killed the first job. that's our show tonight. >> tonight the studio audience is filled s with relatively young people mainly because most are interns. some work at fox and some work elsewhere. interns have become increasingly common in america and half of the college students do some kind of internship. it is a way for young people to build a resume. it is a way for companies to try workers out and for companies to get some work done cheap which raises the

question, how many interns are paid? and i am talking real wages and not $10 a day or something like that.ll how many of you get paid? aren't you getting ripped off by these companies, exploited?th do you think you are? the obama labor department says they are exploited. not long ago they had a fact sheet that said free internships are legal as the employer derives no immediate advantage from the intern what? why would the employer want an intern? it is better for the business if the operations may actually be impeded by the intern. are you kidding me? what is the point of that. i had an intern and we agreed to part company. interns are great. it was some of my best

research. some went on to be journalists. it is about time the labor department started punishing companies that had unpaid interns. he said the big squeeze, tough times for the american worker. hannah jackman helped students find internships, and she says they are great paid or not. but steven you say most internships cause problems. what do you mean? >> i have written articles and experts say that many internships cause problems and the labor department going back decades has rules, criteria for when -- >> but they have never been enforced. >> oat bough ma administration is not -- the obama administration is not enforcing them either. >> i was wondering why no one raised their happened. they say how dare you break

the lawam by not paying you? it cannot be as you said for the immediate benefit of the employer. >> why not? aside from what the lawyers have worked out as a reporter, what is wrong with benefiting -- it is win-win. >> it is win-win in many ways, but wthere are people who would would -- with unemployment so high, many people are saying it would be great if employers in assisted of taking on all of these smart young people without paying them -- >> they would hire people and pay them if not for unpaid internships and it replaces paying work? >> i wrote a story a few weeks ago, john, where i interviewed interviewed -- workplace correspondence. it was a good college and -- it was a good college in new york and she was looking for a job in the fashion industry and got a job with one of the most famous houses. she worked from 9:00 a.m. to

9:00 p.m. sometimes theyon wanted her to workweek ends. she wasn't paid at all. she said a w lot of the times she twiddled her thumbs. she went out and got lunch for people. >> she had a lousy time. she can quit. >> that is true. we believe that company should follow the rules. they should not break the law. >> change the rules. people and company should lobby the labor department to change the rules. >> you help students find intin intin -- find internships. >> absolutely. we place them in washington, d.c. i can't say enough. the advantages and the importance of doing these kinds of internships, paid or unpaid, they are incredible opportunities and they are learning what they want to do with their lives. they are opportunities for networking.

opportunities for learning to be a grown up, young professional. >> great for the students, but he says it is hurting the paid workers.s >> i don't see how that is possible. a lot of interns do the work, not what a full time employee would do, but it is not as if they are in there in lieu of the full time employee. >> steve, i recently interviewed one billionaire. he has created lots of jobs. he is upset about the labor department. mark cuban who owns the dallas mavericks says he can't believe he is able to give unpaid work to college students. >> i get e-mails every day, five, 10, 20 or more sometimes and it would be my dream job to work in any capacity unpaid. as a matter of fact, i will pay you to let me work for you. so i went to our human resources a few years ago and i said i have projects i can put them to work for.

it is absolutely ridiculous. >> i agree. these are kids who might have invented something cool and they don't gette the opportunity. if mr. cuban could have sense to pay his interns, they could be as creative and inventive and go on to exercise great things. >> he chooses not to pay people. these kids want to work for nothing for the experiencean. >> but it favors wealthier kids with connections. if your family -- i look at this audience and they look prosperous to me. if your family makes $500,000 a year, maybe they can afford to have their son or daughter work in new york city in an unpaid internship and pay $1500 rent. >>15 there are certainly students whose parents are willing to support them as they go to another city and do an unpaid internship.

however, there are also kids like me who work to put themselves through college.li they put away money while they were in college and put them into an opportunity to do an unpaid internship. to say because some students have the advantage of parental support that we should not allow any interns to have the opportunities at all i think it robbing young people of an unit too -- of an opportunity to follow their dreams and careers. >> a lot of my interns said, boy, i amam learning more working for you than i learned in college. and i don't have to pay you anything. let me ask you. how many learned more in your internship than you did in college? it doesn't say much for college, but it sounds like an internship is a great dealnt. >> i am not denying that it can d be educational. we are a law abiding society

and we need to follow the rules set forth by government. it says in the s labor department rules if the interns aicre engaged in the operations of the employer and performing productive work. for example filing and performing other clir cal work. clerical work. assisting customers. the fact they may be receiving some benefits in the form of a new skill or improved work habit will not exclude them from the requirement it be paid. one might say the laws have been said before. >> i am not sure what that law said like most laws. >> we should have a right of contract. you are the workplace correspondent and the new york times loves more laws and less freedom. >> we love freedom of speech. we are big believers. not freedom of contract in the workplace. >> they had a contract with their employers. >> the supreme court of the

united states chosen by a duly elected president set for the these rules and they are changed by the labor department, and those are the rules we are supposed to follow. so we are all law breakers here and i am guilty too. i have employed lots of interns. thank you, steven greenhouse and hannah jackman. next, we tell you about teenagers in high school who were landing high paying first jobs. how is that possible? plus stories about first jobs, here is bill o'reilly. >> my first job at 16 was looking at a carvel ice cream stand. it taught me to show up on time. first rule when you get a job, show up on time. carvel, great, i got minimum wage, but all of the hot fudge sundays i wanted. good job. i wish i still had it. >> so he started at carvel. other fox personalities got their start as a bus

conductor, a garbage man. their story is coming up.

today there are no jobs. that's what i hear, but wait. one website found almost five million job openings. in june job openings rose another 200,000. so what is going on? america hass unusually high unemployment at the moment, but companies struggled to find workers. fox business reporter sandra smith looked into that. what did you find out? >> we went to a company called air products where they on hand had over 600 job openings. we went to a small town and found jobs. it is noto altogether

unreasonable to say that there are jobs out there. they going unfulfilled for long periods of. time. and in many jobs you don't have to have a c college education. most you don't need a college education. a lot we talked to, young men simply had high school degrees. >> you did this report, let's play a clip. >> there are no jobs in america. what if i told you that in that building right there high paying jobs sit vacant for sometimes up to a year. are you actively recruiting? >> you can start at 20 or more dollars an hour. >> but most of the college grads don't have the skills he seeks. >> politicians in washington love to push the importance of higher education. >>y higher education is not a luxury. >> but for many skilled workers therery is another path to the american dream. >> vocational school. the kids who attend lehigh

institute they get jobs. >> i am 16 and getting paid more than my friends. >> sold my old car and got a new one with the money i had made. >> w he learned technical skills in high school. >> you had many job offers. >> so you didn't go to college? >> i didn't want to go to college really. >> i have a brother who got out of college with a master's degree. he is having trouble finding a job. >> so the guy with the master's degree can't find a job, but the tech student gets it. >> it brings a smile to my face looking at the guys i interview because they are proud of what they do. they said college wasn't for them. their families couldn't afford college. >> this is not cool in america. vocational school isn't glamorous. president obama wants more money for liberal arts colleges and even paw posed --

and even proposed cutting -- he wanted to cut for vocationals. >> it is more important to buy a new car than sit at home and not do that. i wholeheartedly agree that there is a major push from washingtone . go to college. go to a four-year university. take out the student loans if you have to.ke but why aren't we saying there is another route? in fact, the ceo of that company that i went out to visit in pennsylvania, and he was a vocational school kid. he has risen to the top of the company. he did attend college. he ended up going back and getting a higher education. he makes over $10 million a year. >> theoo department of labor says they predict job openings for the future. they assume maybe 14% employment growth overall, but electricians, they say, 23%. plumbers and pipe fitters,

26%. refrigeration mechanics 34%. this is where the jobs are. >> in this case some of the jobs are open over a year, we were told. so vocational school graduates, there is work out there. and for people who want to do these jobs there is work. >> thank you, sandra smith. next y, polls show most americans think it is a good idea to raise the minimum wage. who would be against that? minimum wage kills. and chef smith and others talk about their first job. >> my first job was at a delicatessen. i told them i had considerable experiences making -- my sandwiches, my lunch at home. >> kids have lemonade stands and i took it one step further. i would sell bags. i would sell it for more. >> shoveling snow, baby-siting and cutting lawns. >> m y first real job was as a

janitor on the weekends in an engineering firm.

a couple years ago congress raisjoed the minimum wage to $7.25 a n hour and now they want to raise it to $10 an hour. that sounds reasonable. it sounds closerai to a living wage. and it is logical to think that raising the minimum will give every worker a little more tmio spend. and that will be good for them and the economy. they willnd spend and people will hire more. it is a win-win. two-thirds support a $10 million minimum wage. one of those who sponsored was minnesota democrat keith ellis

son. he says without the minimum wage an employer will pay the least they can w even if they couldas pay more because they can get away with it. well, it sounds logical except if it is only the law that prevents greedy employers from paying two cents or 10 cents an hour, how come most americans get paid more than minimum wage? whatha is going on here? let's os -- let's ask a businessman. they own the prime cut. you pay most of your worker usa buff minimum wage. >> half above, and the other half is -- >> why pay any above minimum wage? you don't have to. >> they havem learned skills in their worklife if i don't pay them that, somebody else will pay them more. that's because of the knowledge they learned. >> you have to pay more because of competition.

>> absolutely. >> who thought that could raise people's wages? people work their way up. >> absolutely. the ones that don't have the knowledge already need it. interns. they want the knowledge. if the knowledge is the information, the information is theth wealth. that's how you make it. >> so you build a business. you started off with three employees. you created jobs and you have 38. top employees make about $18 an hour. the average is $16.57 an hour, way above minimum wage. the market setsor it for 95% of the workers. whatwh is wrong with having a law to put a bottom on it. >> you don't want to bring in an employee that doesn't know anything.

literally -- we used to have a lot of kids come in and they would work in the deli. now kids come in and they want a job and i have to teachers and them to clean a toilet. they don't know how to clean the toilet. >> they just raised their minimum to $8, a little more than the national average. what does that hurt? >> like i said, the inexperienced worker. the person who doesn't have experience. >> theyor don't get hired. >> they keep pushing them off. >> you just don't hire them. >> so fewer workers get hired. >> yes. >> and i get to work harder. >> how do you feel when politicians say you have to t least thisa much? >> i feel like it is pandering in the highest degree. it takes away from my ability to ruin my business. try running a business -- i hear them say that if you are paying a few more cents or a

dollar an hour more it puts you out ofol business, we have a bad business model. well, i have been doing this 19 years. i am still in business. i have gone from three employees to 28 employees, and i am proud of that. >> when i was a kid i would go to a movie theater and there would be an usher. no more ushers ssments -- ushers. no more people washing your windshield at a gas station. >>ta because of the minimum wage? >> absolutely. >> i remember there was an old man who loves the fox theater. he would stand there and shine the light on your ticket and take youhi down to your chair, and he got paid hardly anything. but he loved movies. he was retired. he wanted to do something. >> can't dote it anymore. it is. illegal. >> it is against the law. >> your first job was what? >> oh i was working food service . i think i was busing and doing some other stuff like $2.25 an hour. when i was young that was not bad. it was better than not having a job. >> my father and mother instilled work ethic. you work. you don't say should i jump? you say how far should i

jump? >> they also used to hire people on construction sites, kids who learned on the job. that's gone too. >> prop 13, you don't have the jobs learning how to weld and how to do that stuff either. >> it is illegal for the employer to just bring a kid on and see if he is good at it. >> for free, yes. >> for free or for $4 or $6 an hour. >> whatever they are willing to work for. >> but the public supports higher minimum wage. a survey of economists found two-thirds specialize in labor law and labor economics say it kills jobs, but the public doesn't get't that. >> more of the public should be an employer and tell about what goes into providing jobs. by the time you get done with taxes and everything else you are paying $14 for that person to get $8. everything goes up because of that. >> are you making money now. you are a selfish rich guy who

doesn't want to share. >> i am keeping my business and making sure i can teachers and people how to work. show up on time. if your shoes aren't tied, i probably don't want to talk to you. >> thank you very much. next, others tell stories about their first jobs. >> my first job, i guess it was a short order cook. >> my first job was at what was known as spa ladies where i became an aerobics in instructor in another life. as i like to say, another body. >> i worked at a deli, and i had to chop up raw fish for this fish salad this german lady made, and that was disgusting. i didn't work there very long.

what was your first job? asking around this building i was struck by how many people delivered newspapers. >> i was a delivery boy. >> a newspaper girl. >> i was delivering papers when i was 11 or 12. >> lots of people said their first job was restaurant work. >> my job was to clean up the

parking lot. >> i was q washing dishes friday, saturday angnd sunday. >> i worked at my father's bakery. i washed the pots and pans and scraped the floors. i don't think i even got paid. >> america makes it illegal to work when you are young, but there is an exception if you work for your family. >> my job is working in my family's restaurant at a young age. they started me at eight years old cleaning the tables and then i was promoted to hoss tess and waitress. and they used to -- my dad used to make me work shift after shift and i would work all of these shifts and i would get angry because he would send the other waitresses home. >>th some talked about how hard they had to persist to get a first job. >> going around town and asking the business owners if they would pay me to sweep their sidewalks and their parking lot. >> m some persisted even when the money wasn't good. >> my first job was mowing lawns at the university of denver for the princely sum of $1.15 an hour.

>> and i had the job of getting all of the coins from the cash register and putting all of the pennies in the paper rolls and i put the nickels in the rolls and so i spent time stuffing them. >> many worked long hours. >> working school nights until 2:00 a.m. >> and u my mom would pick me up at 2:00 in the morning. she was raising five kids, not just me. and the third night this happened she said, billy you need t bo find another job. >> i had a scraper tool and i had to go around to every pain of glass and scrape off any glue or any paint that was left on there. >> charles pain worked at a shop in hair -- in harlem. >> it was a tough gig. i was in a location where i had to be a security guard as well. that was a tough one. >> some laugh about the hard work.

>> i was a garbage man. i was one of those guys who road on the back of the truck. you threw them in, and they didn't have plastic ones back then. they had the big heavy metal things. you throw them in and sometimes you pick it up andgo . >> and thet hard work taught available lessons. >> did it change my life? it most certainly did. i decided i never wanted to ever, ever, ever be a professional person who puts the money in the paper things. i decided have i to have a job that was fascinating. i knew i would bawe in trouble and would never be able to be a lawyer so better be a lawyer. i ultimately became a lawyer. >> onlyam a few of my colleagues found jobs in the field we are now. >> be a a dj for an hour. so i was. >> what did you do to win? >> you entered a contest. i really thought what does the station sound like? i can't believe they gave me a key to the radio station and

let me open it up and sign it onig the air and do everything from news and disk jockey and it was a terrific job. >> i found only one other person who really liked his first job. >> the first job i was between 16 and 20. i worked as a sailing instructor , and it taught me that there m are people in the world, and they would actually pay you. >> most first jobs were not that fun. >> i watched pots and pans. >> i can tell you what my worst job was. it was washing dishes in a hospital. the dash washer was so big you walked into it. i was never so wet, so humid, so hot anytime in my life. >> most everyone said they are grateful for the lessons they

learned. e >> theye taught me that if you work heyard you can earn things and accumulate things. >> it taught you the value of work and the dignity of work. there is something about getting it yourself. >> it taught you to keep showing up for work. >> it taught me to be puncture. punctual. >> it taught me i can do better than m minimum wage. i went out the next summer and bought my own lawn mower and charge people $8 to mow their lawns and do it in an hour and i got a much better -- i had a more lucrative business working for myself. >> i learned if i wanted to buy anything for myself, i needed money, and i b needed to make my own money. it was a lesson i learned very early on. i was notten titled to anything. so it was -- in all regards it was the beginning of a life as a capitalist. >> it was a hoot that early in

the morning to make a little money. >> his job was working on a double decker bus in london. >> it taught me how do you deal with drunks? how do you deal with the general public? you get a lot of that as a london transport bus conductor. it also taught you punctuality. you may not be late appearing for your shift. >> he learned a lesson he wasn't supposed to learn. >> i worked as a page in my hometown. i was supposed to put books away. as they returned i took a part ofa books and i restocked them in about 20 minutes and i came back and said where is the next rack? the people who worked there, this was a municipal library they were like, you are done? i was like, yes. this is great work. let me do some more. they were like, no, you were supposed to take two hours to put those away. now just go uh wi and come back back -- and just go away

and come back at the end of your shift. i learned i don't want to work in the public sector. >> most learned by, woulding. >> it gave me the work ethic i have now. >> it taught me what hard work is. i worked every other job in the restaurant business and then moved to the construction business and somehow i thought,n let me try this radio and tv thing. i have been very blessed. >> even if the job would be illegal today. >> i was 13 years old, and i went to work at tyson's drugstore, expru not supposed to drive at 13. you may have heard about that. at 14 and a half in mississippi you can get your driver's license. they gave me my start. and then hardy's after that, but that's another story. >> stossil, back to you. >> and when we return, back to you. that syou viewers viewers and you in our studio audience. you interns get to question our guests.

we are back with your questions for my guests. steven greenhouse. the author says interns are abused. hannah jackman who finds student internships and restaurant owner merv crist. first from my facebook page, any legal job is a contract between employee and employer as long as interns are not forced to work for free. the contract is not breached. what right does government have to interfere? this applies to the minimum wage. i think she makes a lot of sense. >> first i didn't say all interns are abused. i said some> -- i said some experts say that they -- there are various employers who are breaking the law by not paying interns. >> so why do countries enact minimum wage laws?

>> because d most politicians are dumb. >> maybe. maybe they are smart. maybe they are above average, but i doubt that. going back a million years they said we have to set a floor for wages because when unemployment is as high as it , $13 million are -- >> do they know what the floor is? >> one could debate what the right floor is. >> if $8 is good, why not $20? why not $100 an hour? we would all be better off. >> with unemployment some would be forced toh say i will work for $2 an hour or 50 cents for an hour. we need to make sure people will make a decent living and they don't have to rely on taxpayers. they want to let people live

decent lives. >> before we go to the audience either of you two want to comment on that? >> specifically on the minimum wage side, it is a learning wage. it is an entry level wage. it has nothing to do with making a living. it is for kids going to high school, kids going through college. you are living at home. there are other support systems for you to understand. show up on time. do the other basic things to have a job. >> now it is illegal. >> in your opinion is academic credit a fair substitute for a salary and these entry level jobs are internships ? > you notice more and more bureaucratic demand. >> if you contract with the employer and say in exchange for this work that i am going to do for you as an intern and you are going to offer academic credit, then that's fine. i think if you contracted the employer and say in exchange for this and that is fine too.

>> how about if you get no money or no credit? >> no money, no credit? that's fair.t? once you start making demands on companies to pay for your academic credit they may say i don't want the hassle. >> i just want to add to that abc where i used to work, they were in tune with the latest in democratic party thinking. they said, we can't have these internships where we don't pay anybody. they decided before it was publicized that itec was illegal. we are going to pay everybody $10 an hour. that's great for those well connected internships who got -- the interns who got the job, but they cut the internships in half. there were far fewer opportunities. >> exactly. i would rather see them have the opportunity to intern rather than not have those opportunities at all. o that is the unintended consequence of forcing companies to give ago academic credit or give money for internships. >> yes, this is for mr. mr. greenhouse. you mentioned earlier that only wealthier students or

students from wealthier families can take advantage of these unpaid internships. my parents are not wealthy. in fact, my mother is on ssi. what would you say to the students who don't have wealthy parents who still save money for several years and take advantage of the opportunity. >> it ist' great, but who will pay the rent in manhattan? where do they get the money to pay? >> you have -- where do you get the money to pay your rent? >> i filmed for two years. >> earlier sandra was talking about how many people don't really realize the opportunities behind vocational school. do you think with the unemployment rate being so high and the deterioration of our economy, do you think a lot of people will be switching and maybe going l to vocational school more, or do you think that people will continue going to universities and colleges and paying off their student loans in years to come? >> i think some people who

might have gone to college to get a bachelor's degree is saying instead of majoring in philosophy maybe i will major in nursing or instead of getting a ba in by yule gee i should become an engineer. this study shows that those with a college degree earn 300,000, 400,000 more a year -- more in their lifetime than some with a high school degree. it is a very good idea to get a college degree. the economy should right itself and i think the payer for having a college degree will be bigger. >> though a lot will be deep in debt. it is not for everybody, but thank you steven greenhouse even though we disagree about everything. >> we agree about college, john. coming up, i will tell you about my first job.

my first job was on an assembly line. i stuck pieces of plastic and metal together for a company for apico. was not smiling like this woman was. i hated the job. it was hot and boring, b working there made me eager to get good grades in school so i might have other choices. and four yearsge later i got a job as a researcher at a tv station. one day they needed someone to cover a fire and no one was around. it became a career. i say surprise because i never planned to be a tv reporter. i never watched tv news and never took journalism. that's why i thinkm you interns are doing thea right thing,

experimenting with careers, figuring out what you like and what you are good at and what you are not good at. i have one other piece of advice for you, it is important to keep showing up, apply for the job you want. if you don't get it, apply again. job seekers often assume companies areom organized or there is a personnel office who carefully evaluates each applicant. people drop off resumes and wait to hear. but often that's works. often companies are disorganized. they don't want to spend any money to hire anyone until they need someone right now. and then it is tedious to go through all of the resumes on file, but they remember the intern who was helpful last summer, or the kid who just shows up repeatedly eagerly asking for work. that persistent person is often the one who is hired. that'st how martha mccallum got a job. >> my first job was the village cheese shop in new jersey. i think i went in there once a

week for six weeks and bugged them every time i went in asking them if they needed anybody for after school help. >> thefty finally hired her. >> it is no fun to just show up and keep asking, but it does work. outside a nearby welfare office i was told recently there are no jobs. >> there is nothing out there, nothing. >> no jobs around? >> no. >> really? i asked my team to check that out. within a few blocks of that welfare office they found lots of businesses that want to hire people. >> we are hiring. >> this frozen yogurt store wishes more people would apply. >> we need like two or three people all the time basically. >> of 79 businesses we asked in less than two hours 40 said they would hire, 24 said they would take people with no experience. the owner of this restaurant said he would hire lots of people. >> how many? >> 12 to 14 people. i would hire more than that, but it is hard to get good help.

>> right after that interview i told two job seekers about that restaurant. both said great, i will apply. one waited for the start of business on monday and dropped off his resume. he thought that was more professional. but he still hasn't been offered a job. the other job seeker showed up the next day on saturday. saturday morning. he got the job and he is here. would you stand up? tell us what happened.ta you just showed up? >> yes, i showed up and i applied. >> he said, i will hire you. he put you in the kitchen, hot, difficult work and minimum wage, but within a few days you were making more than minimum wage? >> yes. i became a waiter. >> some of the waiters make $100 to $150 a night at this place. >> that's correct. >> so you want to go to graduate school g some day. a restaurant is not a career for you, but what are you learning? is it worth it? >> it is worth it. it is actually a great experience.or >> why? >> i meet successful people every day, and they give me

great advice and tips on how to become successful. i love it. i love going there every day and learning new stuff. it is like a stepping stone. >> all right. just from showing up and asking for the job. that's what i tell job seekers. you can't really know what you like or what you are good at, just show up. apply. apply again. try stuff. work hard. try other stuff. become an intern. you could -- how many of you interns think your current internship willied to a career? will lead to a career? in that same field? fewer of you. but i agree. it is a wonderful experience, but now your government wants to make most internships illegal. give me a break. internships are great. vocational schools are great. low waatge first jobs are great. and the best hope for prosperity is if government gets out of our way.

it will allow those things to happen. that's our show. we will have a new one next thursday at 9:00 p.m. on the fox business network. thanks for watching. ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] what's the point of an epa estimated 42 miles per gallon if the miles aren't interesting? the lexus ct hybrid. this is the pursuit of perfection. without freshly-made pasta. you could also cut corners by making it without 100% real cheddar cheese. but then...it wouldn't be stouffer's mac & cheese. just one of over 70 satisfying recipes for one from stouffer's.

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