thank you for watching tonight. i'm bill o'reilly. please always remember that the spin stops right here. we're definitely looking out for you. >> sean:p('j5)tiátuá @&c @&c% alert, the top irs information who invoked the fifth amendment earlier today and refused to answer questions before the house oversight committee may be called back to capitol hill to testify. the bombshell development comes to us courtesy of chairman darrell issa who argues she waived her fifth amendment rights by delivering this opening statement. let's take a look. >> i have not done anything wrong. i have not broken any laws. i have not violated any irs rules or regulations. i have not provided false information to this or any other congressional committee. and while i would very much like to answer the committee's

questions today, i've been advised by my counsel to assert my constitutional right not to testify or answer questions related to the subject matter of this hearing. >> sean: so is this a major legal misstep on the part of lois lerner and her attorneys? a number of council member, through south carolina's trey gowdy, they actually believe it was. >> she just testified. she just waived her fifth amendment right to privilege. you don't get to tell your side of the story and not be subjected to cross-examination. that's not the way it works. she waived her right to the fifth amendment privilege by issuing an opening statement. she ought to stand here and answer our questions. [applause] >> sean: unfortunately moments later lerner repeatedly refused to answer any questions regarding the tax agency's targeting of conservatives, and ordered to leave the room by

congressman issa. however others didn't get off so easily. because you were not able to watch the hearing in its entirety, as usual, we did it for you. we have all of the highlights. take a look. >> you sure you didn't talk to anyone at the white house about this issue, mr. shulman? >> about singling out conservative groups for special scrutiny? >> well, that's what we're talking about, isn't it? >> absolutely sure i did not talk to -- >> 118 visits, it didn't come up with a casual conversation after 132 members of congress contacted you about it. you sure you didn't bring it up with anybody at the white house? >> not to my memory. >> what would be some of the reasons you might be at the white house? >> the easter egg roll with my kids. >> i just want to be clear, you're very aware of the fact you're under oath today? >> very aware of that. >> you went to the white house 118 times. one of the key subjects you talk about was the implementation of

the affordable care act, targeting individuals that opposed that, and you never brought it up when thinks a major topic of conversation? >> no, i did not. this happened on my watch. i do not accept responsibilities for all the actions taken by all the people outlined in the report. >> well, i am deeply disappointed in your answer. >> sir, can i -- >> no, you can't get back to me. he just whispered into your ear. what did he say? this is so frustrating to me. we hear about this accountability, and in all the scandals, we hear the same thing, it wasn't my job, i don't know, it was the other office, i was recused. i didn't find out about it till you found out about it. where does the accountability begin? >> you knew this before the election? >> sometime in the spring of 2012. >> that was before the election. you did know there was an election going on, a presidential election? >> i'm aware that there was an election. >> you still don't know this was

political? >> excuse me? >> you still don't know that this was political. >> i'll defer to the inspector general. >> your predecessor said he wasn't sure if it wasn't partisan, and that requires the listener to be as stupid as the speaker. >> sean: wow. the officials in leadership positions at the irs, i would ask when this was going on, what is so dangerous about the truth? don't the american people deserve answers? don't they deserve the truth? to me it's that simple. joining me with reaction to today's hearing, the chairman of the house oversight committee california congressman darrell issa and ohio congressman. >> thanks for covering this hearing. >> sean: mr. chairman, did lois lerner, by giving that opening statement, do you believe she gave her right -- fifth amendment right? >> well, sean, when trey gowdy raised a point of order that she

had waived her right, i have to take it seriously. we have referred it to counsel. it does appear as though clearly under precedent her making these statements, these denials on the subject for which she was subpoenaed in addition to other documents she authenticated afterwards crosses the line by quite a bit. again, we want to make sure we go to counsel, get independent adjudication, if you will, of this question. we recessed the hearing so we have the right to call her back. the bigger problem, if she waived her rights as we believe she did, and trey gowdy made a motion that she did, the same thing will hound her in criminal investigations, department of , justice, anywhere else she goes. if she's committed a crime, she's waived her right to criminal prosecution, which is different than us, basement problem. >but same problem. >> does that mean she could be

held in contempt of congress? >> she could be held in comp tempt. ultimately we're fortunate that most people that come before us, people that are whistleblowers, are coming forward, including tea party groups that want to make records available to the committee so we can act on their behalf. a lot of the activities we'll get, a lot of information we're getting out of whistleblowers and voluntary witnesses. we're deeply disappointed. we're hoping she'll reconsider in light of waving her fifth amendment rights. >> sean: congress jordan, you brought up the issue today of the 118 visits. some of it you brought up was to talk about obamacare, the affordable care act. were you as stunned as i was? the answer was, i was there for the easter egg roll with my kids. >> 118 visits, and we know a

substantial number of them were about the affordable care act, about obamacare. march of 2010, this started, the very month obamacare became law. this agency starts targeting conservative groups who came into existence because they opposed obamacare. it started in march of 2010. shulman goes to the white house 118 times in 2010 and 2011. what was he talking about? he had to be talking about obamacare a lot. in fact, he admitted that under oath today. in any of those conversations, did you talk about the scandal going on? he did find out about the identifying words, tea party, 912, and patriot, knew that was used to develop this list last year. at some point you'd assume he talked to somebody ahouse aboutt saying he didn't. >> sean: mr. shulman testified before congress march 12th, i believe, of 2012, when he was

asked about this very issue. >> yes. >> sean: he said absolutely it is not this. but we now know that they knew six months before this election that in fact this had occurred, and he never went back to the committee, he never revised, extended his remarks? >> never corrected his remarks. he used this language -- he said, i can assure you that nothing is going, politically focused going on, targeting conservative groups. he used the words "i can assure you." that's strong language. then when he finds out it was, doesn't correct the record, that's a problem. he had a lot of questioning about that issue. >> sean: there was an issue, airman issa, a bipartisan letter signed by chairman david camp, and sandra levin of the ways and means committee, and they requested from the white house that documents and information be sent over to them by yesterday. they've apparently decided they're not going to send it over, at least not in a timely fashion. how troublesome is that to you?

do you think this is part of a delay tactic? >> three things that are troublesome. first off, this white house's attitude is they don't have to give us unless it serves their spin. secondly, everyone up and down the line, if you're a political appointee, seems to have amnesia. i think it's obama amnesia. mr. shulman was a good example. he must have said, "i don't remember" enough times, if i had a nickel for each time, i could pay often the national debt. the last one, the most troubling one, is people seem to think they don't know. we heard management up and down claiming they didn't know, even if they were briefed they didn't remember or it wasn't in enough detail for them to know. this pattern of irresponsibility, lack of administrative attention, begs the question of why do we have all these political appointees if they find a way to not know what's going on, but take full responsibility for anything good that happens. >> sean: let me ask you both, i want to set the table for this

question, the white house denied that they had any knowledge of this, that they found out about through news reports, that was their original story. by my account there are five variations. we know the president's attorney, the white house counsel, and the chief of staff in the white house to the president, both did know earlier than what we were told, and we discovered that the white house was involved in working with the treasury to leak this story before the ig report. >> right. >> sean: i want to get both of your reactions to that. congressman jordan, we'll start with you. >> exactly right, sean. they were so calculating, they orchestrated the rollout, how they were going to break this story to the american people, because they knew the ig's report was coming. people at the white house, at the irs, are choreographing how to do, this but yet a year ago, two years ago, when it was all going on, the 132 members of congress inquire about it, 118 visits to the white house,

numerous news reports, nobody knows anything. and yet when they have to actually present it, because now it's here, oh, they're choreographing, spinning, scheming how they're going do i. that causes the american people to say something's not right here. >> sean: chairman issa, did they lie when they said, we don't know anything in the white house, and now we know a lot of high ranking people did and they helped coordinate the talking points? >> exactly right. the president doesn't know, because apparently he has a pattern of not knowing, being told anything. people in the white house were briefed, even by the ig, and very, very clearly they were part of spinning this ahead of time. the ig, russell george, said the way it was done may be a violation of the law. >> sean: do you think they purposely lied? >> they purposely don't want to know things. we don't think they could be so dumb as to not know so much.

>> sean: that's a mouthful. mr. chairman, thank you. this is important. the american people to know that the irs is not out there intimidating them because of their political views, their associations, and very dangerous stuff. thank you both for what you're doing. appreciate it. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> sean: coming up next, in a "hannity" exclusive, you'll meet the reporter who may have uncovered the irs agent responsible for ordering the agency to target conservatives. plus rhines priebus will join me in studio. mrs., chilling video from london of a terrorist attack carried out by a knife-wielding islamist. you can see the blood on his hands. [ engine revving ] ♪ [ male announcer ] every car we build must make adrenaline pump and pulses quicken.

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i love you, angie. sorry, honey. >> sean: this is a fox news alert. our fox news affiliate in cincinnati, ohio, has uncovered the name of the local irs official who may have been directing her subordinates to target conservative groups. joining me to explain more is ben swann. what's the latest on this? >> sean, we've investigated the chain of command in the cincinnati irs office. keep in mind, when the scandal first broke, the acting irs commissioner steven miller said that the targeting of conservative groups happened at the hands of only two rogue irs agents. well, already weaved identified as many as six involved. what we've now learned thanks to

two fox19 sources connected to the irs, none of these six agents had the same direct manager or area manager. in fact, the only common link between all these agents is one woman named cindy thomas, the program manager of the tax exempt organization's division, and the highest ranking official in the cincinnati division. thomas not only has the only common authority over all these agents but would also have been receiving system generated red flags when these cases in the system were therefore more than nine months. one more detail on cindy thomas. remember that progress civil journalism program, the manager who signed off on that document release, cindy thomas. will congress call up cindy thomas under oath about what she knows? sean? >> sean: thank you for that information. joining me is reince priebus. thanks for joining us. >> hi, sean. >> sean: it started as a rogue

agent, nobody in the white house knew, except the president's white house counsel, and then later, of course, the chief of staff. all that unraveled. >> it's all unraveling. that's what happens when you spend all day trying to cover things up. lois lerner started triggering three important steps to get to a special counsel. one is whether a criminal investigation is warranted. well, if you plead the fifth amendment, after you say of course you have nothing to hide, you're, in essence, calling for -- at least illustrating or telling your -- the people in america that actually criminal investigation isñ9y+w)anted. the second thing is whether or not it's in the public interest. well, clearly it is in the public interest. the third thing is whether or not the doj has a conflict. we know as of now -- i mean eric holder in many ways has acted like a political hack, ruling over a culture of lawlessness. we have all of the conditions at this point for a special

prosecutor. she helped make that happen today. >> sean: i was watching her today very, very closely. i'm thinking, all right, you're claiming you're innocent. why can't you just tell the truth about what happened without hurting yourself? then i started thinking, does she feel threatened? does she feel someone might damage her? is she protecting somebody? why exactly does sheff this fear of just telling the truth? she says she did nothing wrong. >> exactly right. the same with shulman. he goes in and out of the white house over 115 times. >> sean: a lot of easter egg rolls. >> right. 115 visits back and forth. 132 democratic members of the white house and the senate asking for the special investigation. he didn't say anything to anybody in the white house. we know that's not true. we know that pfeifer went on five shows last sunday saying it's irrelevant, no one in the

white house knew about it. turns out a day later, find out in fact the chief of staff knew about this issue. >> sean: and the president's attorney. >> and the president's attorney knew about it three weeks earlier, but yet the president doesn't know anything about it. let's face it, the conservative groups they were targeting -- remember, going back in time. they were at every single listening session of every congressman's district around the country. there was tea party groups and conservative groups, god bless them, in every corner of this country. the wave of 2010 was as a result of all of this effort, right? they didn't -- this was not political? >> sean: do you think this was therefore designed to put these guys back on their heels so that they couldn't be involved in whatever efforts they want in educating people about topics before the election? >> clearly there was top-level democrats elected, senators and house members, that were frustrated with the tea party

groups, frustrated with conservative groups, and they were saying, hang on a second, this can't be possibly be a c4, c3, let's investigate these guys through the irs and make it happen. you don't think through all the meetings that go on in the white house, all the cocktail receptions, all the closed-door meetings, nobody was talking to anyone around the president saying, you know, let's get these people. >> sean: tell me what you think. benghazi, this story, the evolution, you know, 12 sets of talking points that we know of, in this case five different stories about who knew what, when and where. >> sure. >> sean: that seems to be their biggest problem. >>and now the ap story is involving. it went away for a couple day, and it's coming back. this is lawlessness and guerrilla warfare. the president created it. i think this is just the beginning. darrell issa and trey gowdy are doing a great job, but the special counsel piece is triggering, and lois lerner made

that happen today. >> sean: reince, thank you. later, we'll investigate the intimidation of the press. also coming up, a british soldier is brutally killed on the streets of london, being described as a terrorist attack, possibly motivated by radical islamists. that's the guy who just killed this soldier. we'll show you the tape when we get back. welcome to the new buffalo...

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chase liquid. so you can. >> sean: welcome back to "hannity." british officials are calling it an apparent terrorist attack, motivated by rad collateral slammists. two men brutally killed a british soldier on the streets of south london near a military barracks in broad daylight.

the images are very disturbing. here's how all of this unfolded. now two men attacked the british soldier with meat cleavers and knives, viciously killing him. one of the suspects still carrying a weapon, with his hands covered covered in the victim's blood approached somebody on the street holding a camera, and said this -- and you can see the blood on his eyes. >> an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. i apologize that women have to witnesses this today, but in our land our women have to see the same. you people will never be safe. remove your government. they don't care about you. >> sean: the man is seen walking past the other suspect, casually walking past the victim lying in the street. police arrived soon after and shot beth men. witnesses say they attacked the officers, who then opened fire. the suspects are being treated at a local hospital. joining me with reaction michelle malkin and leslie marshall. guys, good to see you. welcome back. >> good to see you, sean. hi. >> i did notice that the prime minister, david cameron,

this was a terrorist attack. now, we know, michelle, that they apparently were saying they swear by almighty allah, we're not going stop fighting you. why do i doubt we would have said that in this country? >> i agree with you, i think it's because of political correctness in so many ways has been the handmaden of islamic terrorism, not only in this country, but many pc countries around the world. i'm glad that david cameron spoke bluntly about it. what do you need to have? neon lights that say islamic jihad, islamic jihad? i mean, duh, they were screaming at the top of their lungs, and repeatedly swore in the name of allah, that they would continue to fight against us. they talked repeatedly in the video later in the clip about how this is what god would have wanted as they traipsed around the body of this innocent

british soldier. it's barbaric. it's evil. we need to call it what it is. in large part, unfortunately, in british culture, among the progressives there, they brought it on themselves in some way because of lax deportation 5y unwillingness to screen out and profile islamic militants now doing this in a homegrown manner on british soil. it's tragic. >> and also it does bring into question, gun laws, if the soldier had been able to protect himself, defend himself, which people all over the media in this country bragging about the fact, well, people don't have guns in england. >> you know who did have a gun? one of the assailants had a pistol, and everyone else around them was unarmed completely. >> sean: leslie, the official position of the united states of america to>fx this day is thatn we had 13 people killed, 32 people injured at fort hood, the official position of this

administration, when major hassan went on his remind page, that it was workplace violence. is it wrong that we don't recognize and call things what they are? >> quite frankly i did agree with that. i did feel that was a terrorist attack. i felt it was obvious. what bothers me we really get into semantics. what happened in fort hood, lives were lost. what happened today, that's somebody's son, somebody's brother, a grandson, a friend. michelle, i really think that it's terrible for anybody to say that any political group in great britain or here brought murder upon ourselves. murderers are murderers. these people are murderers. when he's talking there, sean, what is so chilling, it looks like he's wearing red gloves. that's a young man's blood who died on the street in broad daylight at the hands of this these murderers.

are they terrorists? does it matter that they're terrorists? >> sean: yeah, it does. >> what's the difference between a mass murderer and a terrorists? what's the difference? these are butchers, mass murderers. >> what difference does it make, you sound like hillary clinton. it's not word games to call things what they are. the only people who play word games, are you and your ilk, people in the obama administration who still refuse to call fort hood islamic violence, even -- >> didn't i just say it was a terrorist attack. do not put words in my mouth. >> let me finish. >> i said it was a terrorist attack. i did not agree with that. >> good. well, i'm glad. better late than never. the problem is that -- >> no, it's late. i said it when it happened.

>> he cited chapter and verse of the koran, talking about the koranic perspective on muslims in the u.s. military. the problem is that those kind of pc policies, lax immigration policies, refusal to do islamic militant profiling has, yes, led to dead bodies in america and around the world. the sooner we reckon with it, the safer we'll be. >> sean: leslie? >> can i respond to that? thank you, sean. first of all, michelle, i think it's interesting that you propose to run the entire united kingdom and the british government, which david cameron really is in charge of doing right now. secondly, david cameron didn't say this was a terrorist attack. his exact words were, we believe it to be a terrorist attack. we of course to have it an investigation and all the facts have to come in. >> yeah. because repeatedly invoking allah, hello. >> i will never take a

paintbrush and make a broad sweeping generalization in a religion or a political group or -- >> why don't you read the koranic versus. >> sean: , saying we'll never stop fighting you, and -- >> in boston did they do it, they said it was a suspected terrorist attack. once they had the facts in. there was no yelling of any kind. >> they are not forgotten, from daniel pearl to nick berg. >> sean: karl rove is here responding to the obama justice department, precedenting targeting of a fox news journalist, and frankly the entire fox news organization. we have breaking details on this disturbing story. then did anyone in the obama white house try to conceal the benghazi cover-up, the ap scandal or irs scandal before

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♪ twelve, counting your adrenaline system. the 2014 e-class. the most intelligent, exhilarating mercedes-benz ever made. see your authorized mercedes-benz dealer for exceptional offers through mercedes-benz financial services. >> sean: welcome back to "hannity." new developments regarding the obama justice department's efforts to target reporters and producers here at the fox news channel, including our chief washington correspondent james rosen. newly uncovered court documents from 2011 show at this doj seized phone records that match up to many fox news hard lines and cellphones, including lines that run to our workspace at the white house, pentagon, state department, also lines linked to fox news management. now, that's not all. according to the documents, the justice department also asked questions about the phone lines of james rosen's parents. this all comes after rosen was accused in an affidavit of being

a, quote, possible criminal co-conspirator for his role in publishing sensitive security information. now earlier today the u.s. attorney in d.c. pushed back, releasing a statement to fox news. he said, quote, we did not wiretap the phones or any reporter or news organization, nor did we monitor or track the phone calls of any reporters' parents. no records were obtained from the computer servers of any news organization. here with react is the architect, fox news contributor, karl rove. it would be james rosen' gmail account, as i understand it it, number one. number two, we know from the document released yesterday, weren't they monitoring what phone calls were made by who from whom where and when? >> yeah. look, this is too cute by half. let's step back for a minute. i have sympathy for the government trying to protect classified information, but heretofore for decades the focus and leak investigations has been on the leaker, not the

journalist who received the information. for very good reason. the journalist is out there doing their job under the first amendment. as a result, the justice department has developed a series of very strict guidelines that require the attorney general of the united states to sign off on any subpoena, to collect this kind of information. and as a result, it is rarely done. but we now have two instances of it being done, first by the administration and going after james rosen. this went back to as early as may of 2010. then a more recent example going after the phone lines used by 100 editors and journalists of the associated press. we now have the administration changing the focus from who did the leak to who was the journalist who received the information. >> sean: we now know, we have sources now, that have confirmed that the -- one of the numbers listed in the government's discovery matches james rosen' parents, where they live, which i don't think it would be fair to disclose.

we also know the u.s. attorney investigating fox news was a major obama donor. >> yeah. >> sean: tell me what you think is wrong with this in terms of freedom of the press. >> well, look, this impinges on the free press. the ap reporter covering the white house, now writes for the "national journal," got it write when he said these kind of investigations send a strong message, if you get on the other side of us, we're coming after you. that's a very bad message for the white house, any white house, to be sending against our free pass. now look, there's something else here that really bothers me. we had a sank moneyous lecture by your favorite attorney general eric holder in a house committee hearing about 10 days ago. hank johnson, a democrat of georgia, gave him a setup question about the ap so he could pont phi kat pontificate,d

of the leaker, respect the press. rosen is in 2010. holder is attorney general back then. did he recuse himself from that or did he authorize it or did the fbi violate these district doj guidelines that resident freedom of the press, respect the role of journalists by saying it's only in the most extraordinary of circumstances, and only with the highest test made possible, and only with an agreement by the attorney general, shall you ever do these kind of things involving journalists. >> sean: well said. now, there have been poll numbers, "washington post," abc news poll among them, coming out showing where the american public is on all these scandals, the impact it's having on the white house. you, as i understand it, have your infamous white board. what have you got? >> well, abc news/washington post came out this week, 74% of those surveyed believe that it

is inappropriate to do what the irs did, and that is target conservative groups. by 45/42, they believe that president obama is covering this up. now the fox poll, which came out yesterday, 60% believe that the administration is covering up the facts on benghazi. and 66% say that the white house either knew or directed the irs targeting of conservative groups. these are not good numbers. now, i!ñ these are new scandals. they've only begun to now drip out. people have not been paying as much attention to them as we might expect. in fact, late last week, just over 50% of the people were paying a lot of attention to either benghazi or to the irs. more to the irs than to benghazi. those are still relatively low numbers. yet already we've got 6 out of every 10 americans saying they're not telling me the truth out of benghazi. 2 out of every 3 americans saying they knew or directed the irs to target conservatives. and 3 out of 4 saying that's a bad thing to do.

these are not good numbers. they'll begin to have a corrosive effect on the president's standing, in my opinion, and get worse before it gets better. >> sean: just like benghazi, the irs scandal, they keep changing the story, keeps changing. >> every couple of days we get a new explanation, which further undermines their credibility. his, what they have told us heretofore has simply not been true. all of these things they've said about benghazi, about the irs, and we saw it most particularly on sunday with dan pfeiffer out there who said literally that the irs investigation, there was no evidence of political motivation. it just happened to be an accident they were all conservative groups being targeted. >> sean: the law is irrelevant. >> three things were irrelevant, one of which was the law. >> sean: used the word "irrelevant" three times. thank you very much. coming up, did the white house lie to you, the voters, in order to win an election?

i'll pose that question to president obama's former economic advisor austan goolsbee. he's here live in studio. we'll shoot it out next [ ice freezing ] [ wind howling ] [ engine revving ] ♪ [ electricity crackling ] [ engine revving ] [ electricity crackling ] ♪

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>> sean: welcome back to "hannity." while there was no october surprise that shook up the 2012 presidential election, we now know that in reality there were three massive scandals that were happening behind the scenes 20 widespread national security cover-up of the benghazi terror attack, the irs targeting conservative groups, and the department of justice spying on reporters, there was clearly no lack of scandal within the administration, but regardless of whether the president knew about any of this, the question we are asking tonight, did anyone in the obama administration conceal these ñ votero they could win the election?

here to answer that question and more, former obama economic advisor, professor of economics, austan goolsbee. >> good to see you, sean. i'm always afraid that you got a trapdoor in here, i'm going hit that button and never be heard from again. >> sean: before y didn't i think of that? that's terrific. i'm going to give you one precious uninterrupted minute. >> i find that hard to believe, but i appreciate. i'll take it. >> sean: i'll watch the clock. i want you to answer this question. >> okay. >> sean: 12 stories on benghazi, 12 versions of talking points that went from a truth to a web of lies. okay? and in the irs story, by my count, five adjustments, versions, that have come out from the obama white house. tell me why. you've got one minute. >> i don't know. i'm not in the white house. i've been gone for almost two years. so i don't know the details of

who had said who to what, but i think to characterize that, it was all an election ploy, the benghazi issue was the subject of one of the presidential debates. i don't think something that's the central issue of a presidential debate could be considered not involved in the presidential campaign. and as i've said on this show, te me the issue on the irs scandal , if they targeted only conservatives, that's a major problem, and they have to get to the bottom of that. that has major legal implications. thus far, the inspector general's report came out, and i believe that the evidence is saying that 30% of the enhanced investigations were were conservative groups. if so, i think we at least should explore a little more what's going on. >> sean: your minute is up exactly. >> i got it in. >> sean: let me go to benghazi. we'll start there. we know the cia said they needed more security, and the people on

the ground asked for it. it was denied. don't you want to know who denied that? >> yes. >> sean: okay. >> if that's exactly what happened. >> sean: that is what happened. >> you are more of an expert about it, following it closely, and i have no . it is my understanding that there was significant disagreement between the cia, the fbi, and several other groups, and that's what's bounced around in the talking points. >> sean: multiple requests, they were denied. during the attack, we still don't know where the president of the united states was after he was told about it at 4:00 in the afternoon. shouldn't we know that? >> i have no idea. >> sean: and should we know -- there were two standdown orders when americans were under attack that night. >> you're an expert on this. i know you've been following it closely. i'm at a disadvantage. i haven't followed it. look, when americans are under attack, even if they're not under attack, in general i favor more information, not less.

>> sean: all right. last question -- >> if there are national security implications, as we can all agree, maybe it should be done within the intelligence. >> sean: the first talking point had the exact truth of what happened. >> now i don't agree with you. >> sean: they knew it was ansar al-sharia and -- >> there was a major disagreement between multiple agencies. it wasn't just the state department. i know you keep saying that, but now there's this anything else that -- >> sean: now you're spinning it. >> -- that they changed the emails -- >> they did change it. >> no. whoever gave it to the press doctor the emails. >> sean: the whole thing was a lie. and greg hicks testified -- owe. >> when you say it was a lie -- >> sean: we got to take a break. we'll come back. i'll try to lift you off the mat, help you. we'll get his opinion on the irs we'll get his opinion on the irs story all stations come over to mission a for a final go.

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>> sean: we continue with austan goolsbee. the irs knew six months before the election that conservative groups were targeted. don't you think that we, the voters, should have known that? >> possibly, though they were doing an investigation. >> sean: why not? they knew six months before that it happened. >> they asked the inspector general to inspect. >> sean: right. >> you certainly shouldn't announce things about the investigation while it's going on. >> sean: wait a minute. it could have a big impact on the election. >> it might have, but then ask why didn't chairman issa say anything? i mean, he was told in march of 2012. we shouldn't be talking about investigations that are going on. >> sean: the irs could have told the country, we discovered we're targeting. what they did, to trump the ig report, they went out on their own. >> wait. the irs -- i agree that part was weird, this thing about planting somebody to ask a question.

>> sean: yeah, it was horrible. >> now that's the person pleading the fifth. that whole thing i don't understand. in this circumstance, though, with the irs, i think it's importa figure out, is being conservative the thing that they were targeting? >> sean: it was. >> that's in dispute. >> sean: no, it's not. >> the data now show only a third of the special investigated groups were conservatives. >> sean: she came out and said they went after groups with the word tea party, patriot, conservative. >> yes, but the other guy, miller, who testified said only the 70 of the 300 were in that tea party and conservative investigation. >> sean: why wouldn't she just tell the truth? why does she feel the truth? >> i don't know. i couldn't understand what was going on. sean: do you think she feel threatened? >> i don't know. she made an opening state, then

wouldn't talk about it. i couldn't understand what was going on. i thought the previous guy, miller, had information, it was clear. >> sean: it's easy to pull teeth and get a good answer out of you. >> that's a great answer. i was agreeing with you. >> sean: greta is next. see you tomorrow. >> greta: tonight, did top irs official lois lerner outmart the congress? she took the fifth, but only after getting out her own message. >> i have not done anything wrong. i have not broken laws, broken irs rules or regulations. i've been advised by my counsel to assert my constitutional right not to testify or answer questions related to the subject matter of this hearing. >> she just testified. she just waived her fifth amendment right to privilege. you don't get to tell your side of the story and then not be subjected to cross-examination.