rant photos in near-darkness. even without the flash. sharing photos from the best low-light smartphone camera around. that's powerful. verizon. we'll be back soon for another edition of hannity. drip, drip, drip. every day there's something new. >> they testified about matters of >> the answer is yes. >> in this white house the lights are on, but doesn't seem to be anybody home. >> none of the principles in any of these scandals know anything about what's going on. >> if the president actually knew something well then clearly he is not being truthful and no

one around him is. if he didn't know anything i think it suggests a level offal loofness or perhaps even incompetence that i think is pretty disturbing in it's own right. once againcsjñ we have an administration who lost focus on government. that is a problem for all of us. >> this is a special edition of "on the record"." second term scandals to the irs to benghazi the obama administration trying to dig its way out. we begin with the $511ñirs. >> it is not just a scandal because of what was attempted but the attempt succeeded. >> 25 of these groups followed up against the irs and attorneys representing them say the abuse of power went a lot higher up than the white house first claimed. >> you don't expect that an incumbent president and administration would use a neutral instrument like the i

wrs irs to go about discriminating against the local opponents. >> the former irs commissioner douglas shulman visited the white house 157 times raising the question, what was said during those frequent visits. >> the easter egg roll with my kids. >> the idea that the irs commissioner is coming to the white house every nine days ought to raise warnings off the bat. there's an independent agency from the white house that shouldn't be part of the white house should be distant from the white house. >> we are going to do our job on the irs and doing over site. >> how high does the irs scandal go? should the white house really be oblivious? president reagan -- >> he didn't learn about this until sometime early may. the white house council learns

sometime late april. do you believe them? >> yes, i do. they are in real troubling trouble if they lied to the american people. this is astonishing. the irs operation against the tea party started three years ago. it took a year to reach the top of the irs, a year to reach the top of the treasury and a year to reach the top of the government. i do not believe that that is true. i think all up and down the line if they are going after the tea party folks people are saying they are really hammering the tea party guys that's what congress has to investigate. i don't believe white house people council or the chief of staff or the president of the united states would deliberately lie because they would have a horrendous problem if they did. what they have to do now is sort of a problem. they have a rouge agency over there they knew nothing about that has 100,000 employees. >> what do you think of the former commissioner of the irs was at the white house 157 times and at first i thought because

they are implementing obama care through the irs i thought that would be a reason for them to make a number of appearances, but then you have less than r50 by secretary seb beseb beall kw. >> the inspector of state doesn't go over there nearly as often as that. 150 some times. obama care he has to deal with. if they are working on tax reform every day some package i could see it. but i think he has an obligation to explain it. >> what does this do to the president's agenda with the irs scandal brewing? >> here's the problem. it is now coming up on january 1st. the irs and each agency of government is going to be overseeing arched ento ersing the least popular program of the federal government. this train reck as senator bulk called it is going to occur on the first of january.

i think they could have a hellish year for this program. it will deeply diskrezity government itself. the democratic party is the party of government. i think the president is headed for a very bad 2014 and i think the democratic party is and i don't know how they evade it or' void it. >> is this something he is interested in or did he shoot himself in the foot. the fact that the scandal has erupted on the watch. oo evening he created a climate and they gave a demonzation of the tea party. i will say this i wrote a comment entitled "the spectator president." he found out about the irs scandal the same day you and i did. he knew nothing about what was going on with james rose enat the justice department or the aishg p in the justice department. in benghazi, he can't have to go to do with a security problem.

he tells the same story to the united states being the president seems to be included about all of these things as an executive there's no doubt it's a failure. i hope and i believe he's telling the truth. i didn't know of any of that. he can't be -- >> the chief of staff said we have a one-week away. he should have walked over there and said mr. president we have doing back after and direct his phone number he's putting a full cut course. we elected him to go too far. he doesn't do it. >> prior to working with

president we go began is that the kind of thing we have to -- >> if it come to me i would have called holder and said look you better call the president and look what's coming. >> you go to the press if necessary. it is absurd to be kept in the dark all those sitting there on his plate right now he ought to be a tremendously aping gree executive. can you image that? you are the chief executive of the government boom, boom, boom and nobody below you told anything about it? >> what do you think is going on right now? >> i don't know the president personally, but i know three presidents -- i worked with three presidents and heads would roll if i hadn't told the chief

of staff holder or al hague something i had known picked up like that that had to go right in you would be in real trouble. you would say coldholder why in playses didn't you tell us this? >> it is a silver lining that ye one will be on board. we have to say something about the irs. nobody in washington does his own taxes and nobody understands the code. we are universal we have to do something? >> you are going to investigate the irs. this is going to demoralize and put government itself in disrepute. the idea it could take 12 years and two years to reach the treasury this is astonishing. it's the size and distance of the various agencies from their own leader. >> always nice to see you, sir.

>> pleasure. >> a former irs calling it catastrophic. we spoke about the standoff is the irs what i knowinged. >> how many do you have in this the chair buddy mr. ice saw to my recollection i only went over there once to discuss policy matters. they contrast what i was giving or i was concerned about the major role the service plays in the affordable kier act and the fact that it could potentially compromise the independence of the agency when you have the commissioner and his subordinates having to done on a regular basis with officials over in that part of the

government. >> what happened to the irs? we are in a situation where they are being accused and they are quite powerful and there is targeting. there's a question whether it was low level or if it went higher up. how does this happen? >> the service was from top to bottom to bottom people try to do their job impartially. they they try to get to the right answer and try to steer clear of politics. having said that, it's very serious, because one, for the service, and secondly, for the whole country, because the irs interacts with so many citizens, and it's such a fundamental part of the government. there are three things, though, to get to your question. first, i think there were some people down in cincinnati who just sort of for lack of a better term lost their minds. and they used criteria to review applications for exempt status that were just wrong. and they were biased.

sendly, at the intermediary level, it took two years to get this right. that's unconscionable. there were clear problems starting in march of 2010. and they should have been resolved promptly. and then the third thing, what was happening in the front office. there was no secret here. greta, i was getting calls at 11 and 12 saying what's going on. i didn't know much about it. obviously it was a great interest to many people, with congressional letters going in. the front office should have learned about it. testimony before ways and means should have been different and the record should have been corrected as soon as they knew that the testimony had been incorrect. >> and does the targeting go beyond conservative groups? congressman sam grace wants to

know if the irs also targets small businesses. what gives you reason to think that small businesses have been targeted? >> well, we know that the irs was targeting conservative groups. and at first, of course denied it, lied about it. and then when they were found out, basically, they leaked the information out and apologized. but we also know that in april of 2011 the obama administration had a draft executive order in which they were going to require any small business that was doing business with the government, procuring business with the government to have to disclose their political contributions over the previous two year period of time. now why would they want to know who small businesses that want to do business with the government, who they made contributions to? well, there's only one reason that makes any sense.

they wanted to reward their friends and punish their enemies. and that's completely inappropriate, probably illegal. and weigh need to find out whether it was occurring or not. we know that they had drafted that executive order. whether it was ever implemented, when the irs was doing what we know it now was doing. and douenying it, there's reaso to brief they may have been doing this as well. we need to find out. >> the draft executive order, it was never implemented or at least small businesses have never said they've been asked that. if the irs also targeted small businesses, it sounds like equal opportunity targeting, because they targeted conservative groups, small businesses i guess we need to find out whether they targeted any liberal groups. but if they targeted small businesses, it sounds like they're obnoxious and they want to make people's lives run. >> the way that you have to look

greta is that they wanted to know what political contributions they had made. so -- >> well, that's a different issue. >> excuse me? >> that's a different issue, because as far as i know, that was never implemented, was it? >> we don't know. there was fire form that came out, a lot of heck was raised by a lot of members of congress when this was proposed by the administration back in april of 2011. and of course we don't know for sure what they did about it at that time. we know they were no longer public about it. and i support chairman sam graves who has sent a letter to the irs to find out whether the irs was doing this or not. now the problem is, is a lot of the confirmation we've gotten back hasn't been truthful. >> rather than going to the potential guilty party, the irs, would it not be more effective to say to smul businesses across the country, have you ever been asked for your political dough

ma nati nations in the last few years. >> we do know that small businesses have been targeted unfairly, discrim na torl. and we feed to know this too. the american people have a right to know. >> let me send a message out to small businesses. if the irs is asking about your political dough makes, contact the congressman. >> and straight amed, the republican committee is suspicious of funny business. so suspicious the rnc is doing something. chairman is here and he'll tell you what he's doing. that's next. also eric holder trying to play nice with the media. people join angie's list for all kinds of reasons.

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candidate state department have communication with obama's reelection campaign after the benghazi terror attack. that's what the republican national committee wants to know. >> hey, good evening. >> first of all, what have you done to try to find out whether or not the state department had communication with the obama campaign? >> every citizen is entitled to open records requests. so we took our right to ask the state department to release any and all e-mails that relate to benghazi or libya that came from any e-mail address at barack obama or the dnc. and i think it's a reasonable question. there's so much consternation. >> based on what?

is there any, is there any sort of, you know, evidence or suggestion or even a smijion or anything? or is this a fishing expedition? or is this just something >> no, i think it's just a matter of the fact that we are in the closing days of the campaign. there was so much talk about these talking points and what they would say and not say. the fact that the cia called it an act of terrorism right away and all of this switched up and changed. susan rice came out on the talk shows singing a different tune. i think the reasonable question for us to ask which is was the campaign or anybody at the dnc involved in any way in communication with the state department on this issue. circumstantial evidence is there

to suggest somehow some political decisions were being made. unless we ask the question and we have seen plenty of subpoenas it is pretty simple stuff. it's one question. it is a simple question and it could be a sim teple answer. >> here's the major problem. in this city we all now pretty much know the dangers of e-mail. i suspect if there was funny business going on most likely it was done in a nonstate department e-mail. it was done that way. people still slip up and makes mi mistakes. if you had a more reflective way to go to the ndnc somehow which is not a government entity or to the reelection campaign to see if they had any information if there is something there more likely to catch something. >> too, greta in court you make

your record, too. if people don't comply with an open records request or there has been rulings, too, that just because you don't use a state department e-mail doesn't mean you might be subject to an official request used on an e-mail address. it is difficult. >> if you are doing all of this stuff you are not supposed to be doing on your private e-mail account you think they are going to say oh, you know what? i didn't use my e-mail but i used my personal one so here it is. >> that could be. i have also been involved in cases in my previous life where eventually you can get to the e-mails. it is also posing the question to the washington beltway which is any one thinking about the campaign, is any one thinking about the dnc. i don't believe it is our role

to start getting involved in what does the cia say to the doj. i think it's up to the members of congress and darrel issa. i do think it is reasonable for the national political party on the republican side to ask the question as to whether or not campaigns were involved in shaping the talking points in benghazi. i think it's important. we asked this. >> there are a lot of unanswered questions. hopefully we can go on. thank you very much, chairman. >> you bet. thank you, greta. >> coming up, the sweeping candles. calling for attorney generaler li rick holder to resign. dana perino is here to talk about that next. senate republican leaders on

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>> did attorney general eric holder mislead or lie to congress? should the attorney general step down? then there's the media giving holder the cold shoulder. >> at this point i don't see how the american people have confidence in the department of justice. >> eric holder not getting many tashgs from the invitation to journalists from the off the record sit down. voters pledging to change guidelines of investigations but is it too little too late? at some point the president has to say i love holder he's my friend my come bpadre my runnin buddy but he is hurting me and hurting the country and it's time to go. >> it is not a drag shoot on the

president. the president tries to stand by eric holder to defend him. >> with regard to the prosecution of the print to the disclosure material this is not something that i have ever been involved in or heard of or would think would be a wise policy. >> there are only two explanations penalize or he has one of the worse memories in history. >> we want to know what attorney general's involvement was in the issuance of the search warrant for mr. rose en. wrer going to follow this. >> i have an application they say in this application there is probable cause that mr. rose enhad committed a crime. if there was not they would lose their job and lose their license to practice law. >> the host dana perino is the press secretary for george w.

bush. thank you for being with us. >> thank you for having me. >> is there any reason you can image that this meeting between the justice department eric holder and the media had to be off the record? >> unless they were revealing something classified or in the investigation i can't understand why they would. i think background briefings are valuable in certain settings but in this case early on in a week they have signalled they wanted the attorney general they are remorseful and wanted to talk about the guidelines and set is straight. they got good press about that for about a day then when it was revealed some of the organizations wouldn't go i think they looked sloppy. at the end of the day it was very constructive. they should have put it on in the beginning. >> the ones that went were by

the rest of us in the media. not going to come you tell and say it was a stupid idea. those were intended to be constructed. the second thing i discussions about guidelines. this is the administration that said it was for transparency that sneaks behind doors and wants to meet with the press and put the spotlight on the government. i can't see in any way how this is betweneficial to the attorne general and it smacks them right in the 8>> i don't think i would have thought about bringing it to background. if they have guidelines and they are revised let's all have it. why can't everybody just have them all at once? that didn't make sense to me. >> do you think there would be a discussion at the white house about whether he should stay or not stay or is it too premature? he is getting a lot of heat this week and next week. the temperature could go way

down? >> probably in the most high up chamber in the chief of staff office. people keep their mouth shut and say the president has confidence i have confidence. the confidence has been eroded. they will get through this week going through the weekend and in about 6-8 weeks unless something else dramatic happens you will see an august period and a new cabinet period in the fall. >> we have about 30 seconds left. what's the strategy for him to stay on and rectify all that has happened? >> i don't know. he has a lot of repairing to do. if he doesn't have any problems with the president. if the president is confidence that's okay. on the hill even the allies think the attorney general is hurting your ability to put forward the domestic agenda then you have to make a decision putting loyalty aside and friendship aside the best thing to do for the administration and

for the government is for him to resign. >> i think the biggest problem is the attorney general is the highest law enforcement officer in the country. he will explain that one. >> they will say that he didn't lie but purposely misleading or technically gaining i agree it's the same thing. >> we don't expect the attorney general to be slick. if he has a good explanation let's see it and then move on. dana, thank you. >> first the fast and furious now the snooping and spying. attorney general eric holder is no stranger to scandal. he has a long and respectable legal career. bernie grim joins us. is it bernie i have known the attorney general for 25 years he had a great reputation when he was on the bench with the judge. >> he was talking today about using the word slick. no one would have that in the sense as the u.s. attorney or ag.

he's a regular guy. he has children. he goes to pta meetings. i know that because he went to the same school as my daughter. >> in 25 years when we are trying cases before him i would put him as the top 5 most respected decent to lawyers most respectful to lawyers and clients. never lose his temper never being unfair. it was extraordinary. >> we were both trying cases. importantly what do my clients feel like? when the clients found out they were happy. they didn't think it was going to be unusually good for them but they thought it was going to be fair down the middle. as a judge that's all you want to be. >> what do you make of the latest round] of stuff? >> not only did he say he wasn't

involved in the rosen investigation three-days later the justice department says he was involved in the details of that subpoena and phone records. >> what happened? he drank the political cool aid? >> i made the assumption this is a great explanation and i am totally wrong. if there is no explanation for his testimony what happens between that case and now? >> not only that but why a person at a major law firm in this state, why would you lose it as a public servant? >> i can see that. it is exciting to be attorney general of the united states. he wasn't money motivated this is a challenge. i could see that with this job. >> nothing has been offered to me. the person here is not the person that we know. justice department says we have an explanation for it.

the justice department says he was involved they say he wasn't. >> where is that explanation? they say they have one let's have it. >> the republicans are being accused of trying to cripple the obama administration as it limps along the finish line. every aj has been under attack in the past 10, 15 years. >> always nice to see you. would you give attorney general eric holder another chance or should he go? go to greta wire.com and vote in our poll. >> coming up the briefings will be a lot like a game of joj ball. can they dodge the scandals or will there be real casualties? we will look at that next.

>> live from america's news

headquarters i am anita vogel. new information on the irs scandal and the admitted profiling of conservatives. new transcripts of interviews with agents show political targeting may have originated way up the ladder not with field office rouge agents as the obama administration had claimed.= irs agents in cincinnati telling congressional investigators they got their marching orders from washington. >> a third day of protesting turkeys started in istanbul and spreading to other cities. thousands of people calling for the country's prime minister to resign. it was a political crack down of i am anita vogel now let's go back to on the record.

>> president obama and eric holder taking major hits. coming under rapid fire almost every single day. >> the white house response is people would send them to testify about matters of congressional siv >> it's a question but the answer is yes. in specifics to this matter the answer is yes. >> even the attorney general ruled out he was going to prosecute rose enthe question of potentialicxñ prosecution he sa quote this is not something i have ever been involved in, heard of, we know he was involved in it. was he not telling the truth? >> involved in what? >> the search warrant. >> you are not involved? >> you guys are inflating the subpoena with prosecution. i think it is --

again i would -- >> the technical accuracy you are holding on to. >> i am not. >> i am saying based on what i have seen inf74ty public report what the attorney general said i don't see the conflict. i would refer you to the justice department. >> don mccormick joins us.w'(p% jay carney on the hot seat now he's getting the heat from us. it's amazing almost a love affair between the media and the president seems to be over. >> i think so. for now especially with the doj and the e-mails of james rose enand others. i think that the welfare over ride. you think eventually the media will come back. people concerned about civil leb berts they have locked at other issues. liberals will eventually come after the president. seems like they are on the rocks now. >> first time going back to jay

carney, i think we looked at the political implications of these c scandals. he is going to be one of the victims of it. he nayed the -- made the statements they were -- i think it is wrong his credibility could take a giant hit on this. >> it would be easy to throw him under the bus. if they wanted to sacrifice somebody jay carney would be an easy start. >> political implications of the scandal. doj, benghazi or the irs? what do you think they are feeling the most going into the 2014 mid term? >> i think the irs is a big thing. benghazi it is hard to express what did the administration do, what are they doing. we see a pattern where it's worse than simply saying they accidentally fight for tea

parties. you can't protest planned parenthood. the real groups having very evasive e-mails. i think it's a threat that could be bigger. if it doesn't reach any one in the white house that would be a huge deal. the biggest issue i would sees the irs is tied up in obama care. one is it is implemented or over seen by the irs. i think republicans will be able to rally around this issue tie it to obama care and that will be what the focus is. >> how many de&4ge5ñ were for election in 2014. usually want the president to come and campaign for you. now since it's the irs they want irs investigations, too. put some of the vulnerable democrats in a tough position. >> you say how much of an impact of what this is having on president obama. the firm very well respected showed the crew rating tanking pretty bad. we will see.

>> it doesn't help virtually no one likes the irs. not like anybody is defending the i are,s. >> people know the irs, they don't image this is what these people did to their political parties what are they doing to do when they are overseeing isn't health insurance good enough? >> thank you. always nice to see you. >> straight ahead does kathleen seb beal why yous break t-- seb break the law? efforts to [ female announcer ] switch to swiffer sweeper, and you'll dump your old broom. swiffer sweeper's electrostatic dry cloths attract and lock dirt, dust, and hair on contact to clean 50% more than a broom. it's a difference you can feel. swiffer gives cleaning a whole new meaning.

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>> congressional republicans stepping up the call to kathleen

seb be sib bell why yous. they want to know if she broke the law with obama care. inspector general senator other ran hatch is one of them. he joins us. nice to see you, sir. >> nice to talk with you. >> senator, tell me what is it you are concerned about in terms of secretary sebelius efforts to fund obama care outside of the federal government to get federal funding? >> under the constitution the agency is funded in preparation clause of the constitution the corporations clause policy. when they can go out and talk to company that is they over view and nonprofits they over view and pharmaceuticals and ask for money for the implementation of the so-called affordable care act that raises ethical questions and serious criminal

questions or legal questions. we want to get to the bottom of it. i wrote letters i would say the senator from tennessee and senator coburn and myself we wrote a letter to levinson inspector general to the department wrote a letter to the attorney general and all members all republican members of the finance committee wrote a letter to secretary sebelius what's going on here and do it for an outside entity run by the person who helped to effect wait obama care when she was in the white house. >> is the obama administration in a fight to get to finance oba obama care the house republicans don't want obama care at all. the administration doesn't have enough money to fund it that's why they have gone outside to

try to fund it but they are seeking some of the funds from groups they oversee who might have a reason to give money. is that the situation do you think? >> hhs has a huge amount of money. the fact of the matter is they are not short of money in my opinion. obama care is such a disastrous bill they are eating up all of the money they have. they are trying to put the money in others who over view. that may be a violation of anti deficiency act as well. these are real serious questions we are raising. i am not willing to make judgments until we get some answers. we are not getting the answers right away either. >> are they answering anything? it would seem to me they know republicans are upset about that if they were doing something it would be easy to pick up the phone and say this is what we are doing. is there any communication back explaining what she is doing? >> not that i know of.

frankly, she should have known better. it raises a question what she did was ethical but the law is it illegal what they are doing. we want to straighten things out and get our country back in the situations. i thought today that the increase in costs of the so-called affordable care act or obama care in california has raised over 140 percent this next year. i don't know whether that is accurate but that's what i saw in the press today. it is going to be a whopping cause for our country and it isn't going to work. >> we will keep watching this story. senator nice to see you nice to talk to you. >> nice to talk to you. keep doing a great job. >> up next we could soon hear a lot more about what really went on at the irs and who really knew about it. find out what's ahead on the irs investigation that's coming up. ov the advil pm® guy is spending less time lying awake

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when i say dot, i want you to just push the period. she's going to love me all over again now. that's it! jamaica here you come! here we go. all right. good job. thank you. thank you. i did it. by myself. feel smarter. >> greta: the second term scandals are far from over. next week we could find out a lot more about the irs. congressional investigators getting ready to grill employees at the irs cincinnati office. the one at the center of the scandal and on capitol hill several irs hearings. on monday the house appropriations committee will hear testimony from the acting irs commissioner and treasury department in is spector general jay russell george. then on tuesday targeted tea party groups will talk to the house ways and means committee and on thursday the house oversight committee will hold a

hearing on a newly released audit that uncovers excessive spending at irs conferences. we will bring you the lat "huckabee" starts in ten seconds. . >> is america bordering on becoming a police state? and i have complete confidence in eric holder as attorney general. >> is it time for eric holder to go? >> plus, they came in with 30 swat attired people with automatic weapons. >> the administration's intimidation is not limited to the conservative groups. >> they seize d the