>> geraldo: thanks for tuning us in tonight. i'm geraldo rivera reporting. first up is crime time in prime time alert. the extraordinary capital murder trial of jodi arias taking a weird turn this week when the jury is allowed to ask their own questions of the 32-year-old woman accused of murder facing the death penalty for the savage crime for the murder of her boyfriend after a day it of raunchy sex. before we ask gloria ail led and station in, it is clear the jury has serious problems with the testimony they have been hearing for the last three weeks. >> how is it that you you remember so many of your is sexual encounters including

your ex-boyfriends but you do not remember stabbing travis and dragging his body? >> geraldo: like the rest of the world the jury questioned the highly selective memory of the accused. sex no problem, jodi remembers everything. but the details of the homicide itself, not so much. >> as far as what happened on june 4 i don't know how the mind works necessarily but i know that was the most traumatic experience of my life. >> geraldo: she testifies she did remember what her allegedly abusive boyfriend was doing to her at the time she killed him. >> it started where travis was in the shower are. i was right outside the shower a few feet. i was taking photos of him, facing him in the shower. we tried a few different positions and then at one point we were deleting and i went to move again and shift and face

him and the camera slipped. at that point he got very angry and he stepped out of the shower. he lifted me up from the crouched position and came off the ground momentarily and body slammed me and began running that way my initial intent to probably run out the door. i instead went for the gun and grabbed the gun. i just wanted him to stop so i pointed the gun at him hoping that would make him halt and it didn't. instead he lunged at me right around the time that the gun went off. and i didn't mean for it to go off. >> geraldo: when a juror asked, jodi claims that she killed travis out of of fear, not anger. >> were you mad at travis while you were stabbing him? >> i don't remember being angry that day. i remember being terrified. >> geraldo: if she did it to protect herself, how does jodi explain her actions after the fact?

>> why didn't you call 911? >> i was scared of what would happen to me. of what would -- i was scared at that point of what was going to happen. i knew that -- well, i felt that i had done something wrong and i don't have really an adequate ex-explanation for my state of mind following that. i just knew that something bad happened and i was squared. >> geraldo: has jodi generated enough sympathy to safe her own life? was she so frightened she could shoot him in the head and stab him 30 times and drag his body into the shower where it would not be found for five days? reporter shanna has been in the courtroom throughout the testimony. i don't it know if you ever -- welcome, shanna. >> thank you you. >> geraldo: i don't know if you have been in a courtroom where the jury was asking questions

through the judge. that is kind of weird to me. i have never it seen it. generally speak the questions harsh. do they indicate to you that the jury doesn't believe her? >> absolutely. the jury is not convinced and we can tell by the questions. questions we all want the answers to and we are not getting satisfactory answers in court. she can talk for 72 hours about every detail of her life but the most important memory she says she has no memory of it. the questions showed i think they were frustrated by that and what the sen is tense is going to be. >> geraldo: you you have been in court throughout this. i'm asking you not as a reporter but just as a person. sitting close to this 32-year-old woman. frail, small woman. here she is facing the death penalty. do you have any sense that this jury feels so bitter toward her that they would condemn her to die? or is it more logical to assume it is like the stock home

syndrome you have been in that room with this little all the time you have sympathy for them. >> it is hard to sit by this person and realize that her life may be taken away and not feel some sort of sympathy for her and you hear the stories on the stand and talking about being sexually used and it is disheartening. but the jury has also seen the autopsy photos and that is hard to come to terms with, too. you see her hands and realize these are the hands that did that terrible act. i don't know that the jury might have had sympathy in the beginning but when she got to the point she was talking about him and painting him as a pedophile if the jury doesn't believe that they will come back with a lot of anger towards her for that. >> tana, thanshanshanna, thanky

much. seems to me as the lawyer, tacking not as the lawyer but you as a man it would be barbaric to sentence her to death. >> interesting you you say as a man because most of the people on the jury are in fact men. interesting to see there might be a difference what men might feel or women might feel given what she has done. three different stories. numerous lies. first are she didn't do it. she wasn't there. then she was there but it was intruders who did it and then, yes, she did it but it was self-defense. i think the jurors are asking such insightful questions. i for one never predict what a jury will do but i think they are trying to find out what happened here and what the explanations are. whether they are buying it we'll have to see. it is hard to see how she would be successful with a self-defense defense. that is the reason she is testifying. she is the only one who can present that defense through

her own testimony. whether or not they will give her the death penalty if they convict her. that remains to be seen. >> geraldo: stacey, you are first up next is segment. why do so many of the jury's questions in the extraordinary exchange between the jury and the accused why do so many of the questions concern jodi's sex life?

license and registration please. what's this? uhh, it's my geico insurance id card, sir. it's digital, uh, pretty cool right? maybe. you know why i pulled you over today? because i'm a pig driving a convertible?

tail light's out.. fix it. digital insurance id cards. just a click away with the geico mobile app. got you ! you cannot escape the rebel forces ! ahhh. got you ! got ya ! gotcha ! got .

that's all you got, brother ? take that. never having to surrender the things that matter. gotcha. that's powerful. verizon. >> i want to give awe heads up at the bottom of this hour katie will be joining us the young woman kidnapped at the age of 9 and held in an under ground bunker by a pervert. we will have katie's story. >> the owner of the diamond ring is reaping the rewards of his

good deed. the favorite general the man we call america's spark. continuing with jodi air bass. three weeks my goodness. it's not over yet so it will be 4 weeks at least of testimony. maybe more. she has spoken about everything from her abusive childhood to her launchy sex life to her contention that because travisal gender she kill the him. one of the things is interesting not only how many of the jurors questions concern not only murder but sex. >> sex is one of the reasons why you drought kj discomfort is a little bit better. it makes them more enjoy tbl. >> despite the glory details of the crime the jury questions often revolve around jodi and

trav jis as' and the highly charged phone-sex. oo >> the jury asked and looking at the nude shots at the took of each other. asking about travis' alleged sup super hero fetish. >> trav sis stated on the phone next conversation he did not like spider-man. why did he buy the spider-man underwear if he did not like the character? >> i don't know why but prior to -- the child he was close with who really liked spider-man. i don't know if it had anything to do with it. he was very much like spider-man. he would dress up as spider-man.

>> they asked him about his desires. >> if you were scared of what he was doing why would you ever let him tie you up? >> when that occurred he was in a very good mood and he wasn't displaying any agitation. that was the travis that i liked and was not afraid of. again, they were lose enough to wiggle out of. >> why would you continue to stay with someone who had sex with you while you were sleeping? >> at that point that would have been may 2007 i was in love with travis. i knew i was in love with him, it didn't make a difference honestly. i was in love with him. >> they asked about travis' addiction to child pornography. >> you said it made you sick to see him with child pictures why did you sleep with him a few

mime times? >> after throwing up i wanted to talk to him and give him a chance to explain what was going on. we ended up getting together later on and he gave me a tearful explanation. i felt more sympathetic toward him than disgusted at that point because of how he explained it to me. >> continuing with civil rights attorney gloria allred and ladies so glad you are here. stacy, i want to give you a chance to answer the question i asked gloria in the first segment about the stockholm syndrome the fact that they had been so close to this frail young lady attractive young lady for so long. how can they now rule to take her life? >> i think a lot of defense attorneys will tell you the longer she stays on the stand the more of ap bo bond she is

making. i say the opposite. if you remember how she spoke on direct exam verses cross examination and the amount of lies she keeps getting caught in. i don't think the fact that she has been sitting there all of the time. if they convict her of first degree fur examiner der>> i think that's really important. so many of the questions with the conversion and all of the rest of it. this is preposterous, the story makes no sense. they want to know if he degraded you and you hated sex there's no mind control he didn't force you you drove to to be with him. he had all of these horrible straits. what is dhoo they are seaing the

story is guff unglooefable >> ear thoo other than her test travis looking at boys and masturbating to the photos of boys, there is absolutely no evidence that he did that. so it was interesting that the juries asked, well you have lied so many times why should de leave tick your testimony now in this courtroom. a sense to why she was lying before. that's a hard one. she was ashamed of what did he it. i can see you he was aggressive sexual 4ri. what's the line between aggression and abuse. she was frightened did what she thought she had to do.

she wouldn't have stabbed him 27 times if she wasn't worried he would come back to life and kill her. >> she is crying for a battered wounds defense. you are right about ithat. >> if you look at the sex -- >> where is the victimization. she is engaging and picture faking to see if they were watching the program. there will be a lot of gyms going going on was being abusive in the bedroom. but it sounds like she was a willing participant and not being used. >> fine line you can describe on the other side of the line that divide us from the commercial.

up next can she beat the death penalty. in the exclusive kidnapped pur in the exclusive kidnapped pur rive and her onnest tee [ male announcer ] it's simple physics... a body at rest tends to stay at rest... while a body in motion tends to stay in motion. staying active can actually ease arthritis symptoms. but if you have arthritis, staying active can be difficult. prescription celebrex can help relieve arthritis pain so your body can stay in motion. because just one 200mg celebrex a day can provide 24 hour relief for many with arthritis pain and inflammation. plus, in clinical studies, celebrex is proven to improve daily physical function so moving is easier. celebrex can be taken with or without food. and it's not a narcotic. you and your doctor should balance the benefits with the risks. all prescription nsaids, like celebrex, ibuprofen, naproxen and meloxicam have the same cardiovascular warning.

they all may increase the chance of heart attack or stroke, which can lead to death. this chance increases if you have heart disease or risk factors such as high blood pressure or when nsaids are taken for long periods. nsaids, like celebrex, increase the chance of serious skin or allergic reactions or stomach and intestine problems, such as bleeding and ulcers, which can occur without warning and may cause death. patients also taking aspirin and the elderly are at increased risk for stomach bleeding and ulcers. don't take celebrex if you have bleeding in the stomach or intestine, or had an asthma attack, hives, other allergies to aspirin, nsaids or sulfonamides. get help right away if you have swelling of the face or throat, or trouble breathing. tell your doctor your medical history. and find an arthritis treatment for you. visit celebrex.com and ask your doctor about celebrex. for a body in motion. visit celebrex.com and ask new honey bunches of oatsex. greek yohere we go.ole grain. honey cornflakes and chunks of greek yogurt. i'm tasting both the yogurt and the honey at the same time. i'm like digging this yogurt thing. i feel healthy. new honey bunches of oats greek.

try mach3 sensitive. a closer shave in a single stroke, for less irritation, even on sensitive skin. ♪ llette mach3 sensitive. gillette. the best a man can get.

>> with her carefully crafted testimony it is obvious jody arias tried to create a scenario by creating her story of a victim with a sexual deviant prone to violence. is the jury selecting this? >> is it stress that makes her that way. >> what factors influence? >> usually when men are dreaming

at me or grilling me. >> the jurially skepticism is there. >> would you consider the event when vav sris spoke to you a event. >> it is not really clear he had a had his hands around my neck and. >> why did she block out other memories why are so many clear? >> you were talking about memory loss how is it possible you remember such details from those days if you had a foggy memory? >> in certain incidents such as the physical fine is krpain is criticalized in -- crystallizen my mind. there are journal entries that i made and help me remember i did this before i went to travis' house? in the end they see the why were

you told she the lies i have told in this case can be tied directly back to either protecting travis' reputation or my involvement in his death in any way. i was very ashamed. >> gloria allred and prosecutor stacy i just don't remember a case without any extenuating circumstances. the person of use byrned aren't they always gritty circumstances that invoke the death penalty? is it extremely rare when a woman is condemned to death? particularly in what is essentially a lover's quarrel?

>> first of all they are not saying it was any kind of lover's quarrel here. the second things is the facts in the case are heinous and approaches. put the fren sglik and couple it with every live she has been told. the big picture she has to justify who the jury in told blood. her experts are basing testimony on what she told them. now the prosecutor has chipped away and extracted all of these lies. >> whait a second. why are you saying in cold blood there was no gold food. he was in the deep of this exchange not cold blood. >> she said it is a crime of passion. the prosecutor is saying it

would be prewe h-med tated is a him dewitting home is not true. the tone of the questions make it clear they don't believe her. i don't think finding death in is this case is so outlandish. i think there's a strong possibility they could put her to get death. >> i don't believe that her testimony is this is a crime she should be acquitted and not so far at all. >> we haven't even talked about the cover up which is built afterwards some of the things she did when she left her house. admitting she through the gun out in the certificates ert some of course for the argument the prosecutor would take which is 25 dal ber as the same 25

caliber gun that was burglarized stolen from their grand hair rents. that was greep pre-meditation. it is not retrooefed by the defense. she knows drav sris and kathy went to haa and dead. the flowers for the grandmother -- >> i am shocked this two ladies vosed to gbutt the ladies to deathed. >> it was for the death penalty or not. >> i don't [ shapiro ] at legalzoom, you can take care of virtually all your imptant legal matters in just minutes.

protect youramily... and launch your dreams. at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side. love your passat! um. listen, gary. i bought the last one. nice try. says right here you can get one for $199 a month. you can't believe the lame-stream media, gary. they're all gone. maybe i'll get one. [ male announcer ] now everyone's going to want one. you can't have the same car as me, gary! i'm gettin' one. nope! [ male announcer ] volkswagen springtoberfest is here and there's no better time to get a passat. that's the power of german engineering. right now lease one of four volkswagen models for under $200 a month. visit vwdealer.com today. so i used my citi thankyou card to pick up some accessories. a new belt. some nylons. and what girl wouldn't need new shoes? and with all the points i've been earning, i was able to get us flight to our favorite climbing spot even on a holiday weekend. ♪ things are definitely looking up.

[ male announcer ] with no blackout dates, you can use your citi thankyou points to travel whenever you want. visit citi.com/thankyoucards to apply. to travel whenever you want. at od, whatever business you're in, that's the business we're in. with premium service like one of the best on-time delivery records and a low claims ratio, we do whatever it takes to make your business our business. od. helping the world keep promises.

log on to foxnews.com. me back . i didn't mean to leave quite such a cliff hanger there. gloria said she didn't know whether she would be sentenced to death or not. it would be first degree murder conviction. we cut you off just after you said i forget. >> like you set me up. h i predict they will give her the death penalty. i am saying it. >> we will come back and replay the clip when it happens. >> i don't think so. thank you stacy and gloria again. katie veers the long island 9-year-old what it was like to be held under ground by a pervert. >> john esposito the jail bound

pervert sex actually assaulted and held captive 9-year-old katie beers. >> it was a scene straight out of the silence of the lambs. this horror movie was played out in new york. >> you had to use a block and tackle to lift the slab of concrete and drop down a narrow shaft into a small room under ground six by seven. >> it began with her disappearance two-days before her 10th birthday. esposito claims to have taken her to an arcade when she was abducted by a stranger. >> notify someone there that can put her on -- (inaudible). >> the cops searched every where questioning every possible suspect including esposito even searching his house. >> i just want my daughter back.

please bring her back. >> but katie was literally right under their noses. esposito constructed a bunker under the house and kept katie locked away. she cried for help and once on a closed circuit monitor but they could not hear her plea. >> what happened to this girl is terrible. >> 17 days later with police closing in i say po zito finally surrendered and confessed. >> i have something to tell you. i know where katie is. in 93 katie was freed from her dungeon and one year later made a statement, katie made sure she would never see esposito again. >> i worry about being taken away. i worry someone might hurt me. john esposito should go to jail for as long as he can. >> how is it this wan auz

stressed with you by being this for a close family friend. we didn't real liefz glg -- realize he was building this under ground bunker until he put me in it. >> not to kidnap any other child but to kidnap you. >> that's what we were told he built it specifically for me. >> how did it happen? >> john abducted me. he brought me to his house on my -- the day that he was celebrating my birthday at my grandmother's house. it was like a chuck e cheese in the 9 0z. never made it up just went straight to his house after a few stops. i was playing a video game he had bought me. he came and pulled me up on his lap and then sexually assaulted me put his hand over my mouth

and told me he wasn't going to hurt me and carried me down stairs to his office. >> and then what? >> he's working on getting the book shelf out of the wall rolling up the carpet getting the concrete slab up i am towering under the death for most of the same tieing if somebody can break in their house. he through me into the closet where he conditiontinued to pul this blouse. >> how did you end up getting into the basement. he told me to get down. i said no i don't want to. finally he took me in dropped me down this rabbit hole almost. told me to start crawling. so i started crawling through the tunnel. somehow he maneuvered himself np front of meap unlocked the door to the duj go done gone /* dung.

>> describe it? >> very small room. it was 6 foot by 6 foot bite 7 there was a shelf on the wall with miscellaneous then on the far ride there was a suspended smaller box that was about 2 feet by 3 feet. >> like a coffin almost? >> yes. >> he kept you in there in the dark? >> only light in the small box was a small tv. >> it was connected? >> it was connected. i was always keeping an eye on the news. basically to make sure people were looking for me. >> why was he keeping you? >> he told me he abducted me to get me out of a quote-unquote custody dispute between my god mother and my biological mother.

that ended up being the reason why i was abducted at all. >> then he said he wanted to marry you? >> every day i would ask him new questions trying to manipulate. he would tell me i am not going to have enough work i will mary you anyway. i will teach you what you need it know. >> did he convince you of the absolute insanity? >> he told his lawyers where i was i told him i wasn't feeling well and told him i was. oh being on the house and questioning finely? >> what was the most terrifying moment during the long stay? >> the most scary part is not

knowing whether or not i will be released. >> he is still in prison 19, 20-years later. >> do you feel pity for him? loathing, hate tried? >> i don't feel pretty or loathe or hate them. i have no feelings toward him at all. >> how did you grow up so untouched by this. am i wrongly assuming things are okay? >> i am very much okay. i have to credit my recovery to the years of therapy that i went through. >> now, life is normal you have your own children? >> i am married i have two children coming up on 7 years of marriage. i have two beautiful children 3 and a half-year-old son and 19 month old daughter. >> will you tell your children what happened to you? >> eventually, yes, i want to

find out before they find out on their own. >> center in you they are doing the national center for missing turn to. >> who do you hope rauer relationship is? what is your purpose? >> hoping to give victims a voice. to know that from trauma any trauma you can recover with the direct court system and counseling i want people to know if you have gone through a trauma you need to speak up. >> up next the homeless man who is now worth tens of thousands of dollars not because he kept a diamond ring he found because he gave it back. gave it back. amer

try running four.ning a restaurant is hard,

fortunately we've got ink. it gives us 5x the rewards on our internet, phone charges and cable, plus at office supply stores. rewards we put right back into our business. this is the only thing we've ever wanted to do and ink helps us do it. make your mark with ink from chase. ♪ (train horn) vo: wherever our trains go, the economy comes to life. norfolk southern. one line, infinite possibilities. the people of bp made a commitment to the gulf., and every day since, we've worked hard to keep it.

today, the beaches and gulf are open for everyone to enjoy. we've shared what we've learned, so we can all produce energy more safely. bp's also committed to america. we support nearly two-hundred-fifty thousand jobs and invest more here than anywhere else. we're working to fuel america for generations to come. our commitment has never been stronger. polaris has what you wan legdary atvs led by the powerful sportsman 850 ho. value-minded side-by-sides featuring the new ranger 800 midsize. and full-size workhorses including the all-new, class-leading, 60-horsepower, ranger xp 900. polaris. hardest working, smoothest riding. huge rebates and low financing are available right now during the polaris xp sales event.

>> most of us have had the experience of losing something near and dear to us. the sense of relief when we find it or someone returns it to a good samaritan. when a penniless man returns a diamond ring that is something very special. here is craig's report. >> thank you. god bless you. >> for the better part of a decade bill reray harris lived d

on the street panhandling here kansas city missouri. a generous young woman emptied her change purse into the cup. >> sitting here like i am today. she walked up had a coin purse with her zipper on it. she unzipped it dumping all of the coins in it not knowing the ring was inside. >> bling. >> i reachd in my coin purse and i accidentally gave him along with some change my engagement ring. >> she was distracted after a busy day shopping getting her family ready for a road trip. >> probably an hour away from home when i realized it? >> what was your reaction? >> my reaction was turn around right now. we have to go back. >> billy ray noticed the ring in his cup but thought it was fake so he asked a jeweler about his found treasure. >> i will give you 4,000 dollars for it right now no questions

asked. my jaw dropped like the cartoon fox on road runner. >> my husband customized the ring it was custom made real spligs but i also didn't have it insured. >> a devil popped up on my shoulder take the money take the money. 4,000 dollars you are sleeping under a bridge. the angel is like don't do that. you know you stole that for that money. >> by the time sara returned billy ray was gone. >> i felt helpless. i didn't know what to do. sara returned the next day holding on to a sled of hope. billy ray was there in the spot in front of the theater. >> i got out quick and ran up to him i don't know if you remember me but i gave you something that is really precious to me. he said was it a ring. yes. he said i have it. >> billy returned the ring he kept hidden in a jacket where he sleeped under an over pass in

downtown kansas city. >> you gave him whatever money you had as a tip? >> i had $60 of cash in my wallet. i gave that to him. i felt like this isn't over. >> her husband start add donation fund on the give forward web site. never expected the response they got. >> i set it up knowing a few people might see it donate a few dollars that would be really cool. i was also going to use it to pay forward what i felt i knew him. each paycheck evidences going to p -- i was going to put a few bucks in it every paycheck. >> this is the site? >> give forward.com/billy ray. got a picture of him. how the numbers are doing all that kind of stuff. >> it's around 180,000 dollars. >> yeah. really a surprise. >> that's a pretty decent reward for being a good man and doing

what is right. >> shows you what the world is coming to. you return something that don't be long to you and then all of this. >> billy ray's story has been published around the world. as a result of the publicity he has been reunited with his brother and sister in texas. after 16 years they had given him up for dead. (indiscernible). so glad that he knows we are all well. >> it tells me someone higher up is in control of all of this. he tried to deliver a message and be given a plan. >> what's the message? >> people need to open their li

little character by themselves and try to do right. all of the time. >> billy ray ray. >> i haven't gotten any money yet. >> returning her engagement ring was not harris' first day back. after oakland raided football team. into this week losing his super bowl ring. billy ray found the ring trapped out the flayer and returned him for it. he was rewarded now people from around the globe are reporting billy ray with honor. >> i hope he uses the money to change his life going onward and upwards of better things. sara and her husband bill sara and her husband bill deserve high praise.(music thro)

why turbo? trust us. it's just better to be in front. the sonata turbo. from hyundai. got you ! you cannot escape the rebel forces ! ahhh. got you ! got ya ! gotcha ! got . that's all you got, brother ? take that. never having to surrender the things that matter. gotcha. that's powerful. verizon.

>> after getting mugged during his confirmation hearings they hope to get bet aernss from the obama administration about what's happening in benghazi. it may be no, sir tal gig in the good old days. secretary hagel dealing with allegations that afghans working with air has been special forces are involved in torture and other abusive behavior. to make that even more uncomfortable there have been two suicide attacks in afghanistan during his short stay there. neither attack threatened the secretary. a total of 19 were killed including a u.s. contractor.

ladies and gentlemen as much as we would love to put it all behind us the war in afghanistan goes on and yesterday one of the heros of that war was recognized by his grateful nation. it is yours cruelly by our number one soldiers. >> rumor has it you might run for senate in new jersey. i was born and raised in new jersey. i have qualifications. >> we are sending the campaign letter over to you. >> that's the big man himself. the army chief of staff having some kwun p with political music >> the man of the hour general

john and sworn in by vice. several prom innocent car core upon accident's incredible story. he also received his 4th star no serving officer has advanced so far so fast in decades. >> we havegeneral officer who s the war as a colonel and two wars not quite over you will leave can a 4 star general. one is he will never forget about the soldiers that he has led into combat. he will never forget about the sacrifice of the families. and he will be the one that will use the knowledge in order to help us shape the army as we go forward. >> john f. campbell are in the

air base. >> it's a great day. still a lot of work to do here. we remain committed. we welcome the news of osama bin laden staff. >> the 82nd airborne in kandahar. t as the two star we watched them assume command of the legendary 101 101st. it is in 2010. the next year 2011 general in honor of her husband third star. >> in record time. the 20, 101st airborne killed in combat. that awful year in afghanistan.

(inaudible) a lot of people forget we are still a nation at war. >> you are going to have your hands full. you are facing sequestration. you got another war that is not finished yet. you are going to take care of the families. how are you going to deal with this? >> it will be a tough road. we have great leadership. i look forward to the challenge. >> you are a great patriot. we love you. >> love you, too. >> general and mrs. campbell asked all of us to remember the families, returning warriors and with all of the politicians isn't it refreshing to see true patriots recognized and rewarded for their commitment to the country. while we are on the subject of courage, i have to say how very impressed i was this week by the stand taken by republican

senator rand paul despite the criticism thrown his way by lindh sea gram and john mccain. he made clarification of the drone policy was the best thing to come out of congress in years. no, i don't think this or any other president would ever use drones on the american people but blind faith in the executive not enough. it's important there are rules established for the use of this deadly technology. senators mccain and gram should know