i'm eric bolling with kimberly guilfoyle, greg gutfeld, dana perino. this is "the five." a rogue american intel analyst at the center of what may be the most expansive intel leak in the united states is on the lam in hong kong. questions abound. we are going to try to breakdown who ed snowden is, what he gave away, what should happen to him. fascinating stuff. who is ed snowden. >> my name is ed snowden, i am 29 years old. i book for booze allen hamilton

as infrastructure analyst for nsa in hawaii. any analyst any time can target anyone, any selector. where they will be picked up, the authorities they're empowered with, not all analysts can target everything. i sitting at my desk have the authorities to wire tap anyone from you or your accountant to a federal judge to even the president if i had a personal e-mail. >> what made him decide to leak state secrets? here is his explanation. listen carefully. >> even if you're not doing anything wrong, you're being watched and recorded and the storage capability of these systems increases every year consistently by orders of magnitude to where it is getting to the point you don't have to have done anything wrong, you simply have to eventually fall under suspicion for somebody, even by a wrong call. then they can use the system to go back in time and scrutinize

every decision you've ever made, every friend you discussed somethi with, and attack you on that basis to sort of derive suspicion from an innocent life and paint anyone in the context of a wrong doer. >> this is serious stuff. listen to director of national intelligence, james clapper, say how dangerous he thinks the leaks are. >> i think we're very, very concerned about it. for me it is literally not figuratively, literally gut wrenching to see this happen, because of the huge array of damage it does to our intelligence capabilities. >> we don't know the scope of all of this yet. many questions still remain and need to be answered. let's go around the table with what we know so far, greg, traitor, national hero? >> he underlines the libertarian hero part of it by going to china.

it is like going to siberia for the balmy summers or england for the cuisine. i am a terror con degree ak. whether 3 people or 3,000 dying, i see terror as the most important thing. essentially it is the world against the united states. no one gives a damn about us and what we did. it is up to us to create a security that protects us. as a libertarian, i have an end of the world clause. we are in a new world, but fighting people who want to blow the world up because they want to go up there with 72 virgins, this is not russia, these are psychopaths that want to kill everybody. in my mind that changes the game. even if there's some kind of violation in the data, which will happen because humans make mistakes, i don't think you throw the baby out with the bath water, i hate that phrase, but

humans validate something to prevent a nuclear holocaust. >> if i hear you, you lean towards hero? >> no. >> no, no, i'm not. >> i said this, i will repeat myself. i am a libertarian, but i have an end of the world clause. if he made it so, that is less safe for america to continue into its future because no one gives a damn about the united states but the united states. >> dana? >> well, i think it is interesting, he calls himself courageous, a lot of people say he is a hero, he was a bureaucrat, imagine if there was someone at the irs that could help get to the bottom of the other scandal. this is a 29-year-old guy.

they're going to use these types of machines, and there's more computer power in this than in the rocket that went to the moon, space ship that went to the moon. i can see you want to move on. that's okay. i thought it was the b block. i am not going to say traitor but i want to know where my civil liberties could be violated as somebody that wants to be protected from terrorism. i think our government was doing the right thing, he violated that, wasted a lot of taxpayer money and helped terrorists in attempt to get fame for himself. >> mr. beckel? >> i take option two, to anybody's surprise. i think this guy will clearly be prosecuted, he will get extradited, spending a lot of time in jail. i think he did us all a favor going to the press. the fact is of all of the millions and millions of records that have been monitored, the

very few of them have anything to do with terrorism. the idea that in this country you can actually delve into your e-mails and your phone calls, not wire tap necessarily, but delve into them, how many calls you made, i think is strikingly close to authoritarian rule that has no place in this country and no place simply under our constitution. >> well stated, bob. i liked it. >> where do you fall on this one? >> to me it seems if the ends justify the means then the rule of law is meaningless, i see people taking that position here that this guy did everyone a favor by letting them know, but i see it differently. he ran from the consequences. he will be prosecuted and treated as a criminal. i am not so certain that he did this for purely al truistic

means. i don't see him as a hero in my view point. >> i think to your point, the fact that he ran, if he hadn't run, that kind of undercuts the whistleblower accusation. you would want to stand on principle, you would want to go to jail, don't want to be serviced in a swanky hotel in china. >> i might actually. >> don't forget, there's a fourth amendment says unlawful, unreasonable search and seizure, this would certainly in my opinion fall under excessive search and seizure. >> but is anybody saying it is unlawful? no. saying it is unconstitutional, maybe on the fourth amendment, but if you look at the case kimberly smith versus maryland in 1979, that was a precedent setting case. what they're doing, the government has said they had to come clean on it. they're not listening on your phone calls, they're listening to all of this data the human mind can't do.

i would rather have this program where they look for some anomaly. human beings aren't able to do this, we have to use the machines. >> let's take a listen to what type of access mr. snowden had. he was nothing more than a contractor for the u.s. government. listen. >> i had access to, you know, the full rosters of everyone working at nsa, the entire intelligence community and undercover assets all around the world, the locations of every station we have, what their missions are. if i just wanted to harm the u.s., then you could shut down the surveillance system in an afternoon. but that's not my intention. >> so go ahead. >> so i'm saying if i'm a terrorist, i say you and i are going to meet soon and i would take him and torture him, get all of the information and access to any files. say i will do something to your family unless you cooperate and give us everything. he is bragging, saying he can get key strokes of admirals, all

these things that put our national security and intelligence in jeopardy, making himself a walking human target. >> i think he also said he may have access or could find some key strokes of the president of the united states, very concerning. >> does it bother anybody that this is somebody who's a consultant to a consultant to the federal government? the guy never got out of high school. the guy was a prison or security guard. how is it that somebody like that is able to get access to this kind of information, living in hawaii. if he can do it, my guess is with expansion of all of the intelligence community infrastructure we put together since 9/11, there are a lot of people out there with access. >> a lot of compromising positions. >> so after benghazi, after the irs, i don't trust anyone in this administration. they lie the way rabbit breed. but should corruption, eric, invalidate something valuable, if you had this program prior to

9/11, knew it could prevent 9/11, would you say you don't want that program, eric? >> no. but the difference is with the patriot act, for example, you can pinpoint, you have a suspect or group of suspects and you surveil them. this is a further overreach. this is we will take every phone call, 3 billion. >> that's the first thing you do. but let me respond to that nonsense. when you grab all of this stuff, then you have to go get a subpoena, then you could look at it. what this is is what david simon says when he talks about covering a community beset by drug dealers, you have to get all of the numbers and look at patterns. >> so you're okay with just a giant surveillance program that as this guy points out could be expansive, multiples of what it is now. they could literally, if you listen to this, at some point, go back and listen to your conversations, backtrack to find out. >> that's my point. they have to go jump through the

legal hoops to do that, and it is actually pretty difficult. having said that, like i said before, there's always going to be abuses and the thing is do you get rid of something because there's a human falliblity. we know we cannot as human beings collect this days a. the only way to get every one of these companies to react together is through the government, and believe me, i hate the government and i know the government will commit -- >> you're talking about bordering on civil liberties of americans. >> am i? how? i am talking about numbers. >> wait a second. the intelligence community has proven itself to be fairly incompetent, they missed 9/11, not enough to put it together, missed fort hood, missed boston.

how much do we let them do as they impugn on our liberties. >> if this program could prevent something like 9/11, would you say i don't want it? if you had a person that was injured at the boston marathon and there was something to prevent it, would you have wanted that preventive program? the answer is yes. >> where do they stop. originally they've done all of this under the veil of the patriot act. the patriot act literally said it had to be a foreign agent, foreign power or agent of a important power that was communicating with someone here and there has to be suspect of espionage or terrorism. now it is a blanket take 3 billion phone calls and cover it. they have gone out of their way to give themselves unbelievable power. >> i think human beings have a problem with the scope of it. when you talk about the size of something, for example, every day you throw out your trash, it is picked up by a dump truck, goes to the dump.

nobody bothers with it. a crime committed on your street, the police go to the dump, look through it. that's how this works. all of a sudden when you expand to a larger number, everybody is freaking out. >> listen to one more sound bite. >> a new leader will be elected, they'll flip the switch, say that because of the crisis, because of the dangers that we face in the world, you know, some new and unpredicted threat, we need more authority, we need more power, and there will be nothing the people can do at that point to oppose it and it will be turned to tyranny. >> thoughts? >> i am much more comfortable with our government protecting me than i am with that guy trying to protect me. >> i don't disagree. i am for anything that helps us in terms of getting access to information, making this country safe, and i don't think he put us in better position by what he

did. >> this information on this program is available both for 9/11, both for fort hood shooting and for the boston marathon, and it didn't work. >> why didn't it work in fort hood shooting? because of a fear of being labeled a bigot. the paralysis that you have under ultimate tolerance, fearful of the pc police that kept people from accessing that guy -- >> that guy did nothing, instead of going directly to the press, which you have the right to do. if he was really so concerned about national security, why not run it up the chain? why don't you get a flight, instead of going to hong kong, go to washington, d.c., stand outside the white house and say i want to see the president of the united states and i am not leaving until i do. instead he fled to china. directly ahead, what's next for snowden. he was hiding in hong kong in a hotel, apparently checked out earlier today. where is he now, what are authorities doing to track him down. we will tell you what we know directly ahead.

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♪ okay, when you leak national security secrets, there are going to be consequences. former cia employee and contractor edward snowden knows that. here is what he thinks could happen to him. >> i could be rendered by the cia, we have a cia station just up the road in the consulate in hong kong. i'm sure they're going to be very busy for the next week. and that's a fear i live under

for the rest of my life, however long that happens to be. you can't come forward against the world's most powerful intelligence agencies and be completely free from risk because they're such powerful adversaries, no one can meaning fully oppose them. >> he reportedly checked out of his hotel in hong kong, remains in hiding. the white house is being tight lipped about the investigation. >> there's investigation under way into this matter, and for that reason i am not going to be able to discuss specifically this individual or this investigation, nor would i characterize the president's views on an individual or an on-going investigation. >> and yet president obama says that he wants to have a national debate on this very issue. bob, how can you have a national debate about something that you've already done? i mean, isn't that a little bit strange? >> strange formulation to me. look, this program has been in

effect for years and years and years, well before obama was here, we have been intercepting phone conversations from around the world. >> not conversations, data. >> data and conversations, the nsa has. leaving that aside, they have built in a number of different computer models and algorithms and things that separate out people that hit key words and all of that. here is the thing, i have a couple of questions. some may be mundane. his hotel bill was huge in china, in hong kong. i wonder who paid for that. i happened to be in that hotel in china, couldn't get let out. they let me out finally. what's next for this guy, i don't know. he could go to greenland. >> iceland is the idea. if he were to get asylum in iceland, we have extradition treat eaie

treaties, would they give him back? >> the u.s. has lots of reasons to get him back, some of which we highlighted in the last block. he is walking around like a treasure trove. people that want to do ill to the united states want to get him. it is best not to harbor this fugitive but cooperate with the united states who most certainly is going to seek full, aggressive prosecution against him for many reasons, because what he did is against the law, and it needs to serve as deterrent from future actions of individuals like this, 29 years old, having unbelievable access to sensitive, intelligence information. know there will be consequences. >> the white house has that petition thing, you can go on, get a certain number of signatures, the white house has to respond. jay carney, press secretary said we're not doing that on this one, but if he is painted as a hero by some, what's to prevent some other contractor that works

somewhere in the u.s. government from doing something similar, is there nothing we can do? >> that for me is like says look, he made us aware a contractor has access to such important national security. he literally was able to tell where exactly all the intel is around the world, had access to all the countries. how did he get to hong kong? nsa wants him, looking for him, i can't get through newark airport with a bottle of water, he can get to hong kong. here is another question. no one in the world would think the irs would target conservative groups. >> i agree. >> a big, massive government agency. why wouldn't this massive government agency do something that that one would, so the question is at some point do they selectively figure who they're going to spy on, do they selectively look and say look what we found from three years ago, look what we did. >> say you want to run for senate, look what we have from the past.

i want to ask one thing, greg, thought this was a thought provoking question for you. the united states government, we complain when other governments do this to their people, right? we say you should be more free and open. so is it time for the united states government to declassify a lot of this information and say yeah, we're looking at you. would that just be okay? >> that's why you can call him a hero and someone who broke the law. it is not mutually exclusive. i think in a way, bob and i were talking on the break, i do think he believes in what he is doing, but he still broke the law and created an amazing realignment. there is no, in a weird way, there's no political side going on here. you have a philosophical argument in which you have michael moore and glenn beck on one side and bill maher and bill crystal on the other. that to me is a big help when you shake the box of political ideology and create a

philosophical debate about something as important as privacy, it is a great thing. having said that, he broke the law but still could be a hero. >> but this information has been around a long, long time. we know the nsa has been looking into things, know where their sites are around the world for the most part, don't have access to their computer key boards, but this is not new information. maybe what obama meant by open debate, should we put this in front of everybody and say we do this. >> quickly, jay carney says president obama from last week said we have to transcribing a balance between 100% privacy and 100% safety. jay carney said the president feels he struck the proper balance. if that's the case, the debate is over. >> why do we have to have the debate. >> couple weeks ago his speech on drones, how it was the end of terror, this kind of undermines everything, if everything was observingy doeky, why did he say this? >> he didn't strike a balance at

all. >> he claims he struck the proper balance. >> he may claim that, but overwhelming people that documentation is followed by the nsa and others is far greater than those that are not. >> we have to go, but we're going to continue to talk about this through the coming weeks. next up, the irs case. according to one top democrat on the oversite committee, it is solved, thinks it is time to move on. is that a bit premature when questions remain unanswered? we'll tell you what we think next on "the five." ♪ and just give them the basics, you know. i got this. [thinking] is it that time? the son picks up the check? [thinking] i'm still working. he's retired. i hope he's saving. i hope he saved enough. who matters most to you says the most about you. at massmutual we're owned by our policyowners, and they matter most to us.

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so remember the irs scandal? that scandal was the scandal that dwarfed any other scandals until the new scandal. when you know it is no longer a

scandal, according to elijah cummings. >> based on everything i've seen, the case is solved. if it were me, i would wrap this case on and move on, to be frank with you. i think the irs, ig makes some recommendations, those recommendation are being adopted by the irs, we have a new commissioner, acting commissioner, doing a great job. i think we're in great shape. >> if that's great shape, then michael moore is mr. universe. ask yourself why would he go out to say problem solved, if anything that should make us look closer. instead of defending the average citizen, he defends the arm of government over innocent citizens. this is why they hit the irs issue so hard at the hearing last week, so he can say it is over and claim he has credibility. he is just protecting his boss. i knew his spasm of lucidity

couldn't last. if you worry that targeting terrorists is a threat to our freedoms, worry about the threat of citizens which is happening now, the irs is attacking politics by force weeded as a weapon against the innocent. i know it is hard to keep up with these messes, now that the obama administration has scandal diarrhea, and it is flooding the scenery with moore, kimberly. they hope we throw up our hands, play the lotto instead. for those that only pay attention every four years when they voted, maybe none of this means anything, but it is up to you to change their minds. >> wow. >> sorry about the metaphor, kimberly. they need kay opec at a time against the scandal. kimberly, when somebody in a political party plays down a scandal, doesn't it tell you that's a scandal most dangerous of all? >> that's something my antenna

says pay attention, pay attention. here is why. because he was hitting it hard, i don't think he did it with all due respect to your well thought out monologue, whoa, scandal diarrhea, where did you get that one. he hit it hard last week because he was outraged, then he got in trouble for being so truthful and lucid and honest as you say, now they said listen, you're putting us in a really bad position, hence hostage video-esque on the interview. >> bob? >> first of all, we know first indications of looking into it came from conservative republican in cincinnati, who sent it onto washington and asked for guidance. that's one piece of the puzzle that got resolved. the question is what happened after that. i think it does clarify a lot of things, that it was not some from washington on down order, but rather it was somebody in

cincinnati on up saying give us instructions, who then came up with a series of words. >> i thought there were two workers said it came from d.c. >> no, no, no, this is a new fellow out that says he sent this forward. >> but there were other employees in cincinnati that said otherwise. eric, what do you think? is it wrong to spend more time talking about the nsa than this? >> no, i think what happens is it is like a new scandal every week, the doj, with ap, the doj with rosen, the irs, it just goes on and on. now we have this. what's next week going to be. >> yeah. >> it is always the sum of the parts. one of the scandals taking the attention alone wouldn't bring down obama's legacy, make him look bad. put them together, who knows what will happen in the next three years, you may have a scandal plagued presidency that he has. and by the way, he brought it on

himself, it is all self inflicted. >> it is a scandal pizza, dana. >> i am going to take my cue from president obama because he was the one in an unprecedented move came to the east room of the white house at 6:00 p.m., got live television coverage, said he was outraged, wanted to get to the bottom of it. until he says i think we have gotten to the bottom of it, i will hold my fire, it is not over yet. that's the thing. they set the bar so high, even elijah cummings say there's nothing to see here, it doesn't clear them of anything, it actually just raises more questions. >> doesn't it play towards the nsa thing, government overreach, they're one class of people and everyone else, they can stretch the patriot act to the way they like it or stretch the irs to the way they like it. it feels like intrusive overreach of government. >> it is. >> how do you account for the fact that it is obama scandal? >> which one.

>> the irs. >> two agents said we got it from d.c. >> wow, really? >> we have a contradiction, we have somebody that's a manager there who's conservative republican who said he sent it forward. >> now it is conservatives want to have it investigated? i don't know. >> it was a conservative conspiracy? to target conservatives. >> and you were smart enough not to see it. >> blame the victim. did george zimmerman shoot trayvon martin in self defense or was it murder? one of the most highly anticipated trials of the year started today. kimberly has been watching it all, will tell us what happened when we come back. ♪

well, the george zimmerman trial opened in sanford, florida today. he is the man accused of murdering unarmed teenager trayvon martin last year. zimmerman says it was self defense, but prosecutors believe martin was racially profiled. jury selection started today. judge debra nelson hasn't decided whether to allow testimony of voice recognition experts who say they might be able to identify who's screaming on a 911 call during the confrontation with martin. >> 911. do you need police, fire or medical? >> maybe both, i'm not sure, there's just someone screaming outside. >> okay. and is it a male or female? >> it sounds like a male. >> and you don't know why? >> i don't know why, i think they're yelling, "help." >> they're having a fry hearing to determine whether the evidence is probative for the jury to hear versus prejudicial

impact, parts of it will be whether or not experts can shed light with some accuracy and credibility in terms of whether or not that would be trayvon martin or george zimmerman calling for help. if it is too confusing and think it is junk science, she won't allow it in, but runs the risk of it coming in on appeal. if you're the jury, you want to hear it. the jury hasn't been picked. six people deciding the fate. he is charged with second degree murder, which is 25 years minimum. >> why is it six jurors, not 12? >> that's the law in florida, and four alternates. >> there's no eyewitness, makes it harder, right? you make a judgment call based on the evidence they can scrape together. question for you which is why did this take 16 months to get started. it seems like an awful long time. is that normal? >> especially because this case has been, you know, so

incendiary because of the politics involved, initial delay in charges being filed, the police initially said it was self defense, stand your ground law, and didn't present it for prosecution. once the d.a.'s office got in charge and specifically in florida the state attorney, this started to escalate, and then you still have them saying we have 4,000 pages of discovery from the prosecutors this week, we need a delay in the trial. judge nelson is weighing all of the issues. she elected to proceed with the case. you see george zimmerman sitting there conferring with counsel. eric? >> so we're just starting, but this kind of struck me, the evidentiary rulings, some of them sound pretty interesting. defense can't bring in evidence regarding trayvon martin's school suspension, prior drug use. defense can't bring the jury to the scene of the crime. why wouldn't they be allowed to

go to the scene of the crime. >> they worry about jury field trips and also this jury is not going to be sequestered. >> they can't hear about trayvon martin's text messages before or and the day he was shot. i mean -- >> nsa has that covered. >> what's the story with zimmerman's attorney? is he bad? >> oh, no, he's excellent, mark o'mara is a fine defense attorney. it doesn't matter, it is what the judge rules. he can make the requests, but he is establishing quite a record for appeal. even if the state manages to get some kind of conviction against zimmerman, it is really going to be questionable and suspect because a lot of this can be appealable. any one of these is reason to throw it out, let alone brady violations for not turning over discovery. that's the holy grail for prosecutors, you have to give them the information. >> a case like this, unless you

could prove he was high at the time -- >> there are other ones, text messages on the day of, to the scene. >> greg? >> i think we needed a racially charged show trial. babbling about facts when none are at their disposal. >> that was uplifting. >> that's how i feel. >> okay. coming up, she's a wife, mom, dog owner, pant suit aficionado. any idea who we're talking about? the latest high profile addition to twitter, ahead on "the five." ♪

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back in the spotlight again with the news of the government's access to our data. some people talk about how strong the ties are between the company and the administration, just how far it may go to help the government get information. executive chairman eric schmidt is an obama supporter. here is his take on privacy. >> if you have something you don't want anyone to know, maybe

you shouldn't be doing it in the first place, but if you really need that kind of privacy, the reality is that search engines do retain this for some time, and it is important, for example, that we are all subject in the united states to the patriot act. it is possible that that information could be made available to the authorities. >> another example of the patriot act being a problem. the fact is, there's an awful lot of information in google that could be helpful to a campaign, not the least of which helps target and mini targeting down to people's interests and help them in terms of marketing tools. what do you think? >> also if they're keeping the data, literally, e-mails could be stored and at some later date the government says we want those, via the patriot act, which would be overreach, and if they did that, they would turn them over, who knows what they would find. it gets scarier and scarier. they have to be stopped, the government.

>> i think we're too far gone on it, from the private companies that have all of the information. so like when i go on google if i do a search for, looking for shoes like kimberly's, next time i go to one of my favorite websites, all of a sudden they're automatically there, an ad for shoes like kimberly. corporate america is doing to us what we accuse the government of doing. >> i am not worried about google, i am worried about my wife. >> looking at google? >> you have to clear your history, america! >> so shady! >> especially if you're looking for kimberly's shoes. >> you can clear it? >> i don't know, yeah. >> fox fire i think? >> i don't know what i'm saying. you know what, i always wondered what google meant, now i know what it is. if you're conservative, it means you're screwed. >> that's been fascinating. you understand that google, all

these guys, the guys that own it and founded it, they're very, very tight with obama and the administration. that's why he was giving talking points that say listen, don't do bad things, we have to comply with the patriot act, et cetera, et cetera. he is playing for one team. >> let's remember on the other side of the coin here that karl rove people, and rightfully so, legally, the walmart list of people from the rose institute in california, people collect data as many places to match people up to voting history. >> pandora is a good example, they have the capability to listen, they can track what you're listening to, and next time you go on itunes, you find out if you like this music, you'll like this music, and it is kind of useful. >> that's developing a profile and marketing to the profile, the difference is when it is data, e-mails, voice information, that's information that's not a personality thing

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that it was a result of having had chickenpox. i wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

all right, time for one more thing. whistleblower isn't the story, congress being briefed isn't the story, the story is an out of control government that has no accountability, spies on every one of its citizens, checks their phone calls, reads their e-mails, sometimes it picks and chooses who to give special scrutiny to by their political beliefs and no one is held accountable. folks, when all else fails, go to the constitution. fourth amendment, the right of the people to be safe in their

houses. founding fathers knew it, i agree with them 222 years later. >> i thought you had to go quick? >> that was quick. >> all right so over the weekend, i got to go to nashville which i loved, went to country music fest. i also got to go to the bluebird cafe, heard a wonderful artist named david bradley. originally from england, has chosen america as his home. he has this song about the troops singing to the troops of fort knox, tennessee. ♪ >> that's david bradley, you can look him up online. i thought he was fantastic. nashville, he put on a great show. bet you're glad we're out of your hair. >> i have a nice heart-warming

story, nobody died. john mal covich helped saved a life, he is performing at the elgin theater. this was the show, support him, a man was in the area, 79 years old, he tripped and ended up getting his throat slashed on some construction scaffolding. very serious. john jumped into action, helped the man stop the bleeding and he survived. >> hillary clinton on her twitter, wife, mom, lawyer, women and kids advocate, floor floatist, author, cracker,@hilla cracker,@hillaryclinton. >> don't conflate the irs

scandal, instead say don't lump them together. only things that should be conflated are the kardashians. >> we have to leave it there. see you tomorrow night for a special edition of "the five" from washington, d.c. stick around for "special report" everybody. the big brother bombshell, the man behind it. obama administration damage control, and are they really paying attention to your phone calls e-mails and internet searches? this is "special report." good evening, i'm bret baier. in the scandals, a 29-year-old high school dropout lit the biggest fuse of all. contrac