have left this evening. thank you for being with us. let not your heart be troubled. greta is next to go "on the record." see you here tomorrow night. greta, take it away. >> greta: tonight, it goes all the way to the top. even the new york times is calling it president obama's dragnet. >> the committee will come to order. >> i'm afraid that a wealth of skilled leaders is spreading across the planet like a virus. >> mr. america, were you mr. spock in the video? >> that's correct. >> overall we found that the irs spent an estimated $49 million for 225 conferences during the three year period of our review. >> in hindsight many of the expenses that were incurred in the 2010 conference should have been more closely scrutinized or not incurred at all and we

are not didn't and were not the best use of taxpayer dollars. >> are you familiar with the gsa official in the hot tub? have you seen that picture? >> i have seen that picture, yes. >> the famous guy in the hot tub probably did more to bring agree gus spending under krill. did this affect you at all? >> fascinating. >> you are in charge. you you have a public trust. you are paid by the american taxpayer to be responsible to be respectful, to have knowledge, to have oversight. and yet you can't even tell me when you -- when you thought this was wrong. in fact, you are saying that well, it was a pretty good conference. >> a bomb shell report this morning that the national security agency has been secretly collect thing the phone records of tens of millions of americans. a top secret court order forcing verizon to hand over the daily call information nor every single one of their customers with no suspicion necessary. >> the number of queries into

this information is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of one percent. >> i don't mind verizon turning over records to the government if the government is going to make sure that they try to match up a known terrorist phone with somebody in the united states. >> the attorney general eric holder says the justice department goal in investigating leaks is to prosecute government officials who jeopardize international security, not to go after journalists. >> the department has not prosecuted in as long as i -- and as long as i have the privilege of serving as attorney general of the united states will not prosecute any reporter for doing his or her job. >> there are certain goals that i set for myself and for this department when i started back in 2009. when i get to a point where i think that i have accomplished all of the goals that i set i will sit down with the president and we will talk about a transition to a new attorney general.

>> greta: first tonight the stunning news that the obama administration is spike on you. the nsa secretly collecting phone records of millions of americans. there is more. chances are the nsa is taking information directly from a company providing your e-mail service. the "wall street journal" saying it extends to credit card companies. karl rove joins us. good evening, karl. >> good evening, greta. >> greta: before we get to what is going on. the "wall street journal" and the new york times editorial board i will lay it out in front of us. is what the obama administration doing anything different from what the bush administration did. in. >> greta, i'm not in a position to comment on that. i don't know, i wasn't read into all of the various -- very secure, very secret, very important programs being run out of the national security agency and other intelligence agencies so i can't really tell you. i can tell you this, i do think that america is in a war against terrorists and to be able to identify patterns of phone calls between individuals

here and individuals abroad and then to identify the patterns of phone calls inside this country just not listening in on conversations but you identifying who is talking to whom allows the in tell dense agencies to identify connections between people abroad and people at home. as we saw in the boston marathon bombing incident home grown terrorists or terrorists sleeper cells inside the united states are a threat we have to deal with. we have to deal with them during the bush years and did so successfully perhapses in part because of programs like this. this kind of intelligence. i understand why people are nervous about this particularly with this administration but we need to divorce the obama white house from the national security agency and cia and other intelligence agencies that are the frontlines in many times in the war on terror. >> greta: that is, indeed, true that we separate those. but the law which is 50 usc 1861 talks about the fact about

not going after american citizens domestically. the nsa is supposed to be foreign intelligence. we find out it that wasn't so foreign and seems to be in the words of the new york times going after president obama that it is president obama's drag it is net and it is vast. >> remember, look tsarnaev was -- the boston bomber brothers one of them went to chechnya. he was under review for a period of time. what if he called sock in chechnya that was known to be a terrorist. we had a number of contacts between the 9/11 bombers and people abroad and then they contacted each other inside the united states and if we had a program like this in effect at the time that might have been helpful to us in stopping the 9/11 plot.

so i -- we got to -- the right of the government to collect phone numbers and records of phone calls made to other -- that a number -- that one number called another number that has been upheld by the supreme court i believe in a case called smith and there is a right for the government to do this and it is focused on what kind of connections do people have inside the united states with people outside the united states and once we identify she have the kind of contacts outside the united states who are they talking to inside the united states as well. >> greta: big difference. in the case in boston that was the russians warned us about his contacts in check nia. that is one person. we had a reason to investigate him. this this instance, 97 million people who are customers are verizon. i don't know how many of at&t. we are not talking about people who are threats or we have reason to be suspicious about. we are talking about everybody else. >> wait a minute. wait a minute. what we are looking for is connections between somebody

abroad and somebody here in the united states and then once identified inside the united states that somebody is talking to somebody who is in a bad place with a bad number that indicates a terrorist connection what kind of other contacts are they having inside the united states. and i think that is entirely legitimate and in the environment and the world in which we live necessary. >> greta: well, i think as this unfolds we will weight and see there is a big difference in my mind as a dragnet where we just sort of grab everything and when we have specific information about a person, a phone number, a connection, an emale address. >> and look, remember, you and i don't knothole is behind the program. i think it ought to reassure people that the intelligence committee which is republicans and democrats alike and some partisan and tough democrats who are not going to give the doubt to a republican president and some tough republicans who might not give the benefit of the doubt to a democratic president have been thus far today pretty universal in their praise for this program and

defense of this program. the indication is -- again i don't know but the indication is this pro gram has been in force for a number of years and has been routinely renewed and has again rated information that has given the in tell against committee democrats and republicans alike a confidence that it is a valuable tool in the war against terror. >> greta: the president ran in 2008 on transparency and i don't think that the american people should be completely kept out in the dark. in faction one of reasons just to sort of back track a bit was the problem involved with the associated press. the associated press wanted to report that there was danger to commercial airliners after a period of danger had passed and had been working with the government and the government didn't want that to be distributed to the american people. there are instances when we have denied transparency and we should have it. >> and look i'm not going to defend the obama administration. i will defend the intelligence community and i do think that we got to as we examine this, look, i'm soive rod up about --

i'm so revved up about the irs and james rosen incident and benghazi i can't see straight. but we got to divorce the actions of the white house and the actions of the political figures inside the administration from the great work that is being done by the intelligence and law enforcement communities to keep this country safe and we have foiled plots since 9/11 using tools like this. i don't have any specific operational awareness of this program but i would be he cautious about lumping what the administration has done on the other instances, the irs, the ap, james rosen, and benghazi with this which is not being directed out of the white house. this is not the kind of stuff that is flown across the desk of valerie jarrett. this is not the kind of program that i suspect david about plouffe was read into. this is the intelligence community and those people i have trust in. >> greta: one last thing is that general clapper was asked by senator widen in march where

the nsa collects data on hundreds of millions of americans and he said no, sir. he said not wittingly. there are cases where they could inadvertently perhaps and just when we start hearing things that look not quite totally true it becomes it is not unreasonable to become suspicious. you said you were revved up about eric holder the attorney general. move ton that. tell me your thoughts because today the attorney general was testifying before the senate defending himself against criticism over the reporter is surveillance. listen to this. >> i have not done a perfect job. i think i have done a good job but i'm always trying to do better. some of the criticism labeled or thrown at me and at the department has caused us to rethink for instance the way in which he we are going to deal with the media inquiries and we will make changes. >> greta: house p republicans are not satisfied and want the attorney general back in front of the committee. karl, your thoughts? >> i'm to thglimpse not

satisfied either. what was saying was we lied to three federal judges. went before three federal judges and said james rose season a member of a criminal conspiracy and a fright risk. two turned him down and the third judge granded it. he said we never intended to prosecute him. we never intended to depict him as a member of the. you are a lawyer and i'm plot but i think as an officer of the court he has a responsibility to tell the court the truth and in this enzians what he was saying today is don't worry about it, we were afterlying to the judge. the is second thing is there are guidelines in place. these guidelines have been in place for a number of years. they require three things. if you are going to do this you have to discuss -- you have to use all available alternative means before going after the phone records of a journalist. they did not do that. you have to discuss this in advance with the news organizations. and attempt to get the

information. and then third, you are required to have another round of discussions with them in order to let them know that you are going to do it. if you can't find a way to resolve it you have to notify them you are moving forward with it. they did none of that. he violated h his own department guidelines. he is in charge with the chief law enforcement officer of upholding the rule of law and n department guidelines. i think he lied to congress. or he was lying to the judge or lying to both of them. that is on top of everything else he has done. the black panther case. the tom perez, st. paul housing disparity case. this man has little or incredibility left as attorney general. it is his own fault. i'm not satisfied and i hope the american people weren't either. >> greta: i was thinking if i represented him how i would advise him at this point. how can you possibly reconcile the testimony with the warrant. calling james a coconspirator.

>> you can't. >> if i had been his lawyer at the time i would have told him when came back to the justice department call them up appropriations tell them you forget. but he can't. it is not even a question of lying. whether it leech reaches the level of material. this is the highest law enforcement officer in the country. at best he was cagey. he was dodging. and that is just not what we expect from the highest law enforcement. there are thous of doj lawyers who every day go into court and you don't want this message it is okay to be cagey and dodgy. >> it is income pa tense. we saw that in fast and furious where he said i didn't know he anything about it and we know that h memo after memo after memo came across the desk of the chief of staff and he was unaware of it. we have incompetence in this as

well. >> greta: i thought in fast and furious it was negligent. this is the attorney general. this is not negligence. he was asked a question. he answered that question. this isn't like a mistake. >> right. >> no, no, no, i agree with you entirely there. did he not tell the truth to them. but think about this. he say says this on the 13th. on the 15th it comes out that he did approve the subpoena and that he sade those things. he should have gone back to congress the following monday and said i misspoke. i'm sorry. i misspoke. of course, i did that and i can't believe i misspoke, you know and cleaned up the record. and instead it took another week before he certainly said well, you know i started having remorse because i read in the washington post. >> greta: no, he got caught. >> people are upset with me. that is incompetent. he lied and then he was incompetent in cleaning it up.

>> greta: there would have been no cleanup but for the fact. i can tell you, look, my memory can be poor on a lot of things. it is a hard sell for me that he didn't rather the james rosen because it is peculiar that you are signing off on an investigation like that with an affidavit to a federal judge calling a journalist a coconspirator. >> i'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. if you give him the benefit of the doubt that then he is incompetent and doesn't deserve to be there. he told a deliberate the lie to the united states congress and now in his arrogance sort of basically saying i feel a little bit remorseful and we will clean up the standards. he ignored his own standards that are in force and have been in force for decades. >> greta: you are talking about the standards of when you subpoena journalists records. i'm talking about what he said before congress. that is not standards. did you tell the truth or not

tell the truth. were you cagey or dodgy, what did you remember. that has nothing to do with standards. that is the code of professional responsibility for lawyers. >> yeah. >> greta: i'm take the last word on that even with the fact that i'm losing my voice a little bit. >> take care of that throat. you need a little lemon tea with honey in it. >> i sound like i work for a college fm station. anyway. now, to tonight's hot button issue. on gretawire.com. the secret sew election of phone and internet data. the new york times harshly calls it the obama dragnet. is that fair? does president obama own this one. yes, or no. go to gretawire.com and vote in our poll. congressman gowdy fighting back tears. find out why. tonight, another government secret uncovered inside a warehouse near washington. coming up. come here, boy.

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in the very he same month, the very same year that the irs was conferencing in anaheim we were furloughing law enforcement officers. we were furloughing teachers.

prosecutors in my own office were furloughed. secretaries in my own office were furloughed. one night one of my secretaries came in after hours and asked if she could borrow the money to buy her child a birthday present. and she he kept apologizing for having to do it. and she kept saying i will pay you back. i will pay you back. and at exactly the same time that young government employee single mom was borrowing money for a child's birthday present other government employees were staying in $3,500 a night rooms. other government employees were spending more money on promotional materials than that young woman makes in a year.

dress after this heated hearing the head of the irs division that staged the $4 million conference trying to make a quick get away but griff jenkins trying t trying to grir more answers. >> at any point when you were appearing in the videos did you or any one else think that was not an appropriate use of taxpayer dollars, sir? don't you feel like you should at least owe an apology to the american people? >> do you you have any plans to step down over this? >> mr. fink, with you agree $4 million for a conference is the inappropriate use of american taxpayer dollars? mr. fink, will you be resigning any time soon? so, that we can stop running here, will you teak one moment to apologize to our audience of taxpayers for your actions?

thank you very much, sir. >> greta: congressman tray gowdy joins us. i have talked to so many people in washington who say to me it was only $4 million. nothing compared in the grand scheme of things and i thought to myself people in my hometown must be so enraged when they lost jobs, federal employees who work hard like federal prosecutors across the county. finally you were able to i think really drive the point home that this is a big deal. people got furloughed while they are out partying. that is stealing. >> yeah, greta, when i listen to elijah's hopin elijah's opes and he was talking about bumping into people in his neighborhood. 2010 you are living like a king going to a conference, gowdy what were you doing? i was telling folks that you

have to work two weeks with no pay and you are not going to have in any training and juste contrast between one set of government employees doing something as dreadful as plowing other people's taxpayer money juxtaposed with the fact that there are other government employees who work really long hours and do really great work and they he get furloughed. teachers. firefighters. police officers. all of that happened in south carolina in the exact same year they are spending money on videos and trinkets. >> we cut down on one hot meal for marines as we are doing the drawback in afghanistan. some work around the clock and now we are cutting back one more meal and i assume it is partly in cost. i don't know why you are anybody else are calling this a conference. these are nothing but parties. there was stupid things that they put on with the trenkets

and everything. this isn't a conference. to learn something or study something, do it at home. or on skype or we get folding chairs and a gymnasium. >> greta, you are exactly right. my training when i was at the u.s. attorney's office as i would walk in the office next door to me and ask what i should do and it was free and we didn't have to travel. and there were no party favors. this conference you didn't even get credit for attending it in anaheim. there was no sign in or no record of whether or not you went to any of sessions or not. it is a junket. when you are asking people to sacrifice and remember 2010 there are people losing their louses. people losing their jobs. and yet the government employees are spending money like i can't use the analogy that comes to mind because the fcc would be upset with me. with you you they are are

blowing money and the money doesn't belong to them and when asking other folks through sequestration to tighten their belt, whether it is the gsa or whether it is the va any government agent icy i'm so tired of having the hearings are necessary but they are not sufficient. we have to do more than just have a hearing and then fly home and forget about it. >> greta: what i think, i hear someone say we need to change the guidelines and i think to my solve guidelines, really? you didn't know this was okay? you didn't know this was terrible to take this money from the american people. they will say somebody else authorized. why do we he have to change guidelines? what is wrong with the federal government that doesn't get that this is just wrong from the get-go? why do you need a guideline to tell you? >> that was my point to the inspector general. the answer to everything in d.c. is more training. a webinar. if we only did a better job of telling you this was wrong.

you shouldn't have employees that need to be told this was wrong. there is no training that will fix bad character and the irs has been around greta for well over 100 years if they don't know by now that they are not popular, that they are very envasive and we are go to give them more power with respect to health they need to be good stewards of the trust. are if they haven't figurele that out by now which they have not then we need another way of collecting revenue in the country. >> greta: you towned about the anaheim conference that cost $4 million while the people were getting laid off in the u.s. attorney's office in south carolina. there were 2,629 irs managers that the. i go out and a limb but i say that every single person at the irs knew you that was going on all the way to the top. everyone looked the other way. no one had the guts to step up and say consider where was the commissioner? why didn't he have the guts to say we will not send 2,609 people to a party on the taxpayer dime. they all look the other way.

>> it is systemic and cultural. it is a character issue. it cannot be fixe fixed fixed a recommendation from the inspector general or more training. you can't -- if you don't know that this is wrong while you are doing it, while you are approving it, while you are flying to anaheim if you do not know that this is wrong then you don't need to work for the people and this is what government work used to be. public service. now, when you use that phrase people laugh. because they see things like this conference in anaheim. we got a lot of challenges as a republic but if we don't restore people's trust in government and the people who work in it we are finished. and we need to do more than just have a hearing. the hearing is great. my colleagues did a really good job. but your viewers want to see action. what are you going to do now? >> greta: congressman, thank you, sir. >> i hope you feel better. >> greta: i will. thank you. up next, senator john mccain. what does he have to say about the nsa secretly snag the phone

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these are the champions who helped free a continent. these are the heroes who helped end a war. >> greta: back in two minutes go to gretawire.com. tiny changes in the brain. little things anyone can do. it steals your memories. your independence. ensures support, a breakthrough. and sooner than you'd like. sooner than you'd think. you die from alzheimer's disease. we cure alzheimer's disease. every little click, call or donation adds up to something big.

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and have your packages picked up for free. i can even drop off free boxes. i wear a lot of hats. well, technically i wear one. the u.s. postal service®, no business too small. >> greta: what does senator mccain think of ambassador susan rice named as national security advisor? >> greta: what about appointment of ambassador rice? >> the president gets to choose his national security advisor. i -- i think that what she told the american people on every sunday morning show in america, including fox was false. she should have known better and sthe not only depicted the act itself as a spontaneous demonstration caused by a hateful video but went on to say al qaeda is d decimated

and the party line is that everything was fine in the world because we got bin laden soit wasn't just her -- depiction of what happened at the consulate in benghazi it was the entire schtick she gave. but the president has the right to appoint people he wants. elections have consequences and i don't agree with her, i'm strong disagreement. i won't have picked her to say the least. but now, she's been selected, we have a syria problem, al qaeda problem. we have extremists all over the middle east. we have iran moving towards nuclear weapons a china continues to hack. we have a -- a more difficult and complex set of challenges then we have... so i want to work with her because she's there.

>> greta: do you have confidence she's going to ask a question of the intelligence community? how do you know? why do you say that? that is the question does she have the back bone to ask the follow up question? can she challenge what people are telling sner. >> i don't know the answer to that. and... from her performance at the united states, it seemed to me she did everything she was told by the president and national security advisor different job? >> this president really relies on very few people for example, we know every member of his national security team over a year ago recommended sending arms to the rebels. everyone. all recommended that.

overruled what does that show us? by the way that is the first time in history of know of such a thing. what does that show us? the president of the united states doesn't listen to his national security team, he must be listening to someone else. >>. >> greta: senator biden in asked dni clapper abroad broad scale search of american records. he said no. that was in march. the records seized happened in april. do you have a reason to believe this is going on before april? this seize sur? >> i don't know. it surprised me. how about the. >> he should have known. how about the former director of the irs that said yeah. he went to white house 153 times. they said this is one of the great moments.

why did you go? he said easter egg roll. 153 times for the easter egg roll? that is -- i'm not making that up. you know? but i think it's more and more information cominging out on that issue that is going higher and higher. this isn't the first time we've seen something like that happen. >> thank you. >> thank you, greta. >> straight head maybe the biggest government secret to surface yet. next. ♪ ♪ chances are, you're not made of money, so don't overpay for boat insurance. geico, see how much you could save.

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>> greta: tonight another government secret not about phone or computer records about a man cave. chief political correspondent is up next, man cave? is that what i understand? >> this is a weird story. >> greta: indeed, it is.

what happens that the environmental protection agency needs a warehouse to store stuff. refrigerators, carpet all of that stuff. they get this building in maryland, 70,000 square feet. and the stuff is just piled in there. they pay a company, contractors $750,000 a year to take care of it. and what we find out now they did was they create aid series of man caves, in other words they created rooms where they've got a nice flat screen tv, a chair, a fridge and a microwave. it's a great place to hang out. they built a gym. there are security cameras to i guess give you an idea of what workers are doing but they hid all of the things from the security cameras. apparently the epa just heard about it this year and when the inspector general found

out what is going on told the top people at the epa i'm sure they're aware over controversies over wasted government. >>. >> greta: but the inspector general found it. it's never, where was the epa? >> this is millions on this building since 2007 they'd never been out there. until the inspector general. >> 750,000s aids year to maintain this build something. >> $750,000 for this building. >> greta: and you hear about people being laid off? >> yes. companies on that committee today both gave eloquent statements in which they talked about this kind of money. they're talking about the money wasted at the irs conference in anaheim they're saying people on my street make $50,000 a year. that is what they make a year. this is their money you're throwing away. >> greta: look at the picture,

it's unbelievable this, man cave. >> the report is kill philed with such thing ofs. i would never hang around just watching tv. >> greta: ire on, thank you. >> greta: coming up can you hear me now? you have to hear what happens when the scandal hits the comedy circuit. next of blood flow. cialis tadalafil for daily use helps you be ready anytime the moment's right. you can be more confident in your ability to be ready. and the same cialis is the only daily ed tablet approved to treat ed and symptoms of bph, like needing to go frequently or urgently. tell your doctor about all your medical conditions and medications, and ask if your heart is healthy enough for sexual activity. do not take cialis if you take nitrates for chest pain, as this may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. do not drink alcohol in excess with cialis. side effects may include headache, upset stomach, delayed backache or muscle ache. to avoid long-term injury, seek immediate medical help for an erection lasting more than four hours. if you have any sudden decrease or loss in hearing or vision,

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>> greta: you knew it was coming. look at this parody of the classic very on ad. >> can you hear me now? >> yes, we can. >> good. >> can you hear me now? >> yes, we can. >> can you hear me now? >> yes, we can. >> can you hear me now? >> yes, we can. >> good. >> until no matter where you can... your call goes through. >> can you hear me now? >> yes, we can. >> good. >> verizon wireless, never stop working for you. >> greta: that is your last call. join us tomorrow for a second

on the record. newt gingrich will be here, tomorrow night 10:00 p.m. eastern. go to gretawire right now and tell me what you think about washington. tell us what you think. bill is on a tear. >> bill: o'reilly factor is on. >> this is type of program that put orwell to shame. >> bill: another shocking investigation. every verizon telephone customer is under surveillance. >> you personally signed the documents with the dollars on it before the conference. >> i initialed the routing slip. >> what does that mean to you? do you have any responsibility for that? >> bill: talk about an out of control situation, irs spending $50 million on conferences and parties even while they were unfairly scrutinizing