a couple of issues now rattlinghe windows at the white house. what happened ne benghazi and this irs thing. >> and big questions tonight throughout the day today on fox news. thanks for joining us. >> "america live" starts right now. a pair of growing scandals threatening to envelope the white house at this hour. welcome to "america live." i'm megyn kelly. first, the irs admits now that it inappropriately targeted conservative groups for additional scrutiny during the 2012 elections but it happened long before that as well. we have since learned that its admissions don't come close to encapsulating what it did. bebegin with the benghazi terror attack that killed four americans including our ambassador on 9/11 of last year in benghazi, libya. over the past few days, reports surfaced the administration's talking points were changed over

and over again. steve hayes broke it first last week. and jonathan carl doubled down and wow, have things changed since then. the talking points originally offered by the caa were watered down significantly. completely changed them, to delete references to suspected ties between the ties and islamic militants, al qaeda groups to scrub the report of the cia's notation that it had warned of unrest and other attacks in the area prior to the 9/11-12 attack. critics accused the obama administration of being less than honest about this attack, in particular in the days and weeks right after it happened because, as you may recall, president obama was in a fight for his reelection at the time. moments ago, president obama addressed that criticism live. listen here. >> the whole issue of talking points, frankly, throughout this process has been a side show.

and the e-mails that you allude to were provided by us to congressional committees. they reviewed them several months ago, concluded that, in fact, there was nothing afoul in terms of the process that we had used. and suddenly three days ago, this gets spun up as if there's something new to the story. the whole thing defies logic and the fact that this keeps on getting churned out frankly has a lot to do with political motivations. >> in moments, we'll be joined by congress darrell issa. we chaired the hearing we watched on benghazi just last week. i will ask him about the president's comments. we begin with our chief washington correspondent, james rosen. james? >> reporter: good afternoon. president obama's account of

benghazi and how and why the issue has flared up to the point where it is consuming one of the most valuable commodities a president has, his time. his account omitted last wednesday's explosive house oversight contents and the talking points prepared by his top aides. the talking points delivered by susan rice on the 16th of september, five days after the attacks, oppressed a false narrative of the benghazi attacks. but president obama branded benghazi a terror event and dispatched to capitol hill on the 19th of the september. sworn testimony was provided that benghazi was a terror event. >> i have been very clear throughout that immediately after this event happened, we were not clear who exactly carried it out, how it had occurred, what the motivations were. it happened at the same time as

we had seen attacks on u.s. embassies in cairo as a consequence of this film. and nobody understood exactly what was taking place during the course of those first few days. >> reporter: but none of the president's statements in the first weeks after the benghazi attacks nor in the talking points delivered by ambassador rice matched the certainty that the cia exhibited in the first draft at talking points, wherein the agency said, quote, we do know that islamic extremists with ties to al qaeda participated in the attack, unquote. indeed, the white house press secretary indicated there was no such evidence. >> our initial information and that includes all information, we saw no evidence to back up claims by others that this was a preplanned or premeditated attack. >> reporter: we heard the president discuss this morning the contents of his presidential daily brief or pdb.

that could spark renewed calls for access to those, perhaps the most sensitive of classified executive branch documents. >> james, thauj. my next guest is demanding answers and wants to question under oath the two men who led the state department's investigation of the benghazi terror attack. he is california congress do i recall is-- darrell issa. what did you make of the president's remarks earlier this morning? >> only the president could tell us with a straight face there's never been any confusion. and from the beginning they said the right thing. he was doing that on behalf of the president. so the president can't have it both ways. he can't say that he's always been honest and then in fact have people such as ambassador stevens himself in real time as he's being attacked saying to his number two, greg, we're under attack or gregory hicks

himself telling the operations center is safe, within minutes that it's a terrorist attack and he knew from the get-go it was. as you go through the facts as they were, yes, in real time we knew this was an al qaeda-backed terrorist attack and everything else in between is simply revisionist history. >> because the president came out and said that no one understood what was happening in the first few days or when it was happening and you're challenging that here. i want to ask you about that sound bite we played in setting up james rosen where he says, we, the white house, were the ones who gave those e-mails that steve hayes got his hands on and john carl, to these congressional committees months ago and he omits to pronoun and says, and determined there was nothing afoul of the process we had used. he basically said, you in congress gave him a pass on these e-mails months ago.

>> this is an interesting story and it's a use of careful words. first of all, it's not committees as i understand it. it's committee. my committee didn't have those. it was delivered to the committee that has exclusive jurisdiction over covert activities as though there were secrets in there. they were told they could look at it but the agreement was it wouldn't go anywhere else. when they're looking at what did the cia know and when did they know it, you and i look at this unclassified information and we realize that it's just plain a cover-up. >> in the same statement, the president said -- he said, number one, five to six days after susan rice, he said -- by the way, her talking points pretty much match my presidential daily briefing and the two to three days after susan rice spoke, i specifically said it was an act of terrorism,

no pronoun there. he said, and specifically said it was an act of terrorism. but that's what matt olson says. he said, how could i be covering up something if i sent matt olson up to capitol hill to testify that it wasn't an act of terrorism? >> the president sent a letter to the president of libya when he didn't call it an attack when president of libya called it an attack. when you look at official correspondence from the president through the acting ambassador to the president of libya, which came out in our hearing and was testified to under oath, the words that are being used carefully -- like you just said, act of terror -- an act of terror is different than a terrorist attack. the truth is, if this was a terrorist attack, this has al qaeda at it, it came over the wall very quickly, attacked and killed two people and later two more hours later. ambassador stevens in real time told his number two while he was

being attacked, greg, we're under attack. there were preplanned attacks beforehand including blowing out a piece of the wall at this diplomatic facility in benghazi. that information was denied in real time to the american people. here's the real point and the one that our committee is trying to get to. there were three fundamental mistakes. they said they needed more security. they got less security they began being attacked and were attacked for more than seven hours. and we're to believe that no response could even be started that could have helped them seven hours later. quite frankly, you can take off from washington, d.c. on a commercial flight and practically be in benghazi by the end of seven hours. you certainly can take off from areas of the mediterranean and bring at least some support in less than seven hours. and lastly, the american people deserve realtime information and other state department assets deserve the same thing. there could have been a similar terrorist attack at another

embassy or consulate and they were not being prepared for what would have been a preplanned al qaeda attack. >> hillary clinton received she knew nothing about the lack of security, the requests that had been made for security and denied by her underlings. now the former vice president of the united states, dick cheney, has been pushing for you guys to subpoena here. we found out these two guy who is ran the review of the state department didn't think it was important to talk to the secretary of state. so no one who's responsible for that review talked to her. you guys had her testify on capitol hill before. but my question to you is, does she get subpoenaed now and is she -- what do you make of the fact that either she did know about the refusal of security or as she testified, she just had no idea about any of this and what does that lead us to conclude about our former secretary of state? >> i think she was disconnected, dispassionate even when she

called at 2:00 in the morning to the ambassador in libya, she never asked what he knew about the attack in her call. you have somebody who does the symbolism but doesn't do the substance or maybe, just maybe she knew. what we want to do is we want to get to who knew, when did they know and who at the highest level is responsible for bad judgment? and i think that's where undersecretary kennedy and other key lieutenants, these are not underlings, these are key lieutenants that this so-called nonpartisan report didn't seem to have any blame above low-ranking. we need to find out if high-ranking people, whether career or political, should be held accountable. that's what we're going to do using -- >> who, kennedy, mrs. clinton, who else do you want to testify before you? >> right now, we're going to be having interviews under oath with the two people that headed up the a.r.b.

we're going to get through the questions about what did they find out, how did they reach their conclusions? we're going to interview some of the same people that we have been denied up till now that the a.r.b. interviewed. but before we do public hearings on anyone's request, we're going to do the private research, the good questions, questions where somebody's given all the time they need to get the answer right, including bringing stacks of paper with them because that's the right way to do an investigation. >> last question, should the president release his presidential daily brief from the time prior to and around the time of benghazi? >> i think when the american people are told lies, the documents leading to those lies become -- his view and an opposing view as to what happened and how did we get misled. >> thanks for being here. >> thank you. >> we also heard from the president last hour reacting to reports that the irs is

targeting conservative groups today, calling it outrageous. up next, lou dobbs weighs in. you will not believe who we know they were now targeting. and both brothers may have been involved in another murder. just like you. i love my contractor, and i am so thankful to angie's list for bringing us together. angie's list -- reviews you can trust. [ crowd cheering ] [ male announcer ] for sensitive skin, there's fusion proglide. our micro thin blades are thinner than a surgeon's scalpel for our gentlest shave. switch to fusion proglide. gillte. the best a man can get.

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this is pretty straightforward. if in fact irs personnel engaged in the kind of practices that have been reported on and were intentionally targeting conservative groups, then that's outrageous. and there's no place for it. and they have to be held fully accountable because the irs as an independent agency requires absolute integrity and people have to have confidence that they're applying in a nonpartisan way. >> that was president obama last hour reacting to the irs'

admission after it was caught that it specifically targeted the tax status of conservative groups during the 2012 elections. but not just conservative groups. the news first broke on friday. we brought it to you here. we have since learned the irs' actions went much further than was originally first reported. an inspector general's report, they were working on this, examining the irs, and it was determined they had done some things. then came the sudden add milgs. they find this practice started back in early 2010 with the irs looking into tea party and patriot groups but that's not all. by june 2011, the list drastically expanded and now included groups that focused on government spending, government debt and taxes. if you're interested in one of those, your irs may have been targeting you for extra screening and scrutiny if you sought tax exempt status. lou dobbs is host of "lou dobbs tonight" on the fox business network.

they wanted extra scrutiny and information on groups whose goals included limiting government and educating on the constitution and bill of rights. anyone criticizing how the country is being run, anyone lobbying to, quote, make america a better place to live. so my question to you is, does the president understate it when he calls this, quote, outrageous? >> what is outrage is that the president of the united states this morning stands before the american people and lies through his teeth. that is what is outrageous. >> how did he lie? >> this president said, if we find out that they did these things. there is no "if." the president must have forgotten that the internal revenue service took the extraordinary step last week and admitted doing these things and apologized for doing these things and then this president, as if he's sitting at a dentist's chair and would have

great reluctance, says if they are found to have done these things, we will have to hold them accountable, as if that would not be his first, immediate and urgent action to take. this is a president who has lost his way. and the demeanor of this president in this press conference, angry and absolutely as intransigent in his viewpoint -- move along, there's nothing here. >> certainly on benghazi we saw this. >> and the internal revenue service as well. >> now they're saying the senior leadership at the irs, i didn't know anything about it. about hillary clinton, i didn't know anything about the extra security request for benghazi. is anybody minding the shop? seems like if you've got all these groups being targeted by the irs for extra scrutiny and you have our top diplomat begging for extra security in libya, somebody should be paying

attention. >> it goes beyond that, i think, megyn, far beyond that. this is far more serious than anything contemplated last week when it first broke. this is an agency with an enemy's list. this is a nixonian. this is a government that is out of control. >> but the irs is not tied to him yet. >> the irs is tied to him in the following way -- he is, in fact, responsible for the nomination and the actions of the internal revenue service as his former treasury secretary, timothy geithner. this is not an agency that exits as he puts it independently, the commissioner is appointed by the president of the united states, schulman. he and the rest of the administration have been talking about, he was appointed by george w. bush. schulman is a democrat and he served in the regulatory agency before that. >> schulman is the irs

commissioner and he testified on capitol hill on march 2nd, 2012, about this saying -- he did not acknowledge any of these. we have a small clip. >> can you give us assurances that the irs are not targeting political groups based on political leanings? >> absolutely not. this is the kind of back and forth that happens when people apply for 501-c4 status. >> absolutely. this happens to be the politicization that was against richard nixon in his impeachment. let there be no doubt, this is a extremely important charge being leveled against this administration, not only by republicans but democrats as well. and the president's performance today was, to be kind, disappointing on the part of a

sxha commander in chief. >> we're going to talk to a special prosecutor about irs in benghazi next hour. for the first time ever, dramatic pictures of the man in cleveland next. the great outdoors... ...and a great deal. thanks to dad. nope eeeeh... oh, guys let's leave the deals to hotels.com. ooh that one! nice.

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new details developing now in the case of three women in ohio who were rescued from a cleveland home last week after being held hostage for nearly a daek. look at this. the first time we're seeing the dramatic rescue as it unfolded. cell phone video showing police just as they managed to pry open the front door and rush inside. and this is what i wanted to show you. a brand-new snapshot of that same video. look at this. you see the turquoise blue pants. that's amanda berry and her first moment of freedom holding

her 6-year-old daughter, jocelyn. her first time outside in ten years. we were told she went out twice, maybe just in the garage over the ten-year period. can you imagine? and this little girl clutching her mother. garrett is live in cleveland with more. >> reporter: we've seen a lot more activity here at the home where the women were held, the home of ariel castro. police and the fbi are back here on the scene going into the home. they're knocking on doors, talking to neighbors. the medical examiner's office, they're here as well. i spoke with their office and they said, there are no bodies. but here's what they are doing. the county prosecutor wants them to photograph the crime scene using a camera that captures photos in 360 degrees, essentially rebuilding the crime scene. meanwhile, the future of ariel castro's home is under debate. some people in the community say it should be torn down. others even threatening to burn

the house down themselves. prosecutors certainly want the house to remain until after the criminal proceedings. that's why you can see the ten-foot-tall fence they've built surrounding the property. right now, we're waiting for the county prosecutor to bring that case to the grand jury that usually happens within 30 days. but considering everything involved in this case, it very well could take longer. megyn? >> garrett, thank you. when the accountability review board went looking for answers on the benghazi terror attack, they said they interviewed everyone involved. except we now know that's not true. ambassador john bolton next on the critical player who got a total pass and what we're supposed to do about that. and o.j. simpson is in a las vegas courtroom right now and the picture suggests the years in jail have not been kind. look at him. wow. his dramatic new bid for freedom just ahead. [ female announcer ] at jcpenney, we never stop being amazed by you.

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fox news alert, breaking news out of philadelphia where the jury declared earlier today that they were hung on two of the counts in the trial of an abortion doctor accused of killing one adult patient and four newborn babies. the judge just instructed the jury to continue deliberating. the doctor is facing more than 250 counts. so wh do we make of their

declaration that they're hung up on two? shannon joins us. >> reporter: day ten of deliberations. the jury told the judge they were stuck on the two charges, simply couldn't agree. when both attorneys arrived, they felt confident the jury was making progress. we didn't get any indication when the jury was back in the courtroom about which of the two charges they're stuck on. there were 250 against gosnell. the judge praised them for taking his time. there are five murder counts against gosnell. he told the jurors not to hesitate to re-examine their own views but counseled that no juror should give in just to come back with a verdict.

they may have already resolved the other counts. by the way, throughout this trial, the doctor has been very laid back in the courtroom, smiling, joking, laughing at times. his defense attorney has said he's confident he will not be convicted on any of the counts because the babies were not born outside alive. if he is convicted, he could face the death penalty. megyn? >> it's incredible how he's been laughing. wasn't there testimony that one of the babies was born -- was so large and kermit gosnell chuckled and said, he's so big, he could walk me to the bus stop or something to that effect? >> reporter: that's exactly what he said. he said, he could walk with me apparently he's maintained that flippant attitude throughout the trial. we'll see how it plays with the jurors. >> we'll wait and see what the juror makes of the allegations.

shannon, thank you. >> reporter: you got it. the whole thing defies logic and the fact that this keeps on getting churned out, frankly, has a lot to do with political motivations. we've had folks who have challenged hillary clinton's integrity, susan rice's integrity, mike mullen and tom beckering's integrity. it's a given that mine gets challenged by these same folks. they've used it for fund-raising. and, frankly, if anybody out there wants to actually focus on how we make sure something like this does not happen again, i am happy to get their advice and information and counsel. >> president obama a little hr than an hour ago defensively pushing back against new questions about the terror attack that killed four americans in benghazi, libya, last september.

joining me now, john bolton, former u.s. ambassador to the united nations and fox news contributor. what did you make of the president's comments earlier today? >> i think he's still trying to deny that we really did have a problem there. the notion that somehow or another that he was being direct and honest with the american people in the aftermath of the attack just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. nor does his policy beforehand stand up to scrutiny of what was going on in libya, what the threats were, what the danger our diplomats were in, all of which goes precisely to the point of why the investigation is necessary because we haven't had an adequate explanation about what happened before, during or after the attack yet. >> he doesn't seem to get why we don't get it. he doesn't seem to understand why we, the american people, in part -- not everyone -- but still have questions about in particular this story, this administration told us in the days after this attack when they sent the person who wound up in your old role, susan rice, on

the sunday talk shows to tell us this is about a spontaneous protest, period, and downplayed any notion of terror including when the leader of libya came on and said, i'm telling you, this is a terrorist attack. and now today in an extraordinary moment, president obama went out there and said, he talked about sending matt olson, the head of the counterterrorism center, out there and matt explained everything. listen to president obama here. >> and keep in mind that two to three days after susan rice appeared on the sunday shows using these talking points, which have been the source of all this controversy, i sent up the head of our national counterterrorism center, matt olson, up to capitol hill and specifically said, it was an act of terrorism and that extremist elements inside of libya had been involved in it.

so if this was some effort on our part to try to downplay what had happened or tamp it down, that would be a pretty odd thing. >> what the president just said about matt olson is flatly untrue. number one, he didn't send him to the hill. he was called to the hill. number two, he referred to it as an act of terrorism, not in his prepared testimony but in response to a question. and i remembered quite well, i'm sure others do, too, it was a firestorm on capitol hill because finally someone in the administration had said straight out this was an act of terrorism. so the president is either having -- being a little economical with the truth today or he still doesn't understand what the nature of the problem is. >> and that our own catherine herridge reported that he got his hand slapped for going that far, that he got his hand slapped for that, that this wasn't a congratulatory effort.

the president wants us to believe it was all orchestrated by him -- he must have forgotten to say it in his remarks but thankfully the president reminded him. >> before the entire world at the u.n., the president blamed it on the muhammad video. this is definitely is a creating rewriting of history. >> and he went on "the view" and said, is this an act of terror, and he said they didn't want to go that far. it's a little jarring to hear him express befuddlement and confusion at why the rest of us still have questions when we've been told so many different stories. and carney and the president continue to look at us and say, do you refuse to get it? is that your problem? even now we're seeing the mainstream media in the wake of the john carl report on friday which echoed steve hawes' reporting a week earlier, say,

there might be something here and we need investigations. where do we go from here? >> the congressional investigations have to continue, whether through the form of a select committee and the house of representatives -- >> what does that mean, select committee? >> it would bring together members from a lot of different house committees that have some claimed foreign oversight, foreign intelligence. speaker boehner needs to pick a select committee or decide and give somebody the lead, whether it's darrell issa or somebody else. we need to consolidate this. but this is going to take a long time to investigate. there are a lot of documents to review, a lot of e-mails, a lot of people to interviews. for those who said after the last hearing there's no smoking gun, don't wait around for the smoking gun. to mix metaphors, this is three yards and a cloud of dust. we need a lot of investigation and i think that is the only chance to get the whole story. >> why don't we see the presidential daily briefs or the e-mails that got leaked to steve

hayes and john carl? why can't we all see them? i want to ask you about these two guys who headed up the a.r.b., the accountability review board. hillary clinton selected them and said, investigate us and me. and now it's become very clear they did not interview her. and when asked why didn't you interview her, ambassador pickering said, because we knew where the responsibility rested. in other words, not with her. >> this is a red queen. they didn't bother with the trial. they'd made up their minds. i think the a.r.b. issue and the incompleteness of its report is a side show. i think as jim baker used to say, keep your eyes on the prize and the prize is not what people told the a.r.b. or what questions they did or didn't ask. they had a limited stature mandate. who really cares what they said? they don't know any more about

benghazi than what people told them. the congressional committee should talk to people who had actual knowledge. that's where the story is. >> we saw hillary clinton -- she didn't talk to the head of the a.r.b. but she gave testimony before congressened a it was a total waste of time. all we heard was congressional speeches. these lawmakers were pathetic. they didn't have pointed questions. she just got to give her soliloquy. there is very little back and forth. would it be a different story if they managed to subpoena her and get her to give additional testimony at this time? >> he's a private citizen. they should do with her what they did with gregory hicks and other witnesses, take her deposition, off camera, no grandstanding, just boring lawyers asking questions and insisting they get answers. and then when they've got her story, let her go out and testify. >> so many follow-up questions in the wake of these allegations. we are told, although we'll see, that there are other whistle-blowers who wanted to come forward, in particular in the cia -- >> they're scared.

they want to see how these three witnesses are treated. i think secretary of state kerry should say, i'm personally guaranteeing these three individuals, there will be no retaliation, he taught to say it on television with the three of them next to him it would be an important move to indicate to other officials that they are encouraged to come forward with the truth. >> the two big messages from secretary kerry on this circumstances number one, i didn't hear anything new last week with the whistle-blower testimony, and, i'm not going to spend the next year coming up on capitol hill and talking about benghazi. >> this dead cat is not yet on his doorstep. but if he persists, it will be. >> just like jay carney, benghazi was a long time ago. that wasn't the message we heard from the white house on friday when the mainstream media finally jumped on board. new developments in the boston marathon bombings investigation. up next, growing evidence now suggests that both of these brothers may be to blame for an unsolved triple murder from

2011. plus, nearly a dozen homes in northern california literally sinking into the ground. even more at risk but what's worse is investigators cannot explain why. >> anybody would be afraid up here. it's only because of the unknown. you don't know what's going to happen. does anybody really know yet? man: the charcoal went out already? ... forget it. vo: there's more barbeque time in every bag of kingsford original charcoal. kingsford. slow down and grill.

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new developments in the boston marathon bombing as there is growing evidence today suggesting the suspects, tamerlan and dzhokhar tsarnaev, may have killed long before last month's deadly attack. this case now centers on a brutal murder back in 2011. tamerlan friend and two others were killed inside of a boston area apartment. police say the victims' throats were slashed and marijuana was found shrink sprinkled all over their bodies. investigators are now questioning dzhokhar about those murders after placing both tsarnaev brothers near the crime scene. michael is an investigative reporter for "the boston globe" and joins us with the latest. what is the evidence linking these two tsarnaev brothers to this triple murder? >> reporter: well, right now, there's a lot of speculation about what the forensic evidence might be. what i can tell you is that police are stepping up their investigation and taking another

look at this case because formerly it was generally believed these three individuals were killed on september 12th. it's pretty clear they were all murdered on september 11st, the tenth anniversary of the attack on the world trade center and the pentagon. also, it's very well known that tamerlan tsarnaev was best friends with brendan mess, he introduced him that way at a gym where they both worked out, practicing mixed martial arts. it's known that tamerlan was a regular visitor to the apartment where the triple homicide occurred. it's also pretty clear that whoever murdered these three individuals have to be very strong and familiar to the vicks. we know tamerlan was quite strong. we know he was an accomplished amateur boxer, mixed martial arts fighter. we believe the person who committed the murders had to be

very strong and perhaps operating with someone else because all three of the victims were very capable of taking care of themselves. as i said, one of the individuals who is a martial arts instructor, another, a physical trainer. all three of these guys were young, strong guys and yet they were overcome, overpowered and murdered without a single shot being fired. >> they say it was around 9:00 p.m. in the evening. it's not like they were asleep in their beds. abc news is reporting some crime scene forensic evidence provided a match to both of the tsarnaev brothers. has that been confirmed and did we have any reason to believe that dzhokhar tsarnaev, the younger, had any relationship or friendship with these three guys? >> reporter: well,s that has not been confirmed, to my knowledge. and i don't think that the younger tsarnaev brother had a specific relationship with any of the three people who were murdered. but that doesn't mean his

brother didn't bring him along. for that particular purpose -- >> that's my point. >> reporter: yeah. exactly. tamerlan, if he is the murderer, would have needed help. it's hard to imagine one person -- >> i have 30 seconds and i have to go. the sprinkling of the marijuana over the bodies, could this have been some sort of -- tamerlan radicalized, was against drugs. dzhokhar was said to be a pothead. am i too far out on a limb here? >> reporter: it is clear that there was a message here. it's a little hard to discern precisely what the message was. but a message was intended to be left. >> it's incredible, as they call it mounting evidence against these two guys in connection with this other triple murder. thank you, michael. >> reporter: sure. just ahead, the number two

guy in the lewinsky investigation joins us to talk benghazi, irs and new calls for a special prosecutor. and up next, mother nature punishes two neighborhoods without warning. if you haven't seen this tape, do not go away. it's next. that's why there's glucerna hunger smart shakes. they have carb steady, with carbs that digest slowly to help minimize blood sugar spikes. [ male announcer ] glucerna hunger smart. a smart way to help manage hunger and diabetes.

incredible video of strange events plaguing two different neighborhoods. in minnesota strong winds pushing sheets of ice from a lake onto the shore and right up to people's doorsteps. and a california community is in ruins after the ground opens up underneath it. >> reporter: let's begin in northern california. in lake county, the ground is literally falling beneath these homes about 100 miles north of san francisco. and look at this right here. first, the residents of this

27-home subdivision noticed they had cracked in their walls, the cracks became fractures and all of a sudden the ground began sinking. this ground goes down gradually, two feet one day, two inches the next, about a dozen homes so far destroyed and many others on the edge. listen. >> anybody would be afraid up here. it's only because of the unknown. you don't know what's going to happen. i'm told i'm safe. i assume i'm safe. but does anybody really know yet? >> reporter: yeah, authorities think it might be water kind of bubbling up to the surface but they really don't know exactly what's causing this. take a look at what's happening in northern minnesota. did you ever see the movie "the blob," the slime crawls over the city. this is the ice version of it. some call it an ice tsunami. if you listen, you can hear it crawl and crack, overrunning these homes. listen closer to the woman who's taping this clip.

>> it's plowing over that bush. >> reporter: it goes right through that sliding glass door and into these houses. it's just amazing video. and look at in canada. in canada, they're trying to fight the ice with bulldozers trying to push the stuff back. very tough task. too warm, too fast is what calls it. >> thank you. >> reporter: sure. coming up, two growing scandals pose new threats to the credibility of this administration as the president takes heat over the benghazi probe and the iris, specifically targeting folks who like limited government and love america. i don't make any decisions about who to hire without going to angie's list first.

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fox news alert on two growing scandals posing new threats to the credibility of some in this administration. welcome to a brand-new hour here of "america live." i'm megyn kelly. at a joint news conference with the british prime minister david cameron, president obama faced new questions on his handling of benghazi and the terror attacks that took place there on 9/11 of last year. a defiant president obama calling the investigation a sideshow. he also took questions on the irs after that agency was forced to admit that it has targeted conservative groups, yes, but also those who believe in limited government and loving america and making america a better place, all targeted in

the run-up to the 2012 election. >> can you give us assurances the irs is not targeting particular groups based on political leanings? >> there's absolutely no targeting. this is the kind of back and forth that happens when people apply for 501-4c status. >> that wasn't president obama but the former commissioner of the irs testifying a few months ago that there's been no targeting, we don't doe that based on politics. as it turns out, chris stirewalt is here with us. not only did they target conservative groups, they targeted people whose goals included limiting government, state jaiting on the constitution and the bill of rights who had in their name, tea party, and whose lobbying mission was to, quote, make

america a better place to live. so president obama came out today and said, if that's true, it's outrageous. and there was no place else for him to go on that, was there, chris? >> no. what would you say? what would you say, that the government agency that sought to undo and damage my political opponents, that was a good move, i really like that? he did the right thing on that. i don't mean that in terms of morally right, i mean in terms of how do you deal with scandal -- when you deal with a scandal, you're the guy -- when you're busted, you blew the whistle on yourself to try to get out in front of congressional republicans dragging you through it, you say, this happened, this was wrong and now a whole bunch of people are going to have to get fired -- >> let me ask you this -- democrats and republicans are both saying this is insane, it's outrageous. you can't have this in modern-day america.

this isn't eastern europe, east germany back in the day. but i want to ask you -- because then the president said, i learned about it from news reports just like all of you on friday. really? how could it be that jay seculo knew about it but the president didn't know about it, that there was a treasury inspector general report that was going to attribute responsibility to the irs for this and the president didn't know anything about this? is that credible? >> he could have been insulated. they are by their staffs, that things that would be inconvenient for a president to know about or kept from him. not helpful when a guy says, i'm reelected but i'm no lame duck. if he's being looped out on things like his own political opponents being targeted by his administration, well, that would tend to say that there's a problem somewhere but i suppose it's possible.

>> now we have -- it's so awful, so awful. but david plouffe, senior adviser to the president, sends out this tweet on the irs matter that reads, what irs did, dumb and wrong, important to note, gop groups flourished last two elections, overwhelming d dz, meaning democrats, and they will use this to raise more money. and ron foreinier tweeted back, why is that important to note about -- he writes, is that justification for the action you just called wrong? >> and that's the problem. the problem here in all of this is that if you are operating from a hyperpolitical universe -- being president and being a candidate is very hard. being president and being a politician is very hard. but what you see from plouffe there is the ends justifying the means that it's, don't worry about this, it's all just a numbers cagame, it's all very

cynical. and you saw it on the benghazi situation where the president's administration is being accused of seeking explanations to difficult, painful things to turn around and say, you're playing politics, too. the answer being, it doesn't count. it doesn't count if everybody's playing politics. we're going to urge americans to accept the cynical, fallen nature of their government and their political system. >> but this benghazi thing has seen a shift. since it emerged, those talking points were absolutely altered with state department input and white house input, something they had tried to suggest was not true and now it's very clear it is true. and now jay carney's admitted, as he had to, that there was all that state department input and white house input, he admitted it on friday, this has changed. people now know that we were not given the full truth as we were told all along. and yet the president's defense on that today -- keep in mind, they said, talking points, white

house, they would change one word, consulate to diplomat post or facility. that's it. that's the only change we made. then they got hammered by the press on friday. wrong, wrong, wrong. we have the e-mails saying, change this, this is unacceptable and change this again and take out al qaeda and the prior warnings about terrorist activity. we see all that. the defense now seems to be, those e-mails, we gave those to congress months ago and they didn't do anything to us. so there's no story here. you and the media, who are just now learning about this and you, the american people's spokespeople -- we're out there to help the people find out what the truth is. >> the e-mails you allude to were provided by us to congressional committees. they reviewed them several months ago, concluded that in fact there was nothing afoul in terms of the process that we had

used. and suddenly three days ago, this gets spun up as if there's something new to the story. there's no there there. >> yeah, that's not the way to do that. that's not how you're supposed to do that. not supposed to say, there's no there there. whatever. the truth of the matter is what the president is basically saying is the republicans didn't leak these sooner, they couldn't have been that big of a deal. that's not the kind of rationale that's going to work in this case. he needed to borrow the same approach that he used with the irs and say this, look, i'm going to find out who's responsible for this, i'm going to get to the bottom of this, this is not acceptable, this goes against what i wanted to happen. >> he can't. >> and justice will be served. >> how can he do that? >> he can't. >> when jay carney's on record months ago saying, we made one change, consulate and diplomatic

facility. and now steve hayes and john carl have seen the e-mails and told us all that the state department and the white house were heavily involved in changing far more than one word and they were substantive revisions which we were also told was not true. he can't. >> he can't. >> he didn't do what you just said because that would be a greater sacrifice of his credibility. >> because he and hillary clinton stood in front of those caskets and he and hillary clinton did that. they carried forward that message after -- it is clear that we now know that this was not what they described. and they did that. the president is say it's all playing politics basically saying, i was playing politics, they were playing politics. i won the election. what does it matter at this point? the matters is the president's made a repeated argument again and again that the american people can trust the government -- >> and that he was telling us everything? >> yes, that you can trust me and you can trust the government to do what's right. and when that doesn't happen, it blows the bottom out of his

argument and it, quite frankly, gives reason for people to say, you know what, this whole second-term agenda thing, all this stuff you're working on, i'm going to take a pass. >> he told us that everything we've learned as we knew it, we released it, when we learned new information, we released that and those e-mails just tell a different story on that front. you can argue about the initial cia talking points did refer to spontaneous demonstrations inspired by what we saw in cairo which was linked in part to a video. so you can see, okay, maybe they've got some argument on that. but in the next breath, they're taking out all the references to sharia, they don't want references to al qaeda groups. they wanted it out of there that terror attacks had been taking place. and now the president wants us to believe that, i said it was terror all along. and those of us who lived it saw that evolve in a much different

way. and there's just a thirst for just honesty about why, why, why did that happen? was it a political play? was it not? was it something else? i don't know that we still have answers to that, chris. e last final word. >> when you claim to say you were above and beyond all of this, above reproach and you are found not to be that, it does much more damage to one's credibility than it does if a politician holds along that he's a bit of a scant but sometimes you have to break a few eggs. the president held himself up to a much higher stand. now that makes this stuff look even worse. >> thank you, chris. >> you bet. coming up, we saw an epic moment in the white house briefings on friday afternoon when white house press secretary jay carney took a beating in

dudsens of back-to-back questions on benghazi. it happened around 3:30 in the afternoon if you weren't watching. just ahead, we'll look for what explains the sudden change of heart in the mainstream media's search for answers on the terrorist attack against this country and what we can expect next. new developments in the shocking arrest of an 8-year-old girl. police launched a massive manhunt sending the entire community into lockdown after she was found stabbed to death inside her home. the facts did not add up. the investigation leading police to a dreadful conclusion and the stunning arrest of a suspect who was under their nose the whole time. the little girl's 12-year-old brother. claudia is live in san francisco. claudia? >> reporter: investigators will only say that dna testing on evidence taken from laila's home has yielded a positive result. the april 27th murder left the small rural community on edge as

many residents feared a knife-wielding killer was on the loose. the brother said he saw a latino man leaving their home. but they recanted the story and no one else came forward. there were no signs of a break-in or a robbery. and this past saturday, authorities made the arrest. we don't know what any of the evidence could include, but looking forward, some legal experts say the boy's defense could be focusesing on his mental state and whether he knows right from wrong. if authorities have the right suspect, it is a double tragedy for this family. the fowlers have not spoken publicly since appearing at a individual three days after the girl was murdered. we are blurred pictures of the suspect because he is a minor. up with resident told "the l.a. times" he questioned this boy's story all along and others apparently told their children to stay away from him. megyn, it's unclear where lay

will's brother is being held or when he will be arraigned but he will be charged with homicide. >> claudia, thank you. just ahead, the number two guy in the lewinsky investigation joins us to talk about benghazi and irs and calls for a special prosecutor next. you've known? we gave people a sticker and had them show us. we learned a lot of us have known someone who's lived well into their 90s. and that's a great thing. but even though we're living longer, one thing that hasn't changed much is the official retirement age. ♪ the question is how do you make sure you have the money you need to enjoy all of these years. ♪ and i have a massive heart attack right in my driveway. the doctor put me on a bayer aspirin regimen. [ male announcer ] be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. go talk to your doctor. you're not indestructible anymore.

this is pretty straightforward. if in fact irs personnel engaged in the kind of practices that have been reported on and were intentionally targeting conservative groups, then that's outrageous. and there's no place for it. >> that was president obama today reacting to a growing scandal gripping washington, d.c. and the nation. the irs now apologizing for targeting conservatives and other groups in what many consider political profiling, although the irs denies that politics were behind its decision to do this. but is an apology enough and do we really need a special

prosecutor to now look into this and how high it went, especially when we have the irs commissioner testifying this way back in march of 2012 -- >> can you give us assurances the irs is not targeting particular groups based on political leanings? >> let me start by saying, yes, i can give you assurances. as you know, we pride ourselves on being a nonpolitical, nonpartisan organization. so what's been happening has been the normal back and forth that happens with the irs. there's absolutely no targeting. this is the kind of back and forth that happens when people apply for 501-c4 status. >> our next guest played a pivotal role in finding answers in one of the biggest scandals in recent years that plagued the clinton administration. robert bitman, the former deputy whitewater independent counsel.

explain what a special prosecutor is and does. >> a special prosecutor, first under the statute that then existed when independent counsel ken starr was appointed, that was called a statutory independent counsel, which was one that was requested by a court, the attorney general could then request it. but typically that person would be appointed by a three-judge panel and then assigned in the case with some jurisdictional outlines made by the then attorney general. >> you're looking for somebody from the outside who's going to do a thorough independent investigation and not somebody who answers to someone who's beholden to the very people being investigated or their boss or so on? let's start with the irs. is that potentially appropriate here? >> oh, absolutely. the whole point of any entity conducting an investigation is to ensure that it is done in a credible manner.

and if you're investigating something that appears sort of on its face to be, per se, political, the hand-picked political attorney general of the president probably shouldn't be involved in that. >> the irs treasury basically conducted an internal review, appointed the inspector general and they leaked part of this. they tried to get ahead of it by saying, we apologize, we apologize, we know we investigated groups that want to make america a better place to live, that criticizes how the country is being run, that object to government spending debt or taxes. we admit we've investigated all those people or those charitable groups. but they say the report that's going to come out supports our view that the missteps were not politically motivated and they were limited to lower-level workers. how can we trust them on that or even the i.g. on that? >> i don't think we should.

first, the president -- president obama's own scenario there where if people did this, they targeted conservative groups with the specific intention of targeting them for their beliefs or their ideas, he said is outrageous, i would add to that that it's likely criminal. post-nixon, there was a specific statute enacted that prohibited this very conduct. >> how about on benghazi? do we need a special prosecutor there? >> well, benghazi, you have apparently -- the administration itself has walked back from the statements that ambassador rice made on the five talk shows. she was not under oath. she was not making those statements to investigators. is that really going to be criminal? it's certainly political. it's possible perhaps it could move into the political realm if some of the whistle-blowers were tried to be -- were influenced

to hold back their stories or others that misled congress because there was some hearings on the benghazi matter. and i think the truth has yet to fully come out. the process apparently is working on capitol hill right now with some hearings and more of the truth is dripping out every day. >> so ybonbenghazi, that select committee might get more done where we do more fact-gathering on the irs where we have a lot of facts and they don't look good, we go more special prosecutor route. give you the quick final word, bob. >> you can do both at the same time. president bush, by his administration, appointed special counsel in the valerie plume investigation and the destruction of the cia interrogation tapes. but the congress moved forward with this simultaneously. >> that as a resulted in scooter

libby going to jail. >> that's right. we have breaking news for you now. fox news alert on dr. kermit gosnell. we just got word of a verdict in the trial. we are live right after the break. uh, i'm in a timeout because apparently riding the dog like it's a small horse is frowned upon in this establishment! luckily though, ya know, i conceal this bad boy underneath my blanket just so i can get on e-trade. check my investment portfolio, research stocks... wait, why are you taking... oh, i see...solitary. just a man and his thoughts. and a smartphone... with an e-trade app. ♪ nobody knows... [ male announcer ] e-trade. investing unleashed.

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chase liquid. so you can. helps him deposit his checks. jay also like it when mother nature helps him wash his car. mother nature's cool like that. citibank mobile check deposit. easier banking. standard at citibank. fox news alert, we have a verdict now in the murder trial of abortion doctor kermit gosnell. he is accused of killing babies, at least four, actually the prosecutors say he killed hundreds and the number is untold. but he is charged now and facing charges of killing four in the operating room after they survived his attempt to kill them, terminate late-term abortions. the doctor is also facing murder charges in the case of a woman who died of a drug overdose after going to his clinic for a

24-month abortion, in other words, she was 24 months pregnant and was attempting to abort her baby and died in his clinic. it is a clinic that prosecutors have called a, quote, house of horrors that apparently went completely unregulated for more than a decade. and now the jury will have its say. shannon bream is getting ready for her live shot. we'll go to her now live outside the courthouse in philadelphia. shannon? >> reporter: megyn, as you know, this morning, the jury came back after a long weekend, they just basically did a half day on friday. came back this morning rngs told the judge they were deadlocked on two counts. there are minnesota than 250 counts and two co-defendants in this case. our producer who's been inside for the entire trial told us after the jurors came back from lunch, there was a lot of activity. the prosecutors were there, everyone was in the courtroom. she then told us that it appeared a verdict was in and everyone was told, they had to silence their technology.

before she did that, her report to us is, there is now a verdict. and the courtroom is silenced to the outside world. we have to wait and see what's happening, whether the jurors made progress on those two counts -- and we don't know which of the 250 counts or the nine against his co-defendant -- may have been. the judge sent them back and said, give it another shot. it's possible that they returned a verdict on 250-plus counts but remain hung on those two. that's what we're waiting to find out. it will likely be a lengthy process if this is the verdict, as our producer told us from inside the courtroom, it is. because you have to read through every one of those, count after count after count. now we wait to see what the jury has said. there are four first-degree murder counts against gosnell, a third-degree murder count for the adult patient that passed away. in addition to that, there are 24 felony counts that he performed allegedly, abortions after the 24-week limit here in pennsylvania.

there are 250-plus misdemeanor accounts that have to do with a woman coming into the clinic and getting an abortion before the 24-hour waiting period is up. there are conspiracy and racketeering charges to wade through. today marks day ten and we think a verdict is. >> obviously i said that woman was 24 months pregnant, not possible. 24 weeks pregnant. that touches on an interesting issue in this case. for our viewers been paying attention to this case, the limit for an abortion in pennsylvania and many other states is 24 months. you can be six months pregnant and still abort your baby and that has been very controversial in and of itself. some think the limit should be much earlier than that. as a personal anecdote, i told viewers before that i had an ultrasound, i'm pregnant now at 24 weeks and the baby was sucking its thumb and the baby was yawning -- i'm not taking a

side. i'm just saying it's controversial. it's controversial. and there's a limit on how far along you can abort a baby. instead of 24 weeks -- women were dwoing, according to the prosecutor shs to dr. gosnell well beyond 24 weeks because they had passed that mark and they wanted someone to abort their baby. and dr. gosnell, according to the prosecution, was only too happy to oblige. are we going to hear the jury's verdict today on whether he did that? >> reporter: it will be interesting. there are those 24 felony counts that have to do with going past that 24-week period. they detailed case after case after women who went in for allegedly to get an abortion at a time that they thought was inside the 24-week limit. there are clinic workers, eight of them have already testified against dr. gosnell and taken plea deals themselves because they say they regularly saw, according to their allegations, babies who were well beyond 24

weeks into pregnancy. one woman testified before the grand jury that she went in thinking she was very well along, wasn't sure she was allowed to get an abortion. she says gosnell told her, you're only 21 weeks. that sounded off to her. they started the medication that would start the abortion procedure. she changed her mind. he told her, he couldn't reverse it. she went to a hospital and ended up within a couple of days delivering her baby who was 29 weeks. and the baby did survive and is healthy and fine now. but there are a number of these testimonies from patients and from clinic workers who say he knew many times these babies were beyond 24 weeks in pregnancy and still went ahead with the abortions. there are pictures out there that people have seen that are very difficult to look at where these babies look nearly full term. clinic workers themselves took those pictures. they told the grand jury they did so because they had become convinced what they were doing was wrong. >> you can't look -- i confess

to having googled it and you can't get those picture'rs ou t. not something you want to do. i know there's 258 counts we're going to hear verdicts on but typically we would hear the big questions resolved up front. how will the procedure work when the verdict comes down? we don't have cameras in the courtroom. how is it going to work? >> reporter: from what we understand, the judge said when a verdict came, he would tell everyone in the courtroom they had to turn our electronics off. we think that's what's happened at this point if that verdict is in. there is a co-defendant, nine counts against her to be read. and the 258 counts against gosnell. the murder charges are the first of the charges against him on that jury sheet. if they go in order, those will be high up in the order of what's read. the problem is everybody's locked into that courtroom essentially. the judge said he would have two burly bailiffs guarding the door. now we wait until our producer can make it out. >> we'll see everybody rush out to get information to their reporters like shannon as soon

as they are permitted. right now, that jury has done its job and we are told has reached a verdict and we will be back in moments, we hope, with that verdict and full analysis with kirsten powers, jennifer reuben and others. lable out the. i knew devry university would give me the skills that i needed to make one of those tech jobs mine. we teach cutting-edge engineering technology, computer information systems, networking and communications management -- the things that our students need to know in the world today. our country needs more college grads to help fill all the open technology jobs. to help meet that need, here at devry university, we're offering $4 million dollars in tech scholarships for qualified new students. learn more at devry.edu. our seafood dinner for two for just 25 dollars! first get salad and cheddar bay biscuits. then choose from a variety of seafood entrées. plus choose either an appezer or a dessert to share. offer ends soon at red lobster! where we sea food differently. >> announcer: you never know when, but thieves can steal

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so we brought back what you loved. added new surprises. and now, you've come back to us. we're speechless. except for two little words. ♪ to prove to you that aleve is the better choice for him, he's agreed to give it up. that's today? [ male announcer ] we'll be with him all day as he goes back to taking tylenol. that was okay, but after lunch my knee started to hurt again, and now i gotta take more pills. ♪ yup another pill stop. can i get my aleve back yet? ♪ for my pain, i want my aleve. ♪ [ male announcer ] this may, buy aleve and help those in need. fox news alert, we are officially on verdict watch now. 9 we have a verdict in the trial of dr.ermit gosnell. he's a philadelphia abortion doctor facing charges, four charges of first-degree murder,

one charge of third-degree murder, and more than 200 lesser counts for what are described as the horror events that took place in a clinic that, quote, specialized in late-term abortion. want to tell our viewers that shannon bream is outside the courtroom right now. our producer, kristin brown, is inside the courtroom right now. we believe the verdict is being read at this moment. the attorneys are there, we're told. the defendant is there as well. two defendants, dr. kermit gosnell and a worker in his clinic. we believe the verdict is being read. they were told at 2:14, we have to go in. the courtroom will be locked down, the verdict will be read. we haven't heard from the producer since then because the court banned any electronic media and has embargoed all the reporters inside from running outside to their cameras and newswire services until all counts have been resolved. we believe they're going through them one by one right now. as soon as we have word of what the verdict is, we'll bring it to you right here. right now, i'm joined by

jennifer reuben with "the washington post," a columnist. she's been following this case as have we here at fox news. great to have you here on fox. >> great to be here. >> great to have you on the program. and i want to ask you as we wait to watch this verdict, there's something inherently suspenseful and, yes, dramatic about verdict watch in general in this country as the criminal justice system works as it's supposed to. but there is something about this case that has larger implications on the abortion debate in this country and health oversight and the role of the feds when it comes to an issue that is very hard to debate. >> it is. and i think this is why fox was one of the few news outlets that was covering this. this was not something the mainstream media wanted to report. this is nothing the pro-abortion lobby is very excited about. that's because we come face to face with the reality of late-term abortion.

aside from the fact that this was a clinic in violation of every health code imaginable and this doctor was a real quack. we're talking about infants that if they would be operated on, for example, by a surgeon at 24 weeks, would likely survive. as you say, you can take a s sonogram and see them sucking their thumb, they respond to music, indications that that baby is far more than a fetus, the way the pro-abortion lobby likes to refer to it. this makes americans confront that. the president doesn't want to talk about it. he says to planned parenthood, i'm all with you folks, those people who want abortion anyplace, anytime. it's going to have an effect on the american people. there are a lot of states out there that have a deadline earlier than 24 weeks, that have that deadline at 20 weeks. the supreme court is looking at that. and i think with technology, you're going to see a lot more concern about these late-term abortions. >> there's a question when the supreme court started to hand

out rulings on this about viability. at what point does the child stand a chance of living outside the womb of the mother? and that point has changed over the years, given modern technology and the development they can do, babies born prematurely with their lungs and so on. and the abortion laws haven't caught up with those changes? >> correct. i think one of the problems that the abortion lobby is having is the science. they say conservatives don't like science. well, there's a lot of science out there that not only allows us to save these children but also allows you to see them. and to obtain an indication that this is something far more than just a clump of cells. not only has the technology changed but our perception of late-term abortions has changed because of the technology. >> i want to talk to you about this doctor, though, because this case does cause one to reflect and it is causing some to reflect on late-term

abortions and 24-week abortions and so on and whether that is something we accept in this country. but this guy, the reason he got away with this for so long, say the feds, say the grand jury, those who sat on the grand jury, is because of the lack of oversight. they went after governor tim ridge who we have requested repeatedly to come on this show, i have received no response. not only do i not get a no, i get completely blown off. we want to talk to him about national security, we get a response. want to talk to him about gosnell, nothing. the grand jury concluded that he did not want inspections of these abortion clinics at all because he thought it would put up a barrier to women seeking abortions. you can argue the merits of abortion politics. but the grand jury is telling us that that decision by governor ridge and others cost women their lives, cost babies who should not have been aborted their lives and happened with

impunity, not just under governor ridge but others before him for 17 years. >> yeah. this is the horror of this. not only was there potential for legislation and potential for regulation, but these people just didn't do it. the state health department didn't do it. there weren't inspections. there weren't investigations. there weren't rules promulgated. and i think it's because they get pushback whenever there's attempt to enforce regulations on abortion clin ix. the pro-abortion lobby comes out and says, you're denying women the right to an abortion. that woman who eventually died would still be alive today -- that's a big problem. >> the woman is an immigrant, i cannot recall from what country. they say she was given just

ridiculous amounts of drugs, the inappropriate amount, they weren't all dealing with doctors. there was a race issue, too. they said women from other countries or certain minority ethnic heritage were treated by the nondoctors while white women were treated by dr. gosnell. that the feds said the clinic was stained with cat urine on the wall and feces of animals. it was begging for overnight. it was begging for oversight. i want to ask you this before i let you go. the planned parenthood folks say, look, this guy underscores the reason why you need planned parenthood. even if you don't like abortion, you can get an abortion at planned parenthood under sanitary conditions that are safe for the mother. like abortion or not, it is legal in this country. so you need a facility that you can count on for healthy -- for the mother -- safe abortions and get rid of the dr. gosnells of

the world. >> well, two things -- one, whether it's safe or not for the mother, some of those infants were 24 weeks or farther along. as we talked about earlier, late-term abortions are very problematic. they say it's rare. it's not rare. i think as a country and the courts as well are going to have to have a discussion about whether we should be moving that date back. right now, abortion is essentially on demand in this country. but late-term abortions, i bet you'd get 80% to 90% of the public who agree this is not something we want to have in this country. >> thank you for being with us. we were going to originally talk about that presser with jay carney. but we switched topics on the news. jennifer, great to see you. still on verdict watch. shannon bream is live outside the courthouse awaiting word from the jury. we are also wondering if dr. gosnell is convicted, this is a

potential death penalty case. if he is acquitted, what does that mean for him and his future? panelists are up on this, they're here live along with kirsten powers

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with other charges. a colleague of his is facing charges as well. this is possibly a death penalty case, folks, if he is found guilty of these verdicts. so what is likely to happen once the jury tells us what it has decided? joining me now, elyse wheel a. if the jury finds him guilty, this is a death penalty-eligible crime. what will happen next? >> okay, what will happen right there on the scene is that the judge will pull all the jurors to make sure that they all agree to their verdicts. you're right, they'll go through the aggravated murder, the murder counts first and then the lesser counts. there are a lot of them. if we get into the first-degree murder counts, then it goes to the penalty phase, which is going to be with a jury in this case because a death penalty case in this country goes before

the jury. they'll decide whether or not it's life in prison without possibility of parole or the death penalty. >> what if he is acquitted? we were told this jury came out and said, we are deadlocked on two of the charges and we don't know which two. there are 258 total. it could be two nothing charges, in the relative scale of things, or it could be two of the murder charges. we don't know. but if they have decided to acquit this man, what then happens? >> megyn, he walks free like every defendant accused of crimes in the united states. again, the accusations are merely those. they have to be proven by every reasonable doubt. if the evidence is there, he walks out. if he does walk out, it's probably because they did not believe the witnesses who claimed that repeatedly it was standard operating procedure that they would snip the spines of babies that are literally born alive. >> i know. i wrestle with this case because we want to tell the viewers what

he was accused of and yet it's the middle of the afternoon and people watch this program with their kids present. we want to be careful. his medical license was suspended after the initial raid. they raided his clinic initially because they thought he might be dispensing medications improperly. suspended and revoked. if he's acquitted, what happens? >> he can ask for his license back. the suspension is not a revocation. if he's acquitted under all counts -- which i really don't think that's what's going to happen. but he could be back at practicing medicine tomorrow. >> come on. >> not tomorrow. soon. >> is there any chance he gets his medical license back in the wake of -- let me give that to mark. >> there is a difference between proof beyond a reasonable doubt, which is the highest standard under the law, and the standard required to keep your license, if there's issues that are

raised. there he might have trouble i the licensing arena. >> kirsten powers has been all over this case. she joins us live after the break. i want to keep you guys around as we continue to await the news. it should be out momentarily, from the verdict. ♪ [ femalannouncer ] from more efficient payments. ♪ to more efficient pick-ups. ♪ wireless is limitless.

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>> megyn: the jury has reached its verdict now in the murder trial of abortion doctor kermit gosnell. we await only to hear what it is. it's being read inside the courtroom. our producer will bring us the news. joining me now by offend as we wait, who has been covering this. the media were not covering this, and if you poll the american people whether they're aware what this man is on trial

for, it's dreadful how many people understand. what it as stake here? >> well, a lot is at stake. first, the grand jury report was very clear this could have been avoided. you have not just babies being murdered and you also had women being mistreated. one woman died, who was a refugee, who died from an overdose of demerol, and that the defense has said that he shouldn't even be charged -- gosnell should not be charged with third degree murder because she was treated like everybody else who came through there. so, the attitude and the disregard for the women that came through there and the fact it was so known -- i heard you talking about how tom ridge won't comedown show -- this is something the grand jury report had people testifying from the government, under oath, saying this was a political decision

that start with tom ridge and went on from there to not enforce the policies on the books that would inspect abortion clinics, and as anyone i think who saw this case at all knows, if they had set foot in there one time they swee what is going on. >> we won't have a discussion about the human remains found in there the senior legal council for the department of health insisted the department had no legal obligation to monitor abortion clinics and another lawyer said, people die. >> right. >> kirsten, i'm sorry, but we have breaking news situation. we'll have you back tomorrow and talk about what the verdict was as we tone to await news in the gosnell trial. [ male announcer ] eligible for medicare?

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which has over 30 years of experience behind it. with all the good years ahead, look for the experience and commitment to go the distance with you. call now to request your free decision guide. >> megyn: thanks for watching. here's shepard. >> shepard: continuing coverage of breaking news and the verdict is in, in the murder trial of controversial abortion doctor kermit gosnell. shannon is up and ready to report. at this point we don't know what the verdict is yet. at it our belief they're reedling it now but that could go on for quite some time. we believe it gap 30 -- began 30 minutes ago when they locked everybody in and said no more communicating. the prosecutor's called this man's practice a house of horrors and murdered not one but at least four live babies, staff members at the clinic say they saw each of the babies move, breathe, or whine, outside the