>> welcome back, we're going to launch superman one more time. rc buddy.com. apparently we've crashed the website. try again if you can't get on the website to buy one of these supermen. and see you tomorrow and on the after the show show. >> brenda: stocks soaring with the dow surging toward 14,000. and now, a new court ruling could have the job market surging, too? hi, everyone, i'm brenda buttner, this is bulls and bears. the courts delivering a big blow to the white house and unions, deeming the president's recess appointments to the nation's labor board unconstitutional and some here say that gave job creators everywhere the green light for hiring, are they right or wrong? horr

here they are the bulls and bears, toby, jonas max ferris, and gary b smith. and john, you say this gave the green light for new jobs? >> absolutely. look what happened in 1947. we had 5 million americans on strike and the taft-hartley act enacted despite president truman objections and led returning soldiers to one of the biggest economic booms the country had. and the president got his hand caught in the cookie jars and appointing czars and going around congress, we need jobs and this certainly helps with that. we don't need to worry about unions right now, we need jobs, this is putting the cart before the horse. >> brenda: the idea here, caroline, more regulation and federal interference in the private workplace means fewer jobs, do you buy that? >> not at all. when you look at what unions have done for us, over the years, getting rid of the 16

hour work week, they gave us weekends, and safer workplace environment, and as the unions-- >> well, that was a long time ago, a while back. >> that's true, but let's talk today. the fact that we had union busting in the the 60's and in the 80's and now right to work states. we've actually seen real wages decline, except for unionized jobs. the unions are the only thing keeping us from complete economic class, in that our middle class is gone. >> brenda: toby, many argue at that the unions have been why we're in so much debt, with higher pensions and the rest. what do you think this will do? >> this is such a green light and i appreciate the 1947 there on the front lines and great to see that, but the biggest issue here, is that we have now, first, coming in like boeing, it was building a new plant in south carolina that was stopped because the nlrb somehow deemed that it was not in the best interest

of the labor department or the labor to work there. well, that was insane. that was probably 2 billion dollars investments that went up in smoke and that's coming back. people put a lot of projects on hold because they didn't know how crazy this nlrb was going to get. with this being changed you're going to see 5 billion, 10 billion dollar plants coming because they can go where they want to be and by the way, they announced this week lowest percentage of union labor in the united states and by the way, so far we haven't had economcalamity. >> brenda: so far it's taking the labor board out of commission for a while. does that help the economy? >> oh, i believe it does, because it gets to, i think, a bigger issue, brenda, finally, maybe, a little tamp down on government overreach, you know, in obama's inauguration speech, it was all about growing government even bigger than it already is. and the problem is, when government grows, the private sector suffers.

and if you say, well, who cares where the money goes, the problem is government growth is always less inefficient than private sector growth and this is one step toward hopefully allowing the private sector to grow, tamping down on unions which i think have hurt many, many, many industries, despite the higher wages. in the union you have higher wages until you lose your job, and i think this is a step forward, this is progress, what needs to be done. >> brenda: you know, jonas, toby brought up a good point. which is that union membership has been declining for decades, record lows right now. so, what difference does all of this make? the unions don't have as much power. does this make all that much difference to jobs? >> i'll go off what the guest just said. if this were true the unemployment rate wouldn't be so high right now. the union rates the lowest level of all times and should have the lowest unemployment rate and we do not. and what the other guest said they create jobs in a bad way and lowered the amount of

hours you can work, right? doesn't that mean the company needs to hire more people to make up for the fact that they can't work. and all i know, companies rather there not be a labor relations board, good for profits first and foremost, and we have the highest, because labor is in a relatively back position, does it automatically do more hiring not to have unions? maybe in some cases, maybe not. depends what the unions are demanding. if they're demanding less hours, it could lead to higher unemployment. i don't care about the job creation. profit will be there with stock prices and weak labor, and good for the stock market. >> brenda: and let's bring that up. and i'll go to caroline in a minute. ask you about the stock market, the stock market has been hitting five-year records day after day after day. they're not paying much attention to the labor relations board or the fact that unions were getting a little bit more power under the president? >> no, they're not. because, what toby had said is unions at their all-time low,

around 40%, 40, 50 years ago, mid single digits right now. what the stock market is looking at, is the government is so much in gridlock. look, the democrats hated bush tax cuts and they made them permanent and they continued the biggest stimulus program in the history of mankind, 40 cents of every day dollar we don't have. the stock market looks at that, look, free government money everywhere, low taxes, let's party and that's what the market's doing. there's no one in charge in washington d.c. absolutely no one. >> brenda: and wall street likes that. >> yes. >> brenda: caroline, you want to weigh in here? >> well, absolutely. toby, i don't know what u.s. you're living in because we're in economic calamity. we don't have much of a middle class so we have a very long recession, we're not getting out of it it because of the lack of aggregate demand and flexibility in our market system because we have such a bifurcation of rich and poor. and what we have is a david versus goliath. >> hang on professor, i'm looking at the worst calamity

here. >> are we not in a calamity? >> no. >> brenda: should unemployment go up, do you think, because the labor relations board has less power now? are you expecting that to happen? >> well, the primary reason that employers haven't been hiring is number one, lack of aggregate demand, which is tied to the shrinking middle class and number two, uncertainty in the market. not labor, and not the nlrb decision, so actually i don't think it's going to cause a spike in employment. >> i think if you look at boeing, and if you look at their actions, there's six or seven different plants that will now start up because of this being struck down, and some of that labor comes from canada, you know, in the united states and that's the on shoring deal. what we're seeing now in the united states, is on shoring, we off shore jobs before and now we're bringing them back and getting out of the way is going to help that and probably 5 billion jomillion jo they didn't feel they'd have

the interference. >> i'm glad caroline said we're in economic calamity, four years after president obama took office finally someone on the left agrees that the the economic policies have been horrible, but the solution is not more unions. the solution is free markets. unions by definition are a monopoly. a monopoly is like a tax on businesses, if you want the economy to get even stronger, then get rid of all unions so the free market can operate and more people can become employed, not less. >> and we can pay them almost nothing. 'cause that's what happens without unions, we don't have living stages and reliance on government. >> and people get paid nothing without unions. what about the what, 83, 85% of people that are not in unions? they're getting paid something? >> they are paid 10 to 30% less and far less likely to have-- >> but they have jobs, caroline. look at the auto industry. >> but they're not living wages. >> until the industry went out

of business. >> that was actually-- >> unsustainability. >> ten less airlines, 70,000 less jobs, but by god well paid. i was on a flight and i don't think anybody said they were overpaid. >> brenda: thanks, guys. get ready to get fee'd up again. and starting tomorrow, it could cost you. and cavuto at the bottom of the hour, but first, stimulus checks, owners are going to inmates and washington won't slow the entitlements. can they at least slam the door on the fraud? . our first full team gathering! i wanted to call on a few people. ashley, ashley marshall... here. since we're often all on the move, ashley suggested we use fedex office to hold packages for us. great job. [ applause ] thank you. and on a protocol note, i'd like to talk to tim hill about his tendency to use all caps in emails. [ shouting ] oh i'm sorry guys. ah sometimes the caps lock gets stuck on my keyboard. hey do you wanna get a drink later?

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>> hi, we are live from america's news headquarters, i'm jamie colby. right now washington is on high alert. new evidence showing that north korea may be ready to carry out the threat to conduct a nuclear test. these are brand new satellite images into fox. officials say it's the site where nuclear tests have been

conducted before and the images show trucks moving around and tunnels being sealed. all of it happening within the past month. american researchers believe that north korea may set off a nuclear bomb inside the mountain soon. we'll keep you posted. and a storm across the country and a powerful new storm making its way to the southeast, and plains. sub-zero temperatures and making for bad road conditions. be careful out there. more headlines 30 minutes away. now, back to bulls and bears. >> brenda: okay, so this will get your heart rate racing. a new government report revealing medicare dishing out more than 120 merchandise worth of medical services to inmates and illegal immigrants. and with lawmakers still not cutting entitlements to save taxpayers cash, toby, you say

at least stop this fraud. >> of course, brenda. if it's 120 million that they found and multiply by 100 because that's going on. look it, the fed ex guy who comes to your door has more technology in his hand than we have for medicare fraud. what we're having here is a disaster of epic, calamitous proportions, thank you very much, because we could be saving 120, 150 billion, with a b, if we followed fraud the way they do at the private sector. private sector, fraud is about 1% of medical plans. in medicare, medicaid and the federal system up to 10 or 12%, they don't know, know way to measure it. this is the classic example where we have 1990's technology could save this money and the government is twiddling their thumbs. >> caroline, this is a drop in the bucket of the whole medicare annual budget, but you've got to start somewhere, don't you? >> i would agree, but toby, we

did just put in a 77 million dollar system and that's why we caught this. this is a new type of fraud. so i'm a little more optimistic and i want to complicate it a little bit because when you're talking undocumented workers, we actually make $80,000 on average per worker because two-thirds of the 12 million undocumented workers, 8 million of them pay medicare, social security, and they pay income taxes, and don't get that back. >> that doesn't mean that they should necessarily get illegal benefits. >> i'm not making that argument, but making the argument at that we're not losing that money in fraud, we're actually making money off of it. >> what do you think of that business model as toby said? >> it's the silliest i've ever heard. somehow, illegals have contributed enough that fraud is okay? come on, give me a freakin' break. and these guys aren't dealing with entitlements at all. we have 2.4 trillion dollars in mandatory spending every year, medicare, medicaid, social security, welfare,

interest on the debt and we have the revenue we bring in every year and we could cut the entire military, entire pentagon and not pay one dime of federal anything and still lose money. we have to deal with these entitlements. with the fraud, with the entitlements as a whole, but no one in d.c. is willing to do that. no one, it's pathetic. >> brenda: gary b, that's the question here, what incentives do the people have who are running this program have to get in and cut this fraud? >> exactly, brenda. look, fraud goes on in private sector, public sector, but here is the problem. in private sector, if so much fraud and thiefery goes on and the taxpayer, and you point out the core problem. in the public sector, there's he no incentive for fraud to go away. people are paid on a bottom line, don't lose their dime if there's more fraud. the only incentive for the bubble sector, if you're a medicare or medicaid

government employee is to grow your power base. make it even bigger. that's why, toby is right, it's probably a factor of 10 to 20, to maybe 50. how much fraud is actually going on. probably in the billions of dollars. no one is losing their job, because the pie is big, i don't have a profit and loss statement to respond to, who cares? i'll grow it and say my gosh, we need more technology out there. >> jonas, you weigh in here. >> i don't know how little fraud there is in the private sector, either. and taxpayers don't have to pay for it like the government fraud, but every time you go to a store you're paying a slippery premium for stuff stolen from the company. and they try to fight it, it it goes on and a lot insurance pass it on in-- >> and people should have the health care, you're losing me? >> you're acting like it only affects taxpayers when there's fraud. and in consumers in the

private sector and we like having insurance and-- >> jonas, you have to have apples and apples. private health care system has rehe duesed their fraud to less than 1% they measure because it goes against the bottom line. the public health care, 10%, maybe 15, can't measure it and we have systems we could start on monday and push a button and three companies that could prevent-- >> i don't know if you've been to a hospital or doctor's office, they're using '90s technology anyway and up on post-its, it's not that high-tech at the doctor's office. >> i believe the segment is on fraud, okay, not on-- >> a lot of medicare uses the private sector, it's not like it's a bunch of government bureaucrats with paper work and. >> in those, the fraud is 2%. >> jonas, in the private sector companies do suffer. remember audi, a few years ago, you know, the gas pedal that supposedly wouldn't go

down. their sales suffered. food lion many years ago accused of selling tainted beef or something like that, they suffered. in this case medicaid or medicare don't suffer, they grow bigger, it's the taxpayer at the expense there. >> brenda: i'm sorry, that's the last word there, sorry, guys. the next bite in the pipeline, the keystone pipeline and some say we now have the key to unlocking the economy, but there's one catch. this is america.

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>> coming up, why the federal green light to the keystone pipeline could be the key to unlocking the economy. what's the holdup? apple shares are going to

>> from pipe dreams to near reality. nebraskaen republican governor

approving a key portion of the keystone xl oil pipeline that would go through his state and now a bipartisan group of lawmakers calling for the white house to make a quick approval. gary b, you say a no-brainer. >> i don't know why we're talking about this. it adds jobs, bring more natural resources into our country, it's already been proven to have almost zero environmental impact. this is a no-brainer and yet, the administration is still slow-walking this, i guess, for whatever crazy reason. they need to get off the dime and let the market operate. >> brenda: caroline, take him on. you say this is going to bring no jobs and a lot of environmental grief? >> yeah, i use the word calamity, and maybe i'll use-- we're talking 2 to 4,000 it temporary jobs from cornell university, increase the price of gas and decemberiesel, thee

the carbon food prints, tar sands versus regular extraction and the idea it won't cause environmental damage, defore-- deforesting. >> and all the states it would go through approved? >> number one, it's not just this pipeline. by getting this pipeline approved we now start the wheels for the 12 other pipelines that we need because if we get those pipelines built we will be larger exporter of oil than saudi arabia, number two, if you look at the pipeline disasters we've had and all of them, they do happen, they have not amount today an absolutely hill of beans. this technology is built in the 21st century now, the pipelines we've had problems with were built in the 19th century, could be 5 million, 6 million jobs.

>> brenda: john, do you agree good for the economy? >> yes, look good for the economy and look at gary b. this is beyond stupid. there are 25,000, professor, listen to this, 25,000 miles of pipeline right now that go across that carry all-time hazardous materials, fossil fuels and talking 250 miles we're adding to that. and to say all of that oil is coming down to our refineries is not going to add jobs, that's insane. >> brenda: told on a minute and-- >> okay, hold on, jonas-- >> look, it's a pipeline, it's not-- the whole idea is an efficient way to move stuff. and say truck the oil to the gulf, stupid way to do it it, but create more jobs. dirty canadian oil is not good for the environment to get it out of the tar pits, however, we can't stop it from leaving the tar sands. what's the most energy

efficient and sound, that oil trucked to china, their refineries are probably ten times dirtier than our refineries. >> brenda: we've got to go. and thanks to everybody and caroline for joining us. coming up, forget that no budget, no pay plan that could delay lawmakers paychecks. get the name that can balance d.c.'s books and pay you at the same time. my bad. tell me you have good insurance. yup, i've got... [ voice of dennis ] ...allstate. really? i was afraid you'd have some cut-rate policy. nope, i've got... [ voice of dennis ] the allstate value plan. it's their most affordable car insurance -- and you still get an allstate agent. i too have... [ voice of dennis ] allstate. [ normal voice ] same agent and everything. it's like we're connected. no we're not. yeah, we are. no, we're not. ♪ ask an allstate agent about the value plan. are you in good hands?