>> john: first job was cutting lawns. >> newspaper girl. >> shoveling snow. >> baby-sitting. >> john: what was your first job. >> my job was to clean up the parking lot. >> i needed money and i needed to michael my own money. >> they taught me what hard work is. >> john: i'm told there is no jobs. >> there is nothing out there. >> there are jobs out there. >> yes, we are hiring. >> john: even young workers do just fine. >> i'm 16 and i'm getting paid than most of my friends. >> do internships exploit wsnern

says yes, but mark cuban says. >> the fact we can't do it is ridiculous. >> john: this restaurant owner says the minimum wage kills first jobs. but that is our show tonight. [ applause ] >> john: >> tonight the studio audience it filled with relatively young people because most are interns. some work here at fox. some work elsewhere in new york. internships have become increasingly common in american. y common half of college students do some kind of internships. it's a way for young people to build a resume. try to work out and ways for companies to try workers out and for companies to get some work done cheap. which raises the question, how

many of you interns are paid? i'm talking real wages, not ten dollars a day or something like that. how many of you get paid. nobody. so aren't you being ripped off by these companies, exploited? nobody? see obama labor department says they are exploited. not long ago it made a fact sheet that free internships if the employer derives no immediate advantage from the intern. what? also the administration says better for the business, it's operation actually can be impeded by the intern. are you kidding me? what is the point of that? i had an intern like that once. i think internships are great. i used internships all my career.

they have done some of my best research but lots of people say that it's about time the labor department started punishing companies that employ unpaid interns. steve greenhouse says that. he wrote the big squeeze, tough times for the american worker. she helps students find internships and she says they are great paid or not. steven you say most internships cause problems. >> i wrote articles that experts say many internships cause problems. the labor department, not the obama administration but going back decades has ruled, six criteria --. >> john: but they've never been enforced. >> john: witness the audience. >> i was wondering why nobody raised their hand.

i am breaking the law because i'm not paying you. but it can't be the immediate benefit of the employer. >> john: aside what the lawyers have worked out as a reporter, what is wrong with benefiting? it's win-win. >> it's win-win in many ways but there are people with unemployment so high, many people are saying, well it would be great if employers instead of taking all these smart young people without paying them. >> john: hire people and pay them but replacing paying work? >> i wrote the story where i --. >> john: workplace. >> the graduate of a good college in new york and she was looking for a job in fashion industry. got a job with one of the most

famous fashion house, she worked 9:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. sometimes she worked weekends and wasn't paid at all. a lot of the time she didn't have things to do, she ran errands. >> john: she can quit. >> that is true. we believe that companies should follow the rules. that is a conservative notion, companies should not break the law. >> john: dumb rule. >> then changes the rules. people in company should lobby the labor department to change the rules. >> john: you help students find internships? >> absolutely. we are based out of washington, d.c. and i can't say enough the advantages and importance of doing these kinds of internships paid or unpaid. they are incredible opportunities giving students what they want to do with their lives. incredible opportunities for networking and learning how to

be a grownup young professional. if we force companies --. >> john: it's hurting, he says it's hurting the paid workers? >> i don't see how that is possible. a lot of interns do the sort of work that is motd what a full time employee would do but other things. so they aren't in lieu of a full time employee. >> john: i recently interviewed a billionaire and he is upset about the labor department crackdown. mark cuban he is not allowed to give unpaid work to college students. >> i get e-mails every day, 5-20 more, it would be my dream job to intern to work for the dallas mavericks unpaid. i went to human resources two years ago. i have some projects and put these guys to work for us.

he says you can't do it. it's absolutely ridiculous. >> john: these are kids that might have invented is something cool and they can't get the opportunity. >> if mr. cuban, he should pay his interns. if he did pay them they can be creative and on to exercise great things. >> john: but these kids want to work for nothing for the experience. >> i'm paid internships favor wealthier kids with families that have connections. a. >> john: i look at this audience and they look pretty prosperous to me. >> if your family makes $500,000 a year maybe they can have son and daughter work in new york city and pay $1500 a month rent. >> there are students whose parents are willing to support them as they go to another city

and do an unpaid internship. but there are kids like me that worked themselves through college and put money while they went to college and took those savings and put them into an opportunity to do an unpaid internship. to say that some students have advantage of parental support that we shouldn't let them have any opportunities at all. is lobbying young people to follow their dreams. >> john: a lot of interns i am learning much more from you than i learned in college i don't have to pay you. how many learn more in your internships than you did in college. it doesn't say much for college but unpaid internship a great deal. >> i'm not denying unpaid internships can be educational.

we are law abiding society and follow the rules set forth by various levels of government. it says here in the official labor department rules, if they are engaged in the operations of the employer, performing productive work, for filing, performing other clare equal work, how many of you do that? or assisting examiners, they may be receiving some benefits and form of improved work habits would not exclude them from the retirement requirement to be paid. >> john: i'm not sure what that law said like most laws. we should have a right of contract. you are the workplace correspondent for the "new york times," they love more laws, less freedom. >> we love freedom of speech. we are big believers of freedom. >> but not freedom of contract in the workplace.

>> supreme court of the united states chosen by a duly elected president years ago set forth these rules how the workplace should be governed. until they are changed by the supreme court those are the rules we are supposed to follow. >> john: we are lawbreakers and i have employed lots of interns. thanks. we tell you about some teenagers in high school who have high paying first jobs. sthui possible? plus stories about first jobs, she bill o'reilly. >> my first job at 15 was working at an ice cream stand. it taught me to show up on time. first rule when you get a job, show up on time. i got minimum wage and all the sun-days i wanted, i wish i still had it. >> so he was working as a bus

conductor. a garbage ban.

>>. >> john: today there are no jobs. that is what i hear. but wait. one website that tracks jobless has found almost five million job openings. in june job openings rose by 200,000. america has high unemployment at the moment but companies struggle to find workers. sandra smith looked into that. what did you find out. >> we went out to allentown, pennsylvania. we went to a company called air products where they on hand have over 600 job openings. we went to a small town and found jobs. so it's not altogether

unreasonable to say that there are jobs out there that are going unfulfilled for long periods of time. in many of these jobs you don't have to have a college education. most of them you don't have to have a college education. a lot of people we talk to, young men simply had a high school degree. >> john: you did this report. let's play a clip. >> all we ever hear there is no jobs in america. what if i told you that in that building right there high paying jobs sit vacant for sometimes up to a year. >> are you actively recruiting? >> absolutely every day. it's at $20 or more than an hour >> but most of grads don't have the skills he seeks. >> they push the importance of higher education. >> higher education is not a luxury. >> but for many skilled workers there is another path to the american dream. >> vocational schools, kids who

attend technical institute they get jobs. >> i'm 15 and i get paid most of my friends. >> he just bought himself a car. >> i got a new one with the money i made. >> nick learned technical skills in high school. >> you had many job offers as i independence it. and you didn't go to college. >> i got a brother with a master's degree and he is having a lot of trouble finding a job. >> john: the guy with the master's degree can't find a job but with tech skills they. >> they said college wasn't for them. their families couldn't afford college. >> john: this is not cool in america. it's not glamorous. president obama wants more money for liberal arts colleges even proposed cutting support, even

he wants to cut supported for vocational? >> i think it's cool to have a job and buy a car than sit at home without a job. john, i would wholeheartedly agree there is a major push from washington go to college, go to a four-year university. take out the student loans if you have to. why aren't we saying there is another route. the ceo of that company that i went out to visit he was vocational school kid. he came out of vocational school and got a job and prison en to the top of the company. he did attend college and ended going back and he makes over $10 million a year. >> john: that is good and department of labor says it predicts job openings for the future maybe 14% employment growth but electricians they say 23%, plumbers and pipe fitters,

26%. heating and refrigeration mechanics, 34%. this is where the jobs are. >> they are going unfulfilled and some of the jobs are open for over a year. the vocational school graduates there are s work out there. >> john: thank you sandra smith. polls show most americans think it's a good idea to raise the minimum wage. who would be against that? i am. i would say minimum wage kills first jobs. later sandra smith and greta van susteren talk about their first job. >> my first job was a deli and i was the manager and considerable experience making my sandwiches and lunch at home. >> kids with lemonade stands, i would sell bags. i would go buy stuff. >> shoveling snow and cutting lawns.

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[ applause ] >> john: couple years ago congress raised the minimum wage to 7.25 an hour and some congressmen want to raise it to $10 an hour, closer to a living wage. it's logical to raise the minimum will give every worker more to spend. they will spend and people will hire more and it's a win-win. two-thirds of americans support a ten dollar minimum wage. one of the congressmen who sponsored the ten dollar minimum is minnesota democrat keith

ellison. without the minimum wage. >> an employer will pay the least they can, even if they could pay more because, y they can get away with it. people would paid, 10 cents. >> john: it sounds logical except only the law that prevents greedy employers from paying 2 cents or 10 cents an hour. how come most americans get paid more than minimum wage? what is going on here? let's ask a businessman, merv owns a bar in bakersfield. you pay most of your workers above minimum wage? >> about half above and other half. >> john: why pay any of them above minimum wage? >> they have learned skills in their work life that if i don't pay them that, someone else will pay them more. >> john: you have to pay them more because of competition?

>> absolutely. something called the free market. who thought that could raise people's wages. a lot of people start at the minimum wage and then work their way up. >> absolutely. the ones that don't have the knowledge need it. interns. they want the knowledge is the information. the information is the wealth. that is how you make it. >> john: so you build a business you create jobs and you have 28 employees now. half the employees earn about $18 an hour. the average hourly wage in america is $16.57 well above minimum wage. the market sets it for 95% of the workers. what is wrong with having a law just to put a bottom on it? >> it takes people who don't have any experience and it cuts them out of market. you don't want to bring in an employee that doesn't know

anything. literally some of the high school kids, at my old place we had a lot of high school skids kids. we moved to the restaurant. some of the high school kids want a job, i have to teach them how to clean the toilet. they don't know how to clean the toilet. >> john: california raised it to $8 an hour. what does that hurt? >> inexperienced worker, the person that the doesn't have experience. >> they don't get hired. >> keeps pushing them off. >> john: you don't hire them? >> we hire somebody that has experience. >> john: so fewer workers get hired and fewer workers get a chance? >> and i have to work harder. >> john: how do you feel when politicians you have to pay this much? >> i feel like it's pandering in the highest degree. it takes away from my ability to run my business. try running a business, i hear them say if you are paying a few more cents or a dollar an hour

more it puts you out of a business you have a bad business model. i've been doing this 19 years. i've gone from three employees to 28 employees. i'm proud of that. >> john: when i was a kid you would go to a movie theater and there would be an usher. no more people washing windows at gas station because of the minimum wage? >> absolutely. i remember when i was a kid. there was a man that loved fox theater and he would stand there and shine a light on your ticket and take you down to the chair and he loved movies. he was retired. he wanted to do something. >> john: can't do it anymore. >> it's against the law. >> john: your first job was what? >> i was food service, bussing 2.25 an hour. when i was young, that wasn't bad. it was better than not having a job. my father and mother, you work. you don't say, should i jump.

you say how far should i jump. >> john: and they would hire on construction sites kids that learned on the job. that is gone, too? >> prop 13 you don't have the jobs learning how to weld. >> john: it's illegal for the employer to bring a kid on and see if he is good at it. >> for free, yeah. >> john: public supports higher minimum wage. survey found two-thirds that specialize in labor law and labor economics say it does kill jobs but the public doesn't get that? >> more of the public should be an employer and understand how much goes in to providing jobs. $8 an hour job, by the time you get done with taxes, you are paying $14 for that person to get $8. you are pushing inflation. everything goes up because of that. >> john: you are making money.

you are selfish rich guy. [ laughter ] >> i'm doing my social responsibility by keeping a business running in a poor economy and making sure i can pay people and teaching people how to work. o'reilly says, show up on time. if your shoes aren't tied i probably don't want to talk to you. >> john: thank you very much. bret baier, shep smith will tell stories about their first jobs. >> my first job, i was a short order cook. >> my first job where i became a little aerobics instructor. >> i worked at a deli and i had to chop up raw fish for the fish salad this lady made. i didn't work there very long.

>>. [ applause ] >> john: what was your first job. i was asking around this building, how many delivered newspapers. >> i was a delivery boy. >> newspaper girl. >> when i was delivering papers when ways 11 or 12. >> lots of people said their first job was restaurant work. >> my job was to clean up the

parking lot of the dairy queen. >> i was washing dishes. >> i was 8 years old and i worked in my father's bakery. i scraped the floors. i don't think i got paid. >> john: america makes it illegal to work whether you are young but there is an exception. >> i worked at family restaurant. they started at me eight years old and i was promoted to hostess and then waitress. and i worked shift after shift. i would work all these shifts in a row. he would send all the other waitresses home. >> john: sometimes it was how hard to get first job. >> to see if they would pay me to sweep their sidewalks. >> some persisted even if the money wasn't good? >> my first job was mowing lawn at university of denver for $1.15 an hour. >> i think my first job was in the back room of a dairy.

i had the job of getting all the coins in cash register and putting all the pennies in the paper rolls and dimes and quarters. it was stuffing those paper rolls. >> john: many worked long hours. >> working until 2:00 a.m. my mom would pick me up at 2:00 in the morning. she was raising five kids, not just me. the third night this happened she said, billy, you need to find another job. >> john: shannon bream helped her mother? >> i had to go around every pane of glass after they were painted and scrape off glue and paint. >> charles payne worked at a shop in harlem? >> it was tough gig. you did the register but i was in location i had to be a security guard, as well. that was a pretty tough one. >> john: some laugh about the

hard work. >> i was a garbage man. one of those guys that rode on the back of the truck. you threw them in and they had big heavy metal pails and sometimes you would pick it up. >> john: and it taught valuable lessons. >> it most certainly did. i decided i never wanted to be a professional person that put money in those paper things. i decided i have to have a job. i wanted to be a lawyer because i knew i would be trouble and i wouldn't be able to afford a lawyer so i ultimately became a lawyer. >> john: only a few of my colleagues found a job they are in now. >> they were giving air time away. >> john: what did you do to win the contest? >> he said, what songs did you play. i thought what does the station sound like. i can't believe they gave me a key to the radio station, sign

on the air and do everything from news and disk jockey. >> i found only one other person that found his first job. >> first job was ages age 16-20 when i worked summers as a sailing instructor in a day camp. what it taught me, there are people in the world when you are doing a job that you would do for nothing will actually pay you. when they are offering it, don't object. >> most first jobs were not much fun? >> they didn't have a dishwashing machine. i had to wash and scrub all the plates and pots and pans. >> it was washing dishes in a industrial kitchen in a hospital. the washer was so big i walked into the dishwasher. i've never been so humid and so hot any time in my life. >> john: most everyone said they

are grateful for the lessons they learned. >> if you work hard, you can earn things and accumulate things. >> much of the value of work and also the dignity of the work. there is something about getting it yourself. >> it taught me you had to keep showing up for work. >> it taught me to punctual. people don't get a newspaper they are angry. >> what it taught me i could do better than minimum wage. next summer i bought my own lawnmower i would charge $8 to mow their lawns and i much more lucrative business. >> i learned if i wanted to buy anything for myself i needed money and i needed to make my own money. it was a lesson i learned very early on. i was entitled to anything. in all regards it was the beginning of a life that as a capitalist. >> i learned it was kind of a

hoot that early in the morning to make a little money. >> his first job was working double-decker buses? >> it taught me a lot. how to deal with drunks and deal with general public. it also taught you punk wallet. you may not be late when appearing for your shift. it was one of the toughest jobs i ever had but i'm glad i did it. >> john: nick learned a lists he was not supposed to learn? >> i worked as a page in my hometown library. i was supposed to put books away. i took a cart of books and i restocked them in 20 minutes. where is the next. people that worked there, municipal library they were like you are done. yeah, this is great work. let me do some more. no, you were supposed to take two hours to put those away.

go away and come back at the end of your shift. what i learned from that, i don't want to work in the public sector. >> john: whatever the job they learned just by working. >> the work ethic now. it taught me what hard work is. i worked every other job in the restaurant business and moved on to the construction business and somehow i thought let's try this radio and tv thing. >> even if the job would be illegal today. >> i was 13 years old and i went to work at tyson's drugstore. you are not supposed to drive at 13. at the time 14 and a half in mississippi you could get your driver's license. and then hardy's after that. stossel, back to you. >> john: with we return, back to you, viewers. you interns get to question our guests.

>>. [ applause ] >> john: we're back with your questions for my guests. steven greenhouse, author that says interns are abused. hannah jackman and restaurant owner, merv crisp but first, any legal job is a contract between employees and employers as long as interns are not forced to work free. contract isn't breached. what right does government have to interfere. it applies to minimum wage. i think she makes a lot of sense >> i didn't say all interns are abused. i said some experts say that there are various employers that are not paying their interns.

so why do countries enact minimum wage laws. >> john: politicians are dumb? >> maybe they are smart. maybe above average, i doubt that. [ laughter ] >> but clearly the government is going back many, many years decided that we have to set a floor for wages because when unemployment is as high as it is 13 million people. >> john: what the floor? >> the debate what the floor you are right. >> $8 a good, why not a hundred dollars an hour. we'll all be better off. >> i think they have enacted minimum wage because they feel with unemployment high some may be forced to say, i'll work for 50 cents an hour. there is an imbalance in this contract. we have to make sure people will make a decent living so think don't have to rely on welfare or medicaid and things like that. so they are trying to set a minimum floor so people can live

decent lives. >> specifically minimum wage side, it's a learning wage. it's an entry level wage. it's not making a living it's kids going high school. they live at hole. there are other support systems, show up on time. do the other basic things to have a job. now it's illegal. >> and academic setting a dollar for entry levels. >> john: you notice more and more bureaucratic demand. >> absolutely. if you credit with the employer in exchange for this work you are going offer me academic credit. that is fine. i think if the contract with the employer in exchange for this experience, i won't be paid or i'll be paid some small amount or scholarship or hourly wage. that is fine, too.

>> how about if you get no money no credit? >> i think it's fair. once you start making demands on companies to pay you academic credit. they say i don't want the hassle. i would rather see something else. >> john: abc where i used to work, in tune with the latest democratic party thinking. they decided, we can't have these internships where we don't pay anybody. they decided before it was publicized. we're going to pay everybody $10 an hour. that is great for those well connected internships that got the job but they cut the internships in half. there were fewer opportunities. >> i would rather see internships have the opportunity rather than not have the opportunity at all. that the unintended consequence of forcing companies to give academic credit. >> you mentioned earlier that

only wealthier students or kids from wealthier families can take advantage of these unpaid internships. what would you say to the students that don't have wealthy parents that save money for several years, tucked it away and was able to take advantage of this opportunity? >> it's great if they could get internships, who is going to pay their rent for manhattan? so unfortunately. >> where do you get your money. >> i filmed weddings for two years and started a video business. >> sandra was talking about how many people don't realize the opportunities to go vocational school. do you think with the unemployment rate being so high, do you think a lot of people will are switching to vocational school or people are going to continue going to universities and colleges and paying off student loans in the years to come? >> i think some people might

otherwise to get a bachelor's degree, instead of making philosophy, may be i'll major in nursing. instead of getting a b.a.in biology, maybe i should be an engineer. by and large the studies show those with the college degree earn $300,000 more in their life than with a high school degree. by and large, it's a very good idea to get a college degree. sometime the economy should right itself and payoff for having a college degree will be even bigger. >> john: so a lot of you will be deep in debt and not for everybody. thanks steven even though we disagree about everything. coming up, i'll tell you about my first job. [ applause ]

woman: she wants to be home with her friends. but at this moment, she's fighting a brain tumor. announcer: please take a moment and join st. jude in finding cures and saving children. visit stjude.org.

>>. >> john: my first job was on an assembly line. i stuck pieces of metal and plastic together for a company of american photo equipment. on the assembly line, i hated the job. it was hot and boring, but working there made me eager to get good grades in school. then i got a researcher job at a tv station. somebody wanted me to cover to fire and to my surprise, that became a career. i never planned to be a tv reporter. i didn't even watch tv news. i didn't take a journalism course. that is why i think the interns

experimenting with your careers, what you are good at and what you are not good at. one other piece of advice, keep showing up. to apply for the job you wanted and if you don't get it, job seekers assume companies are organized. that there is a personnel office and evaluate each applicant but people drop off resumes and wait for years. but often that is not how it works. companies are disorganized. they don't want to spend any money to hire anyone until suddenly they meet need someone right now. then tedious to go through all those resumes, but they remember the intern who was helpful last summer or the kid who just shows up eagerly asking for work. that persistent person is often gets hired. >> my first job was at village cheese shop. i think i went in there once a

week for six weeks and bugged them, asking if they needed anybody for after school help. >> john: they finally hired her. outside a nearby welfare office, i was told there are no jobs. >> there is nothing out there. >> no jobs around? >> really, i asked them to check it out. wayne few blocks of that welfare office. they found lots of businesses that want on hire people. >> yes, we are hiring. >> they wish more people would apply. >> we need two for three people all the time. >> out of 79 businesses, 40 said they would hire. 24 said they would take people with no experience. owner of this restaurant said he would hire lots of people. >> how many. >> about 12-14 people. i would hire more than that, but hardest thing is to get good

help. >> john: right after that interview i told two people about that restaurant. one waited for the start of business monday and dropped off his resume. he thought that was more professional. he still hasn't been offered a job. the other job seeker just showed up saturday morning. he got the job and he is here. would you stand up. tell us what happened? you just showed up? >> i showed up and i applied. >> john: and he said i'll hire you and put you in a kitchen, minimum wage but within a few days you were making more than minimum wage? >> yes, i became >> and some of the waiters make hundred to $150 a night at this place? >> that is correct. >> john: so you want to go to graduate school or restaurant but not a career for you. what are you learning, is it worth it? >> it is worth it. it's a good experience. >> john: why? >> i meet successful people

everyday and they gave me great advice and great tips how to successful. i love going there everyday and learning new stuff. it's like a steppingstone. >> john: just showing up and asking for the job. that is what i tell job seekers, you can't know what you are like. just show up. apply. apply again. try stuff. work hard. try other stuff. become an intern. how many of you interns think you current internship will lead to a career? in that same field? too fewer of you. i agree it's a wonderful experience but your government wants to make most internships illegal? give me a break. internships are great. vocational schools are great. low wage first jobs are great. the best hope for prosperity is government gets out of our way and allows those things to

happen. that is our show. we'll have a new one next thursday 9:00 p.m. on the fox business network. thanks a lot. [ applause ]