he fell cushioned his fall they plan to release him into the ocala national forest. >> he is cute. >> jon: trying to get grub. >> that's all we need. >> jon: thank you for joining us. >> "america live" starts right now. >> megyn: fox news alert. tempers boiling about the scandal at the irs. welcome to "america live," everyone, i'm megyn kelly. we have been watching a remarkable hearing in washington, d.c. just wrapping up moments ago. both republican and democratic members of the house ways and means committee grilling the now ousted irs commissioner, booted about a couple weeks early from his job. steve miller with the blistering barrage of questions, asking him who gave the order to target conservative groups more than two years ago. challenging miller with accusation that's previously lied repeatedly to congress. when asked about this issue in prior appearances before them. and also asking whether the irs shared information on these groups improperly collected with other

branches of the government. including, possibly the fbi, the atf, regulatory agencies or others. who are highlights are a dramatic day. >> these groups are then subjected to further irs investigation and document requests. irs employees later expanded their search to include groups concerned about government spending, debt, taxes, the constitution, the bill of rights, or trying to it, and i quote,, make america a better place to live, end quote. let me repeat that people were targeted for trying to make better a better place to live. despite a two year long investigation by this committee, the irs never told the american people or their representatives about this simple truth. in fact, we were repeatedly told no such targeting was happening. that is being mis -- that isn't being mislead, that's

lying. please raise your right hand. do you solemnly sware or affirm that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you god? >> i do. >> i do. >> i have reviewed the inspector general's report and i believe the conclusions are consistent with that i think that what happened here were that foolish mistakes were made by people trying to be more efficient in work load selection. >> why did you mislead congress and the american people on this? >> mr. chairman, did i not mislead congress nor the american people. i answered the questions as they were asked. >> you are telling us you have no knowledge of who initiated or who approved this targeting of conservative organizations? >> i will stand by what the tig nor report has put out there as the facts. >> can you assure this committee that none of the information provided to the irs by these groups was shared or given to any other federal agency? >> that would be a violation of law and i do

not believe that happened. >> you can assure us there was absolutely no sharing of this information by a government agency. >> take a look at that but i would be shocked, congressman, if that happened, shocked. >> let's look at one of the tea party groups in my community. the founder, small business woman originally filed for tax exempt status in july of 2010. fully 20 months later, in february of 2012, she received a letter from the irs with numerous follow-up questions, a lot of them intrusive, but she answered every one of them and returned it well within the two-week time limit. now, almost three years to the day, that she first filed, her application is still pending. but let's look at what happened to her in the three years since she applied. beginning in december of 2010, she was visited by the fbi domestic terrorism unit. her personal returns and her business returns were both audited by the irs.

she received four fbi inquiries. in her business received unsolicited audits, unscheduled audits by osha, the commission on environmental quality and the atf twice. now, this is the citizen in a and a small business woman who had never been audited by the irs or any of these agencies until she applied to you for tax exempt status for her tea party. to the broader question here, is this still america? is this government so drunk on power that it would turn its full force, its full might to harass and intimidate and threaten an average american who only wants her voice and their voices heard? mr. miller, no ho in the irs is responsible for

targeting conservative organizations? >> so let me first say i cannot speak to a given case. and we have talked about 60103. >> this is not just one case. you know we are talking about the whole list inspector general put up there. >> correct. >> who is responsible for targeting these groups? >> so, again, i'm going to take -- i'm going to take exception to the concept of targeting because it's a loaded term. the listing was done -- >> -- this was not a listing. you created a be on the lookout list. that's not a centralized government, mandated or directed listing. you had a be on the lookout list that you acknowledge. you have the cases the inspector general already verified. so the question remains: who is responsible for targeting the conservative organizations? >> so, again, and i think if you look at the tig nor report, it answers your question.

>> there are no names in the inspector general's report. so i'm asking you, not as the acting commissioner but as the deputy commissioner over this organization, who is responsible for targeting these individuals? >> so, i don't have names for you, mr. brady, and i'm willing to try to find a that out. i think tignor is looking at that right now. i don't think targeting again is wrong. >> this is wrong to abuse the tax system. this screams out for tax reform, does it not? >> i think it's an area right for redefinition and reform, yes, sir. >> well, regardless of whether democrats or republicans did something like this, the outrage should still be there. is that not correct? >> um, the outrage as to -- >> -- the abuse. >> yes. >> you knew of our concern of this targeting, you knew of the allegations that had been reported to this committee. we brought you here to talk about it. you had received a briefing that this targeting was taking place, but you did

not divulge that to this committee when we were asking questions about this. you said in your answer that you were aware of some 503 fell into this category. we did grouping to assure consistency and quality and continued to work those cases. you didn't mention targeting based on ideology. you didn't mention targeting based on buzz words like tea party or patriots or 9/12. you knew that but didn't mention that to the committee. do you not think it's an incomplete answer. >> i answered the question truthfully. >> was the question to ms. learner about targeting conservative groups planned in advance. >> i believe that we talked about that, yes. >> did you ever have any contact either by email, phone, or in person with the white house regarding the targeting of tax exempt groups from 2010 until today? >> absolutely not. >> how about the department of treasury?

>> i certainly would have had some conversations with treasury in my role as acting commissioner because i reported to them. on this topic it was very -- it would have been, i believe i have to go back and look, very recent that that conversation would have taken place. >> how about president obama's re-election campaign? >> no. >> i just have one last question, mr. miller. you really are not taking any acknowledgment that you knew anything, that you didn't do anything wrong. you have said that numerous on the record today that you did nothing wrong. so i find it hard to believe why did you resign or why are you resigning? >> i never said i didn't do anything wrong, menuez. i resigned because of the acting commissioner what happens in the irs whether i was personally involved or not stops at my desk. and so i should be held

accountable for what happens. >> i want to ask you specifically, commissioner, has anyone been disciplined directly related to this development, review, approval and use of inappropriate criteria and have any actions corrective actions been put in place tone sure that does not happen again? >> sir, let me walk through. the answer to that is yes. what happened in may when i was told this i asked the management there to reassign an individual. >> mr. miller, in january of 2010, an organization called liberty township tea party in ohio applied for tax exempt status. there is no resolution of their application to this day. liberty township tea party received 35 questions. i have got them in front of me in march of 2011. but really there were 94 questions when you look at all the subquestions. the letter directs the applicant to provide under

penalty of perjury some of the following information. copies of all activity on facebook and twitter. resumes of all past and present employees. whether a past or present employee or their family members plans to run for office. >> we provided horrible customer service here. i will admit that. we did. horrible customer service. >> you targeted -- is a very different question. >> so your answer was no, no one was treated differently? but to take you back to mr. ryan's question, you knew that groups with the term tea party had been automatically subjected to extra scrutiny. you have admitted that today. you acknowledged your investigation to whether certain groups were being treated differently. whether there was intent or not, didn't this committee have the right to know? >> i answered all questions truthfully, sir. >> didn't this committee have the right to know that

groups were being treated differently? that you have this group of 200, 300, whatever the number was, did not this committee have the right to know? >> i answered all questions i was asked. >> so your answer is a nonanswer once again? >> it's an easy question. do you not think that congress has the right to know all of the information that you knew? >> so, look, congress was. >> did this committee, mr. miller, does this committee, mr. miller, does this committee have the right to know the information that you knew? yes or no? >> this committee glcialtion yes or. >> yes or no? >> is always going to get the information. >> you testified before this committee, mr. miller -- please, mr. miller. >> yes, sir. >> you testified before this committee and you did not provide the information. you did not share the information you knew. so, my question is, do you

not believe that -- this is the united states congress here that you are accountable -- >> megyn: what a day. what a day on capitol hill. some of those very same conservative groups targeted by the irs are planning on suing the organization now. in three minutes, we will speak to their attorney, jay seq. couldulo. he knew this b. this long before any of us did. and was representing these tea party groups and was asking what was going on only to be stonewalled by the irs. how things have changed. jay is next. the day building t begins with a surprise twinge of back pain... and a choice. take up to 4 advil in a day or 2 aleve for all day relief. [ male announcer ] that's handy. ♪

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>> mr. miller, you are the commissioner. who is responsible? you conducted the investigation. who was responsible? >> i don't have that name, sir. >> why don't you have that name? >> that i was originally. >> you have asked anybody? >> yes. i asked. >> who did you ask? >> i asked.

>> you don't have that name either? >> i will be glad to provide those names. >> let him answer the question. >> mr. -- >> the washington state's time. >> who did you ask? >> i asked the senior technical advisor. >> and what's the senior technical advisor's name? >> nannies marks. >> what did nancy tell you? who is responsible? >> by that i don't remember to be honest with. >> you you don't remember again? >> megyn: who was responsible? simple question. asked repeatedly of the acting irs commissioner this morning. no answers provided. jay seculo is the chief counsel for the american law and justice. before the break, following this and pursuing questions on this long before any of us were paying attention to it because he had many clients were saying jay, i'm telling you, i'm being harassed by the irs with questions wanting to know if any member of my family is ever going to run for office just because i'm applying for status as a

social welfare organization. i want to pick up where we just left off. who was responsible? he could barely get him to say that he talked to nancy and then nancy told him who was responsible but he can't remember who it was? >> well, i have got the names who were ho were the agents involved in this. i don't know why they are having a difficult time determining this because they all sent out letters, megyn. i have got them. because i have 27 compliance i have them from four offices. they know the agents names. they know the supervisors names. they know the group managers' names. i worked my first job out of law school chief counsel for the irs. i was a trial attorney in a regional office. our client was the tax exempt group. this is nonsense. miller's testimony was embarrassing. of course he knows who this is. and how come lois learner is still in charge ever the irs exempt. anybody asked that question? she is still there. >> megyn: this is the groh group that oversaw directly the determinations unit so-called in cincinnati that was giving everyone

such a hard time. and that group answered ultimately to lois. >> right. she still has her job. and former person who had the job before there was there during 2010 when this criteria was established. she is now heading up the affordable care act provision of the code service requirement. >> sarah. >> she is the agent person in charge. >> megyn: person in charge sarah hall ingraham was the person overseeing this program while it was being carried out against the conservatives is now been placed in charged of the obama care. >> obama care. >> unit. responsible for dealing with people's information. so that is a little chilling. and lois learner, let's talk about her. she got a lot of press today. why sh nt hasn't she been fired? they owe could you seed her of repeatedly lying to congress. they said she had testified to them recently. she came before congress on wednesday, may 8th and asked in part about these items that we have been -- you know, that the ig was

investigating. didn't say anything about them. didn't offer any truthful testimony on those subjects. and then two days later on friday, she now -- now they have admitted planted a question at a public event that she was attending. and had somebody ask her about it and then she comes out and says oh, yeah, we did it. but we didn't do it with any malice. and that we're sorry. >> yeah. it's not part -- she also said and so did miller today. this isn't partisan activity. it's just we were looking at the positions these groups advocated were which sounded partisan to me. that was good. i thought you were fantastic yesterday when the president made his response to a question by not answering that question when it came to does anybody at the white house know about this before the white house counsel was let known of this at the end of april. april 22nd and the president said let me specifically ain't question and he says no, but i didn't know of the ig report until the ig report was released. which was not the question the bloomberg reporter asked. megyn, this is really getting bad. the president issues his

question or response which is troubling to say least coming from the commander and chief of the united states and our president, our chief executive officer. then you have the head of the irs can't remember anybody's name. the person in charge of tax exempt is still in charge of tax exempt even though she oversaw this disaster which includes in the attorney general of the united states may well include criminal activity. so, even the inspector generals say they have to take a new look at the criminal activity aspect of this which they did not in their first report. >> megyn: scathing letter that ms. learner received from some other members of congress saying you came up here repeatedly and provided testimony to us that we just do not believe was true. we think you have mislead us repeatedly. they said especially troubling is the fact that in june of 2011, nearly a year before you provided answers that we now believe were misleading to this committee, you were briefed on the fact that there was a be on the look-out memo within the irs for any conservative or tea party sounding groups. and you had instructed that

that be changed but when we asked you about it, you didn't mention anything about it, you didn't disclose it you didn't tell anybody. and that's how miller sounded today, too. that he had been telling you about he refused to testify about it when asked by the congress. it's like the irs believed they didn't tell congress about it would somehow go away. >> yeah, well, you know, be on the lookout list sounds pretty direct and targeted to me. by the way, miller said today, the acting commissioner now leaving his office three weeks earlier than he was planning so that was no big revelation by the president. he said he objected to the word targeting smg the inspector general did not because he used it at least 16 times inside heir report with regard to what the irs was doing. targeting in and of itself is partisan. you are going after a particular group. >> megyn: i want to ask you about that i'm going to carry you over because we're coming up on a break. the inspector general testified today he didn't say look, this wasn't political. he said at this point, we have nothing to contradict the irs's assertions that it wasn't political. but he also admitted this wasn't a comprehensive investigation.

this was just an audit basically that he performed. there seems to be another investigation going on right now. i want to ask you about this. if this was not political. if these groups were not chosen for political reasons, what other reason could there be?

-- -- you didn't inform your superiors of that that you recollect? >> i'm not sure why i would have to notify the superiors. it was in the papers. i don't remember whether we made a referral or i made a referral at that time. >> megyn: jay is back with me now. i want to pick up with

where we left off the ig testified that not that this was not political he had nothing to contradict the irs assertions to him this was not based on political reasons. i ask you, jay, if this was not the repeated targeting of conservatives over a period of 18 plus months and then it resumed later, so let's call it two years rounded up, if it wasn't for political reasons, what other possible reason could there have been? >> none. of course it has to be political because look who was targeted. you had conservative organizations, tea party groups, patriot groups, conservative jewish organizations e street their position was contrary to what the president was. can you imagine if this had came out of about the election that the irs had targeted specific organizations and leaked information to some of those organization opponents in courtrooms

that in and of itself is criminal activity. >> megyn: he denied that. >> yeah, i know. but, no, he didn't say that it was not leaked. >> he said. >> he would be outraged. >> megyn: he would be shocked. >> i'm a little shocked that they targeted conservative groups although after doing these cases for 24 months nothing shocks me anymore. the inspector general is the word that used the word targeting by the way. i think the the reality, megyn, this is nothing but politics, but i believe that the attorney general saying that he going to look at the criminal aspect of it is fine. but now you have got the fbi investigating the irs and this the meantime, let me just say i still have 10 clients that are waiting for their exemption and we sent the letter on monday to the irs acting commissioner and to the chief counsel's office and to these agents saying grant the exceptions already. no response. so next week we go to fall court. >> megyn: this business about -- this was one congressman. congressman brady talking about what one of his constituents went through. you heard him saying is this still america when he said that his client applied for tax exempt

status in december of 2010 and then, i'm sorry in july of 2010, which is just months after this whole thing was born. so it was in full fledge by july of 2010. that she got visited by the fbi terrorism unit, four fbi inquiries, unscheduled audits by on or about sharks atf two times. she had never been audited before. that's his allegation based on what his constituent told him. but, jay, i mean, if that is true, then this goes much deeper and much higher and gets to a much more disturbing level than we know today. >> if we got the terrorism unit looking at, you know, potential tea party tax exempt individuals and harassing them or questioning them, but they didn't bother to, you know, follow up on the first boston bomber when he went over to dagestan, that tells you something. i will tell you, this megyn, i have got a case right now where a client challenged the hhs mandate affordable healthcare part of obama care. we have got an injunction on it. he was audited four years ago or three years ago. no changes, everything was fine.

fairly large company. after we got the injunction, surprise, surprise, a new notice of audit. again, they got audited. i'm hoping this is here coincidence but at this point i assume nothing is coincidental and the fact is, we are learning today of many organizations, conservative organizations not only that were either slowed up in the process of getting their exemption with you those that already had it were audited and extensively during the same period of time 2010, 2011, 2012, billy gram, franklin graham said that too. >> he said in opening statement, miller did, that we made mistakes and then he admitted to abuses. but he said we made mistakes. and he said, look, it was 2010. we were getting influx of applications to be this tax exempt organization called a 501 c 4. we had to have some way of dealing with all of them. i want to point this out because there is another piece of this, jay. we were getting a lot of complaints about said organizations and whether or not they really were political and that's what the irs said. i have got it right here in the i.g. report and their

response to the ig. they said we also received numerous referrals from the public media watchdog groups and members of congress. alleging the specific section a 01 c 4 organizations were engaged in political activity. i ask you to what extent do we look to in particular on the democratic side of the aisle who are trying to light a fire under the irs to go after these groups. >> chuck schumer, al-franken asked for these kind of reviews and they got them. so now they don't like the result because the irs is acknowledging and apologizing for what they call a poor customer service today? it's like returning an item to j.c. penney or sears. give me a break. this isn't customer service. if you file a false return with the irs you don't get to say i'm sorry. you go to jail. this is absurd. it's politically motivated becoming clear by the moment. as more of this becomes under light. i think it's going to frankly megyn, we probably have just not even scratched the surface of what was going on. by the way in 2010, applications for a 01 c 4.

look at the i.g.'s report were actually down. they put this in place before there was the surge of applications. if there was a surge of applications ask questions relevant to the determination of status not what books you read, who is on your membership list run for money have you ever thought for running for political office or anybody in your family. >> megyn: what the irs does to the normal american citizen when they find themselves in the irs crosshairs. that was a point made eloquently by one of the congressman today that led to applause on the committee floor. we will so he that to our viewers in just a minute. jay, thank you. >> thanks, megyn. >> megyn: also from washington today the story behind the doj grab of reporter phone records has taken a troubling new twist. as a "the washington post" investigation raises questions about whether politics and not national security may be the reason why the doj got so upset with the a.p.'s report. plus, the president and top democratic senators yesterday seemed to suggest that the death of four americans in a terror

attack was directly due to republicans cutting security funding. we will investigate that charge next. wait until you see what we f [shouting foreign language]

negative meg within the last 24 hours, we have seen a new push from the obama administration, top democrats who appear to be putting blame in part for the benghazi terror attacks on the lack of funding for

security at our consulate in benghazi. now, this comes after we heard the state department saw internal documents and listened to testimony from diplomats who were on the ground in benghazi ahead of the september 11th attack all saying that security was inadequate. here what happens we heard from the president himself yesterday. >> we're going to need congress' help in terms of increasing the number of our marine corps guards who protected our embassies. we will not be able to do this alone. we will need congress as a partner. >> again and again, republicans republicans have blocked or opposed or reduced security funding. >> i think the benghazi scandal end quote starts with the republicans looking in the mirror. mirror, mirror, who is the fairest of them all. they audited to ask mirror, mirror, who cut the funding for diplomatic security across this world for america? the answer, republicans. they cannot stand the heat, so they turn it on

secretary clinton and that is completely wrong. >> megyn: joining me joining me now is chafe fits who joins me from capitol hill. congressman, good to see you again. i want to make clear. obviously, obviously security was inadequate on the ground in benghazi, libya on 9/11 of 2012. that's why we have four dead americans in part. the question was why was it inadequate? now what we are see something a growing call for democrats and you saw it there with barbara boxer saying it's your fault. it's the republicans in congress who failed to fund these embassies and con solutes and outposts so that they could protect themselves. your response? >> well, the democrats say that we politicize things? let me give you the facts, megyn from, 2008, to 2000 12, they have more than 90% increase in security funding, that's 18% annualized. in 2012 alone, they got 400 million more dollars than they had the year

before. we had charlene lamp testify that benghazi the security decisions had nothing to do with funding. funding did not block the push for more security in benghazi. and then we heard from the chief financial officer of the state department who has also said in an email that security decisions were not impeded by some financial situation. and, the troops, or the people that they wanted for these sst teams to be on the ground and protect those people in libya, that came out of pentagon budget. it didn't come out of the state department budget. and so, that's just -- it's just fiction that the democrats are trying to lay out there and put blame on republicans instead of taking personal responsibility for the bad security decisions that were made. >> the "the washington post" did a fact check on this because barbara boxer had renewed that claim and gave her three pinocchios on it. said no, the republicans while in control, didn't give the president every dollar he wanted for embassy security nor did the democrats when they were in control. and that's par for the course on capitol hill.

you guys just don't give the president a blank check and say yes to the entire budget. notwithstanding your denials and the democrats' denials the funding for embassy security has gone up. it's gone up each and every year as you point out. here is what i want to ask you, okay? if it wasn't a lack of funding that led to the lack of security, then why? because we have seen so much back and forth about these guys begging for more security. they knew al qaeda was on the rise. they knew al qaeda affiliated groups or terror groups were on the rise. they were terrified they were going to get attacked. smoking gun memo in august of 2012 right before the attack saying we cannot withstand a coordinated attack. instead of giving them the security they drew it down. so why? >> well, look, it didn't fit their political narrative. remember five days before the attack the president had been saying al qaeda was on the run and that they were defeating terrorism and, you know, they had killed usama bin laden, which was a good thing. don't get me wrong. but, that just didn't fit their political narrative.

what you do hear them pushing for is to quote, unquote, normalize as swiftly as possible. now in the world of the state department, normalized means let's get rid are of the trained u.s. troops and let's bring in locals. and when i was there on the ground, i heard first happened from the people in tripoli when i went there that first week of october, they said we actually had to hire somebody who was a mobile phone sales men to do security. the guy had never handled a gun before because the state department had pushed to hire locals who were not trained like some special operations person who has gone through the united states military. that push for normalization, i think, was the prevailing thought and the prevailing wind instead of letting the security dictate security. >> megyn: and we have locals who are supposed to be helping us protect the consulate on the night we were attack and they ran. there was a question about whether they were in on it and helping those who attacks us. let me challenge you let's take a look at charlene lamb. she did tell darrell issa

that the security situation was not because of a lack of money. just listen to her. do we have that sound bite? listen to her. >> ms. lamb, yesterday, you told us in testimony that you received from mr. nordstrom a recommendation but not a request for more security. and you admitted that in fact you had previously said that if he submitted a request, you would not support it; is that correct? >> under the current conditions, yes. sir, we had the correct number of assets in benghazi at the time of 9/11 for what had been agreed upon. >> megyn: i don't know. charlene lamb was out there saying i want everybody to look normal. i mean, it's -- i mean, was it her? was it somebody above her? who was implementing this alleged plan of which you speak? >> well, you have got to take the secretary of state at her word. she said she is responsible. and, you know, this plea of ignorance that you hear

from the senior most officials is not really justification. in fact, that probably scares me more. what bothers me is four and a half months after the attack, the secretary of state hillary clinton herself came here and said i take all the responsibility, but then says well, the security decisions were made at the local level. but that we heard from the regional security officers, eric nordstrom who said i was never allowed to implement what i thought we needed in order to secure libya for the americans. >> megyn: she said i didn't know anything about it i know nothing of it. >> this is libya after a revolution. if the secretary of state is not paying attention to that, what are they paying attention to? it's not like we have some big uprising or something. libya should be a priority. and, of course, the secretary of state should be responsible for that there is no excusing that. >> congressman jason chafe fits, thank you, sir. >> thank you. >> new twist into the investigation into why the department of justice launched that very controversial raid of phone collectedsically

two months of phone records 20 plus reporters. 100 phone lines at the associated press. now there are allegations that it wasn't so much national security but perhaps it was politically motivated. we will tell you what the evidence of that is. plus, we have more drama from that irs hearing. including questions about what kind of pension and benefits are coming to the irs boss who was just allowed to resign over all of this. stay tuned. >> these groups were then subjected to further irs investigation and document requests. irs employees later expanded their search to include groups concerned about government spending, debt, taxes, the constitution, the bill of rights, or trying to, and i quote: make america a better place to live, end quote. let me repeat that. people were targeted for trying to make america a better place to live.

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[ female announcer ] from meeting customer needs... to meeting patient needs... ♪ to wireless is mitless.s... >> megyn: fox news alert. new questions this hour on the investigation into why the justice department subpoenaed and obtained the telephone records of the associated press over a two month period without any notice to the associated press whatsoever. the attorney general has said that this is all about protecting national security this is one of the most gravest in his career.

whether politics may have had a hand in this doj push. joining me now is ben shapiro syndicated columnist and column west breitbart news and "chicago sun times." it's confusing. let's just walk through it. on may 7th, 2012. that was a monday afternoon, the associated press published a story saying what, lynn? what was its story about. >> very basically that there had been a foiled airplane attack plot that was associated with al qaeda. that is the story in its simplest form, megyn. >> megyn: and so now the "the washington post" is telling us that the cia and the white house didn't like that story, and had gone to the associated -- the associated press went to them five days earlier on may 2nd and said we have got this story and the cia said please hold off on reporting it. and ben, the associated press cooperated with the cia.

correct? >> well, they did. >> they did. >> they said sure. and then five days later they went back to the cia and the cia apparently said to them at that point we are all clear on this story but if you could hold off a day we would really appreciate it so we can kind of prep our response to the story then they decided they were going to ask, the cia said to the associated press we will give you a one hour exclusive. so we'll let you release the story an hour before we respond to it and before anybody else has it. then they came back a few minutes later and said we will do it five minutes before. at that point the a.p. said we are not going to wait a day we are going to print this thing. >> the allegation, lynn, seems to be that the associated press says now that you have told us, cia, that the national security issues have been resolved, we're not going to wait. we only waited on our story for five days because you told us national security was involved. now you say it's not. we are going to publish the story. the way the press report reads the associated press is scratching its head saying thought it was all resolved. how did it resolved in phone records getting subpoenaed? >> right. that's why there is to two

parts of the story. do this quickly. the attempt to manage the story is serious. the outrage is going out, is the subpoena for the phone records. and i will tell you, megyn, there is -- the a.p. had all the bargaining power. they weren't being given a scoop. all of us in the business sometimes get a handout, scoop. we like it. we will take it but, you newed me i media, instead of a day ahead of time you get it hour or minutes. they didn't have any bargaining position. a.p. enterprised the story. they didn't need anybody to give it to them. they needed to make sure nobody would get hurt. >> megyn: holding off on reporting their story about this foiled terror attack for five days. they claim that only when the cia came to them and said all right now we resolve the national security concerns now you can go ahead and report it then they said could you wait one more day because the white house wants to get out in front of it. the a.p. said no, we are not going to wait for those reasons. and they believe that the failure to accommodate that

request is what has led to the doj investigation. we will pick it up with you there. if that's true that changes the story entirely and that's next. and i have a massive heart attack right in my driveway. the doctor put me on a bayer aspirin regimen. [ male announcer ] be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. go talk to your doctor. you're not indestructible anymore. ♪ now you can give yourself a kick in the rear! v8 v-fusion plus energy. natural energy from green tea plus fruits and veggies. need a little kick? ooh! could've had a v8. in the juice aisle.

>> megyn: ben shapiro is back with me now. the allegation this is a political moat jation doj seems to stem that old national security concerns had been resolved by the time the a.p. published this and the underlying narrative of the a.p.p. which contradicted a message that had been put out by the white house. can you explain? >> essentially what this report says is that the a.p. had already cleared through the ci apartment the report itself and the report the a.p. printed was not exactly along the administration's line saying that al qaeda had

been crippled. al qaeda was in fact not crippled and the cia had inside information on active plots inside the united states. if this report is true in short, what it looks like that the obama administration going after the phone records is vin particularrive act against a press organization as opposed to an attempt to quash national security leaks lynn, that's what they are suggesting. everything was calm. don't worry about al qaeda. thus leading to the doj investigation. >> i don't think i'm ready to go there yet. what tie agree with you on is that once the story was going to be published there was attempt by the white house to try to manage it. to put john brennan of the cia on tv to talk about it take credit for foiling a plot. that i agree with. i think there is a lot to be learned before you put any -- it is so serious in

the area of national intelligence officials, if it were up to them, the press probably would never have published anything. we are looking at very different world views here. the press wants things out. will cooperate so people don't get hurt. in the view of a lot people in the intelligence community they are happy with nothing former white house officials are suggesting we wouldn't be having a presser if it hadn't been for the a.p. report. we weren't planning on plun public sizing that information. the way we foiled is it is a matter of national security amend why didn't want that out there. coming up breaking news on today's irs hearings in three minutes as chris joins to us talk about the political fallout and president obama shares off hand remark about these controversies. so...how'd it go? well, dad, i spent my childhood living with monks learning the art of dealmaking. you've mastered monkey-style kung fu? no. priceline is different now.

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finding a solution will take all of us. but at coca cola we know when good things happenther to learn more visit coke.com/comingtogether >> megyn: fox news alert. on the obama administration's attempt to tamp down the sandals consuming the white house at this hour over the concern of the potential political fallout over democrats is already growing. brand new hour here of "america live." welcome everyone, i'm megyn kelly. for hours on capitol hill today we watched a remarkable hearing take place as both republicans and democrats grilled the former now former, he is resigning, irs director over why, why that agency gave the green light to tax applications from progressive groups with very little problem while holding up conservative leaning groups for years conservative groups seeking tax exempt status.

before we came on the air today mike kelly from pennsylvania who pressed the now outgoing stephan miller irs commissioner on whether mr. miller appreciated how this business looked to the american people this has to do with highly targeted groups. this reconfirms what the american public believes, this is a huge blow to the faith and trust the american people have in their government. is there any limit to the scope of where you folks can can go? is there anything at all? is there any way that we could ask you. if s. there any question you shouldn't have asked? bid into goodeness how much money do you have in your wallet? who do you get emails from? whose sign do you put up in your front yard? this is a tax question? you don't think that's intimidating? it is sure as hell intimidating. i don't know that i have got any answers from you today and i don't know what mr. george said was great words there is a heck of a lot more that has to come out in this and anybody sit

here today and listen to what you have to say, i am more concerned today than i was before and the fact that you all can do just about anything you want to anybody, you know, you can put anybody out of business any time you want. you talk about you horribly run organization, you are on the other side of the fence, you are not getting that excuse. when the irs comes in you are not allowed to be shoddy, you are not allowed to be run horribly. you are not allowed to make mistakes. you aren't allowed to do one damn thing that doesn't come in compliance if you do you are held responsible right then. i think the american people have seen what's going on right now this is absolutely overreach and outrage for all of america. i yield back. [cheers and applause] mr. griffin is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you. >> megyn: and the applause went on. chris is our fox news digital politics editor and host of power play foxnews.com. applause at the house ways and means committee hearing

has it ever happened before. >> getting rowdy at ways and means. congressman kelly, who, you know, i know a little bit. that is from the heart. that's how he is. that's his deal. and he was speaking there for republicans who, and not just republicans, independents, republicans. >> megyn: not just republicans because sometimes you couldn't tell who was a republican or a democrat today on the questioning. >> when it comes to disdain for the internal revenue service is a disdain subject. what you heard from congressman kelly there and what you have heard with less arter from others today is this: the irs is a hammer. it is designed to be a hammer. to crush down on people who try to skirt tax laws or don't pay their fair share. they are equipped with massive powers to make that possible. therefore, today's bumbling and fumbling i don't

remember. you try that in an audit and see how that goes. >> that's what they are saying. when you start harassing an american citizen over his or her taxes do you take for an answer if it's a corporation we were poorly run. well, we made mistakes mr. miller said we would work with them. i got constituency would reduce people to tears because been so intolerant of mistakes from those on the opposite side of the table from you. so why should would he be any more tolerant of you, mr. miller, and your inability or refusal to provide us with the names of the people who carried out this deed. >> mr. miller is getting off pretty easy. slightly earlier retirement date. is he heading back for sheet cake and commemorative tote bag and off, no doubt, into a career at some law firm in the private sector to do pretty well. he had to endure this day but he will be gonge the question is what remains. what's the political consequence that remains?

>> or perhaps as elliott gold in the next barbra streisand film. >> doesn't he look like it? >> i wasn't going to say anything. >> megyn: it's a serious matter. here is what i want to ask you. president obama gave remarks today suggesting that what we are witnessing right now in washington is really about the d.c. political types and he, the american people are above it all. listen. >> i know it did be frustrating sometimes when it seems like washington's priorities aren't the same as your priorities. i know it often seems like folks down there are more concerned with their jobs than with yours mothers may get distracted by chasing every fleeting issue that passes by, but the middle class will always be my number one focus. period. your jobs, your families, your communities. that's why i ran for president, that's what drives me every day as i step into the oval office. that's what i'm going to keep fighting for over the

next four years. >> well, taps good day for him to get out of town. it's a good day -- i think that government contractor, somebody who does government contracting work, find a friendly audience somewhere and say, look, i don't care about all of this scandal business. i'm focused on putting the middle class back to work. jobs. as you heard before. the president knows two things. one, part of the scandal that will definitely damage him is the part that discredits the idea of a large and powerful government. that part is cooked. in how big and how bad and how deleterious it is to his overall agenda and his effort to undo the reaganism and reembrace the idea of a larger more powerful government is being good. time will tell. but this is going to damage that you tell me whether he is off point on that. use in campaign. anything other than the middle class and job struggle is off page. but, today, i mean, the

gallup poll released tonight said most americans believe that both the situation with the irs and the benghazi investigation warrant continuing investigation. 74% believe the irs matter should be looked into seriously. 64% want benghazi to be looked into further. this is not fox news thing. it's not a washington thing that president obama put it it that's a huge majority of the american people who want focus on benghazi and the irs. >> that's the second part. if he doesn't and start treating it seriously and take serious action to let people know that this matters for him will go from just having a political consequence in the general one in the specific of people in his administration start getting yanked down over this and you saw the beginnings of it in this testimony today. >> megyn: strange to come out and say irs thing is outrageous. it might be illegal and then oh those washington people they are not focused on anything that matters. wait, which is it? all right, good to see you,

chris. >> you you bet. >> megyn: former irs director, is he outgoing, right? sort of like transsignaturing in any event, steve miller, he was a great musician back -- no. it's friday he took a lot of heat today. one of the questions that came up involved his pension and his benefits. remember, he wasn't really fired. he was asked to resign a couple weeks earlier than he had planned to. this came up during questions from new york republican tom reid. listen to some of that. >> as a country lawyer from western new york, you made some comments in your testimony abo partisanship determination. you kept referencing something that i have seen many times in my legal career. at this time. that applies to me that there are additional investigations coming down the pipeline that potentially could uncover such information. isn't that correct? >> that is an accurate statement, sir. >> i will be eagerly awaiting those future investigations i applaud your work and i ask to you continue to do that work.

mr. miller, i just want to stand exactly as we just had identified mr. george numerous people in your organization that you had oversight, ultimate oversight for, his ability to identify those individuals. you didn't identify those individuals management oversight when you became aware of this situation in may of 2012. >> i certainly was aware of my own management chain, yes, sir. >> and so who in your management chain specifically did you talk to about this situation? um, um, after may you mean. >> you said you talked to two people in your management chain. >> i spoke to joseph grant and i'm sure i spoke to lois as well. >> that's all you talked it to. >> i talked to folks who went out and worked on the case and i mentioned ann marks in that regard. >> that was nancy marks? >> yes. >> who was in cincinnati that you orally

disciplined. >> no, no, no. nancy marks is a senior technical advisor who led a team to take a look at this? cincinnati. >> who was the team that you thought may have had something to do with this. >> i apologize. i can give it to you. >> then you said that person was orally disciplined probably wasn't involved in it but there was a potential another employee who was that other employee. >> let me go back. two employees, one of whom was reassigned. one of whom i asked to be orally counseled. the one that was to be orally counseled, they vin formed me, may not have been the right person they pulled all the manager in to talk to them in lieu of an individual they didn't know who was which. >> do you have those names. >> i would have to send those to you. >> i would formally request for the record. >> thank you. mr. young is recognized. >> mr. miller, i want to know why all of this happened. you and ms. learner said over the week you and irs officials started targeting

americans for their political beliefs in march of 2010. that was after observing a surge in applications for status as a 01 c 4. that was your rationale. to support this claim, you both cited increase from about 1500 applications in to 10 to nearly 3500 in 2012. data contained in the ig audit says the targeting began in march 2010 before this uptick. in fact, the audit also says on page 3, that the number of 501 c 4 applications for all of 2010 was actually less than in 2009. mr. miller, you said here today you accept the ig report's finding of fact. >> um. >>um how do you accept the fact what i have laid out no uptick in 501 c 4 applications with your stated motivation for targeting conservative groups. >> i would have to go back and look at the numbers sir and i think there was

uptick. >> you have already indicated that you agreed with the findings of fact in the ig report. it says there was no uptick. >> i don't. >> how do you reconcile this. >> i have got to look at the numbers sir, i can't speak to that. >> you don't agree with the ig report. >> i would have to look at the ig report on that. >> mr. miller, in june of 2011, ms. learner learned about the practice it of targeting conservative groups for compelled disclosure of donor lists and other information. she learned that was going on for more than a year. where upon she claims she attempted to put a stop to it. yet, i have a letter here ms. learn's name. dated march 16, 2012. in that letter she directs a conservative indiana group to comply with a previously sent inappropriate information request under penalty of perjury. i have that request here so one year after she said she stopped this practice, ms. learner sent a letter

demanding the group fulfilling a request she had already determined to be inappropriate. >> megyn: none of this made air. we are going to run much more of this. we will pick it up there after the break to see what happened. stay with us.

>> megyn: fox news alert. i want to let you know that representative dave camp, republican in michigan who chairs the house ways and means committee just came to a camera on capitol hill and commented on steve miller's testimony this morning and said that he believed there was, quote: an arrogance that came across there that was disturbing; end quote. and went on to talk about the omissions that this man made that he believes can rise to a level of wrongdoing. we're going to resume now with some tape of the hearing. this part never made air. it's todd young of indiana resuming his questioning. >> included a demand for donor information this strikes me as peculiar to say the least. it seems to contradict claims that the somebody at the irs tried to stop the harassment in 2011.

further, this indiana group had their 501 c 4 status denied on february 18, 2013. four days later on february 22nd, 2013, their 501 c 4 request was granted. even though they never provided the required information. so after seeing these actions and an approval of an application that looks a lot to me like someone was covering their tracks over that four day period, how can i assure my constituents that employees of the irs aren't targeting conservative groups they disagree with? >> so let me put this in sort of time order because i again, there is some fundamental mashing of issues. there are two issues here. one is the list issue which began about the time you say it did, i believe and one is how we processed the cases. the donor list letter and

i'm not speaking because i don't know that case but the donor list letter issue occurred much later in time it actually occurred i believe and i have to go back and check this. but i believe it occurred after lois had stopped in and stopped the listing, the first issue. the development of those cases was still problematic. we had not gotten to the bottom of that. that's why that would have been the case. i don't have an answer for you on the last piece of that. >> wait a second here. she said she had resolved the situation. she said she had stopped the targeting of conservative groups. a year later she demands a group fulfill a request for the appropriate information. i don't believe you have addressed that issue, sir. you have 30 seconds left to do so. >> i apologize. first youed you know while her signature is on 70,000 applications so let's not personalize this one to ms. lerner.

secondly, and probably more importantly, i mean, i think that, again, my understanding and what i think mr. george has said is that in 2011, june or july, whatever it was, she handled and fixed the list issue. the cases were still in development. the cases needed to be in development. there were issues. we just did a remarkably bad -- >> -- okay. >> time -- >> -- all right, sir. >> it's just curious, i will reiterate, a denial on february 18, 2013, and then a granting four days later. it does look a bit fishy there. we'll have to clarify that. >> time has expired. you have to respond in writing mr. kelly? >> thank you, chairman. mr. george, you have been on the job sings december of 2004; is that correct? >> 2004. >> anything rise to this level before? >> no. nothing. >> can i ask you, why did it take so long from the first time that we knew

this was happening you got the report done the president said just the other day, i think it was yesterday that he just got a look at the report and that's the first time he knew anything about it. >> well, first -- >> -- other than reading it in the papers, i guess. >> are you asking how -- >> -- yeah, have you ever seen that magnitude before? anything of this magnitude before? >> no. >> it's never come up before? >> no, it has not. >> all right. thank you. mr. miller, now, you have been on the job for quite some years years. the current job you are in november 9th, 2012, is that right you just took over as acting commissioner. >> in november of 12, yes. >> okay. >> all right. but before that, one of your jobs, you were the commissioner of tax exempt and government entities division. so you actually were in the job that we're questioning now that group of what was happening there. so would you have been in cincinnati? >> no. >> you were never in cincinnati? >> no. is cincinnati some outpost? >> so, obviously the irs is a nationwide organization.

>> i know i understand that i understand that. >> and i want to tell you, listen, belief me, if you think it's uncomfortable sitting over there. you ought to be a private individual when the irs is across from you questioning. it's uncomfortable for everybody. my question more particularly how does cincinnati get to where they are? how do they develop that strategy and how do they know to go after these certain groups? how do they target those folks? that just couple rookies just showed up didn't really know what they were doing? >> so, again i would point to the tig nor report on what happened. >> i understand that i am hearing -- these are low level people that pushed the wrong button. now, when cincinnati can't figure out, who do they confer with? who is their counsel when they are looking at these entities? back here to d.c.? >> there is two possibilities. >> yes or no does it come back to d.c.? >> yeah. >> all right. so d.c. and cincinnati we pretty well. >> megyn: we will pick it

up again on the opposite side of the break. we have the benefit of hindsight now because this happened right before he we came to air but it was not shown to you. we would like to to show it to you. we think it's interesting and news worthy. tigna is the inspector gener report. more after the break.

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>> >> megyn: picking up where we left off now with congressman kelly of pennsylvania. >> cincinnati we pretty well connected and understanding what is going on. this doesn't come to a great shock of anybody. in fact i wouldn't say it comes for a shock. you know what it does for the american people it establish what is they have feared so often. i have a grandson afraid to get out of bed at night he thinks there is somebody out of the bed going to grab him. most americans feel that way about theist. you get a letter from you folks or a phone call it's with terror. this reconfirms that. you know what? they can do almost anything they want to anybody they

want any time they want. this is very chilling for the american people. now i know that where you are at and you are resigning. you are walking away from it this is not going to go away. this is a pandora's box that is going to eno. can't get the lid back on it i don't believe the white house just found out about this in the news report. the president happened to grab a tv shot or just read mr. george's report and said you know what? anybody heard about this report? i'm just getting a first look at this. shouldn't somebody be responsible? maybe treasury falls in there i'm not sure we understand how that organizational chart works. i'm really concerned i have got to tell you where you are sitting, you should outraged but you are not. the american people should be outraged and they are. and this committee this has nothing to do with political parties. this has to do with highly

targeted groups, this rei don't know firms everything that the american public believes. this is a huge blow to the faith and trust the american people have in their government. is there any limit to the scope of where you folks can go? is there anything at all? is there any way that we could ask you is there any question that you shouldn't have asked? by goodness? how much money do you have in your wallet? who do you get emails from? whose sign do you put up in your front yard? this is a tax question? you don't think that's intimidating? it sure as hell is intimidating. and i don't know that i have got any answers from you today and i don't know that what mr. george has done is great work but you know what? there is a heck of a lot more that has to come out in this and anybody to sit here today and listen to what you have to say i am more concerned today than i was before and the fact that you all can do just about anything you want to anybody, you know, you can put anybody out of business that you want any time you want.

you talk you are a horribly run organization. if you are on the other side of the fence, you are not giving that excuse. and when the irs comes in, you are not allowed to be showedy. you are not allowed to be run horribly. you are not allowed to make mistakes. you are not allowed to do one damn thing that doesn't come in compliance. if you do you are held responsible right then. the american people have seen right now what's going overreach and outrage for all of america. i yield back. [cheers and applause] mr. griffin is recognized for five minutes. [. [ applause ] continues] >> megyn: had to gavel that back in. played that for you at the top of the shore. extraordinary day. those were republicans there because that's the way they tease them up at the end for some reason. honestly, as you listened to in this morning, one of the few times that you couldn't always tell the difference between who was doing the questioning. the republican vs. the democrat there was i couldn't tell rage on both sides of the aisle for the

most part. on what is going on at the irs. what they did. what they admitted they did. and mr. miller in the eyes of the questioners clearly they did not think he acquitted himself very well. he tried to explain his failure to alert congress to all of this when he went before them before by saying well, the inspector general was doing his reported and i knew it would come out but they didn't seem satisfied that that explained his omissions on material questions. he was being asked. okay. just after the break. we're going to talk about. this "wall street journal" columnist kim central is today suggesting that the responsibility for this controversy at the irs rests completely with the president. her argument, that debate fair and balanced next. >> just attacking people without ever disclosing who is behind all these attack ads. you don't know. it could be the oil industry. it could be the insurance

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>> so the question remains, who is responsible for targeting the conservative organizations? so, again, and i think if you look at the tigna

report it answers your question. >> there are no names in the inspector general's report. so i'm asking you, not only as the acting commissioner but as the deputy commissioner over this organization who is responsible for targeting these individuals? >> i don't have names for you, mr. brady. i'm willing to try to find that out. >> megyn: that was republican congressman kevin brady of texas grilling the outgoing irs commissioner stephan miller at today's hearing about the irs's targeting of conservative groups. still no answers to exactly who ordered the action. i mean, he actually said, i don't know. i can't remember. really? there is growing debate whether we already know who is responsible and whether it is the man at the top, president obama. "wall street journal" columnist kim strassel writing even if the president didn't directly order federal officials to target conservative groups, his administration for years, quote: repeatedly suggested, end quote.

that some of these groups were a threat to our country. >> just attacking people. without ever disclose hog is behind all these attack ads. you dent know it could be the oil industry. it could be the insurance industry. it could be foreign corporations. you don't know because they don't have to disclose. that's not threats to democrats that's a threat to democracy. >> i think everybody should be worried about legislative groups that have clouded the legislative process are soon going to get involved in way in electing men and twoism serve in congress. >> if we make the house -- >> megyn: wah-wah. sometimes the sound bites don't play when we want them to. we could have done a sound

bite four minutes with the president and his emissaries. his advisors coming out and ripping on these so-called special interest groups who won't disclose their donors. they are talking about 501 c 4s. the very groups that have been targeted by the irs. joining me now lou dobbs. host of lieu dobbs tonight joe trippi former campaign manager and fox news contributor. 501 c 4s are these campaign organizations. they are not supposed to be devoted entirely to political matters. they were in the crosshairs of the president and many on the left beginning in 2010 in particular. that's exactly when this scheme was hatched at the irs by a, quote: team of specialists that decided even though the law didn't require them to disclose their donors, you heard the president. they won't disclose their donors. they don't disclose, the irs would get to the bottom of it the irs would find out who their donors were and mr. miller tells us today, lou, this was not conducted to the white house at all but the team specialist thought it was doing the right thing. >> if i may say at the

outset, i think that steve miller's testimony today, his appearance before the committee the ways and means committee. the most powerful committee in the congress was repugnant in his arrogance and his insistence that that he would not -- he made it very clear that he was beyond the power of the united states congress. he was not in any answer that he provided. with that said, what we are looking at here is, in my judgment, megyn, without any question, the beginning of an investigation that will be broad-based, it will flow to other committees well beyond ways and means because this is obviously an internal revenue service led by a completely partisan and incompetent leader, a man who is defying congress and defying the right of the american people to know. this is a big deal and chairman dave camp of the ways and means committee today learned that this is

going to be a good part of his schedule for the remainder at least of this year. >> there is no question that the irs is in trouble. they are in trouble. but the question is whether, you know, this was blessed he at the top. we had the former solicitor general who says the fish rots from the top. that's what kim strassel is positing, joe, you are not going to find some smoking gun memo where president obama called up the irs and said do this. in those clips he was doing it his ambassadors were doing it the message he was sending about tea party groups and 501 c 4s, that's what led to this. >> well, look. the president was always against these kind of groups. one of the big problems with democrats during this entire period was the president was urging democrats and progressives not to start these groups and donors not to fund them. and it wasn't until very late in the 2012 process where he finally and i was

angry at him for doing it where he finally caved and said okay, donors start -- create the groups, start forming them and democrats starting playing the game, too. i agree with lou though, that aside, i don't think -- look, the president has campaigned against the nra in the recent gun control debate saying that they had too much power, that they were giving too much money to members of congress. that's not a signal to the irs or the fbi or anybody to go investigate them or audit them. and i think, one, the irs is in trouble. two, i agree with lou. when you look at the committee today as megyn -- as you pointed out hard to tell democrats from republicans. a lot of unity. they are going to get to the bottom of this. and this investigation is going to find out what happened. but i don't think it's going to get to the president or the white house. i believe he -- he was making a political argument that he has been very clear

about from the very beginning of these groups and these citizens united. >> megyn: i think that's the point though that he has been so clear and that maybe some folks in his administration took the message. i mean, as kim strassel points out and we have frank have have and der salute this week and i think he is going to object o'reilly tonight. big romney donor campaigned for romney. no sooner does the obama campaign come out and calm him a person of less than reputable record, that's how they described him on their web site. a wealthy individual with less than reputable record. audited two years of taxes, department of labor informs him audit on cattle ranch. irs informs him of second audit. never audited before. three and four months after president obama's campaign team calls him out as less than represent pew tillable. that's the kind of situation that can trickle

down. >> as we we focus on the ways and means committee today. these are pieces of a much larger hole. this is a systematic conduct on the part of this administration. remember, we are looking at not only the internal revenue service. we are looking at the justice department and it's intrusions on the first amendment rights of the associated press. its writers, it's editors. we are looking at fast and fiduciarious. the attorney general, the top law enforcement officer in the country held in contempt of congress. we are talking about almost nine months later. the american people have not been given a direct and full answer as to what happened in benghazi and why. it is not an accident. this is the president of the united states it is his administration. he is accountable and for crying out loud he said with a straight face that he wanted senator chuck schumer to step forward and introduce again the shield

law for journalists which is that he is saying to the entire country without so much as a single blink or wink that he is asking schumer to protect journalists from his justice department so he can't do them what he has already done to the associated press. this is -- we are looking at a farce that is being plagued with the values, the traditions and the laws of the united states. he has declared war on those values. >> megyn: the question is can he get past this accusation, that, look, you set the message, you set the tone without firing everyone involved in this to a material degree at the irs? lois lerner what is still doing there? what about the people who hatched the scheme, per at the traited the scheme hatched a red flag about doing this. >> there is only two people that he appoints in the irs. the commissioner who he is now gone and i believe the

chief counsel. >> megyn: he knows some people. and the president has got the power of the podium and he can call for more people being fired. >> don't forget the treasury a second. >> he can call on it but can't do it. actually, this is one of the interesting things about this that i think has to be solved here. they are so insulated that congress, ways and means committee, the president of the united states cannot fire lois lerner if he wanted to. >> he can call for it though. >> he can call for it they can call for it. sandy called for it again today. the process of finding cause, finding her responsible for that cause and then firing her has to go through because she is -- because of the laws that have been put in place. >> megyn: maybe let's look at this woman who is sarah hall ingraham. >> same with her. >> ran the program and now running the obama plan program for the government. i have got to run. kelly's court next.

quick final word, lou. >> this is a mess that's going to get bigger. this mess goes straight to the heart of this president's decision as to where to take this country. >> megyn: great to see you guys. >> lou always gets thewill final word.ei >> sorry,gh joe. to help minimize blood sugar spikes. [ male announcer ] glucerna hunger smart. a smart way to help manage hunger and diabetes.

>> megyn: big developments today in court what may be the biggest yet hail mary attempt winning freedom. the former defense attorney the guy who defended him in the case that he lost and

now in prison for yale galanter stepped down from the witness stand. he has been defending himself all day as simpson' new legal team argued that galanter failed to give simpson a proper defense in 2008 case. alyssia acuna outside the courthouse in vegas. >> quite a moment with yale galanter on the witness stand as he was arguing with one of simpson's current attorneys. the judge finally stopped him and quietly said to him you can please stop making your own objections? and galanter apologized and said he understood the rules and moved on. now, when his testimony began this morning, he said he was very uncomfortable and really didn't want to be here. is he disputing just about every point that o.j. simpson and his team of lawyers are making, claiming that when o.j. told him about some sort of sting operation to get stolen items back, galanter says he told o.j. to call the police. simpson testified this week it was under galanter's guidance that he hatched this plan that ultimately landed him in prison. o.j. claims he did not know

his cohorts had guns that night. go lander says o.j. not only knew about the weapons, but asked his buddies to bring them. despite all of this, this is what he had to say about o.j., listen. >> prior to o.j. being convicted and even after him being convicted my fondness for him. i mean, it was just beyond. you know, i just felt a genuine, genuine closeness. and i felt just devastated that we lost. >> galanter also put some of the blame on his co-counsel, grasso and, megyn, expect the possibility of hearing from gas so he later on today as a rebuttal witness as well as the possibility of o.j. simpson, again. megyn? >> craziness. thank you. kelly's court back in session. former prosecutor now defense attorney. david wols defense attorney. they join me now to discuss it. he gets on the material issue. biggest issue of the case.

did you get a plea bargain offered to you by the prosecution and fail to communicate that to you to your client. that's the crux of o.j.'s case. could get a reversal here. here with is what was said at sound bite number one. >> a >> significant amount of prison time. i told him i didn't think oj would go for that. went back to oj after the meeting and told him and he said no how, no way. >> well, okay, so, now, yale will say he did actually present the offer but it's no big surprise that oj turned it down. i think there's another issue here, megyn, did yale galanter tell oj to go get his stuff. if he did that was a conflict of interest and never should have been trying the case, and that could win this for oj, too. >> megyn: really? what did you make of yale? >> if he told him that, give a client some advice and results

in the client's arrest, you have an irreparable conflict of interest, and that should have been declared and the trial should have never taken place unless he had new counsel. >> megyn: you've been drinking the kool-aid. ♪ ♪

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>> megyn: we saw oj testify that yale told him he could never be convicted. i got it, oj, i got it. is that relevant at all? >> no. what is relevant is yale galanter was not licensed to practice law in nevada. the judge lit him do it anyway. there were two other attorneys representing oj, the nevada attorney, and a third attorney representing a codefendant, who are going to support oj's contention that yale galanter

was paidessively and didn't want oj to testify because he would have said that yale told me to get me stuff on my own. >> megyn: what a shock, lawyer focused on money. yale says the reason he didn't have oj testify was he thought the evidence was overwhelming and the other codefendant's testimony about oj telling them to bring guns would have been devastating. >> that's not going to be considered malpractice. he can strategize. i think there's another featherrer in the prosecution's cap here. yale was not subpoenaed to give his testimony today. he has shown up with handshake on his own accord and that risky for yale in the sense that there are some ethical concerns here with him testifying against a former client. former clients are like ex-boyfriends. you feel compelled to save them from himselfs, and he could get himself in trouble. if the judge believes yale, oj is done, and that is a

feather -- >> the burden of proof no question, but if the judge is on the fence, all he is asking for is a new trial north his release. so we'll see. >> megyn: good luck with that. we'll be right back. [ engine revs ] ♪ [ male announcer ] just when you thought you had experienced performance, a new ride comes along and changes everything. ♪ the 2013 lexus gs, with a dynamically tuned suspension and adjustable drive modes. because the ultimate expression of power is control. this is the pursuit of perfection.

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>> megyn: just in time for father's day, a great gift idea. "the new york times" best seller, glowses of man

manhattan. it's a great read by a great guy. just happens to be my husband who was on the show when it came out. you can gift it on amazon.com and i personally guarantee you are going to enjoy it. thanks for watching. here's "studio b." >> greg: welcome to "studio b." i'm in for shep. we begin this hour with the man about to leave the top job at the irs facing a relentless, brutal, bipartisan grilling today on capitol hill. the big question, though, who else is responsible for the agency's targeting of controversitive group -- considerative groups? steven miller and another top official forced to resign. miller said his agents made, quote, unquote, foolish mistakes and provided horrible customer service. he called those mistakes intolerable. >> as acting commissioner i want to apologize