thanks on our panel. >> john: if you speak out against islam you will be marked for death. >> thank god we have free speech but do we? >> they want to make sure you are not heard. >> he got fired and so did he and she and he. americans say they support free speech. >> you should be allowed to say what you feel. >> john: but many say something else. >> i think it should be a law against it. >> john: bad speech and what to do about it. that is our show tonight.

[ applause ] >> john: i have a weird job. i get to say things some people don't like. some might call it bad speech. i have a studio audience and who knows what nasty stuff some may say. any of us may say things that may hurt your feelings but my bosses let me do that. it's one of the jiogs of living in an open society but not every commentator gets to keep his job. bat buchanan lost his, what hoe

wrote in this book was not appropriate and he wased the so what did you write. >> it at as titled the end of white america that had theth can nts sounds the? >> it was of are an go magazine. so why would it be racist to change the ethnic composition of a nation. >> john: there was european descent is what i'm talking about. eno core of the country. countries are being torn. >> and this is most powerful force on earth. it's far more powerful for the desire for dempsey. >> you have been saying stuff for like this for years. you have been on msnbc for 'ten years. what changed. why did they fire you now? >> the reason was various organizations which i would call censureship, color of change,

van jones' crowd and homosexuality. >> you said it's unnatural and immoral? >> that is the basic fundament position of the catholic faith which i belong. that is correct. why i objected they can't censure you a but what they do they attack. they would attack fox news and try to get to rupert murdoch and others. they organize and get emission in. they get letters and calls and start saying, as they do with rush limbaugh. take his ads off or we won't buy your products. you get several hundred thousand people doing that to a small network and they will listen. >> john: your ex bogs said your ideas are not appropriate for national dialogue. i don't agree with you a lot,

but the idea that it's not appropriate for dialogue puzzles me. >> this new ideology of political correctness there are some ideas and thoughts that are ruled off the table forever because the issues have been decided and we can't bring them up. my old boss he can say what is acceptable on msnbc. >> john: you agree he has every right. i don't like these ideas, you are history? >> he certainly does. they have a right to hire and fire anybody they want. that is why i say we ought to focus on the organizations that brought it about. >> john: color of change, they say you peddle white supremacist etiology. >> john: that whites are a better group, european whites formed america have better ideas and they are better if whites are in charge. it sounds like that is what you

say. >> if you say europeans had better ideas in terms of the ideas that created this country, they sure the devil had better ideas in 1976 --1786 and 1789, the qoogs. >> john: think progress, another group that attacks you and me listen list a few things, child abuse at penn state happened because of homosexual marriage. they say you said that. [ laughter ] >> that may have been the absence. [ laughter ] i don't want to blame your researcher. >> let me say that is an excellent example. that is an example of absurdity and stupidity.

i don't even know penn state had occurred at that time or not. assistant coach at penn state. >> john: all great nations punish gays? >> i do think all great civilizations have frowned upon homosexuality as the terms i used as unnatural and immoral and considered it outside the realm of a healthy society. i did not use that exact term, but they have all considered it abnormal. that is correct. >> john: lastly, president obama's noble prize was the result of affirmative action? >> it wasn't the result of anything he did. no, i think.... [ applause ] >> let's put it this way. it was an anticipater to prize in the hopes that great things would be done. >> john: they gave him a prize? >> there is affirmative action

of black obama. he wrote a letter when he was harvard it was a chinese student that complained about affirmative action of being brought on and he admitted in this letter he had benefited from affirmative action. certainly sodomeyer did. i am a great believer of opportunity but not equality of result. but the people that should win the race are the ones that run and win it and the idea we're going to have a society where everybody is the same at the end of the line and people who don't work hard or don't have the ability, they get the same rewards as those that do, i'm against that. i believe in freedom. >> john: hank williams was fired for monday night football. are you ready for some football because he said that john boehner's golf game with

president obama was like hitler playing with netanyahu. >> i don't think he would do anything to hank williams junior for that. it's a metaphor that doesn't work well, but you don't throw the man off the air. hank williams, jr. he is national treasure. >> john: what about your successor at msnbc reverend al sharpen. he is there and you are not. >> i have argued with him and that decision of msnbc. >> john: she said white folks were we tuart astrology and mathematics then those greek homos ever got around to it. >> i would disagree with that statement.

i'm not going to respond to that because i can't believe that al sharpton made that statement. >> john: years back. >> was he in high school or what? >> john: no, twa about 10, 12 years ago. >> it's a very foolish and it's a silly statement. >> john: are you bitter? >> i 0 lot of friends atness ms nbc and i regret it's over. it's like john, it's all business. >> john: you and i are members of the american overclass. >> i didn't think i grow up -- >> but do minorities have more license to criticize studios. >> if a white person says something against me i have major problems. >> john: what do you think about that? >> i'm afraid there is some

realitity in what is being said there. there is a lot of african-american books that use the "n" word against each other. that is prerogative and i don't think we sudden should use those kinds of terms. >> john: but white men had power for years. >> i don't know when you grew up. i grew up in catholic ghetto in washington, d.c. where we were outnumbered ten to one. they were wonderful schools. we were not the power elite. i grew up in the goldwater campaign. >> john: white men have more power and more money. i'm not say we got it. >> what do you want to equalize it taking away from one group and give it to another? >> john: i say they have extra license to attack, minorities. to attack us to use rougher

language. >> why? >> john: because we have the power. >> in a free society what you and i have accomplished or what we have in terms of access in the media in terms of wealth and in terms have our homes, i gather we got it honestly through hard work and effort and maybe some luck also. all right? and other people did, as well. oprah and others and african-americans they succeed in television and entertainment and athletics and in music and all these areas and nobody should deny them what they have. but i don't think envy or racial hostility on the part of any race toward another is something we ought to condone or frankly sit still for. >> john: thank you pat buchanan. coming up, i'll explain why the group that got pat fired wants

me fired. they say my ideas are hateful and backward but at least they wanted me fired and not killed. next we'll meet a politician that has been marked for death because of what he said. [ applause ] sarah... will you marry me?

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test easy. >>. >> john: for some it seems intuitive. some speech is so hurtful, society is better off. they tend to supported free speech right up to the point when it offends them or scares them. kurt has been marked for death. that is the title of his new book "marked for death," because he said some things that people didn't like. he attacked islam and he was pout trial in holland. >> put on trial for three years,

a criminal trial even because i made a compared the quran with mein kamph. >> john: they charged you incitement of hatred. >> and discrimination of muslims or people that are immigrants in the netherlands. it was terrible ordeal. it cost me a lot of money and energy. i am a member of parliament leading the third biggest party. fortunately i was acquitted after three years on all charges but if you speak out against islam, you will be marked for death, a my book is called. you will be banned from certain countries. i will be put in front of the bench for trial. >> john: for saying what you did

you took personal risks. crazy if a national particulars, you go in public you wear a bulletproof vest. you are careful about your security. that is unfortunate. it's another step where your own country, you don't have a first amendment in holland? >> exactly. this is what we need. this is what we can learn from the united states. free men and women should never be intimidated or harassed for speaking the truth. to make your own movie but to take somebody to court for free speech or threaten them with death is the worst thing that can happen. >> john: the writer mark stein says, in amsterdam you are free to smoke marijuana and pick out a half naked sex partner but pout trial for holding the wrong

opinion about a bloke who died years ago. >> anybody who dares to tell the truth and speak out in favor of freedom and against the islamization of our society gets the same. >> john: some would say you are way over the top. its dangerous etiology rather than a religion. there are two billion muslims on earth and most are not trying to murder people. >> this is entirely true. i make a clear distinction between people and ideology. i have nothing against people. i have nothing against muslims. i acknowledge the fact that they are not terrorists and it's ridiculous only to state it, but there is a difference between the people and ideology. i believe the islamic ideology should not be compared to other religions. it's not like christianity or judaism, it has to be compared

to communism or far. you are not free -- you not free to lead islam. if somebody wants to lead islam you are eligible for death and should be killed according to quran. this was the case with communism and fascism. i'm proud to say that our values that are based on christianity are far better, even superior than the barbaric islamic failures. you noort racist if you state that. you are a citizen we are who we are and we are not islamic. this is what we should be proud of to say. >> john: thank you, mr. wilders. next, people want me fired from my seat. this man was told that his sign protesting the government is

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[ applause ] >> john: i've been embarrassing myself recently traveling the country. title of my new book, i have a fantasy that people will make copies of this and no they can't if we give politicians more money and power they will solve our problems. here a family in california put a copy and put it on their house. some people don't like this sign. at the airport they took it for inspection and returned it in pieces. i had to make this new one. i don't claim i can carry

protest sign through airport security but on my own property i would think so. but in norfolk, virginia he put this sign on his property. after 50 years on the street, 78 years in norfolk, he and hundreds of workers are threatened by politicians who want to take his business through eminent domain. they condemn your property for what they call public use. after he put the sign up, it violates zoning rules and ordered him to take it down or pay fines of a thousand dollars per day. the sign is still up because the institute for justice took up the case. they paid first amendment lawyer steve simpson to defend the businesses right to protest. what did they say was wrong? >> they said the sign was too big. this is a sign that is 375 square feet. bob wilson whose client put the

sign on the building because he wants to be heard. he is really angry that his land is being taken so he put the sign that you just saw up there. city says take it down or a thousand bucks a day once you got involved? >> oftentimes they will come out with guns blazing and then they find out they have lawyers on board and willing to sue them, their tune changes, maybe we really didn't mean it. >> john: nobody knows what the rules are i assume. on a city building in this town, here is banner advertising the hockey playoffs which is much bigger, more than twice the size of central radio signs. >> that is right. you drive around the town you will see all kinds of signs on other buildings that are as large as if my client's sign old dominion university is the entity that your client's land is going to be taken to be used

for. >> john: let's get the background. central radio, 75 years did work for the navy. these days they install surveillance cameras on ships. suddenly the redevelopment housing authority declared the property blighted and thought local judges to approve to be taken from the owner and given to this university for a student center. >> it's absolutely ridiculous. the building is not blighted. >> and eminent domain is another issue. let's stick with the free speech issue. we talked to the attorney and some of the statements, zoning statutes get tinkered with every few years has made it daunting and convoluted to understand. nobody knows what the rules are and they keep passing more. >> that is an understatement they get convoluted. i've been a lawyer for 18 years. i frankly can't tell why it is some of these buildings are allowed to have banners on them

and our clients are not. >> john: it could be a safety issue. permit process for signs to make sure it's fire retardant and made of appropriate material. >> a safety issue? this is a cloth panel. it might blow off the building and get stuck on the fence. if you look around all the other buildings have been cleared. what happens? the sign comes off and blows into an empty lot somewhere? >> john: they could trip over it. [ laughter ] >> the law does not require the city to allow people the most convenient way to speak out and protest. >> what the supreme court says they have a right to protest when the government is doing. >> but big ugly sign on the building, neighbors eyes are strained. >> they can avert their eyes. a city sign can be legitimate if it prevents people from using signs that might harm traffic or

safety hazard or inhibit other people. >> john: how about beautification? >> it's in the eyes of the beholder. i don't think that should be legitimate grounds, but in this case the sign can't possibly present any problems. it's in the midst of a number of empty lots because the city has gone and knocked all the buildings down. so it's not like there is some aesthetic problem with having a sign on the side of the building. >> john: thank you steve simpson for the institute of justice. >> coming up, racism. we'll meet a woman who was fired after thousands of people called her a racist. [ applause ] [ creaking ]

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what did you write that made you a racist? >> i wrote something criticizing black studies. it's reaction to a piece that appeared there that cited new exciting research from northwestern. one that was mentioned was history of black history and explained had how the institutional racism was to blame. >> john: what is the history of black mid wiffery? >> i said it seemed obscure research. i criticized academic research so the second dissertation was explained how institutional racism is to blame for the housing crisis in america. >> john: it is a theory. i said perhaps the millions of white homeowners that experienced losing their homes were collateral damage in this whole racist plot.

third dissertation i criticized accused clarence thomas and thomas soul and john mcquarter three black conservatives of assault on civil rights on america because affirmative axle. >> john: but you wrote this black study dissertation, a collection of left wing victimization, so irrelevant no one will look at them. that is true of most dissertations. black studies seem to rest on the premise nothing much has changed in last half century. don't tell them about the black president. so what happens then? >> so on a sunday night. >> john: ironically on a blog called brainstorm? >> the comments start to pour in the next few days. this was not new.

i was writing for the chronicle for about a year and there was always obnoxious people that wrote in. by monday the chronicle asked me if i would respond. i'm a racist and i don't have a ph.d. but i didn't read the entire dissertations before writing the blog posts. of course i didn't read that before reading 500 word blog post. this is an absurd standard. 6500 people asked me to be fired from my gig at the chronicle. >> john: and you were? >> at first the reaction from the chronicle was they said we understand you are upset but we see this invitation to debate. that was the end of the week. then four days went by and then they fired me. >> john: so maybe you are a racist. it makes me wanted to ask your

relatives if you are a racist. your closest relative happens to be in the audience, your husband jason, could you join the table. is he is a racist. [ applause ] >> if is she is a racist. she has an odd choice in husbands? >> i would agree. >> john: you are a writer, editorial writer for the "wall street journal". what was your reaction to all this? >> naomi is no shrinking violet. she hats written two books on higher education. she has interviewed count letters professors and students and parents of students at dozens of colleges across the country. that is the experience that informed her blogs on higher education. she is perfectly capable of

debating anyone. >> john: so the chronicle is timid organization or what is your take? >> i think it's a combination of things. they have to answer to their bottom line and who is going to subscribe if they all hate the chronicle, but they are reflective the atmosphere of higher education, it's a closed bubble and if you say anything that distresses the academics they will is on the of spit you out. >> john: and race is touchy. blogger said she doesn't deserve a platform for her racism. this is racially motivated bullying? >> i have criticized a number of disciplines. i think what they are called ethnic studies are not legitimate. i think they are political causes. they are founded on the premise that racism or whatever you want to call it is to blame for the problems of whatever racial minorities you are talking about

and you start from that premise and then you can ask the question. academic discipline begin from the question they begin from the answer. >> john: jason you have had angry pushback from people. you are writing for a conservative publication, people that didn't know you are black? >> yes, it's not an uncommon experience. i've written pieces in the newspaper over the years about resorting to racism as an all purpose explanation of all that is wrong with black america as not being something that jiefs with the facts. i've gotten letters to the editor that say things, i guess mr. riley has never been a young black man in new york trying to catch a cab at night. [ applause ] >> we are ran that letter in the paper and my mother got quite a kick out of it. >> john: does race matter when you are talking about race. outside the studio people told

us it absolutely does matter. >> one person can say something and it can mean something differently because of their race. >> if a white person says something against me there is a major problem. >> i think that is definitely the public per, whether you like it or not. we can laugh and i can have a defense, obviously laughs when they find out my husband is black but you are protected you can't call me a racist because i have a black husband and couple interracial children here. bottom line it shouldn't matter. you should be able to engage in legitimate discourse about the facts and critique academic disciplines without people resorting to engaging in personal attacks. [ applause ] >> and i also think about the message that her critics are

sending to these young black academics is there is no legitimate criticism to their discipline and anybody that thinks otherwise is a racist. >> john: stay with us, the audience will have some questions for you. also, i will talk about those because my ideas are hateful and because my ideas are hateful and backwards. [ male announcer ] this is the at&t network... a living breathing intelligence

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morning, boys. , i'm working on a cistern intake valve, and the guy hands me a locknut wrench. no way! i'm like, what is this, a drainpipe slipknot? wherever your business takes you, nobody keeps you on the road like progressive commercial auto. [ flo speaking japanese ] [ shouting in japanese ] we work wherever you work. now, that's progressive. call or click today. >> plus, a applause >> plus, a applause. >> we're back with your questions and comments from my guests. lawyer steve simpson. naomi riley fired by the chronicle of higher education indication and her husband. first from my facebook page. what is losing your job with a private company have to do with freedom of speech? >> well this is not a first

amendment issue from my perspective. >> john: it has nothing to do with first amendment. >> i was hired to provide a conservative perspective. once the heat was turned up, it seems obvious they couldn't take it. it's more about intolerance. >> john: i'll get to more of that difference in a minute. another from rob, they can dictate what they can say on the airwaves. government says we can't yell fire in a theater. religion says we can't take god's name in vain. >> we shouldn't allow anybody to infringe our free speech but the spoupt has allowed the government, supreme court that broadcast is limited and not get enough views out there. cable tv has given the way for that and internet included.

so the government should not be able to determine who gets to speak on the airwaves and what they say. [ applause ] >> john: you are okay with the rule that members of audience can't yell fire. that might incite injury. >> absolutely. >> some rules are okay. people are prevented from harming other people with right to exercise right to free speech but if they don't harm other people and certainly broadcasting on the airwaves does not, it shouldn't be regulated. >> if we have censorship in academic journals, at what people will learn to fight back if we don't give them practice in school? >> they don't anymore of them get personally offend and sue in my experience. it's a good question. we could use more real debate in

school and more sense there are legitimate arguments that need to be had and not every answer i feel this or i feel that. >> john: i feel our next questioner. >> there has been a lot of debate where the united states falls on educating our students compared to the rest of the world. right now we're ranked 23rd in the world. >> john: out of something 40 industrialized countries. >> what does it say when we can't even debate what students are learning or discussing if we can't debate that and merit of it when we are ranked 23rd. >> we are ranked first in self-esteem. [ laughter ] >> american children rank first in self-esteem. >> i do think that serious debating is a lot of art on a lot of campuses.

you occasionally diverge end perspectives but it's all about protests. it's not about having a rational conversation. i feel this or calling the other person a name. >> in some circles it's pretty easy to win a conversation by calling the other person a race effort. that is it. end of story but really that is just intellectual boring. having said that there is racist but how do you know the difference between political correctness gone array and racist speech? >> well, you are right. just because i don't think my wife is a racist doesn't mean i think there is no such thing as racism and that racism has been eliminated from our society, but you are right. its war that word that is used so overused it's hard to tell when to take the charge

seriously which is a shame because sometimes it does apply. >> hi, my name is ryan. i'm 18 years old. my comment was on your book. i'm dyslexic and your book was the first book i read cover on cover? >> i found it most interesting over any other topic. >> john: i would say you are brilliant. [ laughter ] [ applause ] >> john: did you learn anything? >> absolutely. >> john: thank you for saying that. thank you all. when we come back, i'll tell you what i said that was so repugnant that some people demand that fox fire me. managing my diabetes is part of my life,

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>>. >> john: i'm guilty of bad speech. my ideas are backwards and hateful. this group takes credit for getting pat buchanan fired. it's time fox dropped stossel and go after the network with a public campaign anything like we've pursued to date. then they chimed in, fox legitimizes indefensible position. i'll explain in a moment. but i noticed that everyone support free speech. >> i should be able to say

whatever i want. >> i don't think anything should be illegal. >> everyone should have their own right to say what they want. >> instead ask what should be done about hateful speech or sexist speech, then many people want the speeshlg punished. >> depending on what they say. >> like performing a crime they should treat it. >> john: what was my crime? it was an opinion. i said i thought part of the civil rights act violates american's right to association. most of the civil rights act is banning discrimination by government. that is good, but i think the parts that ban private discrimination went too far. so i said this. >> private businesses ought to discriminate. i won't go to a place that is racist and i'll speak against them, but it should be their right to be racist. >> for that they demand i be

fired, but think about it, i condemned racism. i said i would boycott a racist business, but my heresay was to agree with rand paul when he said on a show, part of the civil rights act went too far. then it does go too far. a black student association and the korean grocer's association should have right to exclude non-blacks or non-koreans. government must not discriminate but private individuals should be able to associate with whom they choose. activists hot left demand that i be fired. they don't want such ideas even heard. i supposed i should be grateful they don't want me killed. some places, that is the norm as we heard tonight. >> if you speak out against

islam you will be marked for death. >> john: i'm glad i live in the west where people express their opposition in more peaceful way. even throwing pies, that is one how they protest speech. bill gates was pied and so was bill kristol and ralph nader, ann coulter ducked. so when they pied milton friedman, he was 86 years old. they throw glitter bombs, buckets of shiny glitter. here they got newt. rick santorum handled it well. the ghrit ser annoying, hard to get out of your hair and clothing, better than shooting people. despite my complaints about stupid restrictions on speech, free speech is for the most part alive and well. so what if pat buchanan or naomi or i get fired.

we work for private companies. i reveal that my bosses at abc would not let me do stories on certain topics. that made me angry, it made me move to fox, but much as i resent the narrow mindedness of abc bosses i can't complain i was censored. when they refuse to air something that is not censorship, that is editorial control. it's their job to say yes or no. if i wanted to say things that abc did not like, i could go elsewhere and eventually i did. america has plenty of media companies. if i get fired here i'll get a job elsewhere. we have choices, but we have only one government, no real choice there. that, it's important that government, not sensor, if disz not censor, boycotted me, but don't bring in government to settle the issue. that is our show and thanks for

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