$100,000 a year on the biggest, one of the biggest companies in the world. let's be his partner. >> neil: and never invest in anything charles says. that will do it here. cost of freedom continues now. ♪ fighting back after being singled out by the i.r.s. >> what is intolerable is one set of rule for one side of the political fight and another set of rules for the other. >> since may of 2011, i have been dormant not only out of the inability to raise money but abject fear government had a target on my back. >> i want to protect and preserve the america i grew up in. the america that people cross oceans and risk their lives to become a part of. i'm terrified it's slipping away. leader of conservative groups testifying how the i.r.s. went after them. the agency is supposed to follow the money. and the rule of law. but did the victims just prove the tax man was playing politics?

hi, everybody. good to be with you. i'm liz macdonald in for david asman. welcome to "forbes on fox." go in focus with -- steve, what do you think? >> obviously, it's politics. they went after the organizations to make sure they didn't participate in the 2012 elections. they went far beyond just doing routine audit. they did not target liberal groups. this is going to end up in washington, elizabeth and it will have a special prosecutor and be as big as watergate. it was bad stuff. not a handful of enemies but anyone put their head above the parapit. >> so there is politics in play? >> there may be but i take exception saying it will end up in washington i'm old fashioned about this. i actually think there needs to be evidence before you can evict somebody. so far there is no evidence that even puts at a lower level of washington. let alone the people that you might want to see get tagged with this. >> sabrina, today on --

yesterday, friday. there is a report out that actually there is evidence that i.r.s. was dictating what was going on in cincinnati. reuters is reporting that. the two cincinnati workers saying that yes, the i.r.s. was telling them in d.c. what to do. what do you think? >> i think that we will see more evidence coming out. this is not about the rule of law. this is about the obama administration trying to control the flow of information. i am sensing a pattern here between the i.r.s. scandal, the media tracking scandal, the n.s.a. now, you know, spying on the average americans. this is, this is an administration that wants to control the flow of information. it's suddenly coming to head here with the i.r.s. scandal. i couldn't agree with steve more about this. >> you know, morgan, here is the deal. conservative groups, of course they have to be questions like everybody else. but they were in question like everybody else. they were basically asked about their book they were reading. meetings, donors. ten democrats had pressure the

i.r.s. to do more. senators levin said basically why is the i.r.s. being so passive? al franken and schumer threatened the i.r.s. with legislation if they didn't act. go ahead. >> yeah, this is a political issue. how can it not be a political issue. for no other reason than you talk about the tax except status for the organizations that identify themselves politically. whether this is a one-sided witch hunt, how far back to washington this goes. a lot of that remains to be seen. ill's rather unformnate. the bigger issue for me is 501c is an area of murky super secretive area for campaign funding which is what they are not supposed to be. the primary purpose is not supposed to be. all of that is clouded over. party democratic liberal conservative. all of that is crowded over by the scandal. >> but you didn't see -- you didn't see words like progressive or moveon.org, the key words. you didn't see the key words

the i.r.s. was using to target groups. no liberal witnesses were presented. progressive group presented the house ways and means hea hearing. >> this is political. >> the government unaccountable and not liked by outside groups are going to investigate those groups. so i think the i.r.s. action are scandalous but the true scandal here to me is that the i.r.s. exists to begin with. >> that is interesting what you said. i want to turn back to the witnesses. who testified. let's take it again. >> maybe they were coming down hard on you because so many of you were plying for status at the same time. that is their argument. what do you say in response?

>> there were progressive groups. they weren't looked at, as closely as we were. >> the complainers could have savedded themselves grief if they took "tea party "out of the occupation and put innocuous name and called themselves coalition for healthcare outreach or called themselves americans for big government. they could have done whatever they want to do. the big scand is c-3 to get tax deduction for giving them money. the scandal is overtly partisan groups set up semi-awsemi-autonomous to get tx deductible donations -- >> but the problem is -- here is the thing. sierra club does this. >> but it's both sides of the political aisle. we have have to go to 2010. the context, the president was basically claiming that

foreign operatives were pouring in the non-profit sector and getting themselves involved in the u.s. election system. what do you make of that? >> i think the "wall street journal" pointed out this wasn'ter is ra tissue "se"rapticious. this was political and one-sided. ink blot it goes wider and wider and wider like waterga watergate. >> what do you make of carl levin saying to the i.r.s., you're being passive. senator franken and others say we'll pass legislation if you don't respond the way you want. >> what i make is if that what they did -- >> there is evidence. they have letters.

take it up with them. but this is not clear it went to the top. there isn't evidence tocanide it that. stop with the propaganda -- >> but wait. hold on. not propaganda. >> it is. >> the president removed the leader of the i.r.s. commission head. we have a d.o.j. criminal probe. if it's not an issue why doing that. >> how can you say he is involved? >> it's a high level you have to have the d.o.j. to act. go ahead, sabrina. >> if it weren't for the tea party, the republicans wouldn't have had the landslide victory they did in the 2010 mid-term. there are operatives in the white house looking to 2014 to think we need to muzzle conservatives now. if it's the case that the citizens united increased the volume of c-3s, i am ahead of one. i hope the conversation doesn't tar all c-3s. but if we have increase in c-3

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p from america's news headquarters, hi, everybody. i'm jamie colby. another insideer attack to report that left three american service members dead if the afghanistan. the international military coalition is saying a man in an afghan army uniform turned his weapon on the soldiers that were training him. this happened in the eastern part of the country earlier today. and italian service member also killed following a grenade attack in western

afghanistan. back here at home, cleveland man accused of holding three women captive for about a decade has now been indicted on more than 300 charges. ariel castro charged with several count of rape and kidnapping and two counts of aggravated murder for allegedly forcing one of his victims to miscarry. the three women rescued last month after one of them escaped. his attorneys say he will plead not guilty. i'm jamie colby. see you back here again at 1:00 p.m. eastern. back to "forbes" on business. ♪ >> the healthcare law was all about lowering cost and getting the uninsured insured. but a new survey says whopping two-third of those who don't have a health plan yet may not buy one at all. steve, you say this is going to cost us all. explain. >> well, if they don't get everyone in to this thing obviously they will have more costs. what they designed in a way younger people with the subsidiaries pay more than they should in a normal free market. so younger people at least

initially will say they catch me i'll pay the small fine, not pay $5,000 to $7,000. if you go on the exchanges to do the apples to apples comparison, california and oregon, kaiser permante plan you find out you will pay more in exchange than on the free market. the government puts in stuff most people don't think. >> rick, what do you think? >> i don't know where to begin. it's not true what steve said. the california exchange range come in better than expected and people under 25 with mean income is $25,000 qualifying a large percentage of them for subsidies will pay less than they have to pay now. >> overall, what are they 30% more? >> no. here is the other part of this, though. this poll that came out that you refer to saying 65% don't know if they are going to sign up, you know what? i wish i had a nickel for every call i get, i'm turning 65 in a week. how does medicare work? people haven't focused on this yet because exchange don't

open until october. talk about this when that comes and people think about it. >> it takes a long time to get covered. >> costs are going up because this is not insurance. insurance is historically cheap you buy something for the unthinkable. politicians with obamacare want to us have insurance, to pay for every malady. they want it to be that we can show up and get insurance when we are already sick. this is not insurance so it's expensive. >> didn't kathleen sebelius say premiums are going up? so did the cbo. what do you make of it? >> it's safe to say that the premiums will go up for some people. how much and what it will look like and to people it will go up, i think a lot remains to be seen. going back to rick's point and

the exchanges don't open up for enrollment in october, a lot -- i think there is a lot more miles per hours to focus on. they are focusing on before they start to look at this. we have the jobs numbers out. we still have 20% of young adults without jobs. they are looking to get the jobs before they start to think about the enrolling on the exchanges. i think it's still premature. we have have the debt ceiling debate coming up before this takes place. >> right. premature to figure out -- >> i hear what you are saying. >> here is the thing. the poll results show less than half of the people responding. less that half think theyet bet. and about half think it will get more difficult to get tests. what do you make of the results there? >> i think that costs are going to come in less than expected. anybody with any sense expect the cost to triple. they are going to double. [ laughter ] >> we have a system that you take something that used to cost money and now it will be "free. "it has to go up.

>> sabrina go ahead. >> the big problem is the government mandate people buy something they don't need. the my mum essential coverage is so high that we are telling people they have to buy a five bedroom house when they need a one-bedroom apartment. >> what do you mean that they may not need? >> if you are a young man who just graduated college you don't need all the bells and whistles. you don't need all sort of coverage. they don't need to cover me to have a baby. he probably has college loans and other debt he may need to pay off but instead he is subsidizing me. >> how could you possibly know if you are going to get a cancer diagnosis next week? number one. >> that is katz catti catastropc coverage. >> that is the point. >> everybody thinks what john just said. it is absolutely untrue you can get sick then get insurance. there is an open enrollment period. it will start in october. it will finish on marm 31 next year -- march 31 next year. if you don't buy insurance you can't buy it until the next

enrollment period. >> it stinks. >> otherwise everybody would wait. >> john has it right, this is not insurance at all. it's prepaying next year's expense. for younger person that is true. you want kitkati catastrophic coverage. you should choose what you want. >> we have the leave it there. next up, privacy concerns erupting over reports that the government is snooping. just about everything. phone calls, e-mail, credit cards, you name it. should you fear it? the "cashin' in" crew on it at the bottom of the hour. up next, after three months of protests the t.s.a. keeps fixing the plan to allow small knives back on plans. that's not good enough for some at "forbes" who say we need to deep six the t.s.a. are they right or wrong? that's up next.

massive protest and t.s.a. canceling plans to let knives back on planes. someone says a safety faye yasco is why. we need to prioritize security.

♪ ♪ t.s.a. not okay. the transportation security administration backtracking on its plan to let small knives, baseball bats and other banned items back on airplanes. an idea that many airline employees and travelers said was very dangerous. sabrina, you say this is why airport security should be privatized. explain. >> yeah, this is one more example. i don't think anyone on the panel here today thinks that, you know, asking mom to take the little booties off the baby are making me carrying my

manicure scissors keeping us safer. it's probably make us less safe to make it systemized and sort of regularized that terrorists or people wanting to hurt the system knows exactly what we're doing. we should try out new screening technique. >> are airports privatizedded and it is working nicely? >> yeah. the problem is the logic fails here. if you privatize every airport you decide if you want knives on a plane. you can't say you can take them on in detroit but not in los angeles. i don't know let me why they won't let me take a golf club. i'm more dangerous if i was on an airplane. >> but it's scary for the flight attendants and passengers to think a lunatic could have a knife or any weapon on board. yes, the cockpit doors are

strengthped but what about the rest of the people on the plane? >> especially when you have a delay an tempers are rising up. you don't want anything in people's hands. or a drink. >> or golf club. >> right. >> the bottom line, privatized airports are mentally more efficient than those that aren't. san francisco versus l.a. san francisco is 50 to 70% more productive though they pay the same wages and go for the same training. operate under the same agency. this is privatize the t.s.a. set standards as the f.a.a. does but let companies figure out how to do it more efficiently and come up with innovation. >> this peoples like fly the unfriendly skies. >> the america doesn't protect passengers it goes out of business. if the t.s.a. doesn't protect it, it gets more taxpayer money to expand bureaucracy. the profit motive is path to

innovation. >> let the airlines compete. >> you tepe t.s.a. there to oversee and set regulations and you bring private sector workers in to operate at the airport. we are seeing more and more airports apply to have it at their location. john micah, the granddaddy of t.s.a. is proposing this as well. >> i agree. ultimately we want the keep americans safe. so unless we have a marketplace to try different things out we are setting ourselves up for a disaster. >> john, tammy, do you think we are setting ourselves up for a disaster? >> always. because you are asking the least qualified people to protect us. that usually ends in a disaster scenario. bring it back to market.

>> least qualifieded. what do you think? >> it would be the same people. they would work for private firm. >> be careful with the comparison. they run far fewer flights than we do in the united states. they can do things differently. >> a lot of people in washington, d.c. say that el a does it great. >> they do. >> we should pattern our airlines. >> but we have it in our country. like san francisco and los angeles. so again, set the standards on training and things like that. let other companies figure out how to do it efficiently. >> the time word. >> the t.s.a. carts in a lot of employees which is a reason it's much zo much more expensive. >> interesting. coming up, looking for a great gift for the high school grad? we have the stuff ready to help them. you are going to profit. that's next.

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welcome back. with the stock for high school graduates. that is what we've got for you. morgan? >> valero is an oil company. cheaper than the competitors and pays 2% dividend. this is a value stock. you can buy it and sock it away. you don't have to worry about it. >> phil, do you like it? >> skilled refiner. but the successes depend not on the skills but on a ran tom number called the crack spread. that sounds disreputable. it's the difference between price of crude and gasoline. >> you are a genius. bill, go ahead. >> my thinking is why don't you put your kids in to totala, french oil company. the reason it's cheap that the college they are going to divesting the oil country. >> morgan, you like it? >> two reason i'm nervous about it. the first, very exposed to europe, which we know is shaky with the economy there.

and second reason is the ceo is embroiled in a scandal. >> all right. that is it for "forbes on fox." thank you for watching. keep it here, number one business block continues with eric bolling and "cashin' in." ♪ >> they finally got it. i'm so proud. they are ready for anaheim. [ applause ] >> yep, living it up amid the crackdown. i.r.s. employeeses dancing the night away. and showing silly star trek videos at a la victim junct, all the while tax officials target conservative group. we know how much it cost all taxpayers. you won't be dancing with joy. the government is dialing up more controversy. this time unclal sam getting info from major internet companies. microsoft, yahoo, goggle, facebook. apple. oh, and they are seizing your phone records, too. is your personal information at risk?