to give gary b the last word here. >> why? >> because i want to. [laughter] >> not toby? look, jonas made the good point. unfortunately, the politically easy thing to do is continue to raise taxes and the other thing that scott alluded to, no matter how much you raise taxes percentage of revenue per gdp is going to remain the same and we'll never be able to pay our bills. >> brenda: okay. toby. >> that i can agree with. >> brenda: very good. all right, talk about take the money and run, people pulling billions from their bank accounts in europe as fears take hold. could we see the same here? and why today's g8 meeting of today's leading is looking more like an emergency summit and we're on it. first, who says fair and balanced stock debut was a

flop? why everyone here says everyone in america should be celebrating like these guys right now. from helping to revitalize a neighborhood in brooklyn... financing industries that are creating jobs in boston... providing funding for the expansion of a local business serving a diverse seattle community... and lending to ensure a north texas hospital continues to deliver quality care. because the more we can do in local neighborhoods and communities, the more we can help make opportunity possible.

♪ why do you whisper, green grass? ♪ [ all ] shh! ♪ why tell the trees what ain't so? ♪ [ male announcer ] dow solutions use vibration reduction technology to help reduce track noise so trains move quieter througurban areas all over the world. together, the elements of science and the human element can solve anything. [ all ] shh! [ male announcer ] solutionism.

the new optimism. of how a shipping giant can befriend a forest may seem like the stuff of fairy tales. but if you take away the faces on the trees... take away the pixie dust. take away the singing animals, and the storybook narrator... [ man ] you're left with more electric trucks. more recycled shipping materials... and a growing number of lower emissions planes... which still makes for a pretty enchanted tale. ♪ la la la [ man ] whoops, forgot one... [ male announcer ] sustainable solutions. fedex. solutions that matter.

>> live from america's news headquarters, i'm kelly wright. while moments ago president obama welcoming leaders of the world's major powers at camp david, the president hosting the annual g8 summit and the issues at the forefront, iran's nuclear program and international response to the ongoing slaughter in syria. tonight shall the president departs to chicago to host the 2012 n.a.t.o. summit. the u.s. state department confirming a famous blind chinese activist is headed to the oust. cheng guangcheng is headed, in a wheelchair boarding a flight bound for new jersey. he escaped house arrest nearly a month ago seeking sanctuary at the u.s. embassy in

beijing. i'm kelly wright. we take you now back to bulls and bears. ♪ . >> brenda: no big pop for facebook stock. its opening day failing to live up to the hype. why is gary b saying this chart is good news for all of us? gary b? >> well, brenda, i think it showed a little insanity, if, close as you're going to get to insanity with the facebook ipo. it opened at $38. i thought there was a possibility it could end up in the 90 range, i mean, that's how, you know, much people wanted to own the stock at least the retail investor. thank god, it ended the day just above the $38 range. i think that showed, people are kind of waiting to see where it settles down, i think that's smart, good. anti-bubble, which is we want at this point. >> brenda: scott, you're not so clear that it's such a good thing that everybody's not partying like it's 1999, huh?

>> no, it's not, brenda. i kind of was until the stock didn't go anywhere, you mentioned it, everybody was into this stock, brenda and nobody made any money on it other than wall street. this was main street's chance to get in on something hot and i disagree with gary completely. i wish it ran up into the 80's, what would have happened, chances are the individual investors, my clients could have gotten in and made money and instead the stock didn't do anything, just made money for facebook who had the shares prior to the ipo. >> no, no. >> brenda: christian, perhaps it was a sign it was praised right? >> i think it was priced right and this is nothing to do with a down day for main street. main street wasn't a part of this from the get-go. this is know the open to the main street retail investor. >> it is now. >> the main street retail investors are only about 20% of the population, that's how many people directly get involved in stock activity. this is not a main street thing, this is finally the

financial-- >> the ipo ever-- >> it didn't matter. the number of people exposed to the stock market is incredibly small and shrinking. >> brenda: and facebook kind of loses face, not really. it didn't go above what it started trading at. is that good or bad. >> i don't know how it's going to pop at 100 billion-- and layout like a thousand-- anyway, the point is, i think it's a little bit of right said here. we're not in a stock bubble, which is great and other stocks apple and google traded relative to facebook, but i think because the typical investor has kind of lost interest in stocks. and it's an expensive stock and want to see it-- >> never thought i'd hear you say that. >> toby, there's still lots of bubbling going on out there, and other tech stocks may be coming to the market. >> 25 private companies worth

more than a billion dollars the. >> i'll take the other side. we created 100 billion of wealth today and despite christian's idea it's bad to create wealth. 100 billion of wealth is recycled in the silicon valley and create literally, 100 or 2000 new companies ap create hundreds of millions of jobs and we're a capitalist country and this was capitalism's finalest day and to pooh-pooh it because only so many people got stock, wealth creation in a real economy. >> and you missed my point. i didn't say it was a bad thing. i think it's actually a good thing. i just don't think that we can describe this as a great day for main street. main street is not exposed to the level to-- >> how about-- >> that's not the point. what i'm suggesting, i finally think that wall street is getting it right. valuing companies appropriately so that we don't see bubble main. i think where facebook ended up is about right and that's a

positive thing for markets moving forward. >> i think the take away is that america goes from a dorm room to 100 billion dollars market value in a few years, you can get a billion dollars in earnings going out of nothing. in a few years, no other country pulls that off with the regularity of america, ultimately why we won't wind up looking like greece down the road. we've got the stock market and startups. >> brenda: it's important to remember that the nasdaq is down about 40% since the last bubble popped. >> and get facebook in the nasdaq, get it in there. >> 150 new millionaires made today and those new millionaires are going to create millions of new jobs, in the next-- and i think tax revenues. >> brenda: and the new fashion phenomena of the hoodie. >> where is my bull and bear hoodie. >> brenda: good debate, guys. thanks so much. one of the facebook co-founders doing something right now that could be proving we need a tax cut right now.

you'll only get that from the cavuto gang at the bottom of the hour. but first, as president obama's meeting with european leaders at his g8 powwow today. new worries run on banks over there will turn into a run on banks here. should you run for cover? [ male announcer ] at scottrade, you won't just find us online, you'll also find us in person, with dedicated support teams at over 500 branches nationwide. so when you call or visit, you can ask for a name you know. because personal service starts with a real person. [ rodger ] at scottrade, seven dollar trades are just the start. our support teams are nearby, ready to help. it's no wonder so many investors are saying... [ all ] i'm with scottrade.

my high school science teacher made me what i am today. our science teacher helped us build it. ♪ now i'm a geologist at chevron, and i get to help science teachers. it has four servo motors and a wireless microcontroller over the last three years we've put nearly 100 million dlars into american education. that's thousands of ks learning to love science. ♪ isn't that cool? and that's pretty cool ♪ isn't that cool? and that's pretty cool do you guys ride?

well... no. sometimes, yeah. yes. well, if you know anybody else who also rides, send them here -- we got great coverage. it's not like bikers love their bikes more than life itself. i doubt anyone will even notice. leading the pack in motorcycle insurance. now, that's progressive. call or click today. aarrggh! >> remember the bank run during the financial meltdown? someone here says it's happening again. is your cash at risk. one stop ready to pop a

>> barack obama powwowing with g8 leaders. top elk topic number one,

downgraded. folks there are yearning money out of banks, more than a billion out of one spanish bank after getting taken over, and from greek banks. scott says we could be seeing this in america. scott? >> brenda, look, it's a real scare. i mean, we went through something similar in 2008 by the way, europe really didn't have, so it makes sense it's rolling over there now, but it's a vote and two things, one a vote on the economy and people get scared take the money and run and it's a vote on the government and that's a difference here we saw in 2008. the government will come in and save us. the fdic via other purposes. the government is over in europe and the citizens have no faith in them and taking the money out and the government even though we don't like government involvement. is going to save us. >> and gary b. you feel safe, don't you? >> i do. actually, and in fact, the more the countries overseas will call not just european countries. the more troubles they have.

i think the more secure we've become because we are the default safe haven in the world. and i'm not worried, and scott mentioned the fdic. look, i suppose it's a 1% chance there's a run on our banks and i highly doubt it. in other words, i'm not worried. >> yeah, but jonas, long-term, long-terms, we may have recessions, we may have high interest rates and have huge deficits. a lot of the problems that are plaguing the european countries. doesn't that worry you? >> they, you know, they've got a situation where people are scared the money is going to turn into other currency as the countries break off from the euro. i don't think that could happen in america, but i don't think we should take it for granted to be this place to safety. and we can scare moan away for bad tax policy where money doesn't want to get taxed and disappears, even though it should and it will. and we're running our government and money likes to be in america in spite of our government. because this is where the facebook are and the good

investments are, and a goddess nation of capital and the returns, and i think we'll be okay, but we should watch the scary money. >> and the u.s. and greece very different in many ways. >> absolutely. if you look at the relative position of the u.s. we're looking great as gary said. first of all, our currency is sovereign. we don't have levels of unemployment like we're seeing, for example, in spain. we don't have treasury draining corruption, in terms of job creation and in terms of raising revenues, our relative position is great. that doesn't mean we say hallelujah, but we also don't mean to panic and think what is happening in europe is going to happen here. >> toby, is the worry not so much the banks, but the big bank here, behind the bank, the fed, essentially? >> yeah, let's not forget that in 2008, basically, september 14th. we had our own bank run. we had 738 billion dollars, and we had tarp and everything else, so, we've proved at that we could stop a bank run, but

the bigger picture. as long as we're now in that situation where the fed is going to create another, you know, four or five trillion dollars of cash and if that gets into the economy, inflation goes up, interest rates go up and my friends, that's a different story. >> you see that long-term, short-term? >> look it, we've said silly, stupid things in the last five years, nothing would surprise me. we have proof that our system is sound because it does have a fed. when the fed's gone wild that i start to get-- >> last word to scott. >> brenda, look, they get their money from charging premiums to banks from being there, behind the fdic is the taxpayer. so if people go out and take their money out of the bankment you're running for your own money. >> brenda: very good point. thanks, guys and thanks to christian for joining us, we appreciate it. >> thank you. >> brenda: and some say built run from all banks and the bank you should be running to, and no matter what happens to

facebook, what high-tech is set to take off. mine was earned off vietnam in 1968. over the south pacific in 1943. i got mine in iraq, 2003. usaa auto insurance is often handed down from generation to generation. because offers a superior level of protection, and because usaa's commitment to serve the military, veterans and their families is without equal. begin your legacy, get an auto insurance quote. usaa. we know what it means to serve.

>> predictions? and jonas, you're up. >> okay, maybe facebook is expensive. but the tech stocks are cheap and find the vanguard technology and get the apple and googles and those a. >> brenda: scott, a bull or bear on that? >> that's no friend of mine, i'm a bear on that one. >> brenda: what is your prediction, scott? >> lqd is an etf of index corporate bonds. everybody is buying our treasuries and loving our corporate bonds and pays a nice dividend. >> brenda: jonas, a bull or bear? >> not that low yield. >> brenda: toby your prediction. >> one bank that's safe and that's wells fargo, whatever jp morgan is doing, they're going to take share, ng up by 25%. >> brenda: scott bull or bear. >> i wouldn've