that becomes something more. >> again, thanks for watching us tonight. i'm bill o'reilly. please always remember that the spin stops right here. we are definitely looking oouou. >> welcome to the special edition of cozy has been. he "hannity". with us tonight, he spent 7 years and congress and served under president bush. tonight for the entire how he will be here and joining me is special studio audience is former secretary of defense, donald rumsfeld. how are you? >> excellent. thank you. >> i think it would have been better as rummy's rules. right? >> no. >> one of the thing i got out of

the book is it kind of described my life. you have to be willing to start at the bottom of. i was a waiter, bartender, a paper boy, painted, hung paper, house roofing and framing. >> you didn't clean rugs like i did. >> no, i didn't. >> or mop a dress room in down. >> all the kids today want to start at the top. >> i don't know. but you learn a lot doing all those things and you learn from people you work with. >> you get into a position like you had where you are managing an entire department in government, it probably helps that when you see the people that are working hard everyday and starting out, but you remember where you came from. >> indeed, you have to. and i did. it was one of the wonderful things about it because you have had some of the similar experiences. of course, i also served in the navy so when i was at the pentagon, my father was in the navy before me. so i had that background as well, which is a help. >> but the reason you say start at the bottom, it gives you

humility. except some people rise through the ranks of television talk show hosts, i can name names, they aren't humble in their real life at all. [laughter] >> it's not an autobiography here, okay? but it really, humility is a great trait to have in a leader and starting at the bottom gets you there. >> it does. and having done what you are asking others to do helps. >> all right. one of the things i was so glad to say -- i'm saying rummy's rules, i'm shortening the title, i hate meetings. i find most meetings are long, en necessary, a waste of time, and you say if you even need to have one how to run a meeting. >> the first question is to decide whether you really node one. meetings can be really enormously important because you can get everyone in the room working off the same set of facts and communicate to everyone at the same time. but so many people find meetings wasteful at times. they start later, they go too

long, people repeat things and aren't prepared. you don't have a good agenda, they don't summarize at the end. a good meeting is a good meeting and it's important but there are so many that aren't. >> and there is so much technology. gotomeeting.com, and facebook, you can collaborate and you didn't have to make the long trip. another rule you have is picking the right people. there are insecure people who never want to pick strong personalities around them. one reason i would argue for any successive is i have great people around me. some of even smarter than me. >> most? >> thanks a lot. all right. that's the hour. thanks for joining us. >> no, a's hire bs and bs hire cs. one of the most important thing you can do is when you are coming up find as and try to be around them and the people that are around them and learn from them because they sparkle.

>> they given you ideas. >> exactly. >> and if the program is "hannity." i get get for ideas whether i had it or not. and one of the things that you -- people don't think strategically. that's one of your rules. be strategic in the things you are doing. why are people more strategic in the way they go about their lives? >> first of all, it's hard. to be strategic you have to find out what is more important than i think else and say that's where we are going. think of ronald reagan when he was asked his policy on the soviet union, and he said we win, they lose. >> that's strategic. >> my goodness, is it strategic. everyone in the organization then knew that's where they were going. and indeed, that is where he took them.

god bless him for it. >> in many ways, and maybe this is -- we will get into benghazi and we will get into libya and the irs in a few minutes with you, but i think when the president refuses to acknowledge a truth that libya was a terror attack and tell the american people the truth or fort hood, the official government line to this day, fort hood, killing of innocent people, was an instance of not terror, but workplace violence. strategically if you make the decision you can't acknowledge the truth, you will never solve the problem. >> that's true. we are suffering from that today. there's no question about it. people are so afraid of being seen as against a religion that unwilling to talk about radical islamism and the fact that there are people in this world, not a majority, not a majority of muslims, a small minority that are determined to

wipe out -- >> it's a pretty large majority. a pretty large percentage. >> percentage, but not a majority. >> not a majority. no, it's definitely not a majority. >> no. >> one of the things -- this is all rummy's rules , by the way, and we will get to monica crowley's rules in a minute. she's in the audience. you have to plan for an uncertainty. in the news busiss you have to be ready for something is going to break that i didn't plan for. life is like that. and in politics, being in the defense secretary position, you are always planning for the unknowns, right? >> indeed. there are unknown unknowns, things that occur and they occur and you have to deal with them and cope with them. i have a chapter on crisis management in the book, and it's not something that is easy. it's hard. but it's terribly important to get the facts out and put the

facts out so that people know the truth about something. and if people grab arguments of convenience or put out a narrative that doesn't prove out over time, they are hurt. they are badly damaged. >> in the next chapter after planning for uncertainty is unknown of unknowns. and it's true. you know, life -- and this is -- one of the things that bothers me is i think it's very hard for good people to wrap their arms around one simple truth. and that's that evil exists in this world. we saw that in boston, we saw that with this guy that kept these young women hostage and raped them for ten years. we see it with radical islam, we saw it with naziism and communism and terrorism. and why can't people acknowledge that simple truth? >> the only way you will prevail over an enemy, and that is an enemy, radical islamism. call is what it is, label it,

and be willing to engage i had logically against those thoughts. people think of the war on terror as more of korea or world war ii but it's more like the cold war. it won't be won with bullets alone. it will mean engaging their space and reduce the people of people that are recruited. reduce the number of dollars going into this training people to go out and kill innocent men, women and children. that's what has to be done but we aren't even in that battle we aren't even occupying that space. >> we will continue with donald rumsfeld. how you feet the press. your press conferences were classic entertainment i think there is a lesson to be learned here. and also the case for capitalism you make inside the oval office, and we will tackle benghazi, the irs and of the current scandals as we continue with donald

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trust the brand more dentists and hygienists use. oral-b. and hygienists use. the blisters were oozing, and painful to touch. i woke up to a blistering on my shoulder. i spent 23 years as a deputy united states marshal and i've been pretty well banged up but the worst pain i've experienced was when i had shingles. when i went to the clinic, the nurse told me that it was a result of having had chickenpox. i wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

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unknowns. the things that we do not yet know that we do not know. there are things that we do not know we don't know. now what does that tell us? that is really only the known no ones, and the known unknowns. [laughter] >> all right. what did you say? you can't believe you said that. >> i can't believe i said all of those. >> those were the eye i don't knowic press conferences by defense secretary donald rumsfeld. some of the known and unknown knowns. that made it into his book. can you explain this known, unknowns? >> well, it happened because i was chairman of the ballistic missile thrill commission and there were four or five generals and four or five ph.d.s, all of them very smart, and in that discussion came that thought. that there are things we -- that no one knowns, things we know we don't know, but there are also

unknown unknowns. the things we don't know we don't know and and the ones that get you. >> but that makes perfect sense the way you explained it. but in that moment with the liberal press, they had no clue what you were saying. >> they didn't, and they made a lot of fun of it, and they were wrong. [laughter] >> well, that raises a whole chapter of your rules, meeting the press. there were two people that i know in the world of politics that gave the most entertaining press conferences, you and giuliani. you can add chris christie to the list. but what was the relationship you had with the press, somewhat adversarial, that others don't have the stomach for? >> i don't know. i just enjoyed them. >> you did? >> sure. and my wife told me this one time. she said, don, they have their job and you have your job.

and that's the fact. so if you deal with them openly and honestly and often they would state a question in a way that would try to take you down a certain path, and i found out that you can proceed perfectly logically from an inaccurate premise to an inaccurate conclusion and therefore you have to untangle the premises that are not accurate and restate their question. >> almost help them out. >> i would help them out. and i would try to restate the question in a way that the answer made sense rather than?u going into a cul-de-sac. >> you said it was liberating to say you don't know? >> it is. once you decide you are comfortable saying you don't know, you will use it often. >> what about the bureaucracy and battling the bureaucracy? that was a big part of your career. >> i think it was franklin roosevelt who said trying to manage the department of the

navy is like fighting with a large pillow all day long, and at the end you are exhausted and the pillow hasn't changed one bit. and abraham lincoln said something similar. if i were to try to attend all the details of the army, it would be like trying to empty the teaspoon. >> what coming up, we will get to current events and benghazi and some of the other current administration scandals. we will be joined by our panel and special guest as "hannity" and special guest as "hannity" you hurt my feelings, todd. i did? when visa signature asked everybody what upgraded experiences really mattered... you suggested luxury car service instd of "strength training with patrick willis." come on todd! flap them chicken wings. [ grunts ] well, i travel a lot and umm...

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that this was not a preplan add tack that. what happened was it was a spontaneous reaction to what just transpired in cairo. as a consequence of the video our current assessment is that what happened in benghazi was initially a spontaneous reaction to what just transpired hours before in cairo. almost a copy cat of the demonstrations against our facility in cairo which were prompted by the video. what our assessment is as of the present is what began spontaneously in benghazi as a reaction to what transpired some hours earlier in cairo. >> susan rice appearing on sunday talk shows after the september 11th attack on our consulate in benghazi, libya. it wasn't spontaneous, wasn't related to a you tube video. this was the 12th, that we know of, edition of the

talking points. it evolved into that lie. how big of a scandal is this? >> they say truth leads a horse back and are returns on foot. and it's damaging. the -- i haven't heard a person who had knowledge of the event who described it that way. nobody, nobody. nobody thought it's a demonstration i had heard, anyway z nobody thought that it was related to the you tube video. >> yes. >> sean: let me go to the shot of the president and joe biden on the campaign trail. they're claiming al qaeda is no longer a threat. we've got to see through through the prix of time and election upcoming and forth coming. let's listen to this and see if it has impact on the lies they've told. >> most of al qaeda's top

lieutenants have been defeatsed. >> i said we'd go after bin laden if we had a clear shot at him, and i did the goal is now within our reach. >> thanks to air force personnel who did their part, osama bin laden is no longer a threat to our country. we put al qaeda on the path to defeat. >> osama bin laden is dead and general motors is alive. >> al yaed on the path to defeat. osama bin laden is dead. >> al qaed. >>. >> we eliminated osama bin laden that. was our purpose. >> two months before the elections, that narrative they were selling turned out not to be true. do you think that is the reason why those talking points, the cia had it right from day one? do you think they lied to get reelected?. >> i can't know the answer to

that. what i do know is that anyone dealing with that problem of al qaeda knows that we have killed leaders in al qaeda. and they are replaced within a matter of a month. there is a new one. you may go through three leaders in one part of iraq or afghanistan and they'll be re -- replaced. that is what happened. and that contingent that is -- has to be understood to be not correct. >> let's walk through this slowly. we know that the cia warned that there might be an attack on the september 11th anniversary. i would think that is a logical conclusion in deed. there were requests for security denied before the attack. during the attack we know from hearings there were two stand down orders people willing to go help those people under fire. then, talking points were right.

and it evolved into a big lie. without drawing conclusions what should we see in? >> one thing you didn't mention is the fact that the brits pulled out because of the threat. >> sean: correct. >> these people on the ground in benghazi requested additional security. and it wasn't provided. first responsibility is if you are going to put people in place you provide security for them. if not, you remove them. you don't have to keep them there. but, i think that narrative they -- that evolved what happened on the ground didn't fit the narrative. and the narrative overcame the facts. it sounded -- . >> why do i think if this was you and george w. bush, that leading into an election, would it have been a lot different coverage? >> well, i am inclined to agree with you.

in fact, doi agree with you. it is the truth that. is the way it works in our country. and -- . >> sean: but the president was told about 4:00 in the afternoon. what we've heard from secretary clinton he wasn't curious. he didn't ask or request an update. our consulate is under attack. our ambassador, under fire. apparently twont bed got up the next morning and went campaigning. >> he did. i think he went where? las vegas or someplace like that. it is a shame. we've lost four public servants, fine people. and but what is really troubling beyond that is the fact that this pretense that it was something other than what it was, if we're not willing to face up and say there are people in the world that are out to kill innocent

men, women, and children, and to-to-end the concept of a nation state and to impose a -- i don't know how you can begin to compete against it. calling it work place violence, what takes place. >> sean: often the president blames kiosks, atm machines, and fox news. >> and bush. >> sean: and bush. exactly. what do you think of him? he's analyzed the bush administration thoroughly. blames you all the time what. do you they've his administration? >> i think one of the most dangerous things our country can do is to indicate that we're weak, and in decline. we're managing our economy, modeling it after europe, a failed model. we're signals going out anyone looking at the united states knows you cannot continue to incur these deficits and

detectives we're piling up. the sequester says we're not going increase the defense department we're going cut tens of -- close to a trillion out of the next 10 years. what is that signal to the world? that america is not going to be playing the role kit play. not going to be the model it's been. it's not going to be able to contribute to a more peaceful, stable world. we create a vacuum. what fill that's vacuum? when the united states withdraw goesing into decline is people with values different from ours. >> sean: when we come back, the audience takes over the show. more with our panel, donald rumsfeld right after the break as "hannity" continues. from live from america's news headquarters i'm ainsley earhardt, president obama

reuniting with chris christie today, touring that area together last fall after super storm sand eye tore through the northeast. they're expected to dot same again leading -- meeting with those still recovering and rebuilding. governor christie officially opened the jersey shore bri fri but many beaches and board walks are still not up and rung for the summer season. a fighter jet crashes off the coast of southern japan. this happened off the small island of okinawa. the pilot forced three jets from the plane and was pulled from the water by u.s. and japanese cruise. u.s. military has 50,000 troops in japan. half are on that island. the you us military is now investigating the crash. i'm ainsley earhardt and we'll return to "hannity" after a short break.

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and his new book rumsfeld's rules is now out in bookstores. we will start with michelle. >> thank you for being here. what is one less son or rummy rule, as you sean likes to call it, that you think this administration ought to apply immediately? >> good question. >> it is a good question. i think that the crisis -- they are in a crisis. that's for sure. and how do you manage a crisis? i think what you do is you -- i learned it when i was a navy pilot. when you are lost, the rule is you climb to get altitude, you conserve your fuel, and you confess. climb, conserve and confess. that's what you do. we've all been lost. and what they have to do, it seems to me, is just full stop and find out what ground truth is and tell the american people

what ground truth is. >> you know why that can't happen? because this president is radical. it goes against the grain of everything that he believes in who he is. disagree? >> i never took any courses in psychiatry. >> okay. k. t., we will go to you. >> you have been on the national scene for two generations. you have met everybody. you have met all the senior american leadership for almost 50 years and you have met the foreign leadership for the same amount of time. who strikes you in either in the united states or abroad as great leaders and why? >> great question. >> i was in nassir's funeral in '70 or '71. some said he wouldn't last because he was weak and he didn't want strong vice president, but we came out of a meeting with him, a former high

commissioner of germany michigan and robert murphy, the diplomat young warriors, came oust our meeting with him and thought, my goodness, there is a presence. and what he proceeded to do, when we were there, the soviets had troops everywhere, they had tanks everywhere, they 4 airplanes everywhere, and within a short period of time he had thrown the soviets out and he had proceeded to visit israel and provided a stable base in that part of the world for a good many years until i was killed by an off shoot of the muslim brotherhood. >> his autobiography is phenomenal. >> one other person. >> mrs. thatcher. i didn't get to her funeral service and i regreet that deeply. she said the trouble with socialism is, eventually you run out of other people's money. it really says it all. it doesn't work. and she said it.

she said it well. >> david web. >> when it comes to your rules, you have already broken one. there's more than ten. >> that's my last rule. don't have more than ten. i have 300. >> leadership exists at all levels of our society and for every american. rule 15 for the american people how they can rise above mediocrity and exhibit leadership at whatever level because exceptionalism is the result of our entire country and dna. it's important we see a resurgence of that so what is rule 15. >> well, then 301? >> well, i think -- i watched some testimony one time by a fine historian, david mccullough, and he took time for a congressional committee and asked what one thing he

would wish for for this country, and he said he wished the schools would teach history. and it seems to me that that's good advice. because you have to start with young people and we have to know what it is we are about and why this country what it is. the roads here weren't paved with gold. people came here through tough circumstances and built this amazing experiment and democracy and it was tough. think of the civil war, 600,000 dead and slaves into the 1800s and women not voting into the 1900s and it's been a tough road. and the thing that's done it is people. people contributing. >> all right. quick. brook? >> you mentioned earlier that we suffer from this disease of political correctness where we cannot talk about islamist terrorism without being called

islamicphobics. words are being redacted, fbi officials are being fired for being that. what is your advice to citizen activists who want to speak openly about this but are afraid? >> if we want to lose, keep doing what we are doing. because if you are unwilling to call the truth the truth and say what it is, you are absolutely doomed. you can't live a lie. and i think it was mark twain said you can't pray a lie and huckleberry finn, and you can't. as much as somebody would want it to be that way, you can't. the truth is the truth and ultimately will come out. we never would have won the cold war if we walked around and pretended that communism was just another way to do things. >> all right. we are going to take a break and come back, more with donald rumsfeld and our special studio audience as "hannity" continue

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>> welcome back to "hannity." we continue with former secretary of defense donald and our special panel of brilliant people. jude digs is next. >> hello, in secretary. thank you for being with us today. the military is very fond of action reports. when you look back and consider the america's experience in iraq and what the people has gone through and how it's now viewed, what would you, you us to do in -- urge us to do in sierra and iran? would you recommend militaryoq-ñ forces to either place? >> i don't know. and that's one miff rules, when you don't know you say you don't know. you want to help -- the thought of 70,000 syrians dead in this

period, i used to deal with assad's father when i was president reagan began's middle east envhe world would be better in assad jr. were gone. but what will replace it? look at egypt. there were a lot of good folks wanting to improve the country and1d; then there were the musm brotherhood and people who had their own views and they were better organized and the united states permitted and encouraged and blessed an early election and .fqtz it. i want to know who you were going to help in that mix in syria before you decided what you are going to do. and goodness knows the world would be better in assad weren't there and i hope he isn't some day, but i hope what replaces him isn't as bad or worse. >> tony. >> great to hear your comments and rules. during the bush administration

you took a lot of heat for the abu grab prison scandal. but you took accountability which is an essential part of leadership n benghazi four american heros have died, yet we see known in this administration of rising to the] taking accountability for this. is this, in your opinion, badder ship from the top or will wek find out after the fact neighbor good offer their resignation as a result of the action and lock of response to benghazi? >> i guess only time will heli. but tîá,ñ hear a secretary of se make the comment "what at this point does it matter" was heartbreaking. it does matter. it matters that people are dead. it also matters that we find out precisely what took place. and that's why these hearings are so enormously important it's the wonderful thing about the

united states navy, when a ship runs aground, the skipper is relieved, and he knows t it's not true in the other services and it's not true in a lot of aspects of american life. but there is something that is usefulsbs=uq accountability. i quite agree with you. >> monica. >> mr. secretary, thank you so much for your service to this great nation. i have a big question for you. d history, all of our enemies have been external all the way through the communist soviet block. the current enemy is fundamentalism and terror, and while it is external in reagreements, it's also internal. the threat is here in the terms of the boston bombers, the time square bomber, the muslim brotherhood and the stealth jihad. and i worry our constitution is not built to deal with this kind of internal threat. an enemy that is religiously driven that's correct as yous our rights%ñ and openness and r

tolerance against us. my question to you is are we fighting this war the right way? have we struck the right balance between liberty and security and how do wea9]c we dole with they being american citizens, how do we fight this war in an appropriate way so that we prevail when it's right here at home? >> i think we are going to fiendish way toward the right balance and mixaf>u there. and it will be the executive branch and the congress hall have to adjust to the fact we are in the 21st century, we are in the information age. technology has advanced to point where things change and we need to understand that and accept that. when 9/11 took place in 2001, there was a study that johns hopkins did on dark winter where they theorized smallpox in three locations in america, and within a year up to 1 million americans would have been dead under this

theory. and that was the backdrop of 9/11 that wn and you can imagine if smallpoxs country, states would have marshall law, they would have quarantine. when i was a youngster if you chicken pox they put an on your house and you weren't allowed out of your house and people weren'ti(÷aóhtx allowedr house. if we had that kind of biological threat in this, it would alter. we are the most vulnerable people in the world because we are the freest people in the world, we want to say what we want, go where we want and do what we want. the kind of threat youyhzñ propy described, we have to understand that we have to figure out the way we can >> mr. secretary, it's an honor. the obama administration has turned the pentagon into a  religious liberty is under

attack. recently an admiral said they are being told to check their religion, christy anti at the door and one army briefing went so far to classify evangelicalism and other religions.e]dx]@ can you tell us how important faith is ingtu not just the pentagon but in the armed 9lñ >> it's an importanty>;u of our country and ouro wñ very beginnb began with faith. and our coins say "in god we trust" and our pledge of allegiance says" under god." it is a part. the free practice and belief in religion is a fundamental part of our country, and i would go so far as to say a critical part of the success of this country. >> we are goingqyfto take a br. we will have more with former defense secretary donald rumsfeld right after this quick break. stay with us after this quick break here on "hannity."

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aarrggh! >> welcome back. we continue more with donald rumsfeld, and our special panel of invited guests. we go to stephano. what is up, jennifer? >> let's put aside foreign policy for a moment because i loved your vigorous defense of capitalism. people like me who spend their life fight, for economic freedoms, believe if goods and services cross borders, troops won't. what do you think of rebuilding capitalism in the world and america to be a positive thing and how would that influence foreign polings to make us a more peaceful nation and peaceful world? at love people said what brought down communism is mcdonald's opening in moscow. what do you think of that? >> i think my favorite photograph is korean peninsula.

the same resources north and south, the same culture, the 15th largest economy on the face of the earth in the south and the north is starving. the only difference is in the south they have a free political system and a plea economic system and in the north it's a communist system and command economy. it says it all. it's something people ought to study and look at and believe in. it works. free markets work and if you don't like free markets, basically you probably don't like freedom. >> wow, well said. >> there is an upcoming election in iran in june. four years ago this administration dropped the ball on supporting a justified regime change behind a well-intentioned iranian nation. we don't know what the people are on the ground syria and not in libya and then in iran we know we have a large population of well-intentioned people, but this administration keeps on

allowing the regimes to play out the clock. we know they are supporting the syrian regime. i know you have gone on the record saying the sanctions are not working. what should be done? >> i think if there's a popular uprising in iran, and you are quite right, the people in the north and the people in the south, there's a mixture of people in the countries, and my sense is that we did make a mistake by not encouraging the last time there was that uprising. and i would hope that we would be wise enough to find ways to go supportive of it in the event that it occurs again. >> lori from the fox business network. >> just one last thought. there's an old saying, there will be no peace in the world until every man is free because to every man he is the world. and people in iran undoubtedly see what happens in other countries and feel repressed. >> lori?

>> mr. secretary, back here at home, how do we get this economy backfiring on all cylinders with a return to full employment? you have in the private sector running corporations as well as their time in washington. what's your advice? i know there is a difference of view in ceo's and washington and this administration in particular. >> we don't find people in business doing an effective job of carrying the case. and government, if i hear one more person talk about growing jobs from government, i'm going to pull my a hair out, what's left of it. government does not grow jobs except in government. and that's a burden, not a blessing. what we need to do is to understand that the task of government is to create an environment to people seeking opportunities, and opportunities and the job of the private

sector is to create the jobs and the products and the competitiveness. the whole concept we've been reading about something is too big to fail. my ear! nothing is to big to fail in the private sector. it gets replaced with something fresh and dynamic. washing down any retail street in america and go back later, the stores will be different and why? because they make a better product at a better price and god bless them for it. >> well said. last but not least. ron. >> thanks. i'm curious how you think world leader perceive president obama and his administration. he said he would have a new love for the united states and given the bright line he said he would place for syria, and how do you think world leaders perceive america and our leadership in the era of obama? >> good question. >> it is a good question, and my sense is that i'm told by world leaders that the idea that we

are modeling our economy on europe, which is a failed model, and isn't going to work for us, and that we are basically apologizing for america, america is not what is wrong with the world. and to the extent we walk around and pretend that america is what is wrong with the world, we are going to persuade people that in fact we are in decline. and when the vice president of the united states has to stand up and say we are not in decline, why does he have to say that? because we are. we are in the perception of the world, they see weakness in the united states. i don't mean military weakness, i mean they don't see the united states behaving in a way that suggests it is going to be a significant factor in the world, contributing to a more peaceful and a more stable world. and they need to see that. >> mr. secretary, very die namic hour. thanks so much for being with us. >> thank you. >> thanks for being with us.

that's all the time we have left this evening. as always, thank you for being with us. and i hope you and your family have a great night. >> bill: o'reilly factor is on. tonight: what is the biggest problem facing america today? the biggest problem the bial thhas is us, our >> how's the country changed since the 1950s? is it better or worse isn't 50s were wholesome, especially by today's standards. a vovoccative talking points analysis. and insight from charles krauthammer, and bare goldman. >> to use one example, president obama wanted benghazi to go away and the mainstream media pretty much helped it go away. >> caution, you are about to enter the no-spin