washington where the obama administration is now facing increasing questions about what the white house knew and when it knew it. when it comes to irs targeting of conservative groups. i'm megyn kelly. a white house news briefing is about to get underway. jay carney expected to be grilled after changing his story. white house admits that the senior staff know prior to the dated they previously revealed but they actually consulted with the treasury department which oversees the irs on the strategy for how this would be unveiled and told to the public. when white house press secretary originally commented on the matter back on may 13th he was asked if anybody was aware and he said, quote, no. the white house counsel's office was alerted april 22nd of this year. only about the fact that the

i.g. was finishing his review about matters about the office in cincinnati. that is all they were informed as sort of normal heads up. we don't have access to it. that is all we were informed. they are doing some review of the office in cincinnati. that is it! a week later as reporters dug deeper carney admitted that the white house counsel knew about the i.g. report but so did the white house chief of staff. so did senior staffers at the white house. still they maintain the president they say was never told prior to seeing it on nice. then yesterday, jay carney comes out and reveals that not only did the white house counsel's office, chief of staff and senior staffers at the white house all know about that i.g. report well prior to news reports about it but they

actually had been coordinated weigh the irs about the strategy for how to reveal it to the public and discuss the fact that it would say the irs had been systematically targeting conservative groups. we go from all they did was give the white house counsel's office a heads-up and that is it, to something about cincinnati, to we knew, chief of staff knew, senior staffers knew. coordination how it would be rolled out. lois lerner to make a speech and planned to question the american bar association. then the world would find out from there. chris is politics editor. i mean, describe carney says look, i'm revealing information as it comes to me. dana perino was on this program not long ago, someone is not well serving mr. carney.

she was talking about benghazi. who would let them get that far ahead where would under write the talking points. now, we have them, all they told us that, all we knew was the white house counsel was informed and i.g. report. she knew, senior staffers knew. not only did they know but coordinated weigh treasury and how it could be rolled out. i mean, again, how are we supposed to trust what comes out of this administration what jay carney is going to tell us when how information is revealed? >> to dana perino's point he is being poorly served. they are keeping him out of the loop. he may have been given misfog. his credibility is low ebb and he a life and career that will go beyond this moment and this time. he lives in this town and has

colleagues here. he can only be embarrassed by the white house so many times. that is the rule for press secretaries. hey, they didn't tell me. i was out of loop, but this isn't just this one. this benghazi as you pointed out and the willful shading of public releases on this for political purposes. so he had to go back on that. then, there is all this irs stuff which has been errors and contradictions. >> megyn: bless you, it sounds fancy. >> a lot in succession that you have that where you have the stories changing and every time it changes it gets worse. then you have them going to the department of justice targeting reporters and including our friend james rosen with heavy-handed tactics. this relates to the administration's credibility to dealing with the press and

talking to the presents. jay carney is standing at greyhound bus depot who is going to back over him next? >> megyn: it's not just carney. you got the treasury head, jack lew, coming out and originally he said, i only learned about the i.g. investigation from the news reporters reports. he learned it from cable news. the head of treasury, okay? i learned about it from the news. then he admitted in testimony last week, well, maybe i learned about it in march, maybe not in may along with the general public. maybe it was actually march when the inspector general had a meeting about the report. then the inspector general testified himself that he testified actually i didn't meet with mr. lew but i met with senior officials at treasury including the deputy secretary and the general counsel and told them about this last spring prior to the election.

believe me it wasn't me and mr. george doing this report. i let my superiors at treasury know. so you got lew saying, huh, i don't know anything about it. president obama, saying, i don't know anything about it. except for the senior staffers but they only, know, they coordinate with treasury -- it's a credibility issue. [ laughter ] >> megyn: now they come out and wanted of want us to believe other. we didn't know doj targeting the associated press. we didn't know about increased demands at benghazi. there is supposed to be some trust between the american people and their government. >> this administration is way out of step now. all of these stories and all of these contradictions. one thing on the jack lew things. you and i talked about the dangers of putting a political person in the treasury.

that hasn't been the case since the '30s and not like jack lew, former congressional aide but generally somebody from the financial world. one of the reasons is we like treasury to be squeaky cleanup. they got the money. we like all that stuff. putting a political figure, a partisan, a hard line partisan some would say in the treasury was questionable move. now that you see treasury embroiled in the scandal and reversal and all that stuff, you start to see all the president obama's predecessor back to roosevelt had a different idea about treasury. >> megyn: and it is hurting them. look at the polls. latest poll questions whether obama administration were involved in targeting conservative groups, 37% say

they knew it. they knew all about it. 29% not only they knew about it but they were behind the operation. if my math, 66% of the american people they believe they knew bit orchestrated it and 24% they weren't involved at all. people are not buying it. i'll give you the last word. >> in that same poll there was asked the question about, do you believe the government, your civil liberties are at risk from the federal government. it was like two to one. americans are very concerned about what is going on. if they can't stop the bleeding and can't start speaking speaking with authority and backtracking this crisis will only deepen. >> megyn: we'll see. what jay carney says today and today's version of the story will be. chris, thank you. today the house tried to get to the bottom of the irs controversy. one of the things the white

house treasury that oversees the irs one of the things is how are we going to tell them? this isn't good. what the inspector general found. the woman at the center of this case in part, one of the people is lois lerner. she was in charge of that irs group that oversees applications for tax exempt status. it was the people that worked for her. maybe her as well, we don't know. maybe she as well was doing it that was doing it to conservative groups. by the way, this is person that testified before the house, i was and means committee on wednesday. they asked her about this. what the targeting and she did nothing. what? no? two days later she is the one who plants the question with the reporter and says, we apologize for it. so congress is ticked off and more democrats are saying she should be fired. she is house oversight, issa's

committee and made a brief statement before asserting the fifth to not incriminate herself. then she refused to answer any more questions. >> i have not done anything wrong. i have not broken any laws. i have not violated any irs rules or regulations. i have not provided false information to this or any other congressional committee. after very careful consideration i decided to follow my counsel's advice and not testify or answer any of the questions today. >> megyn: after a while back and forth, one argued that she waived her right to fifth amendment by issuing an opening statement, she was ultimately dismissed and quickly walked out of the room. in a few moments we'll speak to one of the lawmakers that wanted to question ms. lerner about the

spectacular we saw this morning. dramatic details about how powerful the tornado was. as many as 600 atomic bombs. the twister was ef-5 strongest storm possible. john? >> reporter: good afternoon to you. we got an update from the medical examiner's office just a short time ago. death toll currently is holding steady at 24, but an update ten of those dead are children. two of those infants. we did find out the seven students that perished at plaza towers elementary school did not drown as first reported indicated. rather they were asphyxiated when the building fell on top of them and could longer breathe.sg to pick up what is left of their lives and figure out how to go on. we met rick brown. he was actually out of town when

the tornado hit. his son chad was at home. he went through the 1999 tornado but this time it struck a bull's-eye. he is trying to figure out what to do next and make sense of all of this. here is what he told me. >> i had a real good talk with life about all the difficulties and problems. it's about meeting and overcoming and starting over. >> reporter: those are stories you hear all across this part of oklahoma as people all know too well what tornadoes are like. we ran into a number of people who said they might rebuild the house but they are not going to rebuild it where it came down. >> megyn: the irs official that ran the office that was targeting conservative groups is now invoking her constitutional right to stay silent.

why is she doing that? why not just tell the truth? has she been offered immunity. why wouldn't they tell the truth? that is next.

>>. >> megyn: one of our top stories irs on the hot seat for targeting conservative groups. today the director of the division of the wrongdoing made a brief opening statement before she chose to assert her fifth amendment rights not to incriminate herself. even though she also insists she did nothing wrong and nothing criminal. >> i have not done anything wrong. i have not broken any laws. i have not violated any irs rules or regulations. i have not provided false information to this or any other congressional committee. after very careful consideration

i've decided to follow my counsel's advice and not testify or answer any of the questions today because i'm not asserting my right not to testify, people will assume i have done something wrong. i have not. one of the basic functions of fifth amendment is to protect innocent individuals and that is protection i'm invoking today. >> we should run this like a courtroom, mr. cummings said. she waived her fifth amendment right. you don't get to tell your story and not be subjected to cross-examination. she waived the right of fifth million privilege by issuing an opening statement. she ought to stand here and answer our questions. [ applause ] >> megyn: congressman john mica is member of the government reform committee. representative, thank you for

being here. your feelings on first of all where they left off whether she waived her fifth amendment privilege by making an opening statement they would be serving to her but not subjecting herself to questioning? >> i think trey was right. i think she did try to get her points across and then she exited and exercised her fifth amendment rights. now i'm not an attorney. i can't sort that out. we will be called back and she will be held accountable. with a irs has done is an audit. we are doing an investigation. as you heard the inspector general say there may be in the future criminal referrals. >> megyn: her lawyer says she hasn't committed any crimes, made any misrepresentations but she has no choice of asserting the fifth amendment right. we played on the soundbite from

john boehner saying, we can talk all you want who is getting fired. i want to know who is going to jail. does her lawyer and ms. lerner that she might be facing criminal penalties and might not be best to speak to you guys? >> obviously, she has a lot of questions that have to be answered. i can tell you she will be held accountable. we already have some testimony she gave an interview to the inspector general. we'll review those. we'll go back. she will be held accountable. on numerous occasions she responded to congress, she did not tell the whole truth or the whole story. she misled or lied to congress. that is fairly evident. that is one of the reasons why she didn't want to come under questions before the committee today. >> megyn: mere here is my question. in the wake of john boehner and we know that eric holder has a criminal investigation underway now and john boehner is saying

who is going to jail, should somebody offering ms. lerner immunity so she can come out and tell the truth, tell the whole story. how did it get started. who ordered it. how high did it go. when it resumed ms. lerner tried to shut it down. why not offer immunity so we can get there? >> again, i don't know if immunity is the way to get to the truth. we're going to call in -- we're going to call in other people who were involved at different levels. as the hearing was under way, we took depositions from some people that went down there to see what was actually going on. she led the office. today i learned she has a history of targeting some groups when she worked at the federal elections commission. we saw she got bonuses of

$40,000 and huge salary while some of this is going on. a lot of questions unanswered that have to be answered. then who was accountable -- you are not going to put this on some irs official as i said today and questioned the inspector general that gathered around the water cooler in the cincinnati office and said, who are we going to target this week. that is what they would have you believe took place. we will get to the bottom of responsibility but it has to be done in an orderly fashion and witnesses and get the facts. >> megyn: two rogue employees out of cincinnati. >> if you believe that, i got a bridge in brooklyn i want to sell you. >> megyn: thank you so much for being here. one of the most dramatic stories of the irs political targeting that we heard involved the woman that founded a group voter fraud, it's called true to

vote. after she applied for tax exempted status the family got attention from the f.b.i., occupational and safety health administration -- on and on. she'll be here live with her story. i don't make any decisions about who to hire without going to angie's list first. you'll find reviews on home repair to healthcare written by people just like you. with angie's list, i know who to call, and i know the results will be fantastic. angie's list -- reviews you can trust. your doctor will say get smart about your weight. that's why there's glucerna hunger smart shakes.

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>> megyn: he's back, anthony weiner making it official today. he resigned after a sexting scandal now wants to be the city's next mayor. trace gallagher live with that

story. >> reporter: not only is he back he's got a brand-new twitter account. saying like single payer health insurance with no insurance and making sure that every public school child has a kindle reader. there are six other democrats that he would face and polls show he is running ahead of most. he does have a healthy war chest of $4.8 million. but recent poll that half of new york city voters would not consider him. here is more of his youtube video announcing his run. >> look, i made big mistakes and let a lot of people down. i learned tough lessons. i have been fighting for the middle-class. i hope i get a second chance to work for you. >> reporter: clearly, his career imploded after racy pictures emerged. first he said it was hacked and

this picture came out and then he backtracked, he said it is me. he recently said he can't guarantee no more pictures would emerge. that would be for an interesting mayor's race. it's unclear how he plans to handle the media but probably not like this. >> i'll ask the question. just tell me how is this fair? >> we came this close to not being able. i was so hoping to get in it. he spent the last couple years consulting for big time corporations. >> megyn: the long-haired segment version of him. >> when haven't you been pregnant. >> megyn: i hate it old tape of me when i was pregnant but i'm pregnant again. i will say for anthony weiner, in the difficult end to the

congressional career he faced. he sent me a beautiful note when my daughter was born. the guy, he's got heart. >> reporter: got heart? >> megyn: we'll leave it at that. thanks, trace. >> coming up new court documents raising questions about the obama's relation with the media. eric holder seizing records from several fox news phone lines as part of a broader leak investigation. we'll take a look at the latest evidence and ask a panel of reporters whether they think the new pressure is part of a scheme against the media. and attorneys for the philadelphia abortion doctor speak out today in the first cable interview. you will see it live as the lawyer reacts to the verdict. we will ask what his client's state of mind is one week after

receiving a life sentence. don't miss this. kermit gosnell's lawyer is here with me. from the destruction in oklahoma we get an update what begin as a tragic story. a couple lost their home and their dog during the devastating tornado in oklahoma. the his owner was on the show yesterday. >> one of our neighbors said that 15 to 20 minutes after the tornado came through, there were people going house to house and some of them had dogs and leashes, they saved what they could. they knocked out their window and we're hoping somebody did that in our neighborhood and found sugar and keep her safe for us right now.

>>. >> megyn: fox news alert. first it was the a.p.'s phone records including cellphone records of certain reporters and then was james rosen's emails. now, newly uncovered department of records shows the department of justice seized several fox news lines and phone lines of mr. rosen's parents. it's part of a leak investigation. shannon bream is live in washington with the latest. >> reporter: we knew the government had gotten access to personal accounts and tracked his movement at the state department via his building pass. now, they cast a much wider net.

in a court filing dated october 13, 2011, they detail numerous pieces of evidence it had collected including scores of phone records that have area codes and exchanges that match up to many fox news hard lines and cellphones. in redacted version we can't see the final four numbers but they do match up to phone lines that wind up to our work spaces, pentagon and state department. it shows the justice department gathered phone numbers to fox news management but it's impossible without the full phone number who the doj tracked. house members came out to proposed media shield bill and specifically talked about rosen's case. here a democratic from new york. >> the executive branch, i don't care who the president is or which party, executive branch cannot be its own judge. if they want to say that they

have to get information, they have to interview journalists or wav because of national security reasons, someone is going to die let them convince a court of that. >> reporter: in an affidavit in rosen's indication, they accused him of committing a crime but also asked for the records to be sealed he believed that the subject of the search warrant knew about it, meaning james, they might be flight risks. >> megyn: knowing james, have to laugh. i mean that with all love for james. is this administration out of control when it comes to crackdowns on the free press? judy miller is a pull lids are prize winner and jan aruba seven a blogger and former attorney and kirsten powers is is a columnist for the daily beast. james rosen, he is criminal and flight risk written all over

him. the point i make in raising a joke what is a serious subjected, this is farce. this f.b.i. affidavit in support of getting his records and fox news records without any notice to the other side so they go do it, they had to do it without any lawyer coming in. the question is whether that is designed campaign as part of a larger effort to silence the media that our critical of this administration, judy? >> i think there is broader question and excellent one you've already asked, is the government making a very new argument here by attempting to criminalize reporting itself. in the search warrant, the government said we believe that mr. rosen in soliciting information from his alleged source, was fully conspiring with him to violate the

espionage act of 1917. that an extraordinary claim! i don't know many first amendment judges or people who studied this think they've ever heard this before. this is an extraordinary and radical interpretation of law. >> megyn: and they on used it to get such widespread access to k abrams. most prominent lawyer on first amendment issues. he called the accessory theory just dangerous, unprecedented,

he believes that this would be impediment to the media. it's never been tried before. none of this has been tried by the nixon administration, not the bush administration. the reason why we have certain guidelines within doj, is so that they will narrow, they will come to the news organization involved. they will discuss, first of all voluntarily records. no one asked them to turn over any records, but they never asked. so they go in. they churn out a new legal theory, accessory to leaking. they do this wide dragnet. it's of course, it's chilling to media. it's casting a spell not only on the media but their sources. it's the sources, understand, every time they pick up a phone to talk to a journalist, phone number will be traced and conversation will be intercepted. who would ever come to the media >> megyn: we don't have the last

four digit it's of lines and looks like mr. and mrs. rosens lines but all the writing is on the wall. this is position you are in kirsten when they don't give you any notice and you are getting information from third wearth and you are learning your reporter had all the records searched from a report from the "washington post". >> yeah. they have been from the get-go, anybody at fox knows that quite well. they came right out of the gate if the first year and went into a campaign of de left hand legitimize us on and that was the word. it was not legitimate. it was chilling language to come from an administration. actually they can't handle one media outlet that has any dissentor criticism. it shouldn't be surprise.

if you look at the broader way. they created all kinds of legal theories to justify what they have done, whether whether assassinating american citizen. they didn't ask that if they could do it on american soil. they are completely unaccountable and meant to chill dissent so make people afraid. that is the whole point of what happened to the a.p. and the whole point to james rosen. if you are going to talk to reporter, we're watching you. we may even prosecute you. >> megyn: you better shut up. i wanted to ask you, it was one thing in the media when it was just fox news. talking out radio hosts and so on and at that point the press corps did ob object, you can't exclude one news organization. now, it's not just fox. we've seen cbs, cheryl atkinson

get criticized and a.p. get records searched. they seem to be paying more attention. >> they do. but in defense of the administration, this is point that isn't made very often, this president and his his administration has an obligation to protect security information. we are living in a post-9/11 world. yes the government is going to take measures to crack down on leakers when information involving sources is compromised, but the issue is was the search warrant and the subpoena issued here commensurate with the leak. >> megyn: i was at the inauguration of barack obama when he stood up we don't have to sack create fights our libtsd our ideals in protection of national security. that was a reference to his predecessor, george bush. now, he is at the helm, first amendment and freedom of the

press, that seems to be not as important to him when it comes to national security. there is a balance that can be struck. are they striking the right one. >> we have neither. we have the boston bombing. he looked the other way when assad uses chemical weapons he isn't doing a job job on national security. if there is some trade he is not keeping his end of the bargain. frankly his entire attitude, he doesn't know about this, this is all the justice department. this is part of his new game which is me in charge of the government? me, president of the united states? that is just outrageous. if he is president of the united states he has to tell the just department to return to the procedure that every administration has followed up to now. he hides behind jay carney or he hides behind some other spokesperson. i think this is also contributing to the real frustration of the press, the

changing answers. disclaiming responsibility for everything. i think people have had it. >> megyn: does somebody go to held other or his spokesperson, how many have you listened to? how many have had phone records subpoenaed without our knowledge? >> eric holder was asked how many subpoenas he signed off and he said he didn't know. that would suggest they exist but it's on too hard to keep track of. i want to say, given the idea that the administration pursues leakers is not entirely a accurate. they pursue whchbs that is calling -- whistleblowers. when information is leaked to benefit the president, these people are not pursued. is there an investigation to leaked the osama bin laden raid? i am not aware of that. we have to keep it clear what

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>>. >> megyn: in testimony this week former irs commissioner continued in his refusal to name names as to who orchestrated the targeting of conservative groups. my next guest it absolutely

needs to move on, but it goes much further than what has revealed on. katherine is president of true to vote determined to ride out voter fraud. cath ring, thanks so much for being here. you are the woman whose story that was week by a texas congressman, who spoke of not only irs inquiries and audits but visits from the atf, visits from f.b.i. osha. five f.b.i. inquiries and one f.b.i. visit and one atf visit. one osha visit. one audit and personal irs audit all you had had the nerve to do what? >> apparently after i had the nerve to file a tax exemption application with the irs for true to vote. >> megyn: you are a normal citizen? >> once upon a time. >> megyn: then you and your

husband, you started an organization, a company in your garage. then you got a little political because, we can improve things in this country after the 2008 election. saw things that concerned you. then came true to vote. that is your organization. now gotten a lot of attention. had you ever had any trouble with these organizations prior to submitting this? >> no, when i look at the time line of events, that is the thing that makes it so glaringly obvious -- there has been a change somewhere. we have been in business for nearly 20 years. prior to filing this application some three years ago, we have had no involvement with any government agency other than file a yearly tax returns. upon filing, everything changed. >> megyn: they mentioned the f.b.i. coming to your place of business repeatedly and atf because you have the capability of producing weapons parts but

it's not something you do? >> correct. it's actually two separate story lines. f.b.i. actually came to the facility where we have our nonprofit operations. they were inquiring about someone who had come to one of our programs. that kind of took a turn after they determined we really didn't know about the person that came to the program. then they begin calling and following up and asking if there was any new news to report. that went on for a period of time. the atf is a different deal because involved in our private business. we do have a license to manufacture gun component parts but we have never done so. atf has authorization to come and do an audit. >> megyn: the interesting thing they never bothered you before. we're going to take a break, but we know now they have admitted they were targeting conservative groups like true to vote for

extra scrutiny. we'll show you mountain of paperwork that made you turn around. if they are doing retaliatory audits or sharing information with other agencies, it brings it to whole new level.

>>. >> megyn: back with me is president of true to vote. so they asked you hundreds of questions in connection with application for tax exempt status, including over tweet and email you have ever written. they gave you one week to furnish this around? >> yes. >> megyn: do you still have your tax exempt status? >> no, we're no further along as july 2010. we still waiting. the picture you are showing,

that is one round of questions. we've gone through four. >> megyn: do you believe the other efforts, the visits by atf osha and f.b.i. were related and do you believe this is a course of intimidation? >> you know, i don't want to believe that, but when you look at the time line of events. it's almost impossible to make any other assumption. it's statistically incon viaable that would happen in such a short period of time when it never happened before. we hope to get the bottom of this and we filed a lawsuit against irs against unlawful actions. our goal through discovery who knew what and when and who told whom what. it just doesn't add up no one in this information doesn't know anything before it is announced in the press. >> megyn: and it's not

political -- your thoughts? >> i would disagree. >> molly: catherine, good luck to you. >> thank you. >> megyn: once you get the lawyers involved they file a lawsuit, sometimes things can move a little quicker in terms of getting answers. as the top irs chief invokes the fifth amendment in this investigation into the irs we will ask the former attorney general of united states michael mukasey whether she had had that tha right and whether it goes to lerner claims that she never did anything wrong. kermit gosnell's attorney general is moments away. shakes s made for people with diabetes. that's why there's glucerna hunger smart shakes. they have carb steady, with carbs that digest slowly to help minimize blood sugar spikes. and they have six grams of sugars.

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agreement. >> fox news alert, frustration and disbelief at the new hearings into the irs targeting of conservative groups at the irs official at the center of controversy appears before congress and refuses to answer any questions based on the fifth amendment. i'm megyn kelly. lerner is the director of the unit for singing out conservative groups and long delays of application for tax exempt status. today she insist said she did nothing wrong. then she refused to say anything more. that did not go over well with some lawmakers. >> i have not done anything wrong. i have not broken any laws.

i have not violated any irs rules or regulations and i have not provided false information to this or any other congressional committee. i've been advised by my counsel to assert my constitutional right not to testify or answer questions related to the subject matter of this hearing. after very careful consideration i have decided to follow my counsel's advice and not testify or answer any of the questions today. >> mr. cummings said we should run this like a courtroom. she just testified. she just waived her fifth amendment right to privilege. you don't get to tell your side of the story and not be subjected to cross-examination. that is is not wait it works. she waived her right to the fifth amendment privilege by issuing an opening statement. she ought to stand here and answer our questions. >> the gentle lady was tha departed was entitled to assert her fifth amendment. there can be no question we have

to respect additionally that her assertion is not to be viewed or used during this hearing to make any determination plus or minus as to actions that were taken. >> megyn: that was capitol hill today. mike has the latest on the ongoing hearings. >> reporter: many lawmakers have been asking who outside the irs was aware of this targeting and when. neil rowland number two at treasury department says he was told last year that the inspector general was going to take a look at the possibility of targeting, but rowland says he didn't know the details about until ten days ago and offered this assessment. >> there is no indication that treasury was involved and treasury only learned of the facts that the idea of conducting a review after the unacceptable conduct had already ended. >> reporter: they are trying to

figure out who was responsible targeting conservative agencies. one went against the former irs visits on 118 visits to the white house and douglas shulman discussed to targeting there. >> are you sure you didn't talk to anyone at the white house about this issue? >> about singling out certain groups for certain scrutiny. >> that is what we're talking about? >> no. >> after 118 visits i you are sure you this didn't bring it it up with anybody at the white house? >> not to my memory. it won't be appropriate. i certainly believe i did not have any conversations. >> let's take a live look at the hearing which is four and a half hours old being led by chairman darrell issa. the irs has told congress it conducted its own internal review a year ago which revealed

a substantial bias against conservative groups but a house committee aide says it doesn't appear any irs employees were punished at that point. >> megyn: virtually everyone still has their job. mike, thanks. >> for more on this now, i'm joined by michael mukasey former attorney general under george w. bush. let's start with ms. lerner, they had been advising to plea the fifth, as well. there have been open threats of criminal prosecuteness this case. but how do we get ms. lerner a full accounting of what went down at the irs? >> i suppose she could be invited in to give a profer, off the record profer to what she would say if she has given immunity. what she says can't be used against her. then she could be compelled to testify. if she refuses to give a profer, i suppose they could confer and

immunity on her. she would then have to testify. >> megyn: that removes the ability to use the fifth amendment? >> right. >> megyn: we had repeated appearances before the committees on capitol hill and she has said nothing, even when questioned on this is this matter. she failed to disclose repeatedly to these lawmakers. which is one reasons they are ticked off at her. now, they reveal in a report that her agency was doing this stuff. and fifth amendment, not going to tell you anything. they can't get anybody to name names. one guy, miller, maybe i'll do it off camera. what? don't we have a right to know who did it? >> congress has authority and responsibility and would exercise it on camera or off camera or in camera if necessary.

they can confer immunity on need it. if she needs ui minute she can get it. it may be a bigger political question. they may want to resolve it that way. >> megyn: what do you make of some folks calling for a special prosecutor. this is not breaking down on party lines. some republicans think it's a bad idea, some democrats think it's a good idea. it's not clear to me. >> i think its lousy idea. i've never been a fan of special prosecutors and particularly in the system. special prosecutors are not independent of the executive. >> megyn: so they would answer to eric holder? >> they would answer to the president. they may not have to adhere to procedures in the justice department but ultimately they would answer to the president. he has the executive authority. so the notion they have some independence is a myth. >> megyn: so wait to handle this is let the congressional hearings play out? >> yes. >> megyn: because it's a

political matter, doj is doing the investigation? >> and ironically if you decide to have a criminal investigation i would think that perhaps the proper entity to investigate is the civil rights division of the justice department which has been charged politicizing and enforcing law and would have an excellent opportunity to redeem itself and get out from those charges if they conducted an impartial investigation. >> megyn: let's switch gears and talk about associated press and james rosen and twice in two weeks, reports that the doj eric holder has gotten reporters' phone records, in some instances cellphone records, rosen's parents records. both times was egregious security leak and we had to do it without notice. >> there are two separate cases. there are regulations in the code of federal regulations within the manual in how the

justice department is supposed to approach to get telephone reports of reporters. one thing they are supposed to exhaust other remedies. secondly they have to frame the subpoena as narrowly possible and third they are supposed to negotiate when the news entity involved or reporter involved, unless doing so would compromise the investigation. that is their assertion. back it up, i can't see how it would. the investigation with respect to fox had to do with -- a leak about a confidential operation within the c.i.a. which they foiled a plot to put a bomb aboard an airliner. plot was over.

the person i gather was out already. so the question i suppose is whether that person could function or not. if the person could not have continued to function, there wasn't any national security issue left. they nonetheless proceeded to go on. >> megyn: let me ask you this: how big a deal is it in the department of justice when you were there, how big of a deal to go after the records, home phones, cellphones, possibly parental phones, internal fox news phones, records of journalists qovg administration covering this administration? >> closest i came is to get a subpoena a reporter for a grand jury investigation. it was very, very difficult. we were very circumspect. we had to negotiate with the reporter and negotiate with the entity he worked for. we had to negotiate with his

lawyers obviously and it didn't get time i was there. it's a very delicate procedure and everybody knows it. >> megyn: what do you make of the separate case of them looking, suggesting james rosen is a criminal for doing his job as a reporter and seeking out information from a source? >> that is incredible. what is more incredible they got somebody to sign that. they went to a magistrate judge. these are jv judges, they are appointed by the court but he signed a search warrant based on assertions that weren't justified. they already knew who the leaker was. >> megyn: they already identified him. >> they didn't neat it. and yet a warrant was signed. >> megyn: why did they do it? what is going on here? >> i'm not clinically trained so i can't get inside their minds. >> megyn: you've held the post.

that serious obligation when you be attorney general. >> this looks to be about controlling the flow of information. if you make it difficult for reporters to gather information, you make it hazardous for people to disclose information, then necessarily the only information that gets out is information that comes from the government. that is not the way it ought to be. >> megyn: michael mukasey, thank you sir. we are following breaking developments in the boston bombing investigation. f.b.i. shooting and killing a man who is being questioned over his links to one of the suspects. we'll have a live report and gosnell attorney is here live in his first interview in moments. [ male announcer ] remember the happy days...

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white house correspondent, ed henry. the president is committed to defending to freedom of the press, he suggested whether or not the president wants to take a position on the ongoing investigations, he may want to, at the very least, let eric hold are how he feels. watch it. >> you say the president feels so strongly the press freedoms, why not take it from the attorney general from the president that i'm not going to interfere in criminal investigations. but the principle, this administration, we should not be surveiling reporters. we should be protecting their rights. why not put that in writing? >> well, first of all is not specifically what i enunciated yesterday. well, okay, did i say and speaking for him reflect ago direct conversation with him. i think it's fair to say that

since the president believes this is conversation was happening, and he believes these are legitimate questions and if we remove them from the specifics of this case so he can talk about them he believes he would -- he would -- i don't have a -- >> this is going on in his own administration. >> i think you have to be careful about this. >> what about james rosen's phones were being looked by the government. the president says one thing but the administration appears to be doing something else. >> i don't think that is case. i can't speak to specific criminal investigation. i can speak publicly available information has indicated that investigation is over. that charges related to that

investigation that will be brought have already been brought. >> megyn: that is just a little bit of what we heard in the press briefing office today. as mr. carney comes under fire from other reporters as well from shifting information on the irs scandal and questioning whether the president is really committed to freedom of the press given with a his attorney general has been doing to the press. we will follow that and bring you the news as it comes out of there. in the meantime, up next, the torn for convicted abortion doctor kermit gosnell, convicted murderer, he is here for the first time speaking out in his first cable news interview since the verdict and the life sentence imposed on his client. don't miss that. he is next. [ female announcer ] doctors trust calcium plus vitamin d

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citibank mobile check deposit. easier banking. standard at citibank. >> as any intelligent human being is upset. we aired our position over this through a long trial. we a fair trial. we got to put out our position and jury spoke. >> megyn: that was kermit gosnell's defense attorney general after he was convicted in the first-degree murder of three babies born alive after he performed abortion attempts on them. last week, gosnell was sentenced to more than three consecutive life sentences behind bars after operating a philadelphia clinic for decades where we performed formed united states of illegal late term abortions. it was described as a house of

horrors. now some are shocked that he was disappointed and upset over his conviction. i'm wondering whether he expressed any other such sentiment to his victims. gosnell's attorney, jack, thank you for being here. let me just pick up with you there. coming out and describing him as upset and we heard testimony that he wasn't upset when he was aborting these babies and laughing how one child, was big enough to walk him to the bus stop. it was moment, it was a little surreal to hear about upset at his own misfortune. your thoughts. >> that was the question, he was upset. he had a trial.

we put our position. we tried to win the case. any time you try to win and you lose, a large portion of the case you are going to be disappointed. i don't care who you are. that a normal human reaction. i don't think it's nefarious on his part. >> megyn: you spent a lot of time with him. it's funny you should say, it's just human. that was one of the questions raised by this case, what kind of human being could do this, could aborted babies that were 30 weeks along? these are babies, these are no longer embryos, these are babies that can survive outside the womb. what was your experience with dr. gosnell? >> as i said before, dr. gosnell was a dream client. in this business, some of them aren't a dream. two and a half years he has been a gentleman, polite. fully appreciative of the work i have done for him. a complete gentleman. he a soft spoken man.

he is an intelligent man. i'm not going sit there and tell you that things didn't get out of hand and things went a bit awry, but as far as the totality of gosnell, he is not just defined by the events of 2008. he is defined by 72 years of life. >> megyn: a bit awry? jack, the testimony was the babies were born alive on the operating table and crying. >> first of all. that is not the testimony. i can give you the the transcripts. >> megyn: jury found he was guilty of murder? >> absolutely. we respect the verdict. he kon got convicted but he wase of them were not guilty. >> megyn: i'm challenging your assertion that things went awry at the clinic? >> there was no oversight. nobody came and looked at that location. things went downhill.

i would agree with that. it should have been checked on yearly basis. there is no question. >> megyn: number one problem was is dr. kermit gosnell? >> that is simplistic way to look at it. i don't think that is accurate. when you sit here and say the babies were squirming on the operating table, that is not true. you can find out what the truth is. >> megyn: are you disputing the jury found they were born alive? >> the jury found that and that is their belief. >> megyn: that is all we need to know. he tried to abort them and failed and then he tried to kill them. that is what the jury found clinic with the recent animal urine and cats had defecated all over it. >> not true. not true. not true. >> megyn: difference the way he

treated women of color versus white women. >> not true. >> megyn: all is not true. >> right there, they found him guilty of murder. again that is their decision. what you just said there about blood soaked blankets, tools not being materialized, it's all not accurate as to what the testimony was in the trial. >> megyn: including the one he was convicted of involuntary manslaughter? >> he had 16,000 patients and referrals or repeat business. that tells you something right there. >> megyn: it does and it's not good. problem here, jack, is he was running a late term abortion clinic. >> no he wasn't you don't know the facts. that is not true. >> megyn: how does the baby get born alive. early on in the pregnancy it doesn't get born alive.

>> there were late term abortions and they were wrong and the vast majority over 95% of them were all first time abortions. very rarely and when they went in and found 47 fetuses there 45 of them were legally within the limit of 22 weeks. >> megyn: body parts of babies, why did he keep the feet? >> you are not understanding the evidence and not paying what the real thing is. you want to think what it is. all the commonwealth testified, every witness for the government that testified the reason he kept a few of the body parts which were feet for purposes of dna analysis as requested by the patient's family. that is why he did it. he had 16,000 abortions and they found two or three feet. so don't sit around and start talking about collecting body parts. it's not true. >> megyn: but two or three babies and kept as souvenirs.

>> they weren't souvenirs. that is lie. >> megyn: why did he laugh about the back he was trying to abort that was big enough to walk to bus stop. why was that funny to him? >> we don't believe the testimony is true. i don't believe that testimony is true. i can't comment on something that he says never happened. >> megyn: jack, i started off, we don't tell the lawyers the sins of clients, listening to you, you guy that is suffering from stockholm syndrome. he murdered little babies! >> listen. you sit there and say they are squirming around on the table and scissors -- that is not the facts. case. >> megyn: why are we arguing that pointed. i will concede to you for the pups of this discussion they were not squirming around the table. they were born alive, sir! then you stuck scissors in their

neck. >> we presented the defense for two months the babies were not born alive. they were injected a pharmaceutical which calls fetal demise that was requested by the women. these babies were dead as evidence in the case by the medical examiner also said that. medical examiner -- medical examiner said -- i disagree. i agree with you, but i tell you what. i came out of case, 24 weeks is a bad determiner. it should be like 16 to 17 weeks because the babies would not even arguably viable at that point in time. i think the law should be changed to that. pro choice, they have to choose quicker. i think that is something that should come out of thiser think more regulation should come out of these places. >> megyn: i shouldn't say that planned parenthood are disputing

some of the regulations proposed. jack, thanks for coming on. >> my pleasure. >> megyn: taking your thoughts on twitter. follow my on megyn kelly. up next, new development about benghazi. [ male announcer ] hunt...farm...or trail...

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man and pulled out gun. a man knew one of the bombing suspects a threatened could be a deadly link beside the bombing. phil keating has more live from miami. >> reporter: that russian national who had been living in orlando shot dead overnight. he was mix martial arts fighter just like tamerlan tsarnaev. the f.b.i. questioned him multiple times since the boston bombings including last night when he quote flipped out. we can now report he pulled a knife. f.b.i. says a violent con phone fron station and the individual was killed and agent sustained non life-threatening injuries. overnight shooting hapd in apartment complex not far from the theme park. he knew tamerlan tsarnaev the older boston bombing suspects.

>> when the bombing happened, he actually came and said i can't believe it. i can't believe i did it. they started questioning him and asking the questions, what kind of connection do you have with them. they are trying to make a connection with them. there is no connection. i know that for sure. >> reporter: he also reportedly questioned about an unsolved triple murder two years ago in massachusetts in which tamerlan tsarnaev is also being looked at. as for the surviving brother he is due in court on the 2nd. he continues recovering from multiple gunshot wounds at a mass mats medical center. he is charged with two crimes involving the use of weapons of mass destruction. as for that the dead suspect, just two weeks ago in the orlando area, orange county sheriff's deputies arrested him for aggravated battery causing

great bodily harm, according to the incident report, arguing with another man over a parking spot. when police got there, the other man had already been knocked out unconscious on the ground. >> megyn: unbelievable. phil, thank you. new developments in the investigation of the deadly terror attack in benghazi that left four americans including our ambassador dead. the f.b.i. now says it has identified at least 18 suspects it believes were involved. these are pictures of three of them. we're told that the u.s. has enough evidence to justify capturing them by military force, but there is not enough evidence to try them in a civilian court as the obama administration would prefer. the terror suspects remain at large. joining me now, colonel oliver north. what does that mean?

why would we are capturing them and trying them in civilian court as opposed to, trying them over on american soil? >> this is after the administration pioneered the use of hell fire missiles fired from predator drones to kill american citizens in other countries. now, we have at least five and perhaps 18 who have been identified who are not american citizens who are obviously in some other country and yet we don't have enough evidence? this is surreal. this just shows the fallacy of an administration that is dangerous to this country. i'm not great fan of using hell fire missiles firing from unmanned vehicles to kill american citizens but if you are going to done doing that in other countries, why are they waiting for, quote, evidence to bring them into custody of the united states if they are ones that everyone seems to believe

murdered an ambassador and killed three other men's and led the attack into the diplomatic mission in benghazi? it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. >> megyn: yet is it a huge surprise when we place the f.b.i. in charge of the investigation? a lot of people raise eyebrows when we sent f.b.i. over there. why isn't it being handled in the pentagon? >> that is part of the problem of the administration. i have a dear friend that retired from the f.b.i. he said the reason he was leaving after 27 years he had become part of the largest ongoing criminal enterprise in history. he is speaking of the obama regime. this organization, now that we are going to punish their enemies and adversaries and how they are using the irs and wiretapping and probing into the personal correspondence, electronic and otherwise perhaps of correspondents like james rosen, we ought to be very

concerned about what they are doing. it's not just because of this triple whammy but all kinds of things. the effect it is having on the united states and ability to prosecute campaigns against our adversaries is most important. lord of mercy, what about bringing 18 people of custody when you can't move around the streets of tripoli. >> megyn: american people were told about this, the question about whether the obama administration response to the attack on our consulate was well handled. 32% say approve, 53% of american people disapprove how it has been handled. then when asked if there is a cover-up on benghazi, 60% said they believe that they are trying to cover up what happened there. this is not -- this isn't playing well politically with the american people but about so much more than that.

this is our approach of the war on terror where now we think we have identified the guys that murdered our ambassador but we have to wait for evidence to convict in a court of law? new territory. >> this is not new territory. they are whetted to the idea they have propagated ever since may of 2011, once they got bin laden the problem of extremism and al-qaeda have gone away. they have not. al-qaeda is one part of radical islam, jihadis are more numerous than they were before. what this administration is doing is ignoring reality in hopes they can somehow survive this. hopefully the congress will get its act together and rest of media will start paying attention to these things. that poll that you just read isn't because of the rest of so-called mainstream media have been covering this. they haven't been. they better start paying attention because they don't

know when their phones will be tapped. been there, done that. >> megyn: up next, jodi arias facing a major challenge at the tail end of this case as woman who once said she preferred the death penalty is pleading for the life. wait until you hear the new interview she just gave fox news >> sentence me to text death -- okay, team! after age 40, we can start losing muscle --

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>>. >> megyn: back in session today. convicted killer jodi arias what could be the final deliberations. they are deciding right now whether she spend the life behind bars or put to death for the brutal murder of the lover. she shot him and stabbed him 27 times and slit his throat. she said she wanted to live for the sake of her family. that is an about-face after the conviction. she wanted the death penalty then. she gave a new interview. >> why did you apologize? >> i did apologize. >> i never heard you say i'm sorry? >> i don't think i used those words but if i didn't adequately convey it. i regret it. >> do you want to do it now?

>> there is nothing i can do that to take back that i did. i wish i could. i really wish that i could. i can never make up for what happened. >> do you want to say i'm sorry right now to travis's family? >> certainly. i'm definitely sorry. >> go ahead. >> it seems like saying i'm sorry, quote, unquote, is so inadequate it doesn't encompass of the remorse that i feel. >> megyn: especially when you didn't want to offer the apology. joining me is a criminal defense attorney and mercedes who a defense news legal analyst. she is kind of right. we don't care. they are usually sorry when they get caught and convicted. the fact that in her long, long presentation to the jury, she never said it suggests she doesn't feel it. that is relevant. >> very relevant. i think the jury wants to see a whole lot of remorse from this

woman. i find it interesting they didn't get to hear from her loved ones or the one she is trying to appeal. the family doesn't want her to commit suicide and jury never heard from them. they had to look straight at jodi in the face. notice where she was standing. she didn't take the stand. she was standing in front of the jury box trying to appeal to their sensitivity. i don't know, but i am so sorry. she got up there and talked about how if they give hear life sentence she is going to donate her air and started a recycling program in prison, she may teach spanish in prison and start a book club but she wants to focus on educating women on domestic violence. >> exactly. it makes you want to cringe. why didn't you do all that

wonderful stuff before you killed travis. sn the survivor t-shirt that she has? give me a break if you keep me alive, the awareness about domestic violence. i was a victim of domestic violence. you know what the jury rejected that. they don't believe you. you stood on the stand 18 days, probable the longest in criminal history trying to convince them. this little speech is not going anywhere. jury going to say we'll keep you alive because that would be a greater punishment. >> megyn: which she original told a fox reporter and then were you lying you wanted a life sentence. the family, originally she said she wanted a death sentence and the reporter said were you lying and family said it would be wrong thing. let me ask you about the media round robin, she talked to five

different outlets with the make and hair. why? what is going on there? >> that is my question, too. unless she is sonar cystic and believes in her mind she may actually get out. some day she may have a life and some day she can sell her story or sell herself or something about her that we really don't care about. she is living that fantasy. she has her 15 minutes of fame, i guess, that is only explanation. >> megyn: do you think the jury knows about the interviews? >> it would be interesting. they are probably told by the judge not to read anything. it's not something they should be doing but frank they would have to be living under a rock what this woman is doing. >> it makes her look more narcistic and law doesn't allow her to profit her crime. she can't write a book and

collect millions of dollars because she made herself about a star? >> not for this crime. she is going to have an appeal that is going to win and some day she is not going to be a murderer sitting in prison. >> megyn: hold on. there she is. she is in the courtroom. this is live. maybe we're getting news. i'm not being told we have a verdict on the life sentence versus death. i'm being told she is back in court. we're trying to figure that out out. but we'll continue to wait and watch. panel, thank you both so much. >> thank you. >> up next, a heartwarming update to what began as a tragic story in oklahoma. i mean, yesterday was a tough day to watch as we saw the scenes of devastation unfolding in daylight in moore, oklahoma. one couple lost everything, their home, everything they own. and they also thought they lost

their beloved dog. we'll tell you how sugar, that dog, had a very different end to her day yesterday. and this is the one story today that may make you feel really good. it's next.

some much needed good news for a family devastated by the moore, oklahoma tornado. yesterday, nate joined us and told us by phone about finding his new home destroyed by the tornado. and there was no sign of his faithful dog, sugar. well, last night three girls found sugar tied to a tree. and nate has been reunited with his dog. joining me now on the phone today, nate, how did it happen?

>> you know, a lady on monday night she was with the foundation, she took the information and yesterday afternoon she was going shelter to shelter. we've got pictures at 8:00 at night saying is this sugar. it was her and we just basically ran to wherever she was at. >> so did she -- did she contact you or did you contact her? >> we contacted her. monday night we went to the command center here at the home depot and she took all the information. i sent her pictures. and we had just been in contact through text messages all yesterday afternoon while she was searching all the shelters and clinics for her. >> wow. and what kind of condition is the dog in? >> you know what, she is about as healthy as we could ask for. she's had a little bit of debris in her eye, so it's swollen a little bit. and one little small scratch on her left back paw. other than that she's perfectly healthy and happy. >> how did they find her initially? where was she? >> we live on southwest sixth street, they found her five or

six blocks away on first street and i-35 service road. a patrolman happened to see her tied to a tree and three volunteers from local volunteers said it looked like sugar from seeing it on the news and all over the place. they brought her into the shelter and one lady said that looks exactly like sugar from what we saw on the megyn kelly show. >> that's great. i'm so glad we could play any role whatsoever in your reunion, nate. i know your home has just been devastated and it's got to be so hard for you and your wife. but we all love our pets. god bless your family. so happy you're reunited with her. >> thank you so much for your help. >> all the best to you. great way to close out the show. we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] this is kevin.

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thanks for watching everyone. i'm megyn kelly. "studio b with shepard" starts now. it's 3:00 on the east coast, noon on the west coast, 2:00 p.m. here in the heartland of america. i'm shepard smith and this is "studio b" coming to you today from above moore, oklahoma. we're flying at about 2,000 feet. and our goal over the next eight or nine minutes is to show you the entire path that the tornado took through this suburb of oklahoma city, every inch of it. he's panning down now to about two miles after it began. it first hit a white barn then hit a bridge. and then a largely unpopulated area. and then we begin with this. mostly suburban area of a