that is your last call. thank you for being with us tonight make sure you go to gretawire.com. i got a special kind of news yo to know. part of a pattern you also need to know. see you then. hello, everyone, i am andrea tan taros, with dana perino, greg gutfeld, bob beckel. it is 5:00, this is "the five." the u.s. government hasn't captured america's most wanted leaker, but the chinese media found him. edward snowden gave his first interview since identifying himself as the man identifying the spying program. he said he is still in hong kong, plans to remain there, hoping to have courts determine his fate.

he said he is not hiding from justice but wants to reveal criminality. sounds like he is watching news coverage of himself. he says he is neither a traitor nor a hero but an american. what do you think, dana, tra traitor or hero, and why haven't we moved to extradite him. >> i think there's a lot of this story left to unfold, his story in particular. i don't know that i buy it. he says he has more information to reveal, who he reveals it to remains to be seen. if it is the chinese media, that would be odd. if it is the guardian, that would make sense, seems like that was his connection initially. i think very little of him. it is not that -- i don't have ill feelings towards him, i think so little of him, i have no respect for him. >> you can be, eric, against snowden, against the leaker, and you can be against the program. is that where you stand? >> no, i am for the leaker. i think the fourth amendment was written with one specific purpose in mind, make sure that

you don't have a tyrannical government overreaching into your private life. there is not a better case for the fourth amendment than what snowden has done. you have to have probable cause, you have to have a reason to go after someone. you have to either suspect espionage or suspect terrorism. you can't hide behind terrorism, then you use the case of if that's the case, why don't we wire tap everybody, why don't we allow cameras in everyone's home and let the government decide what is terrorism and what's not. you can't do that. we are not iran, saudi arabia, we're not russia, we're not communist china. if we prosecute snowden, we will become one of those countries. >> there's likely a lot, greg, we don't know either. they could have indicted him, you don't want everyone to know his every move, but is there worry and fear the chinese may interrogate him before he gets back to the united states? >> he was interviewed by the

south china morning post, which is another word for chinese government. they don't have freedom of the press. him talking to chinese press about our security is like a human being talking to a lion about your tasty flesh. if you think he is a hero, he is giving our information to people whose sole purpose, bob, as you know want that information. eric, as much as you feel strongly, i don't know if you understand the fourth amendment. >> wait a minute. you're telling me i don't understand the fourth amendment. it protects us against unreasonable search and seizure. blanket multi million phone lines, records taken by the government, then deciding what they want to do with it. you call it reasonable, we have different definition. >> you keep defining this differently than i define it, having -- they're not listening

to your conversations. that happens when you have to go to the court and do it. so it is not actually going in and trespassing, eric, that's where we are different. >> you can take your phone number and i can data mine you, find out exactly what you had for dinner a couple weeks ago and probably what prescriptions you purchased, too. >> i could tell you that, save you time. >> are you kidding me? >> i don't trust the government at all. >> you trust the government that they won't do something stupid with the information. >> wait a minute, i think you both can disagree how you feel about snowden, but you can both not trust the government. i think what greg is saying and what you're saying, too, bob, and i think we could probably all agree, whether you think he is a hero or traitor, we can't have people like snowden running around giving this information out. and it begs the question whether or not this surveillance is legitimate. we don't know. >> we do know this, that it has been going on for a very long time. my guess by the way, he is under sealed indictment now, one of the reasons he probably can't

move as freely around the world as he wants to, but he has behind him now a body of evidence that shows that before 9/11 and before the patriot act there were very few organizations that were looking into records like this. once we passed the patriot act, a whole proliferation of agencies existed for the purpose of going after terrorists. fine. think they were doing it for the best purpose of the country, yes, but do i think they went too far in every case, yes. as a result of that, every time we established a new law, or established a new agency, more of our legal rights were diminished by the government and that's where we have a problem. >> the first person at the nsa keith alexander testified on capitol hill. he calls snowden a liar, based on the testimony that snowden gave, saying i could hack into

e-mails if i wanted to. here is rebuttal by the head of the nsa. >> i saw an interview in which mr. snowden claimed that due to his position at nsa, he could cap into virtually any american's phone calls. true or false. >> and i think his story, for example, he has inflated some things. he said he was paid a salary of $200,000 a year. turns out that's not the case. they he was paid 129,000. i have a question about this heroism of snowden because people who think he is a hero, do they think bradley manning is a hero as well, the one that

leaked the military secrets. to me in a global war on terror, you have to look at both equally. i don't think either of them is a hero. >> perhaps there was a less glamorous way to bring this debate forward than the way he did it. i am sure there had to be. maybe he was scared. this was the first step that he took and if that step makes us less safer, he is not a hero. >> go ahead, eric. >> i want to make a point. yes, bob, you're right. nsa has been around since 1957. >> right. >> the bush administration used the nsa to do something like this. but in every case according to george bush himself, it always had to involve a foreign entity, always had to be a foreign agent or reasonable suspicion of activity outside the united states. what the obama administration and this nsa did was a blanket we'll take all the phone records. as far as we know, we only know

verizon, could have been others, too. we don't know what google gave them. google wants to tell us what they gave them, there could be a lot more. >> they do now. i think the companies were complying with what the government was asking them to do, and it is powerful when the government calls and tells you you have to do something, talking about the irs when they call and tell you, the tea party group, turn over book club recommendations, you do it because the government is telling you to do it. one of the complaints about the congress has been lack of oversight or perceived lack of oversight. i think maybe that's the most useful thing to come of this. perhaps there needs to be as written in "the wall street journal today, what is the cost benefit analysis, are we paying too much to keep this information in hand to possibly go back and track down terrorists? that might be more useful conversation. >> that's a great point, dana. in 2012, president obama promised that he would not do a lot of this stuff without the oversight of congress. we now know that he implemented

the drone program without oversight of congress. what upsets me the most, you see selective issues of leaking when the administration feels it is convenient or beneficial to them. that's the root of the ap story, a foiled yemeni plot they wanted to announce, didn't want the ap to scoop them on that. director alexander addressed this concern that maybe the program is working, we just don't know about it. he said today in testimony that these records helped foil dozens upon dozens of terror plots. >> it is dozens of terrorist events that these have helped prevent. >> you said dozens. we collect millions and millions and millions of records through 215 but dozens of them proved

crucial, critical, is that right? >> for both here and abroad. >> great. he didn't want to tell us what those dozens and dozens were, he said he wants to wait to brief the intelligence committee. but i'm wondering, we know about an enemy's list, we know intricately about the bin laden kill, clearly congress doesn't know of all these instances, let alone the surveillance program from the beginning many allege. aren't you interested in hearing what are the dozens -- >> absolutely. i think president obama, look, god, i have been -- president obama has demonized 95% of everything i believe in, so it is very difficult to say give the guy a chance on this one because i believe strongly creating a database of numbers is not violating the fourth amendment. you can find some great lawyers on the left and on the right who agree with me, and i mean legal scholars, not just lawyers. this is not listening to phone calls, rifling through e-mails, this is something that according

to alan dershowitz of the daily beast has been allowed, called mail watch, i brought it up before. in my mind, this is something they weren't prepared to talk about because it is secret, this is something that's secret. we have to admit, when something is secret, maybe it is secret for a reason, but now it is time to talk about it because it is out there. let's talk about it. >> we made a huge -- i wasn't in a position of authority at the time, but when the terror surveillance program was revealed by "the new york times," i think the bush administration was way too slow to get off the mark to explain what the program was, partly because there were so few people who knew about it. then all of a sudden the warrantless wire tapping became the buzz word, and it wasn't the correct description of it, and the more you teased it out, the more you understood people then were able to calm down. the obama administration finds themself in similar position, but i think now they should be more forthcoming. i think general alexander is in

a terrible position, trying not to get in position like clapper, nowesq esquhe is being called a liars. i think going to a committee on the hill, bipartisan, is the best way to lay more of this out. >> do this without any probable cause or without suspicion of specifics is dangerous for everyone not involved. >> how do you know? >> how do you know they're not going to wire tap. you heard him say. >> i don't know. >> this is what amazes me. i know a lot about this. and i am saying i don't feel like i have enough information now to be able to make such pronouncements, to be passionate, call people liars and just because you were saying maybe we should give them a chance, nobody has enough information yet to be able to do that. what i am saying is that the

administration should i think be a little more forthcoming where they can be in a safe place in the intel committee, to talk to our representatives on both sides of the aisles, so they can come back and say yea. >> it reflects like the gun control argument. something happens, they say we need to get rid of all of the guns. someone like me, it would be better if everybody was armed. then the discussion ends. bam, you hit heads and walk away. this debate is suffering from the same problem. you have one group saying this is a violation of the fourth amendment, other people are saying no, it is data collection, and it is there to prevent terror, and this is the way it is in the new world of the internet. if we keep going back and forth -- >> let's do the gun debate. give you another analogy. the national registry for guns, i am against that because i don't know what they want to do with it.

i am guessing the same people that say snowden is a bad guy are the same people saying let's go for national registry because it may prevent something bad from happening. >> the drone attacks have anything to do with the intercepts, it is an entirely different program. >> see how do you know that? >> because you're a talking head. they have to have strong opinions. >> when they're communicating one to another, for example, sent e-mails, a text, through the united states, foreign to foreign, we catch it here, how do you know that's not used to track somebody down and kill them by drone? >> i don't know the answer to that, except i do believe attacking somebody with a drone and killing them is an entirely different situation than picking up his e-mail and listening to it. >> how do you think you find him? how do you think we find people to kill by drone? >> we can all agree on this. both of those things were done in secrecy to a lot of people.

they didn't know about the drone program. this is where the left and right can come together and they didn't know about the nsa surveillance program. this quote from thomas jefferson is making the rounds, if you're willing to give up some privacy for the sake of security, what is it? sorry, it has been a long day. >> benjamin franklin. >> give up privacy for the sake of security, you don't deserve both. >> abraham lincoln said a house divided will not stand. >> i just want to, one more thing. there are two powers that love this story. russia and china. and when you are -- >> and al qaeda. >> they're licking their chops over this, offering to give this guy sanctuary, shouldn't that tell you something, that maybe the world loves it when we're down? they're not going to help us when we're in trouble, they don't give a damn when we're bombed. >> how about not putting us where there is a snowden? >> i would love to see that.

>> that's a good discussion. how we do that. >> how do you prevent information leaking further from this point on? up next, who knows and who knows more about you than the government or google? should you be worried about the powers of the internet search giant? we will report, you decide when we come back. ♪ have a good night. here you go. you, too.

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$0 due at signing, $0 deposit, and $0 first month's payment on any new volkswagen. visit vwdealer.com today. ♪ all right, we all made up on break, we're all good. welcome back, everybody. >> i don't have to listen to your phone calls to know what you're doing. if i know every single phone

call you made, i'm able to determine every single person you talked to, i am able to get a pattern about your life that is very intrusive. the real question is what do they do with this information that they collect that does not have anything to do with al qaeda? >> that was senator biden going off the rails about the interest of government in 2006. but haven't heard from old joe on the intrusive government he and barack are running now. it is not them snooping our every move, google, facebook, amazon, countless others tracking us for years, e-mails, texts, even what we eat may be stored in databases. nsa scandal opened a pandora's box and downright alarming theft of our rights to privacy. let's bring in the google and facebooks of the world.

they do it, you sign off -- >> they say they're doing it. i mean, there's a mission statement. >> are you worried about it? >> i have so much crap to worry about, that's the last thing, what i last searched for to find out. >> you search for weird things. >> i was saying the other day, i have come to enjoy the things that, for example, on amazon, you order something, after you order it, it says if you bought this, you might like that. i am like oh, i think i do like that, turns out to be my next favorite product and i have been sucked in, i like it, and i believe nothing i do is private any more, i just accepted it. >> if they're able to do that on a marketing basis for the free market, government says google, amazon, want to know what they're buying. >> that's not what i hate about google. what i hate about google, if i

google myself, type in greg gutfeld is a -- this is what comes up. greg gutfeld is an idiot, greg gutfeld is not funny, followed by greg gutfeld is a jerk, followed by greg gutfeld is a moron, greg gutfeld is a tool. >> i think greg gutfeld needs to read the fourth amendment. >> i want to make a point. technology is a faster runner than society. this is inevitable, we are catching up. technology is hussein bolt, society is bob beckel. the fact is, we can't go back. we love the internet, love paying our bills online, like having our information out there. we have to figure out what are we going to do next. we haven't had that conversation. >> bob? >> well, i appreciate the analogy. i can't run five feet.

seems to me they have been doing it for years for marketing purposes, only recently the government has gotten into it, urged them to help them with various parts of national intelligence programs. the the question is, should google have the right or should at least the courts approve google using private information secured by american people and giving it to the government? that's the issue i have. >> google runs g-mail, 50 million users. they cannot only find out who you're e-mailing, find out the text of what you're saying. >> and they have been saying it. people don't know when they check the terms and conditions, google condensed to one page of privacy policies, they're okay with it. they're signing off on this. we have been talking about, debating nsa and the government, the government, the government. google has more information, a

digital t the government can get, which is the issue today, google of course is angry about this, they want to put it out there, but it can be accessed anywhere in the world. everybody's digital trail, credit cards, personal messages, and you can even sign off. people don't realize it, for google options, them making a direct copy of your hard drive. this is part of this free culture digital society being debated in washington, d.c., going to be a bigger debate. google is on the side that everything should be public knowledge, pictures, photos, no copyright, you can steal books, images, and it is all out there, and they're leading the charge. it is very scary. that isn't constitutional. >> google snowden. everybody okay with that? >> let's get to a situation where you don't create the ability for someone to be a snowden. they can't do it, they can't

have our private information unless they have probable cause. >> we should have a show down between two lawyers. news on the ten-year-old, sarah murnaghan, fighting for a life saving lung transplant, many of you tried to help her. some breaking news on that front moments away. ♪

♪ i woke up bob. all right. as summer approaches, i think the first time i hit the fair, and not sure what i am doing

first, bumper cars, tilt-a-whirl, stuff your face on funnel cake until you barf on a ferris wheel. me, i head to the side show bearded lady. they're sad and up for anything. every scandal and attraction, with so many our heads spin like tea cups in disneyland. dana cried on that. as sad as the sideshows are, they help the president. i bet you haven't heard that lois lerner still has access to the department's computer system. i doubt she's playing solitaire. and what about bolo, be on the lookout. and elijah cummings, blaming it on an unnamed republican, probably the same guy that told harry reid mitt didn't pay his taxes. remember that? assessing corruption, important to keep your eye on the ball. they're already targeting

americans based on belief, fully able and ready to ruin you. this is evidence of targeting we feel might be happening later with the nsa, except it is here now. that's a scandal that you can run with and be dumbed to drop it, let the president skate again. he is gotten used to it, like a karny taking your cash. he can barely contain his smirk. >> try again and again to get those rings through the thing. >> they never work. >> andrea, we are huge fans of the allentown fair. >> knew you would go there. >> probably the best funnel cake you could find in eastern pennsylvania, but that's not what this segment is about. >> darn. >> can we talk about the irs a second? we kind of not talked about it. first you've got lerner still on her computer. then a rush order on surveillance equipment, hidden cameras, concealed clock radios, cameras in plants.

what do you think they're going to do with this stuff? >> i think that may be reasonable in ordinary times. maybe they were using it to catch tax cheats, that's what the irs is supposed to do. i can understand a perfectly legitimate need for camera in that instance. the question now, even though there's report that they cancelled the order, whether or not they're going to use devices typically used to go after tax cheats to now go after political enemies. five weeks ago, they were going after tea party groups according to the center for law and justice. this is why everything, greg, with every single scandal, lois lerner logging on, the nsa, under ordinary times i would be fine with moderate government surveillance and fine with them buying cameras to put in plants, but now i am not. we can't take their word for it. i am not all right with it. >> the fair in eastern pennsylvania. >> it was a long winded metaphor. >> i see. it certainly was. >> would you like to comment?

>> no. >> eric what about benghazi? >> one that ticks everyone off. >> the bearded lady is a dude, dude. >> no, it is not. actually, never got that far to find out. >> that's great. spend a half hour with darrell issa on the hill earlier, talked to him, said why did these people come, they raise their hand, swear under oath they're telling the truth and come out with things, can i call it a lie, untruths, provable wrong statements. >> awkward. >> and what happens? we don't see anybody do time or reprimanded. he told me it is hard to get someone perjuring themselves. it is a big hurdle. catch them saying something wrong, they can clarify later, that's what they're doing. they're clarifying later about all these comments. the problem is no one is telling us what they're saying. >> they haven't got them on perjury yet.

very clear. tough one to prove. >> that's true. >> producer said in my ear dana hasn't said anything yet. >> she's being so kind. i said something about the -- >> do you even have a question? >> yes, i do. >> where is the irs story going, will we return to it, is it in the rearview mirror? >> it will be like a slow tease, a little nugget here and there. >> like the bearded lady. >> i've never seen one. >> never seen a bearded lady? >> no. >> you have a 5:00 shadow. >> seen a bearded lady doesn't work at the carnival. >> another network? >> oh, eric. coming up, white house decides to let anyone at any age buy the morning after pill. but does that pose dangers for young women? we will examine the evidence when we come back. ♪

that music was not chosen by me. in a surprising move, the obama administration dropped its fight on restrictions of plan b, making the morning after pill available to girls of all ages without a prescription. until now, the emergency contraceptive was stocked behind pharmacy counters, not on drugstore shelves, girls 16 and younger needed a prescription to buy it, but no more. andr andrea, a circuit court judge ruled this long battle and fight and discussion is over and the administration instead of appealing said fine. now the company has to reapply

to the fda for over the counter status. it has a lot of support from the medical community, but moms and dads are pretty worried and they should be. if i were a mom or dad, i would be worried. a 14-year-old girl is an adult under this administration, but a 26-year-old is considered a kid who can stay on their parents' insurance. i think dana, whether pro-choice or not, this should be left to the parents. if i were a mom, i would be upset. this is a drug and leader of planned parenthood put out a statement saying this will make emergency contraception available on store shelves like condoms, and women of all ages, one, this isn't condoms, it is a prescription drug with side effects, and women of all ages, like saying senior citizens of all ages, these are young girls, parents have a right to know what drugs are going in and out of their kids' bodies. >> eric, you're the father of a

son. any of your neighbors or friends, anybody with a daughter you talked to, what do they think about this? >> i haven't talked to them about whether they're okay with their daughters having access. i would like to point out, i agree with president obama who said, quote, he was quote bothered by the idea of a 10 or 11-year-old buying drugs as easily as buying bubble gum, i agree with him. why didn't they stay with the lawsuit, continue the lawsuit? >> bob, can we ask you that. maybe they felt this lawsuit was not something they could win in a court of law or did they decide to end this discussion and move on? >> i think probably partially they couldn't win, but i'm still trying to get over senior citizens taking the morning after pill leaves an image in my mind that's tough. i think they ought to be available to anybody, if they have proven to work and have, there are very few side effects.

we have kids being born to poor children and we ought to be able to give them access to it. >> speaking of that, greg, $50 a pill is what it costs. you made a point before that some critics of mentioned that young women or young girls, early as 11, 12, 13 having sex, are usually not having sex with boys of the same age, they're usually much older, and there could be more abuse that way. do you think that's true? >> there is an argument to be made that the sex could be a product of rape, instead of going to somebody out of fear of being pregnant, they go there. i think there's pluses and minuses. the key plus, you put -- bad news, it may give you a false sense of security, like safety belts, they tend to drive faster. if you have a pill that takes care of a calamity, will you be

inclined to increase risky behavior. some studies say that's the case. pluses and minuses. i think it is not fair to me because when i fly, i have to get a prescription for xanax, and that's not as crazy, serious a medication. xanax otc. >> $50, you make a good point. how are poor people able to afford it? >> there you go, now we will have open debate, should it be covered under obama care, be free. to greg's point, you need id to get claritin. >> because some people turn it into things like meth. >> stopped doing that months ago. >> now you're busted, nsa is coming after you. still to come, incredible news about the ten-year-old sarah murnaghan, in desperate need of a life saving

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♪ there is breaking news today about the little girl whose family fought so hard to get her

at the top of the list for a set of adult lungs. sarah murnaghan is getting those lungs today. as of now, sarah is still in the operating room. family spokesperson says the surgery is expected to be completed around 8:00 or 9:00 tonight. a reporter from our fox affiliate in philadelphia caught up with her mom, janet, earlier. >> we are just breathing a sigh of relief, just awesome and exciting and we're just so thankful for the donor. i know for their family it is a huge loss, it is a great day for me, a tragic day for them. just a blessing interefrom god. it came at the last minute and we wouldn't have made it much longer. >> this clearly is departure from the historical regulations. eric, what do you think? is this the right thing to do to give this girl a chance at adult

lungs or dangerous precedent? >> the ethical debate will follow. right now, she had days to live. we contacted dr. siegel, and i agree, he said put the kids first, kids deserve to be at the top of the list, at least the list of the sickest, include them in that list. i am in favor of from ruling. >> dana, what about you? >> i think it is amazing what her parents were able to do. they got public support behind her to the point that a judge intervened. then you had a change in policy. now you have this surgery today. science moves faster than policy makers usually. i think now that science is able to take parts of the lung to help her be able to survive, i think there will be a wholesale new debate about what is going to be allowed. i learned a lot about organ donation and being an organ donor is important.

talk about it with your family, on your driver's license, it says whether you can be an organ donor. >> if this girl doesn't make it, is the accusation you pushed too far, young kids can't handle this kind of operation, and why did we do it? >> i'm sure there will be some people that may come and say that. let's hope we don't have to have that conversation, let's hope she does make it, but i will say this. this did reveal, this is a positive but there's another positive, it did reveal we need to look closer at these laws and it did reveal something else. we have the secretary of health and human services stand in front of the country and say she didn't have the authority to change that rule. that was a lie. she did. and she decided not to do it. i am glad we're having this debate. again, it goes back to trust in the government. why are we trusting the government to make these decisions on all this stuff? we cannot take their word for it. >> greg, you say rightfully so that science runs ahead of human

nature and do you think this is a case where science has made this old rule outdated? >> you know, there's another positive to this unusual event. it is an unusual event, a rarity. it is a rarity because there's a lack of people dying that allows for these lungs to be available. in a weird way, the benefit of our society and progress we see and science of america, how exceptional we are in this area makes it harder to find replacement lungs. we have to be grateful for that. i am glad the mother brought up even though it was a blessing for her child, it was a tragic loss for another family. for that young girl to receive those lungs, somebody had to give them up, we should always remember that. you got to sign that card. i have yet to. >> i have and it is a good thing. >> i don't think they want my organs. >> or bob's. >> one person can save eight

lives. one more thing is especially next.

test test.

it is time for one more thing. i'm going to kick it off. we have been talking a lot about the irs scandal, haven't talked about tim tebow who's now playing for the new england patriots. we will leave it up to comedian jay leno to tie the two together. >> some exciting news from the world of sports, tim tebow signed with the new england patriots. nobody knew about this. this was a top secret deal. nobody had any idea. only people knew were bill belichick, tim tebow, and nsa. the bad news, now he is associated with the word patriot, he is being audited by the irs. yeah. yeah. >> it is funny because it's

true! greg. >> i love baseball humor. way getting a lot of hate mail because of my stance on the nsa, a lot of people saying i used to be a fan of you, greg, until now. i believe if you were a fan of mine, you never liked me. when you call me a dirty jew, i am not jewish, i am catholic. call me a dirty catholic. all of your slurs are just wishing that i was gay. sorry about that. >> 3 million people. >> isn't it shameful that you have to address those two issues? >> actually, i don't mind it. both are almost compliments. >> now you'll get a slew more. >> i will go quickly. spent the day in washington, d.c., took a couple of pictures,

quickly, the hand pick on all of them. look at that. white house. and look, there we are. by the way, that's the set from last night, that was the number one rated show in all of cable news last night. number one. >> we all want to watch -- wish president george hw bush happy birthday. that's great granddaughter there with him and condi, and steve hadley with the socks. he is 89 years old. >> i am feeling like i am not going to live to 89. trying to do research on one more thing, i don't understand it. i am going to pass today.

>> bob. >> i can't understand it. >> bob, you need a long sleep. >> i slept for four days. >> thanks for watching. >> thanks for watching. >> women come to "red eye." it is like all in the family if by all you mean me and me you mean a hot tub. now to andy levy. what is going down on tonight's show? it has been a long day. >> coming up on the big show, a 27-year-old crazy woman videos herself going on an 8-minute long racist rant at a dunkin donut. bonus points if you already guessed she is from florida. and the nsa scandal is about to enter the second week which means it is about time to take a hard-hitting look of the blog post from the leak erred ward snowden. and twitter and twais book -- d