from the supreme court decision is expected any die now. >> john: what will they say about obamacare and what happens next? >> learn more at health care. >> john: do you know you already pay for obamacare to promote itself. >> with no co-pays or out of pocket funds. >> john: benefits, free stuff, what if we pay for food the way we pay for health care. i would buy steak after steak. only the best most expensive stuff for me. my insurance company is paying. >> this will shock you, but nothing is free. >> everything is paid for by somebody. who should pay for your health

care? >> john: that is our show tonight. [ applause ] >> john: the supreme court is going to rule on monday or next nurse whether obamacare is unconstitutional or just the mandate is unconstitutional or something. what will happen? fox news legal analyst liswiehl follows it? >> next monday, yes, 25th, it's sort of last month for the session for the supreme court and old western image, they have the decision and get out before they ask too many questions. >> john: as far as what we know about the justice thinking, we know what we heard from the beginning. >> john, six hours of arguments.

i covered it for fox radio every minute. what it came down to. what they were crunched on in the middle two hours was the idea of the mandate. can insurance private insurance be mandated in this country. >> john: scalia asked if government can force people to buy health insurance can they force you to buy broccoli? >> that is a slippery slope argument. if you can be mandated to buy this private insurance, into the government insurance, a private insurance by the government, then what is the next things the government can force you to do? >> john: i have to pay taxes and drive a car, car insurance? >> that is a privilege. with a car that is a privilege. you are driving on the state roads. the federal highways that tax dollars are paying for. you are going out in commerce because you want to be in commerce, you want the privilege

of getting from point "a" to point "b" in your car. then they say you have to have insurance. the government is saying, you must have this even if you don't want it. even if you decided as an individual, i really don't want that insurance. i'm going to take my chances on it. >> john: scalia was making joking reference to the complication of the bill, what happened to cruel and unusual punishment. you really want to go through 2700 pages? >> it would have been nice for congress to have gone through it but our clerks will 6 to. >> john: president said the supreme court said they are confident of not taking an unprecedented step to overturn a law that was passed by deck kli elected congress? >> maybe unprecedented, absolutely not. the supreme court -- that is why

we have the checks and balances. if congress passes what they deem to be an unconstitutional law, that is what they are there to do, to say it's unconstitutional. if they don't do that, what are they doing? what is their job then? >> john: instead of saying constitutional or not, they may say part of it, mandate is unconstitutional but the rest can stay? >> the issue there is going to be practicality. they say the mandate dies, the rest of it lives. i think then the whole bill does die because the funding for the bill comes through that mandate. how are you going to have funding to pay for the pill about if you don't have the mandated. if you can't force people to buy insurance or be taxed for it? >> john: maybe they will borrow more money. we don't know. the mandate will be repealed but now they indicate an 80% chance the mandate will be struck down?

>> i listened to those six hours and i'm not a betting person but if you took me to vegas, which would be nice if you want to ask i bet the mandated will be shut down. >> john: thank you lis. regardless of whether obamacare is constitutional, is it good for people? the group doctors for america says yes that government should do more to provide healthcare for people. john goodman says government should do less. he heads policy analysis and specialized in healthcare why should government do less? >> we have a bureaucratic inefficient system. when government nationalizes it it will be more bureaucratic. only way out of our approximate is free the doctors and patients to solve their own problems. we're not going to solve them from washington.

>> john: you released a new book called price-less, nobody knows what is going to cost? >> nobody sees a real price, no patient or no doctor, poor people with food stamps, they pay the same price they never have a problem with access. in healthcare, they have a huge problem with access. >> john: did sharma, you appeared in an event promoting obamacare, you say it's great? >> i believe it's a great step forward in our healthcare and for our country for us to be able to have better health for everybody in america. the bottom line is that america healthcare is failing and this a great step forward in being able to make it into a patient centered way of taking care of people. >> john: sounds good. patient centered. she has a group of doctors, ten

doctors who agree with her on this and we'll be hearing from you later. here is great irony, for the most vulnerable populations they will have less access to care. what the bill does expand the demand for care. you and me and all the seniors are going to have more generous insurance than we had before. huge increase in demand, no change in supply. if you are in a plan that pays below market, like seniors and poor people on medicaid or medicare they are going to have a real problem find ago doctor who will see them. >> so actually i disagree with you. i'm an everyday doctor taking care of everyday people. the notion there is going to be more distribution to take care of more people and in the affordable care act is to let that happen is a good thing. >> john: government is not good

at running things. they couldn't run steel mills. why would it do better? >> the government gives a protection. it gives our cops and firefighters. >> john: but that is local government. >> but the whole notion of being able to say, you are starting on the factor that you are saying health is a commodity. i start saying that health is a right. >> john: healthcare is right. >> there is nothing in this legislation that gives anybody a right to any particular healthcare. >> it does not give you a right to heart surgery or to wait in line to wait for a c.a.t. scan, that doesn't mean you have a right for a scan. in massachusetts which the model more people are going through it boston cab driver said she had to go down a-l of 20 doctors before she could find one before she could see her.

she said this is the list the government gave me. we are moving money around. people are not getting more care. >> i disagree with you. you are nice gentleman and i feel like and no disrespect. you are a numbers person. i'm an everyday doctor. the fact of the matter, massachusetts, 98% is covered. this is expanding care and closing the gap. 50 million people are uninsured. affordable care act is 32 million people be able to get some quality insurance. >> john: majority of americans are on your side. poll numbers, 72% of americans supported subsidies for the poor to buy health insurance. >> i support a reasonable government policy to help poor people. >> excuse me. i don't think it's about poor people. this is about everyday people.

>> john: let me go down the list. it's all on your side. 63%, most people agree with you doesn't mean you are right. [ applause ] >> john: back to the poll, 63% supported government setting minimum standards for healthcare plan. >> these are not minimum standards, they are going to tell you where you are going to get it and what you are going to pay for it. >> frankly, i don't think insurance companies should be in the game. health is not a corporation. >> john: you want what canada has. >> if you look at the evidence that shows responsibility that everybody pitches in. the bottom line. >> john: everybody pitches in, that sounds nice. >> everybody doesn't get the same care. uninsured people in the united states get as much or more

preventative care than insured people in canada. think about that. >> that is not true. there is a lot of controversy over. [ talking over each other ] >> john: 61% support banning discrimination for preexisting conditions. >> yes, absolutely. >> john: doctors are applauding. >> i'm, you buy life insurance you get cancer and you die and your family gets money. i'm not for allowing people as this bill will do to wait until they get sick and then you buy the insurance, get your care and drop the insurance. why should i buy insurance until i get sick? >> the fact of the matter the whole idea is to refocus on preventative care. let's talk about preexisting conditions very clearly here. so what are preexisting conditions. insurance companies were allowed

to say, you have an allergy you have a preexisting condition. i got a hit by a car that is a preexisting condition. that doesn't seem fair. >> it seems like every state to buy insurance for you own, why don't we change that law? we solved 98% of all these problems. >> john: you'll have a chance to answer audience questions later. coming up, a small business owner says he won't hire people because of obamacare. next, how government healthcare turns us into dogs and cats. [ applause ] it's time to get going. to have the energy to keep up with your kids. to step up to a new challenge. it's time to start gellin' with dr. scholl's and feel the energy from your feet up.

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obamacare we'll be stuck with lots of government healthcare. medicare and medicaid pay 35% of america's healthcare costs. on top of that government's rules encourage most of us get health insurance through our employer. we expect someone else to pay for most of our healthcare. what is the result? surgeon jeffrey singer says it's changing the ethics of doctors from the hippo cratic oath to a veteran near mindset. what do you mean? >> well, as you know, when you take your pet to the veterinarian, they tell you what is wrong with the pet. then it gives you a set of options as the owner and goes with whatever you decide. anything from expensive surgery or therapy to possibly euthanasia. >> my profession we call it hippo cratic ethic my number one

obligation is to the patient. i am not concerned about the person's ability to pay the bill but i will give they will the best advice as i see it. what has been happening, going back at least ten years, doctors have been pressured by the number one payer in this country which is medicare through agency cmf to practice increasingly according to guidelines and protocols that are designed by panels that medicare puts together. >> john: so this is a problem long before obamacare? >> oh, yeah. >> john: government is spending more and more. >> i was once asked by a are group how obamacare is going to damage the patient-doctor relationship and i said to they will, i hate to disappoint i know you wanted me to dash on obamacare but it started years

ago through medicare. over the past seven or eight years, they have been putting together panels that ask the following question. if i have ten million people and x amount of dollars what is the most cost-effective way to allocate resources. >> john: so you could call them death panels. that is the term they throughout in debate. it's not exactly like that, but when there is a limited supply, there will be rationing and some people won't get the stuff that won't keep them alive? >> when obamacare takes effect, obamacare it will be a death panel. it's independent payment advisory board which effective in 2014 which basically determine what care will be given and what won't. >> john: they won't say you are going to die. you are too old and you don't get a new heart?

>> exactly. but the point is, they are controlling the allocation of the resources. >> john: what is the alternative? >> the alternative is for people to be more control of their own healthcare spending. >> john: i get to be my own death panel. i get to decide. >> that is what you do when you buy food or decide what kind of house you want to live in. you always make decisions every day regarding your resources. if you are using someone else's resources, it's only natural that other person wants to make the call. >> john: you are a surgeon and you see it with your patients, the medicare family wants hundred percent of all treatment and it's free so they say, give it to them? >> it's only natural. i don't want to say everybody but many times i'm a surgeon and i deal with critically ill patients, some of whom have

difficult situations. since you are not involved in any of the costs of this thing, it's easy for some people, do everything, do everything. this way they avoid having to make a difficult decision. of course, they are not paying for it. it's easier to do that. >> john: real life is about tradeoffs but insurance and medicare and medicaid and obamacare isolate people from making their own decisions what they want. >> that is correct. because with obamacare we're going to have more of a situation where the individual is paying less and less directly for their own healthcare costs. >> john: people like that. i wanted it free from the government? >> what is happening all of my peers are gradual being forced, pressured to practice according to guidelines that have the interests of the payer put first. when your doctor gives you advice you won't be confident that it's not advice based on

what she or he considers the best advice for i, but your doctor may be following orders. what i'm worried about what is happening to my profession. does it veterinary ethic rather than a hipocratic ethic? >> john: coming up who pays this. employers pay on obamacare. also, praise for discrimination. also, praise for discrimination. [ applause ] when i found out y irregular heartbeat put me at 5 times greater risk of a stroke, my first thoughts were about my wife, and my family. i have the most common type of atrial fibrillation,r afib. it's not caused by a heart valve problem. i was taking warfarin, but my doctor put me on pradaxa instead to reduce my risk of stroke. in a clinical trial, pradaxa® (dabigatran etexilate mesylate) reduced stroke risk 35% better than warfarin. and unlike warfarin, with pradaxa, there's no need for regular blood tests. that's really important to me. pradaxa can cause serious, sometimes fatal, bleeding.

don't take pradaxa if you have abnormal bleeding and seek immediate medical care for unexpected signs of bleeding, like unusual bruising. pradaxa may increase your bleeding risk if you're 75 or older, have a bleeding condition like stomach ulcers, or take aspirin, nsaids, or blood thinners, or if you have kidney problems, especially if you take tell your doctor about all dicines you take, any planned medical or dental procedures, and don't stop taking pradaxa without your doctor's approval, as stopping may increase your stroke risk.ures, other side effects include indigestion, stomach pain, upset, or burning. pradaxa is progress. having afib not caused by a heart valve problem increases your risk of stroke. ask your doctor if you can reduce your risk with pradaxa.

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>>. >> john: one big reason politicians said we need obamacare was to rein in health care costs, they are up 400 am, more than double the rate of inflation. my next guest says we measure

the wrong thing. he runs an investment fund from one billion to 50 billion and he is pretty good with numbers. how can you say the cost of health care hasn't soared? >> the amount we pay has gone up but it's the cost of same thing through time. what would you spend from 1950s health care? i don't think you would spend very much. if it were, i don't it would cost that much. >> john: it's not as good. >> how much would you spend for a medieval barber to bleed you? the new drugs and procedures have gone way up. this is real important. that is a good thing, not a bad thing. imagine some company comes along and invents a cure for cancer. costs double and all the other cancer treatments, costs dakota. we're going to spend more on

healthcare. is there someone who is going to argue that is a bad thing? it's the wrong way to frame the problem. >> john: doesn't obamacare do some good things? it gives more people insurance. some people have gone bankrupt paying for healthcare? >> let's start with that. the coverage issue. there are a lotto of things and i hope we get to talk about, that are healthcare system it's freer than much of the world's. >> john: it's not a free market healthcare system. >> it's extremely infiltrated by the government when it comes to medicare and medicaid. >> john: government pays half the bills. >> actually i'll say it now. the fact that our system is half free, we do things a lot better than systems that are completely not free. we are the place in the world if you have something that is very bad, you come. when it comes to treating difficult we're the place to go. we have problems on cost and we

have a problem with coverage. there are people in this country that are not covered. two biggest reasons are the very poor and people with now famous preexisting conditions that make it prohibitive. >> john: we need obamacare. >> this will shock you, no, we don't. we need to have a national debate on how much we want to help these people. that is a fair debate to have. >> john: but. >> obamacare says let's not not debate on how much we spend on people. we're going to take people with preexisting conditions and we're going to force insurance companies to provide them coverage. then what we're going to do we'll go bankrupt if we do that -- we're going to literally coerce everyone to buy that company's product. that is crazy way efficiency wise to cover people and it's a dishonest way. >> john: but it won't raise taxes, we're going to make those

evil insurance companies do what they should have done in the first place. >> it is raising your taxes. a lot of times regulation and law is a sneaky way to grow government. raising taxes to spend more money is what everyone means by growing government. but raising the cost of something, insurance companies will not pay this. we will all pay this. we will all pay this through higher bills. >> john: so it's a deceitful way to hide tax increase? >> yes. there is an honest way to argue for it. >> john: is it a trick? >> it's a complete trick. there is only one economic purpose for insurance company, it's assessing risk. insurance companies existed to say, john is trim and good shape and i should lose 30 pounds. >> john: what is weird, if they repeal the mandate, part of republicans wanted to keep, that

bill o'reilly wants to keep don't discriminate against people with preexisting conditions? >> republicans are wrong. >> john: because discrimination is good part of insurance? >> republicans have a part of a disease. it will sound really mean if you are against, we love that one. they are just wrong. >> john: explain they are wrongsome. some of them did nothing wrong? >> most of them, most people with preexisting conditions didn't do anything wrong. i personally like to help those people. if we have an honest debate how to help these people, the country to decide to help them a lot. the way obamacare does it by making an insurance company pretend it doesn't exist, those two things, it hides the costs but mostly it takes away the only thing the insurance company does for the world which tells

me john should pay less if we both could afford it. go back to fire insurance. you had one house that is old timbers with oil rags in basement. you have another built up to every modern code. nobody in the right mind would say they should pay the same amount in insurance. in preexisting conditions, it's sadder case. it's not the people's fault. >> john: some people are obese, some people smoke. >> are you looking at me? the moral argument gets murkier. >> john: insurance company for rewarding the person that exercises? >> there is no reward for it. let's go back to another thing that is popular in obamacare. keeping parents on their insurance until they are 26

instead of 21. in a free market there should be two policies, one until you are 26 and one until you are 21. cheaper one until you are 21 if we decide again we need to be charitable to people, we should be it honestly. this is forcing all the costs to everyone, everyone has to pay until they are 26 to help the few who want it. then that cost is hidden. that is big government being run through obamacare's regulation. >> john: the illusion if we force you to cover it until the kid is 26, if we force you to cover the preexisting conditions it's free and it's a good thing. government gives you? >> this will shock you, john, but nothing is free. everything in the world is paid by somebody. most of it is paid by the middle-class in america. politicians like to do nice wonderful things with other

people's money. nothing is free. >> john: thank you. more on obamacare when we come back. people like options. when you take geico, you can call them anytime you feel like saving money. it don't matter, day or night. use your computer, your smartphone, your tablet, whatever. the point is, you have options. oh, how convenient. hey. crab cakes, what are you looking at? geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance.

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>>. [ applause ] >> john: more people are unset than most is small business owners, they found that 72% say obamacare makes it much harder

for my business to hire more employees. that is creepy thought. because we want small businesses to hire more people. small businesses is america's biggest job creators. karen with the national fad raise of independent businesses and joe olevo employs 48 people and has a printing business in new jersey. you say because of obamacare you won't hire more people, why not? >> i'm going to do all i can. the cost of mandates, the unknown costs are so potentially cost prohibitive. from a small business point of view, when i take a loan and expand by business i put my personal assets on the line. >> john: one point that people miss you have 48 employees. if you have 50, the rules change. >> they change significantly. i can get fined if i don't get insurance for my employers, i can get fined if i don't get the

right type of insurance. i can get fined if i insure them but standard poverty line and i still get fined. it's such an unknown, i don't know what the costs are going to be. >> john: i would think when these are rules, what do you hear from your members? a lot of businesses may have 48, 49 people and say i don't want to grow? >> that is exactly right. the healthcare law is adding to the uncertainty in this economy today. people don't know how much it will cost for them for health insurance or their business. yes, it is causing our members to stay on the sidelines. >> john: the rules sound good for people. cover everybody until age 26. cover people with preexisting conditions, people like that but it means some companies have gotten out of the big. humana and signet got out of the business. one stopped offering health insurance altogether.

we have fewer choices. when you say cover more stuff, you get fewer choices? >> that is exactly right. they are going to ultimately get more expensive because it's not just about having health insurance, you have to have all of these --. >> john: to cover and mandate? >> substance and abuse treatment. some people are going to decide not have to children yet their policy will have to have pediatric services covered. there are something you have to pay for each of those mandates that are in the law. >> john: mandates confuses people because we talk about the obamacare mandate means that you have to buy it. there were mandates in every state. chiropractors lobbied the legislature in new york and you have to offer that and contra september activities but in new york there are 26 mandates, average claim costs $4,000. in alabama there is nine mandates, it costs $1600.

why don't you move to alabama. >> my business is in new jersey, heaviest mandated stated in the nation. oakland goes one up. we have had a high deductible plan that allows them to keep premiums low and be response for the first dollar of their care. i have seen how employees have more rational choices because of it. that is going to do with it. >> john: by having high deductible, they make more rational choices why? >> because they are responsible for the first "x" amount of dollars. before rushing off to a doctor, they will think about it or take better care of themselves. i have seen it where employees have made better lifestyle choices because it behooves them to do so. >> john: why don't you buy insurance from a company in other state? >> can't do that, unfortunately. >> john: why is this accepted. i can buy wine from another

state or computers. >> i also understand you can buy life insurance from another state. this is a common sense solution that would immediately, we think start driving down costs. at the end of the day the reason that so many people don't have health insurance because they can't afford it. what we really needed is something that will drive down the cost of insurance. that will allow more people to be covered by it. >> john: last point with you, when you have 48 employees, obamacare said 50 employees but there are all these other laws that kick in 20 employees, 25, at hundred employees you can't close a planted without two months' notice. you are saying, stay small? >> we've done it ourselves. we don't know the costs. we're standing back and you have 20 million small businesses, do you the math.

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and get high quality care. what is illegal having them pay for care. it has to be free they will go to the more expensive place, they waste their money and all of our money. >> is employers involved altogether and let us have our own control of health insurance? >> i think this was a policy that was set back, as i understand, during the '30s and '40s when employers were disincentivised. >> they said let's give them health insurance? >> right. what we would like to see is what you are alluding to, everybody have pre-tax dollars to have portable coverage and take that with them and employers can pay your salaries exactly how much money you are

making and make your own choices with that money instead of being told that "x" amount needs to go into health insurance. >> i think you are right we should have transparency in what the costs are. to answer the other gentleman's question on facebook, let's be clear that catastrophic care is not preventative care. >> john: what if you want to pay for your own preventative care? >> the whole notion your own healthcare. it should be about preventative care. >> john: let's hear about doctors for america group. your oh opponents are doctors against america? it sounds weird to me. >> i'm a primary care doctor, and i like the idea of prices being more transparent. i am concerned of using the power of markets to keep people a disincentive to give primary care early.

>> john: what about that, they don't want to pay for it? >> we found when patients are managing their own money, they do get preventative care. in the medicaid program they can manage their own dollars and do it quite well. why not let them manage the money that pays for that care. >> i'm a doctor in new york. i would like to know why the affordable care act is being called obamacare here but also around the country. everyone knows that the healthcare system in america is broken and has been broken for decades. i would like to know when the health of americans is not going to be at the mercy of the political system and politicians >> john: wait a second. you are asking it to be at the mercy of the political system because you support obamacare. [ applause ] >> john: i call it obamacare because the politicians, affordable care act.

everybody be happy act. >> it's a good question in this sense. we didn't get what barack obama wanted. we got a program put together by special interests and nobody can understand or explain because special interest legislation. >> john: yes, sir. >> i'm a physician in new york. each of you know much about the v.a. health system? >> yes, it's a system run by the government. it does certain things pretty well. especially things it grades itself on and electronic medical records and but other things are very poorly which is why you see those newspaper articles, about vets that have psychological problems and doctors that won't see them. it's inefficient and not market based. >> the system doesn't meet their needs because there are not enough psychiatrist. it's an efficient healthcare

system and covers very hard working men and women. the fact of the matter. v.a. system for all of america, that would be something everybody would want to pitch in to. >> john: we're out of time. thank you. dr. sharma, john, karen, coming up, i'll solve america's healthcare p emily's just starting out... and on a budget. like a ramen noodle- every-night budget. she thought allstate car insurance was out of her reach. until she heard about the value plan. see how much you could save with allstate. are you in good hands?

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>>. >> john: soon, probably monday, the supreme court will announce their decision. they will declare the mandate you have to buy insurance constitutional. the odds are 80 to 20 that the mandate will be overturned.

but i wanted the whole law thrown out. this isn't an assault on our money and our freedom. because of it's micromanagement alone and 2400 pages of complications. nancy pelosi was right when she said obamacare will be very excited. >> but we have to pass the bill so you can find out what is in it. >> john: right. but even now more than two years after this thing passed, we still don't know what it means. it says in here that bureaucrats will write new rules as they go along. worst part of obamacare is the part that is most popular, one that is likely to survive even if the supremes would check mandate. it requires insurance company to stop discriminating, forces them to cover everyone xhug including those with preexisting conditions. that sounds fair. nobody likes discrimination, but

discrimination is what makes insurance work. banning it is like telling car insurance companies they must cover lindsay lohan the same price they cover you. car insurance works because they can reward good drivers and charge lindsey more. forcing them to stop discriminating kills the business model. forced insurance isn't insurance. it's welfare. if obama is planning a government welfare program he ought to say that. the promoters of big government don't own up to anything. listening to them, obamacare is free healthcare. >> do you know what your health insurance may have preventative with no co-pays. >> so far they have spent $18 million telling us they are giving us free stuff. >> today a mom will see a doctor, a dad will get a screening, a little one will get

a vaccine. learn more at health care.gov. >> it sounds like they are pushers but what will it do to costs? making it seem free, those screenings must be paid by someone. insurance companies pay the cost is just hidden. imagine if we bought food that way. you could buy grocery insurance. i would go filets for $28 a pound. why buy cheaper cuts? that is what we've got with healthcare. obamacare would make that worse. the solution is to face facts and say, we need a market. that means we need to pay more of our own healthcare costs ourselves. it does happen in america, in illinois in a city they line up to see russell donor, he takes cash, five dollars a visit.

he says that is all he needs. he is an extreme case but other doctors are starting to work for cash. patients buy insurance for big bills but patient controls payments for routine care. this cuts costs a lot by as much as 50% according to simple care, network of fee for service doctors. look at the tiny pockets of american medicine where insurance does not pay like plastic surgery, what happens there? surgeons compete. the result quality has risen and cost of plastic surgery has dropped 20% over the past 20 years. wouldn't it be great for all of health care. it could be, but only if we look to the free market not government. of course, that means consumers will have to spend more of their own money. good luck finding a politician to say that but that is the medicine we need. that is our show. we'll have a new show next week,

thursday, 9:00 p.m. on the fox business network. thanks for watching. [ applause ] having an irregular heartbeat called atrial fibrillation puts you at 5 times greater risk of stroke. don't wait. go to afibstroke.com for a free discussion guide to help you talk to your doctor about reducing your risk. that's afibstroke.com.

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