>> geraldo: this is a fox news alert. i'm geraldo rivera reporting that whether or not the president suffers lasting damage from the current scandal tritrifecta, benghazi, the irs and president probes the career of his attorney general and friend eric holder hangs in the balance as he knew stands accuse of lying to congress when testified he was not involved in the criminal probe of fox correspondent james rose. >> with regard to the potential prosecution of the press for the disclosure of material that is not something that i have ever been involved in, heard of, or would think would be a wise policy. >> was he not telling the truth on that point? yes. >> was involved in it. >> involved in what?

>> he signed off on the search warrant. are you not involved after signing off on the search warrant? >> i would refer you to the justice department. >> holder lied to a judge. he had no intention of treating rosen as a criminal. he said that to get the subpoena because that was the test he had to pass in order to get the sub yo subpoena. >> as attorney general you are the chief law enforcement officer of the country but a cabinet official and on the president's team and have an obligation to report the president's priorities. >> geraldo: history has not been kind to political attorney generals often casting them in the role of scandal scapegoat. gonzalez took the flap in the firing of several federal prosecutors. nixon era a.g. richard resigned after playing a minor role in waregate by ski starred former attorney general john mitchell who ultimately went to jail for

conspiracy, obstruction and perjury. >> on may 16 the president was asked whether he has confidence in the attorney general and he answered in the affirmative. is that still the case? does he still have confidence in the attorney general? >> he absolutely does, yes. >> geraldo: and momentum builds to demand the resignation of the attorney general of the united states one strong voice i'm eager to hear from it my own family's representative from congress. republican peter king of new york. welcome to the program. what are you thinking? does eric holder have to go is it premature? >> i think eric holder on his own should resign. having said that i think it is up to the president what he wants to do. certainly controversies around holder and around the attorney general. the latest thing with fox news and james rosen his contradictery testimony. i think he would be doing everyone a favor including the president if he voluntarily

stepped aside. >> geraldo: is it a fact that he okayed the surveillance of the reporters in the criminalization of the espionage act of the reporting process or is it that he may have told untruths under oath before the congress of the united states and might therefore be guilty of perjury? >> i think there is a real possibility of perjury. but i also know as a lawyer and i have been practicing as awhile that perjury can be he hard to prove. the fact is that the cloud is hanging over him. the fact that he has given so many contradictery signals as to what happened with the fox news subpoenas and particularly with james rosen. he has become too much of a lightning rod and on an issue like this to me the attorney general and justice department should be above a political fight of this type and i think to restore confidence and for people to know this is being treated honestly and directly eric holder would be doing everyone a favor by stepping aside. >> geraldo: as you know, eric

holder is a dear friend, personal friend of the president of the united states. where would the impetus come. in come from eric holder to protect his friend the president of the united states from further pressure or embarrassment or come from the president of the united states saying listen, general, you are just too much baggage right now? >> the president is loyal to his friends and i admire that in a certain way. i really do. this should be up to eric holder to voluntarily come forward. i don't think the president absent proof of a crime is going to go to eric holder and subtly suggest that he step aside. >> geraldo: i know that you don't like leaks. as long time chairman of the homeland security committee leaks is the last thing a legislator, person on the inside of this vital sensitive intelligence wants. who you do you balance that? how do you balance the need of reporters to do their job with the sensitive national security concerns of the government

without stepping clubfooted as it apparently happened here all over the first amendment? >> geraldo, let me say up front i last may, may of 2012 called for an investigation into the leaks involving what happened in yemen because i knew how sensitive that was and how damaging that was. but to me, if those investigations are going to be carried out the people being targeted should be those doing the leaks. if you have to look at which reporters they were talking to that should be done with a rifle, not a shotgun. that is like the last step to be taken. that is what really bothers me about this. not that they are investigating leaks. they should be investigated and any one who leaks to a reporter any one if it as serious matter, if it is classified information should be prosecuted for that. but if you are going to go after reporters it should be done in such a finely directed way and with so much thought given into it and that is the thing with eric holder. he seems like he doesn't know how it happened or whether it did. to me this would be so

significant if i were the attorney general or you were the attorney general and we decided we had to subpoena this many records of a news reporter this would stick in your head. so much thought that you wouldn't forget it. he seems to be almost oblivious to what he did. either he did it intentionally which is wrong or is indifferent to it which in many ways is just as bad. >> harry truman had a sign on his desk the buck stops here. bill kristol oh pined the president has a sign on the oval office do not disturb. do you credit that the president of the united states is oblivious to all of this happening? >> the president is the chief executive and chief constitutional oftier is should know and has to be made aware of these things happening. can't insulate the president. this isn't like a gangland or

some corporate lawyer who wants to keep the boss shielded from what is happening. the president as commander in chief, as the chief executive officer in the country should be knowing anything that is controversial and could be infringing on rights and this should have been a serious enough decision this should have been discussed with the president and once you got going should have been discussed with the president as the irs should have been brought to his attention as it should have been known. >> geraldo: are you calling on the attorney general of the united states to resign? >> if i were eric holder i would resign. i'm reluctant to go after a cabinet official of any president. they are entitled to have their official is. he think eric holder should voluntarily step forward and resign. i would hope that he would on his own do it. maybe there is a subtle distinction there. i hope he will make that. >> geraldo: say hi to all of the west babylon eagles there, my hometown. thank you very much. >> thank you, geraldo.

>> geraldo: coming up, more on the tree veils of the attorney general. the whistle blowers will weigh in on mr. holder's fate. former secretary of defense donald rumsfeld who tell us why he thinks the administration of president obama has gone wrong. colonel olver north will share at secret at the heart of benghazigate. and the former head h of the irs will explain why the guy who took his job visit the white house 156 more times than he did. back in a flash. my mother made the best toffee in the world. it's delicious. so now we've turned her toffee into a business. my goal was to take an idea and make it happen. i'm janet long and i formed my toffee company through legalzoom. never really thought i would make money doing what i love. [ robert ] we created legalzoom to help people start their business and launch their dreams. go to legalzoom.com today and make your business dream a reality. at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side.

do you feel that you are a scapegoat, that you have been singled out as the one person who bear the brunt of the public responsibility for any excesses committed during the bush administration? >> what i will say is i accept full responsibility for the actions that i took. i don't think that i deserved some of the criticism and some of the treatment that i received. i think following the release

of the reports confirming that i did nothing proper i do deserve my good name back. >> geraldo: he is the chief law enforcement officer but right now like others before him, it is attorney general holder that needs a good lawyer. the attorney genera attorney ge great state of florida joins me. pam bondy. i'm delight. >> thank you. >> geraldo: what is general holder's biggest legal challenge right now? yes. >> has abouten in front of congress and the issue he is facing is whether he gave false testimony to congress and, of course, that involves really there are two issues. the fact that journalists were targeted. and not only the soughs 88ed press but fox news. and we know that he personally authorized that search warrant to go after journalists. however, the ultimate question is whether on may 15 he committed perjury.

now, you can are goo you you it both ways. whether it was a lie because he -- we know that he personally authorized a search warrant or whether it wasn't a lie because his quote involved actual prosecution and, of course, that did not take place. regardless, however, i think the american people expect the jut most candor from all effected officials. >> geraldo: so he has a technical legal defense. >> sure. >> geraldo: but it is kind of tacky what he did? >> well, he has the technical legal defense. let me tell you, he is the attorney general of the united states of america. this goes much higher than eric holder. i ga guarantee you no search warrant on phone records, anything with physeter associated press went without the president of the united states knowing that that was happening. >> geraldo: so you believe that the attorney general now is essentially a scapegoat as

ailer with tow gonzalez maintained he was during the bush administration? >> we he don't know yet, geraldo. we know we are in the middle of congressional hearings. lot more has to be said. but the american people hold elected officials to a very high standard as they should. and whether anything is a a lie or not you have to have the utmost candor. just like hillary clinton. you know, with this muslim video blaming the deaths of four americans including our ambassador that is absolutely ridiculous that they would do that. and she needs to be held accountable in my opinion. >> geraldo: coming up, we is the whistle blowers' attorneys. they maintain that that is a clear coverup in their opinion or their clients clients' opin, gregory hicks and the other gentleman whose name escapes me right now. they say her fingerprints were all over in terms of sending

ambassador steven to benghazi but somehow that got sanitized before the official report was published. >> and instead of running for president right now she should be diving for answers and looking for answers and truth into what happened instead of trying to cover up what happened. >> geraldo: per popularity, i know you are not here to talk politics but her popularity has dropped significantly since the scandal. even with the lazy hazy days of summer and bad news, houston firefighters dying and tornadoes in oklahoma and all of the rest do you think that people are paying enough attention that it will affect is secretary clinton's political future? >> the washington post reported that 55% of americans believe there was a coverup. i tell you what, don't you think 100% of americans want to know he what really happened? >> geraldo: in terms of going forward with the attorney general, you heard congressman king others will say resign, resign, resign. --you believe remotely that

there could be a criminal indictment this this case? >> we don't know enough. there are congressional hearings going on right now. what i can tell you is, of course, remember when ken starr was appointed as a special prosecutor that was done away with in 1999 by both sides of the ail because they didn't believe there was enough accountability. >> knew to have a special prosecutor. >> now, in order to get a special prosecution of the press that is appointed by the attorney general. this this case it can't be eric holder and it would have to be the deputy attorney general that would make the decision. right now with congressional hearings we have so much transparency and it is this is going through congress in my opinion at this point, geraldo. >> geraldo: you know what i'm mad at president obama, he singled out the attorney general of california as the best looking attorney general in the land. he clear le has not been to the sunshine state. >> thank you. kamela is very attractive and a beautiful woman. >> geraldo: as are you and i appreciate you going on for

your legal analysis. the fact that you are easy on the eyes has nothing to do with it. thank you very much. up next, the first to call it a coverup. coverup. the lawyers for let's see what you got. rv -- covered. why would you pay for a hotel? i never do. motorcycles -- check. atv. i ride those. do you? no. boat. house. hello, dear.

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gestarting may 20th atts participating bay area stores. ♪ going back to fast and furious. fast and furious a border patrol agent lost his life and no one was held accountable. the fbi was supposed to investigate that as far as what role did the attorney general play and the fbis told to stand down, leave the room that the attorney general said that the department of justice will handle it internally. >> the attorney general has not in any way broken the law. there are questions about whether or not these investigations were conducted

in the most sensitive way but the reality is the white house, the president, the executive branch, all of us have an obligation to make sure that important and sensitive national security information that can put american lives at risk is not leaked. >> geraldo: before they addressed the issue of the fate of eric holder my next guests were the first to brand the state department official review of benghazi a coverup. the attorneys for the whistle blowers. they join us tonight from burlington, vermont. victoria, in terms of the coverup, you believe that hillary clinton sent christopher stevens, ambassador see it he venices to benghazi for a specific -- stevens to benghazi for a specific reason and then in the official report is no where to be found in terms of being responsible for that. is that so? >> that's right, geraldo. i didn't know about that false statement the last time we were on the show. greg hicks my client told

beingckering when was weeing interviewed that hillary clinton gave the ambassador on the day he was sworn in the the assignment to make benghazi a permanent post and that is why he was there in september because he had to have the report done before the end of september before the end of the fiscal year. and for the arb, for mr. pickering to put in the the report that the -- chris went to benghazi independently of washington is an absolutely false statement and he knows it. >> geraldo: both of you, joe, you as u.s. attorney in d.c., victoria, you as a justice department official, you know, you have experience with the doj obviously and know eric holder as well. as he recall, joe, weren't you supportive generally speaking of eric holder being in the obama administration? >> i was. i was. i thought he had the experience and the attitude and the integrity to do the job. and i he was thrilled when

dismissed the case against senator ted stevens because of corruption inside the criminal division at the justice department. but eric has fallen down on-the-job sadly in a lot of ways. and when you appear to not know what is going on in your department or not involved or are making statements that appear to be not accurate will whether or not you were involved in subpoenaing a reporter it is not good for the department and really hurts the credibility of the attorney general. >> geraldo: victoria, do you see parallels between john mitchell and eric holder? >> sadly, i do. because mitchell started out as this very straight lawyer and he he didn't even want to be attorney general. but he was really straight arrow for the longest time. this are all kinds of scenarios in there where mitchell stood up to people from the white house and what happened in the very end with the itt investigation and robert vesco

investigation and water gate it was a trifecta then and by the way nobody calle called it poll when everybody was looking into their trifecta back in the water gate days. >> geraldo: do you think that eric holder has become john mitchell reborn? >> i don't know that eric holder has become john mitchell reborn but the scandals are the same. all of them going on in the administration. >> one thing is certain, geraldo, the fbi agent who sewned the affidavit to get the search warrant for james rosen's records that fern should not be an fbi agent. the assistant attorney and u.s. attorney that reviewed the request that was a pretextual search warrant. there was no bases to call james rosen a criminal. that was pretext and they lied to a federal judge to get access to the records. i think it was part of a war on fox at that time. the president of the united states literally himself

declared that fox was not a legitimate news organization. what do you think the bureaucracy is going to do when the president of the united states starts to demean people and institutions that the the federal government is investigating? >> geraldo: what about eric holder's fate, joe? does the attorney general need to step down? should he resign or rather, as an attorney do you counsel him to stay in there and fight? >> i don't think he is going to resign quickly. i think what is going to happen is when james comby is formally nominated to be the fbi director they will use that as a period to say since we are getting a new fbi director we probably ought to have a new attorney general. i think the justice department now is in freefall. they cannot govern effectively in the criminal justice area and even in the civil divisions. i think the department is in very, very serious trouble. >> geraldo: do you think as you sit there tonight, victoria, it is in the best interest of the united states that this attorney general resign? >> yes, because the justice department which is our home

that we love the justice department is now as joe says not able to function. you have to get it back on its feet. >> the department and the attorney general have no credibility at this point. you cannot the function as the chief law enforcement officer of the united states effectively under those circumstances. >> geraldo: we have to leave it there. out of time. joe, thank you so much. victoria, thank you. now, resume your vacation. thank you for interrupting it for us. >> thank you, geraldo. >> geraldo: up next, oliver north on the deep dark secret at the heart of benghazi gate at the heart of benghazi gate and john mccain on whe ...so you say men are superior drivers? yeah? then how'd i get this... [ voice of dennis ] ...safe driving bonus check? every six months without an accident, allstate sends a check. silence. are you in good hands?

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live from america's news headquarters i'm aknee that vogel. a major cleanup operation underway in the nation's mid section after a series of deadly tornadoes. the oklahoma city area getting hit the hardest. the twisters killing nine people there. hundreds more were injured. cooler overnight temperatures are weakening the destructive system but there is still a threat as flash floods have left communities around oklahoma city under nearly a foot of water. emmy award winning actress jean stapleton has died. you know her from her role as edith in all in the family. together they made history when the series ranked number one

five years in a row. stapleton's son says she died of natural causes at her home in new york city surrounded by family and friends. she was 90 years old. i'm anita vogue he will. now, back to "geraldo at large." vogel. now, let's go back to kerr at large."kerr >> who does the call? five hours in he calls the secretary of state. it looks as if the only phone call was to construct a cover story at a time when the last two americans who died were still alive and fighting for their lives. there is the scandal. and that i think has got to be uncovered. >> geraldo: my next guest is a truly distinguished american who has served our country as a naval aviator, as a congressman, white house chief of staff, ambassador, a key cabinet member or are two. different administrations.

are in the important new book, rums fell rules, the former secretary of defense quotes an air force general by the name of lee but lore who said warning time not used is wasted time. it is like runway behind a pilot. in referencing general butler's comments did we waste time in libya by not heeding the various warnings before the attack on our ambassador and the others mr. secretary? >> it would seem to be the case. if you think about the the fact that the warnings to the british people in benghazi were such about the al-qaeda opinion related units that they pulled their people out and the warnings to our people were such that they asked for additional security. and unfortunately didn't get it. >> geraldo: so is that the worst of it? is the worse of the benghazi situation that we did not heed the warning, that we did not enhance security or, indeed,

that we are in benghazi in the first place? >> until the hearings take place, congressional hearings it seems to me it is hard to know presizely why the -- precisely why the various people there were. the ambassador, of course, has an obligation to travel and to represent our country in the country of libya. on the other hand, there were other people there and i don't know -- i don't think any one knows presizely why they were there or what they were doing and to be able to weigh their presence against the risk. >> geraldo: do you have a -- a situation here where one of the rumsfeld rules is if you make a mistake you own up to it as soon as possible. in the wake of what happened in benghazi did the obama administration do exactly the opposite? did they run from arc an appart mistake or misjudgment in terms of the net security presence? >> i think we will know more after the congressional hearings come out. the currency that a political leader in our country has is

credibility and trustworthiness and the fact that the american people believe because presidents and governments lead by consent not by command. and in this case trust got eroded because people said different he things. things were said one day and then a few days later someone would say something else. andth quote in my book one of the rules is that trust leaves on horseback and returns on foot. the point being you can lose credibility faster than you can return it. >> you quote dr. thomas shelby assaying more often than not the result of bureaucracies with too much information rather than too little and reference pearl harbor and attacks on the united states where there were warning signsd or not given proper weighting. is that again let's reference it to libya. all the noise all across the

world. it was the anniversary of 9/11. the cairo he demonstration. there were demonstrations in pakistan and other muslim countries. was there too much information we couldn't focus, we couldn't see through the noise, so to speak, to see the real peril our people were in this libya? >> i think that the noise in the system is sometimes can be distracting to people. we can kind of look at things and we get -- the things that are familiar we understand. the things that are less familiar we think are unlikely and the result is that people make mistakes and it is a tough job the intelligence business. i give credit to those folks who are in it. it is hard work and you can't always be right. but i quite agree with you that it was an anniversary of september 11th he. it was a time when all of the system was blinking red. people, the british pulled out. and it is important that we try

to do better at it. what is really hurt -- what has really hurt, however, is afterwards there have been a whole series of different stories and the idea that it had something to do with a youtube video that no one has seen was unfortunate because it caused a reduction in trust in the government. i mean the president went up to the yon and talked abou talke e you tube video and clinton went to the families of those that were killed and said we will catch the man who did that when it unquestionably had nothing to do with it. >> geraldo: you write about a vivid scene in your memory when the washington post story broke you were in the white house and the story broke about the five burglars at the democratic national committee and you said something like you know it better not have anything to do with us. it was the coverup in the watergate situation that doomed president nixon and made him resign. is that what you fear in the

current situation not so much whatever happened happened, but that they dissemabled, that they spun, that they changed the essential nature of what happened? >> what i said that morning in the senior staff meeting in the white house was if anybody had anything to do with this in the white house or across the street in the campaign we better land on them with both feet. and i feel that it is -- there is two rules. another couple of rules. the first rule is the coverup is worse than the event. the second rule is nobody remembers the first rule. and it is you been around washington. you know the truth. the truth is that if somebody begins to try to fabricate a narrative that is inconsistent with the facts you can get away it with it for are a short period of time but in the end it comes home to roost as it should and the truth comes out and i think the congressional hearings will bear that out. >> geraldo: if you going to tell the audience listening

right now for the number one golden rule, secretary rolls fell what would it be? >> i learned it as a naval aviator. if you are lost, climb, conserve and confess. take a deep breath, defendant on the radio and tell people you are lost. all of us at some point get lost and maybe we ought to send it to the white house for them to step back, take a deep breath and make sure the words they utter will be he drew. >> geraldo: thank you so much, mr. secretary. >> thank you, geraldo. >> geraldo: up next, why were 60 cia operators in benghazi in the first place? 60 cia guys. why? [ male announcer ] technology. it's pretty amazing.

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put myself in the operations center in washington, d.c. some where and you have an attack and an overrun of an embassy in cairo, egypt, why wasn't an alert bell sounded at that point in time? that would have given them five additional hours to start moving assets to anywhere across the north africa where they were having trouble all over there. i just find it hard to believe that nothing was able to be moved into place this that amount of time. >> from the beginning they knew that ambassador stevens was missing. that in and of itself was enough of a fact that the entire critical response system should have been stood up on its heels and it was not. and it was turned off we?

>> i don't know first hand. the likely explanations are it was a combination of politics and it was a combinations of not wanting to expose intelligence assets on the ground in benghazi. >> geraldo: in trying to uncover as we tried to uncover why our reaction to the benghazi attacks were so muddled nearly every operator and analyst we have spoken to and we have spoken to plenty of them believes that the secret nature of what the cia was doing there in benghazi at the time complicated the administration's response? what was that secret on expectations? craig asked. >> colonel, there are three scandals currently in washington, d.c. you have the irs. you have the chasing after the reporters notes and you have benghazi. what do you think is the most important? >> well, stars we know the irs hasn't killed anybody yet and james rosen you and i saw him in the office he is still alive. four americans are still dead from benghazi.

and unfortunately those who work in this building are not doing enough to find out why they died, how they died, and what they he have done about it. >> colonel oliver north the host of "war stories" sees a defiant white house and state department stone walling on genetic to deflect attention from what 60 cia operators were doing in libya in the first place. ollie says it is worse than iran contra. what i see happening today is a coverup. there was no coverup for iran contra. >> make a comparison from benghazi gate to what you went through iran contra? >> no americans died as a consequence of what we did. we saved the lives of americans being held as hostages. more importantly what happened with iran contra weapons were being delivered to friends of ours in the case of the nick resistance.aguan

>> iran contra was the biggest scandal of the regan administration. a secret scheme to sell pep weapons to iran hoping the ayatollahs would release americans being held hostage. at the heart of benghazi gate, many suspect was a similar secret scheme that those 60 cia operators were there to buy antiaircraft and other weapons from libya's militias to then funnel the weapons through turkey to rebels fighting in syria. then is secretary of state clinton dodged a question. >> it has been in news reports that ships have been leaving from libya and may have weapons and what i would like to know is the annex that was close by were they involved with procuring, buying, selling obtaining weapons and were any being transferred to other countries, any he countries turkey included?

>> senator you will have to direct that question to the agency that ran the annex. i will see what information is available. >> you are saying you don't know. >> i do not know. >> colonel is there the possibility that the reason that we didn't respond militarily, the reason that we had such a low profile in benghazi was because there was something going on that washington, d.c. didn't want the public to know about. in. >> well, craig, you know, this is a lot of things that the government does not necessarily want the public to know about. and that is understandable because if you tell the public the bad guys know. the problem here is that the bad guys already know. the biggest part of what was going on out there was 60 personnel, some contractors, some of them government personnel who worked for another government agency, not the state department. we though that there was contacts being made with radical elements inside libya some of it we believe to is collect up weapons that we did not want falling into the wrong

hands. there is su supposition there s training on there for special teams going into syria. >> also probing the benghazi, fox news washington correspondent james rosen. now, the target of a government probe. >> perhaps you can assure us that nobody, no u.s. personnel on the ground in libya on the night of september 11th was care arerying out covert operations outside of the scope of what was then the existing covert operations action authority? >> you're right, mr. rosen, we don't discuss intelligence from the podium. >> but no one was acting unlawfully in a covert capacity for the united states at that time, were they? >> american personnel act lawfully. >> and to facilitate the important business of protecting the national security interests of the united states i share your desire to put this issue to rest quickly and fully. >> colonel north testified in exhausting dail on the iran

contra affair and following a conviction on construction was eventually cleared of all charges. now, the tough ex-marine is calling for an investigation of equal intensity to find out what really happene happened in benghazi. >> i know from my experience there is only one way to get to the bottom of it and that is to hold a select committee responsible for it. what this administration needs to do is come clean about what they didn't do leading up to the attack, what they failed to do during the attack and what have they done since to make sure it doesn't happen again. we know none of the answers to that thing and we should. that is what the american people ought to know. >> the see vet cia operation going on in benghazi certainly complicated the rescue effort. still, intelligence officers i have spoken with believe the obama administration badly botched what should have been an all-out effor effort to getr

people out of harm's way. >> geraldo: why did the we have of the irs visit the white house 157 times? an insider talks, after this. uh-oh! guess what day it is?? guess what day it is! huh...anybody? julie! hey...guess what day it is?? ah come on, i know you can hear me. mike mike mike mike mike... what day is it mike? ha ha ha ha ha ha! leslie, guess what today is? it's hump day. whoot whoot! ronny, how happy are folks who save hundreds of dollars switching to geico? i'd say happier than a camel on wednesday. hump day!!! yay!! get happy. get geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more. ( crowd clapping ) ♪ say cheese! shouldn't the photos you share from your smartphone be photos actually worth sharing? introducing the nokia lumia 928, only on verizon 4g lte. easily capture vibrant photos in near-darkness.

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what would be some of the reasons you might be at the white house? >> easter egg roll with my kids. questions about the administerability of tax policy they were thinking of. our budget. >> as several congressional committees gear up to find out who ultimately authorized the irs to target the tea party and the other conservative groups, one bizarre fact getting a lot of attention recently is that during the time period in question roughly the two years between 2010 and 2012 doug

shulman, the commissioner of the irs, visited the white house, and you have heard this, whopping 157 times. so is that tsunami of visits evidence that shulman or someone inside the white house were meeting face to face in a way to keep secret their plot to target the tea party? let's ask the man who preceded shulman in the big job, former irs commissioner mark everson. so mark, i'm delighted that you are with us. now, when you heard the 157 visits, i know that a lot of people have been asking you about it. i mean, did a red flag get raised to the top of the flag pole? >> well, that's a lot of easter eggs, geraldo, if you will. i mean, if it's really going to be dismissed that way. i just think frankly the commissioner bungled this question. because there were two major initiatives here. there was -- tax reform was being discussed by the administration. then the affordable care act, what people call obama care.

and the irs has a major role in both of those. so it is understandable that there would be a fair number of meetings. but that's -- the number you've cited is quite a bit. >> now, generally speaking, during your tenure, were the meetings typically held inside the white house, or are they more typically held at irs headquarters or some building in the treasury? >> very limited meetings, geraldo, at the white house and the complex. i would go over and beg for money periodically, and that would be at omb. that's not in the white house itself. what clearly happened here was there were a large number of meetings that would appear on the affordable care act, and it just -- it should have been -- that question should have been handled more crisply and in a more forthcoming manner. >> do you worry that its involvement in the enforcement of obama care, given the fact that that is so highly charged and political, will rub off on the irs and make it a more political agency even absent the

current scandal? >> well, absolutely. i've expressed that concern, geraldo. i've testified to that. because what you need to guard is the independence of the service. it has a difficult job in any number of areas, but it's got to be seen and believed to be independent by everybody. by all parties. >> would you call on your successor, former commissioner shulman, to frankly and honestly and fully reveal to the american people even absent a congressional hearing exactly what he was doing inside the white house on those -- on those almost weekly visits? >> well, i think he does need to clarify what happened there. he answered it in a very general term, but i think he failed to say look, these are legitimate conversations about the health care and i don't know if he's going to testify before congress again or not, geraldo. but it didn't -- that piece of the testimony clearly didn't work out very well for him. >> my question isn't about who's going to resign.

my question is who's going to jail over the scandal. >> i've decided to follow my counsel's advice and not testify or answer any of the questions today. >> and in terms of irs employees and officials invoking the fifth amendment, i'd like your personal reaction to that phenomenon. >> i have absolutely no problem with that. once the speaker of the house says people need to go to jail and the attorney general authorizes and announces an investigation, each individual needs to make a decision about what's proper for them because it's no longer simply a matter of congressional investigation. i do hope that something can be worked out so that lois can testify openly, maybe with some limited immunity. but i don't blame her at all for invoking the fifth amendment given what was already under way. >> so you think the tax man can regain his credibility? >> i think it will be a long time because we have a lot of people who came in with the tea

party in 2010 and they're very concerned about this, and rightly so, frankly. this will be with them as a foundational element of their view of this agency for decades. my experience of the service up and down was that people tried to be impartial and do their job without any concern as to politics. so that's why this is so -- so sad and so disturbing. >> agreed. mark everson, thank you so much. i appreciate it. >> thank you. >> there are several hearings on the irs mess this week in washington. stay tuned to fox news. they'll have the latest on the irs scandal. we'll keep probing benghazi. the attorney general, we'll see what his fate has in store. what his fate has in store. that's i

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announcer: the next 30 seconds can save you a lot of money. just do your laundry in cold and stick to full loads. auto-sleep your computers. plug your gadgets in a powerstrip and switch it off when you're done. headed out? turn back your thermostat by 10 degrees.

and drive sensibly. the more energy you save, the more money you save. find other great tips at energysaver.gov. welcome to "red eye." it's like the love boat. if by boat you mean hot tub i installed in my living room. let's go to tv's andy levy for our pregame report. what's coming up on tonight's show? >> our top stories tonight. does low self-esteem cause people to become terrorists? the shocking story that won't make you feel good about yourself. which apparently will cause you to be a terrorist. probably shouldn't be doing this story. plus, has the u.s. government come out in support of test driving for self-driving cars? some say it's to keep an eye on self-driving technology. but others say it's to eventually make it easier to get people to the fema camp. finally, an animal planet mockumentary on mermaids leads to 3.6 million viewers tuning in

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