as long as the governor acted within the law and the constitution of the state of michigan -- so be it. >> all right. j.c. watts. we will bring you back. i think you raise very good points about building relationships with everybody. and you have been a good friend for a lot of years. >> appreciate you, man. thanks for having me on. that's all the time we have. stick with the fox newschannel, with breaking news coverage on a busy, busy news night continues. as always, thank you for being with us. >> this is a nox news alert. a gunman opened fire in a mall in oregon, shooting and killing two people. the gunman, police say, is dead. joining us on the phone is james rose with the clackamas county sheriffs department. can you tell us what you know? >> caller: at 3:30 today, we got a series of 911 calls, describing an active shooter at the mall. the police responded

immediately. and began searching the mall for the shooter and evacuating people, making the scene secure. since then, we have determined, we have secured the shooter, he is dead from an apparent self-inflicted gunshot wound. we are carefully and methodically going through the mall, searching every room and square foot, removing people from the mall. >> have you identified the shooter and determined whether this is a random act of violence, pure evil, or whether or not somebody was specifically targeted? >> we have not. but the investigation is underway as we speak. >> did the gunman say anything? did any witnesses report that he had said anything? >> we have. there is close to a thousand people in the mall at the time. we have hundreds of witnesses, statements to go through. i don't know if we have some specific informs like that. but we are in the process. and all of those are giving us statements to find out. >> anything unusual?

how was he dressed? >> can't talk about how he is dressed yet because there is an ongoing investigation. we have to make sure there are no accomplices. we need to investigate the method he got here and where he lives. we don't want to tip anybody off until we are certain that we have gathered all the facts and possible accomplices. >> it is being reported, sir, i don't know if you can confirm this, that he was wearing camouflage and a white plastic mask. you can confirm that? >> i can't. that was one of many tips we got. but we got several tips that say otherwise, as well. i can't confirm that at this time. now to the -- the cruel -- cruel part of it. the two victims. can you tell us about the two victims? >> no, i can't. we are still in the process of doing the proper identification. notification and that type of thing. we're still early in this process. there is a lot of work ahead of us. >> were they shot inside the

mall or outside the mall? the shooting took place inside the mall. and did the two people who were killed, did they appear to be together or was this sort of random? >> i don't know that. we are not clear as to the nature of the motive. if targets were random or specific. >> as noted, the gunman is now dead from, a self-inflicted wound. you are -- at least scput department are trying to determine whether there are any accomplace polices -- accomplices at this hour. >> right. we don't believe there are any accomplices. but we are going to be careful and do our investigation to be sure that before we release any specific informs. >> thank you very much, sir. >> thank you. >> she was shoppins inside that mall. apparently there were lots of dozens of people inside that mall and there were lots of shots that many people heard. one of the witnesses joins us on

the phone. >> kera? actually she is unavailable. we will get to her in a bin she becomes available. and this is another fox news alert. what the world has been alert for on edge, north korea launching a long range missile. it is the latest move by the very secretive country. japan said part of the rocket landed west of the peninsula and another part in or near the philippines. we are joined on the phone. good evening, sir. >> hi, greta. >> well this, is certainly a surprise because they had extended the window until december 29th for the launching of this rocket. do you know anything about at least the reported rocket, how far the range is, if it's a successful launch? >> nobody knows right now or at least it's not been released the rocket achieved orbit but that's not the issue.

the issue is this rocket, after four failed attempts, has fired all three of its stages. in other words, the rocket fired all three stages and eventually put some kind of payload almost due south over the pacific ocean. what that means is that after five attempts the north koreans have masterd it. eventually they could deliver a warhead as far away as the west coast of the united states, greta. >> last april they attempted it and it failed. something changed between then and now, assume it is not a failure. my suspicion is they got some help from somebody. any thoughts on who might have helped them or do you think they fixed their technology or corrected their errors by themselves? >> no, they haven't developed this on their own. they have gotten help from many

different rogue states. they have gotten help from stolen scientific data from russia, they have gotten help from the pakistanis. remember, this is nothing more than a 1960's era soviet rocket on steroids. they built two additional stages to an old russian design. it is not generic but what is important is they can put an object into orbit, and if they can miniaturize the nuclear warhead, they can reach the western part of the united states. doesn't are to be active to the north koreaians, but it's another way that this criminal state can blake mail the west, particularly japan, south korea and the united states into doing their bidding, greta. >> i mean what has caught me by, i don't know if surprise is the

right word, but they did this up near the yellow river which is right across from china: i have been there. you can throw a stone across, it's that narrow. the chinese are right there. the chinese had to see this one coming and it's done each in defines of the chinese. >> let's face it, the real thing in this thing is the chinese and they aren't happy about this. but what are their choice necessary can they pull back their support from north korea and watch the state collapse and watch, you know, millions of refugees flood into china or they can offer some minimum support to keep them alive. this is a criminal state, a mafia state. thishat's only run to support this ruling family of the kims, and the only reason they launched this rocket is not for scientific research, but to intimidate and blackmail the rest of the world so they can

continue to get food aid, fuel to support this failing regime from the other states in the region. so this is nothing more than, as far as i'm concerned, and most people are concerned, this is nothing more than nuclear blackmail, greta. >> the thing that is so profoundly bizarre about this, and we have been to north korea three times, is the people of north korea honestly believe that we are still at war with them, that we, meaning the americans, we want to kill them. they think that every saturday night that we are sitting around thinking how are we going to kill those north koreaians. everything they do is marching in step, having the nationalistic parades. they are so certain we are coming for them any second and that's what is so bizarre about this. >> and let's make a couple a quick points. they an army of 1.1 million. but their equipment dates back to the 1960s. increasingly they are becoming

obsolete. all they have left is the ability in theory, at least, to deliver a long range nuclear weapon. that's the only thing they have left that's legitimate, and therefore this regime is being propped up by this -- by this attempt to coerce the united states into providing them food aid and fuel aid. it's absolutely outrageous and it's time for the administration to cut off all aid to north korea and to pressure the chinese to do the same. >> and we have much more to talk about that on another night, general, because there's so much to talk about. thank you for joining us. >> thank you, greta. >> now to breaking news to oregon. a gunman opens fire at a mall, killing two people. kera was shopping there when she heard dozen. gunshots she joins us on the phone. good evening. where were you when you herd the shots and what do you think was going on? >> hi. yeah, i was with my

six-month-old son and he was in my arms. me and him, we were at the perfume department area. if you know at macy's, there the perfume department is the last thing you walk through before you leave the store into the mall. that's where i was. smelling the perfume and i all of a sudden heard two shots fired and everybody kind of looked at each other in confusion. then more shots were fired. then everybody started to say get on the ground. so as i was starting to get on the ground, more shots were fired. so everybody then just started running, so i put my baby into the stroller and we just started running toward the exit in the opposite direction of the shooter. >> all right. i know you didn't see the shooter, but did you hear him say anything? >> no, i did not. no. it is news to me that -- yeah.

i did not hear anything. >> was the shooter deeper into macy's? was he all the way into the department store? >> after his gun had jammed and the magazine fell to the floor is when he started to go run or walk, i'm not too sure, into macy's. and we were -- me and my baby were about 15 to 20 feet away from the door. so as we were running, he probably was right behind us. >> you are very lucky. and your child is very lucky. i'm terribly sorry that happened to you and there are two people dead in oregon, which is a tragedy. thank you for joining us. >> yes. thank you. >> now to lansing, michigan. protesters have invaded the michigan state capital over the right to work. >> the unions are on the ropes. [chanting] >> top democrats here in

michigan say despite everything you see, despite all the show of force on the lawn forecast capital -- >> i wasn't talking to you. you put your hands on me, see what happens. >> this stage of the fight is really over. [chanting] >> in michigan it's going to play out just like it did in wisconsin. >> we are here to protest against right to work. >> this is giving workers the freedom to choose. >> what time is it? >> union time. >> what time is it? >> union time. >> what time is it. >> union time. >> the so-called right to work laws, they don't have to do with the economy, they have everything to do with politics. >> in the end it's a shakedown for political contributions and the democrats do well with unions so they want unions to be really powerful. >> the governor of michigan is one greedy nerd, and he's one

weak geek, and we aren't going to take it anymore. >> unions, unions, unions! >> i would say it's a union talk as to why they add value. and if workers really see value, if they see why it's a good thing to be long, they will join, and if they don't, why should they join? >> i'm out here to protect us as a union, and to protect our collective bargaining rights. i'm hoping to make a change. this is wrong. they have taken and they have stripped the right of the michigan people. >> the protests looked like wisconsin but it's not. the explosive video shows protests inside the michigan state capitol. the protesters are chanting "shut it down." and outside the protests growing violent. an angry mob destroying a tent on the state capitol lawn. some in the crowd were armed with knives. michigan is the 24th state heading into the right to work column. our next guest called to a,

quote, bold and historic day for michigan. earlier tonight we spoke to michigan state senator majority leader arlen meekoff. >> what do you expect to get for the state of michigan out of this? what is the impact a year from now? >> i think the impact is a bold and historic day for michigan. simply gives us the opportunity to be competitive throughout the world and in our region and to give us the best opportunity for economic growth for our citizens. >> how do you think it gives you a better opportunity to be competitive? >> it simply says when you are looking at expanding your business here in michigan or moving your business here in michigan or creating a business here in mhigan, you now as employees will have the choice whether to join a union or not to join a unit. >> do you have any sort of study to show this is in any way going to enhance the economy of michigan? can you point to other states? has this been a direct impact on their states, their economic viability. >> if you look at indiana, the amount of projects they are about to take and have undertaken have given their

people a great tune to provide jobs in their communities. >> why do you think the governor changed his mind on this? a lot of people were talking, a lot of the contracts don't like it because they didn't like the process. it got pushed through quickly, and, b, the governor change the his mine the last couple months. >> the governor locked at it and said this is an opportunity that is here. it's bold. against it's historic because it puts michigan on the map as a place people are going to want to do business. >> why is an opportunity now and not before? >> he asked the leaders to stand down on it and they did not, so i'm not reading the governor's intent into it, but he believed it's the right time and he came out to be a leader on it, as well. >> other than an employee no longer will be obliged to be a member of a union, does it unable the employer to hire more easily? does it have anything -- or fire more easily? >> no, i don't believe it does, greta. it's simply the ability for the

union to make their case and market to the employee. they have a choice what they do with their dollars and they are able to make that choice. that's for their family. >> taking a look at this protest around your state, what do you think? at least around the state capitol. >> they predicted there would be a lot more people and i guess it was about half the crowd they were expecting. isn't democracy great, people voicing their displeasure. it's unfortunate there were property damage and maybe some people got injured. but we debate it had long and hard on the senate floor, over five hours of debate on the senate floor, three or four hours on the house floor this afternoon and i believe the public is being served with open debate. >> do you have any objection as you marvel about how great democracy is, that schools had to shut down because 750 staff called in absent today making it impossible for them to provide -- keep the school open? >> well, it's unfortunate those folks made that choice. again, i think it shows their priorities.

i was hopeful that their priorities would be the children and upholding of the people that sent them there to do their job. >> i suppose they would say that they can be more effective teachers if they have a union so i suppose that would be the argument, it's not going to inhibit their ability. obviously today was lost but i would suspect they would say that somehow it would make them less able to -- not as good as provided an education for the kids. >> again, the union will have to market that to those employees and say there's a value proposition, you have money that you have earned, and if it is -- you want to join our unit because it's the most -- it's beneficial to you and your family, you will simply have the choice. >> straight ahead, republican u.s. senator rand paul says fine, let democrats dig their own hole. how does he think democrats are going to do that? senator rand paul will tell you. he's coming up. and more breaking news. tragic shooting at an oregon mall during the busy holiday season. more than 60 shots killed and two innocent victims killed.

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>> this is a fox news alert. a shooting at a mall in oregon. three people killed, including the shooter. let's get right to kaitlin. what are you hearing? >> well, at this hour we have learned the shooter furnished

the gun on himself. it's believed he acted alone. his motives are unclear. at one point over 100 officers were here assisting with the investigation. you see things have died down quite a bit now. we are told all those detectives went inside of the ball and evacuated each and every mall-goer and employee. everybody now is in the process of talking with detectives and reuniting with their loved ones. as you said, three people are dead, including the shooter. we do not know anything about the victims at this hour. we do know one other person was critically injured and rushed to the hospital, as well. now as we said, we do not know the motives of the shooter, but what we can tell you is that he walked through the macy's home furniture store here just after 4:30 this afternoon and went straight for the food court there. witness say he just started opening fire like crazy. they described him as having death in his eyes and really not even being aware of his surroundings. it looked like he had one cause

and that was to seriously injure people. we are told that shooter also said to get on to the ground. some people listened to him, others ran for the door. we spoke with many who say that it was just crazy as they were running for their lives. another witness told us he did see a body on the ground and that's certainly something that is going to stay with him for quite some time. but you can imagine how horrific it is. the mall is supposed to be a safe haven here and for anybody across the nation. back to you. >> thank you. now a republican who is against the new labor rules in michigan. andy potter is a republican committee chairman of sesu and we spoke with him earlier. >> you are a republican, and you are opposed to this right to work. so tell me why? >> i am because i believe that through generations here in michigan we've been able to enjoy a good middle class with a good wage and some healthcare. and that's all going to be wiped

away with the swipe of a pen. and whether you are rich or poor, doesn't matter, democrat or republican. you have to ask yourself about the process of being used here in order to pass through some bills that are absolutely detrimental to this state and are going to divide the state. they are divisive. i'm using the governor's words here. for a long time he's used that word divisive, and as a republican i trusted him, i listened to him, my friends and family list toned him. now we all know what is really going on and we wish they would come out and call it what it is here. >> which is what? union busting? >> which is absolutely union busting. and they keep pointing their finishingtories the unions and saying that's why they can't bring in good jobs. well, i absolutely do not believe that. this state is growing. the governor also said that the other night, that the state is growing in jobs. now the unions aren't standing in the way of any job growth here in michigan. it's a good state. people come here to have a good

jobs, have good wages and some healthcare. there's nothing wrong with that. it's the american dream and it's slipping right between our fingers and i don't believe michigan is going to stand by and let it happen. >> do you concede that the american dream also collision the right to pick, to choose, to decide whether you want to be in the union or not? if that's part of the american dream, the freedom of choice? >> absolutely. but when you see this many people protesting, and i know a lot of good, red-blooded americans when they see freedom, they any what they are looking at. that is not what they are calling this. when they look at this, they know they are being sold a bill of goods. the republican party, i'm disappointed in them. not all of them because not all of them voted for this. i am disappointed in the governor. my friends and family are disappointed in the governor. the only money they have brought into this state, millions of dollars, are not going to create one job. those millions of dollars have done nothing but ripped that american dream right out of the hands ever all theserking class citizens.

it's wrong. >> is it possible that having this provision where people can opt out of a union, it doesn't force the union to be more responsive to everyone's needs? because if the union does could that, then you are going to have complete membership anyway in theory. so does it not just require the union to work a little harder so that 100% of a workplace thinks it is a good thing to do and to belong to the union? >> the problem with that theory is that when michigan is in hard times, like it has been, the unions do compromise. they do come to the table, they do work things out. and remember sometimes they aren't always happy with us for doing that. it will lay on their heart strings and they are going to opt out, which is going to take the leverage a away. there won't be any accountability here whatsoever. >> coming up, republican senator rand paul has a different fiscal cliff solution. he says let democrats raise it's a new day.

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including the fact that a preferred risk policy starts as low as $129 a year. for an agent, call the number that appears on your screen. >> a new hidden fee with obamacare. why the hidden fee and how much money does it bring in? how much will it cost you? is there any risk employers will lay people off because forecast hidden fee? byron of the washington examiner joins us. what is this sneaky hidden fee? >> we are just kind of find being out a lot of stuff that's actually in obamacare.

>> that's what leader pelosi said. >> she wasn't quite right. she said we have to pass the bill to find out what's in it. actually you have to implement the bill to find out what's in it. obamacare gave hhs, health and human services, the power to levy a fee and this fee in particular is after january 31st insurance companies will have to insure everybody, including people who have pre-existing conditions and people who are not in good health. it's going to cost them a lot of money. we don't know exactly how much that is. so the law allows hhs to collect a fee from employers. >> up front? >> $63 a person. >> up front? >> yes. >> why not at least have the insurance companies bill back because they will be worried about how much they get so maybe they will try to worry it. >> they want to have a pool of money. they want to have a pool of money that could raise $25 billion to ease the way for insurance companies that are hit with high costs for insuring previously uninsurable people. so the $63 is set in a

regulation by hhs. remember the obama administration kept a lot of regulations back until after the election and they were kind of holding off on that. now we are finding out what it costs. >> we should give a nod to congresswoman michele bachmann because she was complaining about thighs headen numbers forever and everybody was so overwhelmed nobody paid attention. the $25 billion, suppose they don't need $25 billion. let me guess, do we get a refund on it? >> they do not give it back. >> there's a fox news alert. what a surprise! >> and this is a part of other taxes and fees that are going in effect on january 1st. you know, we are talking in washington about the fiscal cliff and raising taxes on the wealthy. taxes on the wealthy are going to go up january 1st regardless what happens with the fiscal cliff. the medicare tax on higher earnersers is going up and a steep tax on investment income. >> going up 3.8% on top of it.

so the rich people who have -- who are high earners, their income will probably go up. and then they also, if they have investment income, it goes up 3.8% so they are paying more that way, and they are paying more on a medicare tax. so the democrats say the rich aren't paying more. and these taxes are going up regardless what have happens with the fiscal cliff. these tacks are written in obamacare. and if taxes do i- deed go up on the top two brackets as a result of the fiscal cliff, that will be on top of the obamacare taxes. >> is there any way for us, the nation, to police the earnings or profits are insurance company under obamacare? there are all of these extra, they get the extra deals. now the insurance companies get the extra deals because they have lobbyists and probably sent them over to the white house and capitol hill and they got the $25 billion that the extra americans don't get, the special deal. how do we know we aren't getting totally scammed by the insurance companies?

>> the insurance companies obviously a lot of them wanted obamacare because they sell a product. >> risk. they sell risk. >> and the law -- >> or buy risk. >> and the leforss all ever us to buy their product. if we don't have enough money to buy their product, the law gives taxpayer paid subsidies to buy their product. what's not to like for them? they are private companies but they do financial filings like other corporations. you can't keep an eye on them. you can keep an eye on the profits they are making but specifically how it works, nobody really knows. >> and remember the best odds going into this, in terms of patients, doctors, government, employers, and it teams like the ones who have the best odds are doing well on this are the insurance companies. they have insured themselves by things like. this they are -- they have been insured by the $63 a head tax we are now paying. >> and they were the villains in the obamacare debate from a

democratic perspective. it was the insurance companies who were denying coverage to people with pre-existing conditions. it was the insurance companies that were jacking up rates. they were the villains in all of this. they came out in a very good lace. >> but the republicans were the ones opposed to making it totally public so the republicans in many ways have protected the insurance companies. >> they owe potioned the public option to compete with the insurance companies on the ground that the government can always win that competition. >> well, it's going to be very interesting to see what other little sneaky little tax comes up to pay for it. it's extraordinary how yes are discovering it now. >> there's more in there i think. >> what do you expect in everybody voted on it without even reading it. so why should we be surprised? >> you have to implement it to find out what is in to. >> oh, brother. thank you. >> thank you. >> rand paul has an idea about the fiscal cliff and it's not the standard republican idea. what is it? he's next on the record. and why can we catch them?

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>> a masked gunman opening fire on tuesday in a crowded suburban portland mall. three people, including the gunman are dead. he apparently killed himself. a woman is in serious condition in a portland hospital. law enforcement officials have initially identified the gunman, but have not released his name or a possible motive. u.s. officials are confirming that north korea has successfully launched a missile. the north claiming it was a peaceful move to put a satellite into orbit. the white house calling it a highly provocative act. but the neurospace defense command says at no time was it a

threat to north america. now back to "on the record" with greta van susteren. senator rant democrats dig their own grave. he says let democrats raise taxes on everybody. senator paul telling republican colleagues senator to vote present on a deal allowing democrats to push through their tax hikes. why would rand paul want to take that tactic? the senator joins us. good evening, sir. >> good evening, greta. >> explain to me why you think that's a good tactic. >> i think what we should do first of all is put forward what we are for. if they are in the house the house leadership should put something forward that extends the bush tax cuts forever and has significance spending cuts, and i think they passed that. the democrats won't accept that and were unwilling to stay by our position, then i had say let them pass a tax increase on the upper increase folks but let it

do it with their votes, not our votes. republicans vote present, democrats pass the tack increase with only democrat votes and then the democrats are the parties of high taxes and the republicans are the party of lower taxes. that's the way if should be. >> well, house is not going to go for that. do you agree? the house isn't going to vote for the democrats deal. >> i'm not saying vote for the bill to raise taxes, i'm saying that we vote first on a bill that says we will not raise the taxes, and that is our true position. that's what we stand for. we think that you stimulate the economy by leaving more money in the economy, actually lowering taxes. that's our philosophy. that's who we are as republican. so i would pass that. the house has passed that previously. i would pass that again now and that if we cannot get the president to negotiate from that position, and if they are going give in, don't give in by splitting the baby, give in by voting present, let the democrats pass an increase in the upper tax brackets, comes over to the senate, republicans

vote no, and it becomes a democrat tax increase but not a republican, slash, democrat tax increase which i think is a mistake for the republicans. >> some say it's not the end of the world if we go over the fiscal cliff but some say it could thrust us back into recession. what do you think will happen? >> i don't think there's a cliff in the sense that all of a sudden tomorrow something dramatic happens. i think stock markets sometimes react quickly, but for the most part, whether it's going to be a recession or not is a much more long, drawn-out process. but i would say that it's not a good idea to raise anyone taxes and that the marketplace does not differentiate whether you take the money from rich people, poor people or middle class. the marketplace says if you are going to take $800 billion, are you taking it out of the private sector, the productive sector, and are you going to give it to the nonproductive sector in washington?

basically the sector of people who are always messing up things in the marketplace? are you going to do that? if you are going to do that, it's a bad idea no matter whether it's rich people, middle class or poor. doesn't matter. if you take private sector, it's a bad idea. >> well, it's not as though the taxes around going to go up on the wealthiest americans come january 1. maybe not to the extent the democrats want in the income tax bracket. but certainly it's going to go up, pay more in medicare under the obama healthcare, they will pay more on their investment income, 3.8% if you are a high earner so there will be additional taxes. i realize you will pay for other things besides. taxes are going to go up for the wealthiest americans on january 1, just not as much as democrats want. would you agree? >> yeah. and here's the question. how much is enough? when will they have enough? the thing is most people in a lot of these high tax states are already pagan excessive amount of their next. look at companies now trying to get away from the tax

collectors. look at google taking their money to bermuda. look at all the corporations who can't stand to pay 35% income tax in america that won't bring their money home. money goes where it is welcome. >> let me ask you about google. google managed to do tax avoidance, but i is not illegal, by putting money in bermuda and i think they saved $2 billion in tax avoid dance. what efforts are being done by the democrats or the republicans to discourage that type of lawful avoid dance, but nonetheless, a huge amount of money for a very wealthy company? >> i'm not against them doing that. in fact, i compliment them because that money stayed in the private marketplace. but i would say to folks who are doing that, don't come to washington and agitate for higher taxes if you are avoiding taxes. by all means, continue to legally avoid as many taxes as you can because that keeps money in the private marketplace and helps to create jobs. i'm all for that. but don't come at the same time

and go tore higher taxes because we need lower >> they don't avoid their taxes by using bermuda because they don't have the structure to do that, number one. and number two, they don't have all of these lobbyists to create these tax -- payroll tax codes so they can do that. you know, there is sort of a wealthy class that is just the

billionaire class -- >> that's true. that's true. it is not -- it isn't a fair tax code. the way to get a fair tax code is to lower rates and get rid of deductions so people don't have to avoid their taxes. but i will say, in google's defense, the corporate income tax in our country is 35%. in canada, it's 15%. in bermuda, i think it's 9%. across europe, alternates in the 20s. money goes to where it's welcome, money is not welcome in the united states. what the president's trying to do is make it worse so money and people will flee. people will flee if you raise their taxes. they won't work as hard. you will get less revenue, not more, exactly the opposite of what the president wants. >> for years and years and years, everyone's programming a great tax code reform. that's all i have been hearing. maybe we will get it sometime. but i'm not holding my breath. >> thank you. >> straight ahead, more than three months ago, four americans, murdered in libbia. now, the u.s. is tracking the suspects.

so why don't we just get them? find out, coming up. the boys use capital one venture miles for their annual football trip. that's double miles you can actually use. tragically, their ddy got sacked by blackouts. but it's our tradition! that's roughing the card holder. but with the capital one venture card you get double miles you can actually use. [ cheering ] any flight, anytime. the scoreboard doesn't lie. what's in your wallet? hut! i have me on my fantasy team.

>> just because they haven't been caught doesn't mean they don't know where they are. i think they are gathering intelligence all over the world, not just within libya. they are the appropriate agency to be doing this. this is a specific crime... osama bin laden was under indictment as a result of an fbi investigation. yet we took him out with military means. that option is still available to -- to -- in case, as necessary. >> two things, one, in the new york times, reporting that libyan government was not particularly helpful in this -- you know, we had this issue about sovereignty, who gets to

investigate and how much can we invade their sovereignty. the second thing, while the fbi has been the right people to investigate it. it happened on 9/11. they didn't get there until early october, which is grossly late. once there, they department pick up all the documents. foreignpolicy.com found documents the fbi didn't and they claimed they couldn't speak to the tunesian man in custody and didn't ask the president to call and ask tunisia to let the fbi to talk to him. it took a south carolina senator, lindsay graham to do that. the fbi may be doing a lot behind the scenes, but publicly, it is not that impressive. >> the delay of three weeks getting in there was because of the libyan government, dragging its feet -- >> that's bad. >> yeah. it's the same as in pakistan. we can't just do whatever we want, when we do, they object. and that's what happened when we

took out osama bin laden. we face that obstacle. >> they need us, the libyan government. four of our americans were murdered. three weeks really can be devastating to an investigation. not necessarily. but can be devastating. have you people poisoning the scene, walking through it. >> yeah. you know, the libyan government has to deal with their own political situation and their own sensitivity. there is only so much we can push them. i am sure we could push them more. but i have confidence -- >> we cut off money to them. >> you know, we have anesquive weapon with libya. we cut off money to them. >> there isn't that much money, it's only $300 million. >> that's a lot of money to libya. that's a lot of money. so $300 million, i could do a lot in my home town, if they are not getting anything for it in libbaia, give to hometown. >> there should be more pressure, no question. remember, it took five years to

get -- the olympic bomber in atlanta, the fbi finally caught up with him. i think they will catch up with these individuals. >> i think they the. i hope they do. but i do know that the trail gets colder every day and oftentime, we do catch up with people, we caught up with osama bin laden, we did catch him. but i wish it looked more aggressive from the outside. like i aid, from the outside. >> yeah, it's good to keep the pressure up and the spotlight on it because it's an important issue. and that does have an effect. >> nice to see you, sir. >> thank you. >> coming up, last call, one quick call. jay leno says he has even more bad news about the so-called end of the world. that's next. i'm breathing better. so now i can be in the scene. advair is clinically proven to help significantly improve lung function. unlike most copd medications, advair contains both an anti-inflammatory

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