>> but peter won't be here. >> this is the best four hours i've spent. i love it. >> thank you so much for being in for tucker. it was great. hope you'll join us tomorrow. we'll have a lot of fun. they say they're snooping to protect us. but as the lawsuits pile up, will this nsa mess end up hurting one of the strongest parts of our struggling economy? hi, everyone, i'm brenda butner. the bulls and bears this week. gary b. smith, toeben smith, jonas, john layfield along with susan ox. welcome to everybody. okay, gary b., you say all this snooping could shock the one part of the economy that's actually growing? how so? >> absolutely, brenda. look, i'm going to call this the nsa tax, if you will. you know, we have the e-commerce segment of our gdp is about $269

billion. it's growing the fastest of any retail segment that we have out there. in fact, it's probably, if you look back over the last few years, really supplied the bulk of the jobs and growth and innovation in the retail sector. if people now are afraid to go online, and they are, i mean, they've been afraid in the past. you know, credit cards and stuff like that. this is only going to exacerbate it. if that industry starts to shrink, oh, boy, the economy is really going to suffer. >> jonas, you say consumers are going to get used to it after a little while. >> i don't think it's going to change shopping behavior. the other day, you can save 3% on something and go through an unsecured internet connection versus going to a store, you're going to take that deal. that said, there are other parts of the internet which could be burdened by overreach of the government looking out for our security. you know, the whole e-mail, if you stop sending e-mails or do less because you think you're being watched and you start making phone calls, using faxes -- a lot of companies i have to unfortunately do faxes in many cases because of

security issues with e-mail and sending applications. it slows down productivity. there's errors, it's blurry. it creates needless use of labor. so you can slow down the efficiency that we get from the internet by leading to a state of paranoia where you think everything is insecure because some nsa agent is redirecting traffic into their supercomputer somewhere. >> it's not really american consumers you're worried about. you think it may be globally there's going to be this paranoia. >> well, as gary says, absolutely, brenda. the big issue here is that 90% of all the clients, all the customers of facebook or aol or any of these sites, google, are outside the united states. you know, particularly in europe, they have a whole different idea about what personal privacy is. and their idea is a lot more privacy than our united states. if you look at the business growth of those companies, and remember, every dollar that they create over in, you know, let's say germany creates $2 or $3 of income over here because of

management, because of, you know, data centers, et cetera. so i think the biggest issue here is that we've totally disregarded the fact that the internet businesses which to gary's point are one of the fastest growing and high-paying jobs in the country are really a threat outside the united states, much more than inside the united states. >> well, susan, you actually think this could be a benefit to the economy. >> i do. you know, i think we have lost a lot of the privacy around purchasing data already. and people are comfortable with that. you know, you buy something on the internet. jonas buys a dog toy on the internet, and then all of a sudden he's saying ads for kibbles pop up. that's because they're coming through your purchasing data and they're suggesting ads to you. we've already gotten comfortable with some level of losing that privacy there. when you think about encryption, i think there could be a really strong boom in the crytion services. there are a lot of companies already starting to do this. this is what american ingenuity looks like. we see a problem, we find a way

to fix it. >> john, do you think this will impact the economy for the good or bad? >> i don't think it's going to be negligible either way. facebook had a lot of problem with beacon. that was sharing users' data with advertisers so they could target certain users. that really hurt them for a time being. they got over that. look, cloud-based computing in the united states, you're going to have a fallback. you're already having some of that from corporations overseas and governments overseas. but facebook wasn't going to get into china anyway. and the consumer here -- look, this is like saying the phone companies are going to die because there was wiretapping in watergate. it didn't happen then. and people now realize, look, our government's been snooping since they first had horses and tin with a string tied between it. this is nothing new. i think people realize that. >> we're not talking about your college education, john. come on. >> leave that out of this. >> i want to know how they did that snooping when there was two

cans on either end. was there a third can we didn't see in the middle of that line? but in any event, you know, jonas made a good point about the productivity. but you know, what he didn't mention is that shopping over the internet -- i want to come back to this e-commerce point -- is a way of improving our productivity. 10% of the people out there said you know what? i'm sick of the spying stuff. i don't trust the internet any longer. i'm not going to buy something on ebay or on amazon. i'm going to have to get in my car and drive to the mall. oh, my gosh. how many people are avoiding the hours you spend doing that, avoid spending the gasoline? i think this could have a significant impact. >> but gary, what is somebody doing online when they're buying something that has anything to do with spying or anything to do with terrorism? if you're afraid of that, i'd be much more afraid of going to a restaurant with my credit card and having the waiter or waitress swipe my credit card. it's only happened about ten times. >> i agree with, toby, but do

you think the common man or woman is able to make that distinction? >> yes, i do, as a matter of fact. >> come on. americans are smarter than that. >> i'll be honest with you. i don't. i think that they're looking at all the data, all the transactions out there. >> okay. jonas. >> i think you're confusing the other risk of, like, credit card security when you're shopping with wholesale storage of our data by the government. now, for example, right now another thing going on is this cloud computing which means you're trying to put all these files and documents and transactions onto the internet. that's a huge wave going on in business. and it could get slowed down. if you think, well, if i put everybody's files online and then the government has access to it whenever they want, they really can't do that on your own hard drive without warrants as easily. whether that's true or not, it could lead to that kind of behavior where you slow down the movement of paperwork. talking about the health industry, moving documents online, getting health records online out of paper files. you could get in the way where consumers wouldn't want that necessarily because they perceive the government is

creating a honey pot of data that's open to hackers or whatever by taking it all essentially. >> the horse has left the barn there. >> exactly. corporations already have the honey pot of data. they're already collecting all of this information on us anyway. i don't think consumers will really see an impact. >> to your point, that's like cops doing local police work and there's going to be a boom in burglar detector business. that's probably not a good way to run the country either. >> i'm trying to make lemonade out of lemons here. >> remember also they're getting the data right out of the pipe. it doesn't matter whether you store it on your hard drive or anybody else's. they're getting it right out of the internet. so jonas, i'm sorry. it's been happening. the internet has not slowed down here. over in europe -- >> wait, wait. just to be clear, if i store files on my hard drive on a computer in my office, for example, that's different than on the cloud because now you're talking about sending it somewhere where it can be interjected by the consumer's p.r.i.s.m. >> i understand. your phone call and your e-mail is the only thing the government

cares about. they don't care about that weird stuff on your hard drive. >> we'll see where this goes. >> all right, john. >> look, there's a reason that toby loses his credit card in restaurant. he drinks a lot of wine and flat leaves it on the table. >> that's another problem, though. how does that build on your point sf >> we don't have to get personal here. okay. >> they spy on their people. apparently we spy on ours, too. that's not going to affect whether we buy e-books or not, not in my opinion. >> thanks, guys. secret meetings over nsa's secret snooping. neil's gang knocking on closed doors and demanding answers. th that's at the bottom of the hour. first, unions blitzing to airwaves and storming d.c. in a major push for immigration reform. >> every day that we wait is a day wasted and a day that we've lost, a day that the economy won't grow. >> growing the economy or a ploy

to grow union membership? we debate it. you decide. i turned 65 last week. the math of retirement is different today. money has to last longer. i don't want to pour over pie charts all day. i want to travel, and i want the income to do it. ishares incomes etfs. low cost and diversified. find out why nine out of ten large professional investors choose ishares for their etfs. ishares by blackrock. call 1-800-ishares for a prospectus, which includes investment objectives, risks, charges and expenses. read and consider it carefully before investing. risk includes possible loss of principal.

i'm kelly wright. hamming right now in washington, d.c., the faith and freedom conference is under way. texas governor rick perry spoke a little while ago talking about how faith has helped him through life and his political career. the message draws citizens who are involved in their government. also set to speak today, ambassador john bolton and former alaska governor sarah palin. another horrific chemical plant explosion in louisiana just one day apart. at least one person is dead, several others hurt. we're told workers were pressurizing a vessel, but the pressure built up too much, causing it to explode like a tire. on thursday, two people were killed and dozens more injured in a plant explosion just a few miles away. authorities still investigating the cause of that blast. i'm kelly wright.

we take you back to "bulls & bears." logon to foxnews.com. you're watching the most powerful name in news. fox news channel. we need immigration reform now to help the economy. unions launching an ad blitz calling for it. and labor bosses at the white house demanding it. >> it will be good for not only newcomers or immigrants, but it will be good for every worker here. it will be good for business. it will be good for the economy. and that's why all of us have come together to try to push and get this thing done this year because every day that we wait is a day wasted and a day that we've lost, a day that the economy won't grow. >> but tom, you say the economy has nothing to do with this. >> that clip was an absolute crock. that was one of the most disingenuous things i have ever heard in my life. unions are dying. and that's the reason for this.

they were at 40% of the public work force about 30 years ago. they're now at 6.6%. there's 7.3 million people according to bls in 2012, end of to 1 2012 in unions. you're talking about people coming from countries where unions are prevalent. this is 100% political. there's no other way to spin this. this is a matter of survival for these unions. >> susan, you agree with that? is that about growing the economy or growing the union base in >> this is absolutely about growing the economy. if you look at who else was there at that press conference and at that white house event, it was the head of the u.s. chamber of commerce, tom donahue. if you look at who's been supporting immigration reform, it's all the high-tech companies. businesses are crying out for this reform. they want it because they roh it's going to help them and the economy. >> there is a big difference in reform for the right reasons and what the unions are doing. immigration reform should be done. a lot of political leaders do it. to associate them with unions i

think is wrong. >> how can you say your organization whose sole purpose is to protect the rights of workers and not immigration reform? >> jimmy hoffa. how about that? >> okay, toby. we have some video of unions protesting at may day. they've been doing this for a while. this is a big deal for them. >> well, absolutely. and with all due respect to my dear susan, the high-tech industry is talking about high-tech job qualified immigration where peoples have high levels of skills, and we need them desperately for our economy. that's not what the union's talking about. the union has a product to sell. and that product is the promise, the illusion that they're going to help working-class people get higher wages and more jobs. so they now have a whole new group to sell that product to. unfortunately, as mr. layfield alludes to, the product doesn't work. you know, yeah, they're looking at a chance to have, you know, new opportunity, new market. but the fact of the matter is, it's not going to work any

better for them than the 23 million people who dropped out of unions in the last 30 years. >> jonas, what do you think of that? >> the economy also needs unskilled tech workers that are imgrants. if you saw what happened if they could magically remove all immigrants who were here i will leely, you would see how important they are to the economy, too. unions are dying, and they need to grow. most importantly, they need to grow it with people in jobs that are not outsourceable to other states like mechanics who -- and people that can move to another state where there's no unions. that's why they're also going after fast food workers because fast food jobs and farm pickers, they can't move the avocados to alaska or some cheaper place. it has to be where it is. it's the perfect growth area for unions. they can move wages back above minimum wage and get them in the union. the bosses can't relocate into a no-union area, be it china or the south. it has a huge growth potential

for union membership. >> gary b.? >> well, i think, john, basically summed it up when he said the speech is a crock. how do we know it's a crock? because just a short while ago, unions were against this immigration law. they didn't want the immigrants coming in and taking the jobs until, as a few people have pointed out, they said, huh. wait a second. we have 11 million undocumented immigrants that would be subject to u.s. labor laws including the right to unionize. and that's even before they seek permanent citizenship. so trumka is saying, wait a second. this is really actually good for us because it inflates our dying role. that's why we know it's a crock. >> okay, susan. >> look, you know, as i said before, this is an organization who is supposed to be on the side of workers. we have a 11 million undocumented workers in this country. because, you know, historically, there have been twohe

labor movement, and there have been some who have been against it, and there have been some for it. the afl before they merged with the cio had been pro-immigration for a long time. >> that's got to be the last word. when a car, a bike, an ipad, even a concert all for just showing up at school? it's happening. and guess what? someone here says it should be happening more. with the fidelity american express credit card, every purchase earns you 2% cash back, which is deposited in your fidelity account. -is that it? -actually... there's no annual fee and no limits on rewards. and with the fidelity cash management account debit card, you get reimbursed for all atm fees. -is th it? -oh, this guy, too. turn more of the money you spend into money you invest. it's everyday reinvesting for your personal economy.

coming up, forget about going to school to learn. how about going to win an ipod or a car? plus, the motor city driving dangerously

how much for a certificate? schools are now handing out cars

for perfect attendance. the los angeles unified school district which happens to get money based on attendance is rewarding kids with everything from ipads to chevy sonics just for showing up. and toby, you think it's a smart idea? >> yes, it's a smart idea. by the way, all schools get paid on attendance, but that's not the issue. the issue is the kids with the best attendance, they have the best graduation rate. if it works, we should do it. a better idea, in many regions, they say this. if your child does not have a very good attendance record, 98% or higher, then we're going to take your welfare away. it's amazing how well kids attend school when mom and dad's welfare check is on the hook. i say let's do it all. >> gary b., they're being rewarded for staying on their butts in the classroom, not for performance. >> exactly, brenda. look, toby's right.

there is a reward, you know, system here going on. and i suppose it does work. here's the problem with it. it's coming out of the taxpayers' pocket. i'd rather see a private system where the schools have to fail or succeed on their own. why not a voucher system? do you think the kids attending sidwell friends get paid by the state for kids' attendance? no. they have a -- exactly. they have a great attendance record, though, because the parents kick their butt to go there because they have to pay to go there. and they give the kids a quality education. if the los angeles school district doesn't give quality education, they shouldn't have to pay for that to get the kids to show up. >> gary b., this is actually coming from private money. this is not taxpayer money. >> this is from private money, yes. never mind. >> it might at some point. john, take this on. >> look, i help run a kids program here in bermuda. we have problems with a huge

dropout rate. i would love to have an iphone or ipad to reward these young men or women based upon their performance. i gree on attendance, buttist also got to be measured to graduation race and so you're not getting in trouble, you're passing. it's got to be some kind of type of metric. not just attendance. what happened in los angeles, they get about $32 per kid per day. and they were losing funding because of it. that's a big reason behind this. >> that money. and where's that money coming from, though? the $32 a day? that's not private money. that comes from the taxpayer. >> okay. susan. >> we should be taking this extra money and improving the actual experience of education. we're losing progrart programs,c programs. absolutely. there's so much deteriorating in our public school system. we should be putting more money into improving education, not giving them ipads. >> more money? susan -- >> first of all, i went to one of those private schools with taxpayer money and i had the

worst attendance record at the school. because the reason why this is a good idea is because in what i call the gameification of school, which is incentivize, we're already spending the money on the school. that's a sunk cost at this point for taxpayers. as woody allen said, 80% is just showing up. then you've got to use other gamelike tricks. >> all right. gary b., you've got the last word. >> we're fixing something that's broken. public education has not moved the needle one inch in the last 50 years. let's move on to a new model. how about a voucher system and private education? >> okay. that's got to be the last word. thanks, guys. and thanks to susan for joining us. he says he's a hero for revealing nsa snooping. he may have just revealed the one stock you may need to own now. there is a pursuit we all share. a better life for your family,

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predictions. gary b., you're up. >> brenda, booz allen has been getting bashed lately because of all this snooping stuff. i like the stock. i think it's going to be up 20% by the end of the year. >> jonas? >> too early in the scandal. >> we have to wait a while. john, your prediction. >> aol is being forced to get in the buyout game by yahoo! and google. i think the stock's up 30% in a year. >> gary? >> seriously, john, aol? come on. >> okay. toby. what do you like? >> forget about aol. we've got new game consoles. that means game stop will sell a bunch more games. i think it's up 30% by the end of the year. >> toby knows all about that. john, what do you think? >> toby should be a video game character. until he is, i'm a bear. >> i think he is out there. >> you're still on aol. come on. >> jonas, your prediction. >> detroit is now so broke, they're missing debt payments.

lend your money to states that have the tax pay. california muni bonds. >> toby. >> i'm a total bear. if you read meredith whitney's great book, you wouldn't put a penny into california muni bonds. cavuto is next. >> well, they might be watching you. is it time to start watching them? hi, everyone. glad to have you. i'm neil cavuto. and watch out because apparently washington does not want you finding out much at all about this nsa snooping. senators closing the door on another secure briefing this week. let me say that is what's pretty weak. doesn't the public deserve better? who's going to save them? not this man of steel who might be smashing box office records this weekend. yeah, this man of steel wants to smash down those doors of taxpayers everywhere. why are they laughing?