greta next to go on the record. we'll see you back here tomorrow night. fwreta, take it away. tonight, well, hold on to your seats, the irs targeting scandal just got worse. >> targeting of tea party groups was taking place at headquarters in washington and nobody is going to convince me that obama is not involved. investigator is now focusing on the role of holly paz, a senior irs official based on washington, saying she was in on the plan to give extra scrutiny to conservative groups. >> she told congressional investigators she reviewed 20 to 30 investigations back to 2010 and some went unanswered for more than a year. >> she sat in on every -- almost every interview the attorney general with potential people

violating folks' first amendment rights. she sat in on the interviews. that's not how you get to the truth. >> and the irs upper management strategiz strategized to come up with the planted question that came before the american bar association meeting in early may. >> they use power to intimidate citizens to donate whatever their political belief, republican or democrat. they initially said it wasn't at the white house and then said, well, people did know at the white house, so it clearly has gotten to the front step. >> one of the worst abuses of power imaginable. when we think of the power of the irs, and sclaeclearly used after organizations of particular political

organizations. >> scandal rocks many in washington, the oval office dealing with a man sleigh. many fingers pointing at the president. more americans questioning whether president obama is an honest and trustworthy leader. 48% say he's not honest and trust forthy and 48% have faith in the president. last month, 49% found him hon onnest. 51% said he was honest a year ago and april 2009, 73% thought the president was honest and trustworthy. al alan walsh is here. is the declib in the number, is that part of the second term number, or is he earning this decline? >> he's earning this decline. we talk about all of the things

mounting. talk about benghazi. why was ambassador chris stevens in benghazi? what was the president's impact as far as the decision he should have been making. an ambassador came under attack. who sent susan rice out there to really tell a lie and deceive the american people, why did he continue to tell that lie for two weeks after on univision and at the united nations. the irs scandal is huge and personal to a lot of people. you don't see the president getting in front of this, talking about the climate that is happening across his administration, but what do you see? people getting promoted. you see people going off on taxpayer-paid vacations, so this feigned indignation is starting to wear thin. >> why do you think he -- maybe he doesn't care. why should he care? he's not going to run again, and the line so famous from early on, first elected in 2009,

something with senator mccain or something saying i won. why should he care? is it just popularity? or that he can't get his agenda passed? >> the president of the united states of america, that's an incredible responsibility. >> personal pride? >> it's not personal pride. should be the country's pride. the exceptionalism of this country. that would be the same as i'm a commander of battalion and i see my bat tallon going to the ground, not able to meet its missions but i'm not caring about it. you're the leader, the one that said here i am to lead this great nation and if you don't own up to those responsibility, you don't hold yourself accountability to american people first and foremost, you will see this type of slide. >> does he show he cares? >> i don't think he does. let's talk about last week when have you this announcement, we'll be supplying arms to the rebels in syria, the deputy come out and make that statement.

i think he has to be able to show that he cares. >> you think maybe he doesn't get it? something so important arming rebels, a slippery slope. he is the commander in chief. and something so important, arming someone to overthrow a government, would you think it's something the president of the united states would speak to the american people about. >> you would think some of talking about committing our resources and forces. understand that 30 years ago, a horrific event when we put u.s. military sources in an area. we lost 238 marines, not something we should take lightly. what's interesting when you watch today with the g8 summit, would you see the disdain on vladmir putin's face. not just the crust trustworthiness the president has here. it is the nationinternational a.

>> putin is ex-kgb and against what we want to do in syria, so it's not surprised that he has disdain. >> i remember when there was a certain president that stood at the brannenberg gates and told a soviet leader to tear down the wall. and the wall came down. we're looking for that type of moral courage in our president and we're not seeing it at home, on the international arena, and i think that's starting to really come to roost. >> i think the president is surrounded by people to tell him that he's doing great. i think he has been surrounded by media that continues to protect him and tells him he is doing great, but now the show is kin of up, and the man behind the curtain is being exposed. >> i actually blogged tonight, and he is speaking to the

brandenburg gates, but we ought to hear from him, the thing, trust us, we're doing the right thing is not resonating with the american people. they don't trust the nsa. >> you cannot have teleprompter speeches. we need a window into the president's heart, talk to us as american people. and i think you see his approval ratings down at 44%. by the time it comes back from this africa vacation it could be down to 41 fir%. >> of course, congress down to 10%. it's almost to the point it can't get any lower. >> you see a failure in washington, d.c. our debt continues to grow, the deficit, maybe reducing somewhat. but our debt to gdp still bad. economy not turning around either. >> now to the irs. new trouble tonight. new allegations of former irs

director steve miller was up to his eyeball plotting a coverup. >> good to see you, greta. >> explain where does the former director of the irs fits into the scheme to minimize, keep the lid on what happened, what is ultimately exposed at the irs. >> according to testimony given to congressional investigators, holly paz, lois lerner's assistant. ms. lerner knew about it at least as early as mid-2011, when according to the inspector general's report when she was briefed on it and essentially said we have to change these things. >> so they ruled out this phony

thing, where lois lerner went to this aba meeting and got some woman lawyer, essentially her patsy to ask her a phony question, and the phony question was about the targeting, and this is all in anticipation of the report coming out in a few days and that sort of plot was also according to ms. paz, was hatched by the director of the irs? >> well, we don't know those -- we don't know those specifics. what we do know from ms. pa sfwlnz is that ms. lerner and mr. miller were talking about how to roll it out. we don't know it was going to take place at that moment in that way, but given the i.g. report was about to come out, they had a choice, roll it out in the ultimately awkward way they did, or waiting for the ig report to come down.

>> here is one they missed, though. in order to hatch their plot to soften the blow, ms. lerner in mid-2011 could have done the right thing and simply fixed it then. >> well, to their credit, she did say, look, these -- these flags, these be on the lookout for terms, tea party, 9/12 groups, these are inappropriate, get these out of here in mid-2011. but she knew there was an i.g. investigation going on, as did mr. miller, which is why those conversations took place, and she plead the fifth when she went before the house oversight committee, because there's an ongoing department of justice review, but it also saves her from potential questions from people like obviously darrell issa or jim jordan about the

whole scheme which -- my guess would be incredibly embarrassing. at the very least. >> impairing, that's mild way to put it. there's lots of phony stuff. ms. paz said we weren't targeting people, it was just using tea party, like a brand like kleenex. here is the question. if it was a brand thing and really applied to everybody, has anyone at the irs identified any liberal groups that got extra scrutiny. >> ms. paz said at least one. >> and how many conservative and tea party? >> i think about 300 total that were -- >> sort of hard to buy it was a generic term excuse, if there was one, the 300. anyway, david, thank you, nice to see you. fbi director robert muller over holly paz just last week. congressman jim jordan is demanding answers. his question. why was paz sitting in on the

investigation of irs targeting? >> let me ask you a couple of things. is it typically appropriate to have the investigator have one of the central players, ms. holly paz, one of the key players at the tax exempt division, sit in with all interviews with employees in that division is that typically ho with how investigation is done? >> i understand what you are saying about the circumstances. i can't -- >> in your time as an investigator, is that how you would do, sit next to the boss with the person you are trying to get investigation with. >> is it appropriate to have her collect the data the inspector general? >> not familiar with -- >> if that happened, that appropriate? >> i'm not going to speculate.

>> the latest irs charade, attempted coverup is growing higher. kelly ayotte joins us. >> nice to see you. >> they are investigating the irs and one person that comes up is this woman named paz. she sat in while they were investigating the lowers of the cincinnati irs. what do you think about this? >> i think it's absurd. you can't conduct an objective investigation this way. think about it. this is the person you report to, and your asking people to be straight and you might have to implicate her. conducting an investigation this way doesn't make any sense. >> i find peculiar i confess, the friday before the i.g. report came out, showed the targeting, lois lerner appears before some meeting at the american bar association, something, and found some patsy,

some woman lawyer and said ask me this question, and maybe -- i thought that was a deliberate sort of try to make the report look not as bad. >> it was a complete setup, completely contrive. knew the i.g. report was coming out. bad news coming? you are going to announce it first. >> they did this phony thing, this plot? >> they knew it would be picked up. and it was. that afternoon it was picked up and went from there. to say they could disclose that themselves first. so contrived from the beginning. >> paz said in her interview, lois learner, according to her, lois learner said to her that the head of the irs was well aware of this not. nothing prevents him from going before the cameras and not doing this stupid charade. more honorable than trying to --

>> absolutely. and to set it up for the aba to ask you a question that you already know the answer toto give out to make this big announcement. and not to have miller, director, come out and say it. that's why i think the whole thing was really kind of a charade. >> does it make you more suspicious the way they rolled it out, or just sort of clemcy handling of a pr event? >> i think it makes me more suspicious. one thing t clumsily handle a press conference. but at a press conference, knowingith going to get picked up, doing it that way. you had to plot this out, greta. ith not something where you clumsily did go. >> doan you think the month after you found out, wouldn't that be the way to do the honorable thing? >> exactly.

>> the best way to handle it, it would have been a more truthful way to handle it, and frank frankly, it would have made people feel less suspicious. the more we foin ouind out, the questions there are. >> they wanted to stick it to cincinnati. >> exactly. >> the other thing she is reported as saying and i haven't seen transcripts myself, that she is reported as saying that -- that in sort of rolling this out, there was something being done by others. she clearly exonerates herself from this. when we had any discussion, it was about a bran, like kleenex, but only one liberal group, versus 300, from the last guest. >> i saw, she was trying to claim that tea party was a term

for groups in general. that strikes me as absurd. >> it wasn't be so bad if out of the 300 groups, 150 were -- >> if it were balanced, yes. but the groups that were targeted, tea party, patriot, 9/12. if you can come up with one, you're lucky, but hundreds on that en. if they were balanced, we might be able to believe that. >> and lois lerner back before the house committee. you think she waived her fifth amendment or not? >> i clearly think she would waive the fifth amendment, you would never let a witness come in and not claiming the fifth. it just wouldn't happen. i think she really did waive it. >> she should have taken the fifth and went outside and said her peace. >> she didn't do that. now, fire up greta wire.com. will irs commissioner steven

miller and supervisor lois lerner trying to pull a fast one, or was this just a good-faith pr strategy? vote now on gretawire.com. >>. >> straight ahead, secret internet and phone spying on you. the key to fighting terror according to nsa, but edward snowden says the administration is exaggerating its value. republicans have a new man to keep irs out of the obama care. world leaders ready for a guys' night out. put a caption on this photo, and we may read it before the show is over. years ago, my doctor told me to take a centrum silver multivitamin every day.

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. nsa secrets exposed. keith alexander testifying tomorrow before house intel. surveillance from 20 countries helped stop terror attacks. there a push to declassify more information on those attacks. >> good to see you. >> what are you going to ask -- what would you ask keith

alexander tomorrow, head of nsa. >> very important that he explains what the program is and what it isn't and what the concerns are that the public shares. right now, the public is absolutely and justifiably concerned. this is all about context, right? everything from benghazi to the irs to department of health and human services. initial story made it sown like all our e-mails were being read and our phone calls were listened to. i was in philadelphia, i had to give a big national security speech when i was up there. i didn't recognize the program that was being written about in the paper. when i found out what programs were later, i understood these programs, i knew these programs, and we had had a lot of evidence about them. >> here is the problem. they just get phone numbers, not content. >> two different programs.

>> there's the internet and the phone. >> no, the one program, 702, is very simply this. it is people on foreign soil who are engaging in foreign trust tooufts, not americans, they are foreigners, not on american soil, foreign soil, enfwajing in terrorist activities, that should be fully acceptable for anyone to look into their activities. >> as ian it, verizon is handing over information, right? that would be domesticic, right? >> i don't want to -- i'm on the intelligence committee. i don't want to say anything that's in the classified realm. i have to be very careful about what i say about them. somebody with a top security clearance divulged classified information. >> i got that. the one program --

>> that's the one program, people who are not on american soil, who are engaged in trump. >> the one we're upset about, the one wean to be domestically, and the president's response, trust us, and you talk about trust, an urs, incredible waste in the government. gsa and irs spending $50 million on parties the past two years. why should be trust the government? >> the president is bankrupt on the trust fak for. there is a ren why. people are appalled at what's going on in government. why should they trust them? capability for hacking, whether u.s. e-mails or phone calls, why should we trust them. be also know we are at war and islamic jihadists declare war on

the united states. let me say a separation between government scandal and the government trying to keep us safe. these are programs that actually do work and kept american people safe. >> if they work, this whole thing about a needle in a haystack, the most classic example, the tsavraevs, and all we had to do is look for c confirmati confirmation, grab their phones and websites to see if they are making bombs, buying pressure cookers. we were tipped off and even with that information we couldn't -- >> oh, i'm livid about that, greta. because i had asked a question of the fbi, did we check out the islamic society of boston? the radicalized mosque he was part of? the fbi chose not to talk to people connected with that

mosque. that's call willful blindness. we can't subordinate political security for political correctness. >> all of the people in my hometown at risk of phone numbers and internet, and you get tipped off for some guy and -- >> that's what's absurd. the most obvious information we have, we won't track down, we are subordinating political security to political correctness. we can't do that. >> thank you. coming up, the irs getting ready to manage your health plan? one senator ready to pull the emergency brake. obama care, creating jobs. this time, it isn't the irs, but you wont like this hire either. we'll explain, minutes from now. and to keep our commitments. and we've made a big commitment to america. bp supports nearly 250,000 jobs here.

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do you want to give the irs more power? how about this one. more money? senator john vorasso, a doctor, has a plan. >> i believe the irs cannot be trusted on the health care law, but yet they are the enforcers of the health care law. people have been anxious about the urs, now there is actual anger. the irs has lost its contradi credibility, as has the president. they have abused power and abused trust of the american people by was wasting all of this money, $50 million in conferences in a couple of years, $4 million on one conference, people have seen that terrible line dancing, the american taxpayers paid for that at a time of tough economic problems in this country. >> according to the budget for next year, $12.9 billion, and if

congress doesn't give them catch for the $440 million, the 2,000 employees, who happens in january? >> the enforcer of the health care laws are looking for over 16,000. 440 million will cover 2,000 more employees. i see no reason to fwuf them a single penny and let them deal with it. >> i can't see them giving $440 milli million. if the irs doesn't have the man power or cash to implement the health care, what happens? >> well, they will be slowed down in the process, which is

the goal hint this, do not reward them by giving them more money when we know they aren't responsible. the entire health care, greta, money put it in for irs agents to investigate you, but not enough to train people to be doctors and nurses to actually take care of you. >> that's a little messed up. there is a shortage of doctors, and there is nothing in there that allows enough doctors. >> there aren't enough doctors, nurses, p.a.s, nurse practitioners. the population of the country growing faster than the number of people being trained. life expectancy has fwrd you'lly increased. when she was born, the average life except aepectancexpectancy.

>> if they need $440 million to go toward implementation of health care, at some of time this will elm plowed. >> the urs is enforcer of the health care law. they want to make sure when you fill out the tax returns, you have to prove to them you have health insurance, not just any, but acceptable health care insurance. >> what is the dooms day scenario when they don't have the money to do this. >> max back us called it a coming train wreck, the ifrp rs very involved in just people trying to buy insurances on the exchanges. they go active october 1st, start purchasing on january 1st, when they push that button to send all the information they put into the computer to the data hub because of the irs, homeland security and social security, i can't imagine this will be ready to work.

the government has missed all so many on the health care law. they will mess this up too. >> plus, people don't trust the irs much right now. nice to see you, senator. >> thank you for having me. >> obama care creating jobs for lawyer lawyers. how is it that we're going to get more lawyers' jobs? >> it's maybe more that certain lawyers are busy at a time when a lot of lawyers are twiddling their thumbs, this is lawyers who specialize in pretty detailed regulatory aspects both of the health care reform bill and also some previous regulations coming down the pike for this industry. pretty heavily regulated as it is. >> so give me any sense of how much this means to the legal profession. maybe not necessarily in dollars and cents, but in terms of the job market or anything?

>> it's definitely helpful. some of the bigger law firms across the country are really beefing up their practices. one, squire sanders had perhaps even doubled the side of their practice, and also a boon for smaller lawyers and lawyers at little boutiques in less expensive areas. not the kind of work you can charge a ton of money, not sort of new york lawyer's prices. ist been quite a boon to some in the profession. >> a prediction on another way it will expand lawyers on this. the statute, at least when you've tried to sort to sift through it, it's incomprehensib incomprehensible. you can't understand it. it goes out to community and people try to get medical services, get in a fight, sue each other, the judge has to make a decision. and it turns out that maybe there is legal malpractice

involved. the legal mall tra will grow, because it's so complicated and people will make horrible predictions on all of the cases. >> i couldn't speak to that, but i can tell you certainly a number of, you know, hospitals, medical groups, insurance companies, they are certainly bringing on extra legal help to figure out exactly what they need to do to comply, and some are telling us costs are significant. they may slope off overtime. these are very complicated regulations. some expect it to stay pretty intense. >> who is going to pick up the cost of the lawyer. somebody will try to pass it off on somebody. who ends up holding the bag on this? the patients or the doctors? >> it will most likely be the share holders of the companies or the owners of the hospitals, those sorts of groups, whoever is paying for the lawyers. could get passed on to patient as well. >> more mergers in hospitals?

>> the key guiding principiple to keep costs down, and so there have been a number of mergers. some targeting by antitrust regulators as well. getting be a more complex world legally for a lot of health care companies. >> and mergers and antitrust means more lawyers as well. thank you very much. >> thank you. coming up, eric holder back in the hot seat. in two minute, would you go on a trip to africa or a foreign destination? you might be paying for one. this may make some of our heads explode. that story in two minutes. the verizon share everything plan for small busines

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>> the president's trip to africa may cost between $60 million and $100 million. is that worth it in the time of sequestration, when we've got people, various government agencies, working four days a week, taking a 20% cut in pay because severe budget cuts in effect. >> that was the range of price tag they put on that trip is fully consistent with kinds of prices or prices we've paid for trips to the past, for republican and democratic administrations. the question to ask, is the up with just asked. is it worth worth it? >> is the africa trip worth it. go to greta wire.com and tell us. ♪ blind spot warning.

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the house judiciary committee is extremely mad for spying on the associated press and fox news journalists. he has been refusing to answer questions about the people spied upon. so after back and forth, the attorney general decided to come back? >> he walked up to the end of last week, we gave him that amount of time to schedule a hearing with the committee. came back and said three things. one, he'll answer the letter that we originally sent him a month ago, and he will do it fully. then he'll come up and meet with the chairman, the ranking member of the full committee, subcommittee, myself, jim sensenbrenner, jim con yores, bobby scott. because of the kim case, the leaker in the rosen matter is still under prosecution, he can't answer everything in public, we'll talk to him in private. we'll judge if the answers are

fullsome or we need to do more. >> he denied any knowledge or information about potential prosecution of journalists. is that what you are interested in or not? >> i'm interested in three things, getting the abcs to our questions, which are focused on the james rosen matter. came before the committee, he said with regard to the potential prosecution of reporters. i hadder in heard of that. a judge, watching with the ap says, oops, i haven't released this search warrant that i was to seal for 18 months, i unseal it three years later, and took the time to apologize to the american people for being a year and a half late. it give us the information in the warrant, which said not only did they accuse rosen of being a -- a coconspirator in a violation of the he is be on e

espionage law, i don't know how they jive, but we've asked the attorney general to explain this. >> the question asked of him originally, sort of centered on the associated press ap story, that's what justice department is saying. when he answered the question, he didn't know anything about potential prosecutions, thinking only about the ap and not necessarily of rosen, would that be a satisfactory answer or not? >> aprove the whole process with regard to james rosen. approved that, and now we hear that's not particularly their defense. the plan is standard operating procedure to go after the reporter. you go through his e-mails and maybe help you with the leaker, but that's not what the privacy act intended to do. >> every time my clients named

in a search warrant, i have had them arrested. i don't buy that argument. >> allegations serious as they made them for chief washington correspond respondent, why wouldn't they prosecute him. they are lying to congress, lying to the court, or doing both. we want answers to the questions, accountability, and change how this is operating. >> congressman, nice to see you. >> thanks for having me. >> if you work at a news website or comedy show, what caption which you put on this photo? you may see it right here, next. [ male announcer ] running out of steam?

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>> greta: okay everyone it's time to hash it out.

apparently she's now hot on ebay. betty white putting herself up for sale for a good cause. people magazine reporting want to win a date with betty white? it's going to cost you. starting bid $1500 proceeds go to benefit morris animal foundation so good luck, guys and it's your turn to add a caption to this pic. you've been sending us your caption so what will president obama and vladimir putin think something one tweeter user tweets well, obama can i buy you a beer? i'm good at beer summits. caption for obama and putin show whose idea were these counseling sessions again? just use hash tag greta or go to gretawire z take a look. do you see anything wrong? buzz feed reporting the college world series made this almost ironic spelling mistake. ouch. apparently ncaa

nac -- ncaa needs spell check. these guys must like the letter l. they gave it the old college try. and enough to get you out of jail? nfl on fox reporting ochokinko apologized for slapping his attorney on his backside. a judge released him from jail. now, you might remember this video of him slapping his attorney's backside. the judge decided to slap him with 30 days in jail. he apologized and she let him out a little early. let's hope he can keep his hands to himself this time around. and in more oncategory, in one corner, man, other corner, well, you'll see. a nan a must eye boxing match

check out this video. looks like this guy might have a shot this, year, fight dirty. look at him go. why would anyone think it would be a good idea is beyond us. we report, you decide. don't forget use hash tag greta in your tweets and post to us z a man tries sending a message to the president but uses a wrong tactic. next. ♪ roundup ♪ now roundup has a new sharp-shootin' wand ♪ ♪ just point and shoot, and weeds are gone ♪ ♪ 'round fences, trees, even mulched beds ♪

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>> greta: want to send a message to the president the quickest way might be easier than you think. >> there is a guy, a crazy guy arrested for jumping over the white house fence and pry triing to spray paint a political message. yeah. does that guy want to get a message to the president he should have written it in an e mail to literally, anyone. >> greta: that is your last call. thank you for being with us tonight. i just put a special thread up about the president's trip to

africa asking if it matters if other presidents also took expensive trips. go to gretawire.com. see you tomorrow night at 10:00 p.m. eastern right here on the record. >> bill: the o'reilly factor is on. tonight: >> i think he is a traitor. i think he has committed crimes. nfrkts, by violating agreement. >> bill: the u.s. closing in on nsa whistleblower edward snowden who is still on the run and still talking about national security issues. we will have the very latest. >> did you do anything personally to make sure that this insidious, discriminatory practice was stopped? yes or no? >> the most aggressive interrogator about the irs abuse is congressman trey gowdy from south carolina. what does he think is really going on? the congressman will be here. also tonight, carl rove, bernie goldberg