>> brian: special thanks for doing a great job on the radio piece. >> gretchen: log on for the after the show show. clayton and i will be here tomorrow. >> clayton: see you, everyone. bill: here we go on july 3. obama-care delayed, a critical part of the president's signature healthcare law has been put off until 2015, another year conveniently after the mid-term election of 2014. that's where we begin on a rainy day in washington. martha: sunny new york. here is the situation. businesses with 50 or more employees will get an extra year before they are forced to provide those workers without insurance with insurancer face a fine. the treasury department is expressing concern over the

complexity of the requirement and more time to implement them effectively. bill: critics saying this sits just another sign -- saying this is just another sign the law is unworkable. this announcement means even the obama administration knows the train wreck will only get worse borrowing a phrase from a democratic senator. charles payne joins us. give us the news. what does this mean? >> companies with 50 or more employees were facing a $2,000 per employee fine if they did not provide healthcare. so we saw restaurant and companies cutting back on the number of employees and part time. pushing this off for one year is not the solution. businesses concerned about

obama-care today you are not going to hire someone tomorrow. bill: you call it a ticking time bomb. explain. >> if this part of it doesn't work, this an acknowledgment of that. they were counting on $8 billion to $10 billion to pay for the program. that won't come into play. exchanges aren't coming up. insurance companies are leaving. united healthcare left california. it will an unmitigated nightmare. it's a slow-moving train wreck and it hasn't changed. bill: in the business world -- that is your business -- this is not encouraged companies to hire, is that what you are saying? >> absolutely not. it's a dark cloud that was over our heads and we pushed it up. we can see it and there is no way you are going to make any

sort of aggressive move as an employer unless you have to. in fact you will do the exact opposite. a lot of people watching us right now working 40 hours. these are lower income people. they are lower income earners. they want a piece of the apple pie and want to climb the ladder of success. they are going to get their hours cut from 40 hours to 29 hours if they are lucky enough to keep a job. bill: the point you make about the uncertainty is well taken as the companies try to plan for the next year and the year after that. it came out posted on a blog. >> that's the best thing to do when you have bad news. martha: and on the eve of a long holiday weekend. we know you are wondering what this means for you and your healthcare. could businesses putting off this mandate affect you? marc siegel will be here to tell

us what it means for all of us. a showdown in egypt as the clock is ticking. we are hours away from the deadline that was set by egypt's military leaders for president morsi to give in to the protesters or step down from office. this is a huge development. 15 million to 20 million are the estimates of how many people are been in the streets. if he does not step down, an hour from now the military says they will move forward with their own political plan. conner powell is joining us from cairo. >> reporter: egyptians appearing to expecting and bracing for a change as the deadline inches closer in just a few hours we'll know what the military says they are planning to do. protesters continue to fill tahrir square. but a lot of the action is

taking place behind closed doors. morse are you * -- mohamed morsi reminded the world that he was democratically elected. the military is denying they are meeting with opposition litres. the military says it's not launching a coup. it says it wants to reach an agreement. tensions are running high and there is a lot of concern what is going to happen in the next few hours. martha: you have record numbers of people. and listen. just pause for a moment. i want everyone to take in the sound here. >> reporter: the big concern is violence. both sides have had people pledge their lives to defend

their side. the rhetoric is intensifying. the military released a statement saying the final hours while morsi supporters were chanting they would die for islam. people are calling for calm. their voices are being drowned out by those using aggressive language. the question is it will be peaceful for violent. we'll only know in the next few hours or so. but stay tuned. things could get very nasty and ugly if any indication is the past 24 hours. martha: we have seen that before and everybody hopes that is not the case this time around. but as k.t. macfarland said revolutions happen in three parts. bill: how do we get to this point? only yesterday the clock ticking on the military's ultimatum.

president morsi pledged to die for his cause and to remain in office. he's been in office for just about a year. the sharia law-based constitution that he put in place has been in effect for 200 days. now 20% of people across egypt it's been estimated have turned out to call for morsi's resignation. martha: the george zimmerman murder trial just getting underway for the day in florida. before the jury comes in the judge is hearing arguments from the attorneys on whether they should admit the evidence about a criminal justice course george zimmerman took in college that included information that explains florida's stand your ground law which has been such a huge part of this story. it comes after a medical examiner testified about george zimmerman's helped injuries. >> on the injuries to the back

of the defendant's head consistent with having been repeatedly slammed into a concrete surface? >> no. if you look at the injuries, they are so minor. >> let's introduce now the injuries here. two lacerations above may not have impacted when the bottom -- >> that's possible. martha: that was said to be a good moment for the prosecution. but the medical examiner did not treat him at the scene, she is going on the photographs. phil keating joins us live. how much material are the prosecutors hoping they will bring in today? >> reporter: quite a bit, martha. several pieces of material, some of it dating back two years, all showing zimmerman's interest and passion pursuing a career in law

enforcement. ththey have been in the courtrom 35 minutes. the jury is not present for these lawyer arguments. prosecutors want to show zimmerman's criminal justice interest, that includes course work from his college studies. materials that include florida law, specifically the stand your ground law. his application to be a cop in sanford and his application for ride along police. >> prior to this incident had you even heard of stand your ground? >> no, sir. >> reporter: that also included this comment which trayvon martin's parents find offensive. >> do you regret you had a gun that night?

>> yes. >> do you feel you wouldn't be in this interview if you didn't have that gun? >> i time was all god's plan. >> reporter: the prosecutor pointing out all of this is relevant because the prosecution feels it shows zimmerman's state of mind that he expressed desires to pursue criminals and catch them which they think happened the night he shot and killed trayvon martin. defense attorney o'mara says if they allow this material they ought to include trayvon martin's school records which included suspensions. and the judge said this is not tit for tat. martha: whether it goes to the issue if he was a wanna be cop and if he followed trayvon martin that night after he was told not to follow trayvon martin.

the detective, chris serino. what is the feeling whether he benefited the prosecution or defense. >> reporter: it's hard to say who he benefited more. but the defense and the prosecution earned testimonial answers that bolsters their case. detective chris serino originally recommended manslaughter and the possible curer toes had the enforcer of the law point out that the allegedly suspicious 17-year-old was walking where he should be. >> was there any indication that trayvon benjamin martin, the young man 20 days past -- he just turned 17, was committing a crime that evening? >> no, sir. >> was there any evidence that young man was armed? >> no, sir. >> reporter: serino also said zimmerman following trayvon

martin also was doing nothing wrong. martha: thank you. we'll be watching all this action as it plays out this morning in the florida courtroom. phil, we'll see you later. bill: after court yesterday george zimmerman's defense lawyer was addressing the possibility that zimmerman might at some point take the stand. >> we are putting on the case. we have a lot of witnesses we want to show this jury, what was said and things about george that are out there and suppositions. it's always a dynamic decision. first i have to convince myself i have to, and it's only after i decide that the state has proven its case beyond a reasonable doubt, we'll put him on to counter it. bill: is it common for an attorney to talk like that with a reporter? just sayin'.

he also diamonds. martha: we are just getting start. we want to show you this. think twice about parasailing. these two girls were basically slammed into the corner of that building. we'll show you the whole video coming up. bill: a buy who is trying to catch a flight ... martha: time is running out for egypt's president to meet the protester's demands. listen to the buzz in the crowds this morning in cairo, egypt. we'll go back there live to see what happens if morsi does not step down today. what makes your family smile? backflips and cartwheels. love, warmth. here, try this. backflips and camm, ok!s. ching! i like the fact that there's lots of different tastes going on. mmmm! breakfast

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martha: new details on two teenagers injured in a horrible

para sailing accidents in florida. watch some of this. >> oh [bleep] ... oh [bleep]! oh [bleep]! martha: you can hear it in the man videotaping this. he can't believe what he is seeing. two 17-year-olds are in critical condition. the para sail detached from the boat that was pulling it. strong winds caught the parasail and slammed them into the building. everyone is concerned about the safety of these girls. >> it's hard to watch. something you will never forget. >> first it hit the hotel. then it grabbed the rail. then of course it brought them up. came over the top. this is when i noticed something was going on.

i didn't know what it was at first. >> they are from indiana, these girls. updates on their conditions as we get them. bill: egypt many military said to be holding an emergency meeting. egypt's military says they are ready to implement a plan if necessary. you have watched this your entire life, what gives, what does morsi do? >> there are three moving parts in this equation. you have the opposition that feels it has a win at 20 million people on the ground. you have morsi who refuses to make any concession including advice coming from washington and the army. he wants to fight. then you have the army which presumably in a couple hours is going to declare a roadmap. they don't want to form a

military government. they want a roadmap having the opposition becoming the interim cabinet and asking president morsi to approve of this otherwise they will do it without him. bill: he said he's willing to die in office to maintain his democratically elected position. i would bet that 9 out of 10 people in that crowd think he will resign in two hours. but that's not necessarily the case. >> no, you are right. the spieches indicative of a hard-core ideological view of the world. he mentioned that word. he says it's time to die for allah and the constitution he created. but there are oppositions between the army and morsi is back and forth with them. but the president of egypt cannot let go of his power. he feels people are very angry. if he lets go of any part of

power they will go after him at the end of the day. bill: do we have much sway this time around? >> we could have. if we ask the opposition that showed strength on the streets of cairo to form the cabinet. he would have survived. the opposition will be in the cabinet and we did not put enough pressure on morsi, instead we were putting pressure on the army not to go against morsi. that was a mistake. >> reporter: we'll lean on you for your analysis as we move forward. walid, thank you. we have more breaking news. martha: we have the first big headline out of the zimmerman trial where they are currently in a 10-minute break. judge nelson just determined they will allow the prior school records of george zimmerman where he studied the law, studied police work and they are going to try to prove that he

was studying the stand your ground law in florida and he was familiar with that, and that led him to pursue trayvon martin even though he was told by the 911 operator he should not pursue him. they are going to try to argue he was a wanna be cop and had a zealous need to pursue and find justice against criminals in his neighborhood. that's the tone of what is expected to come from the prosecution on this. that raises a whole bunch of new questions if that's allowed into evidence, will trayvon martin's background and school records be allowed into evidence as well? that's one of the questions that will be brought up no doubt. we'll have a panel on thisd discussion moments away. call f. and i said, "that's not for me! that's for some old person!" but we finally talked my mom into calling adt. then, one day, i slipped and broke my hip. the pain was terrible, and i couldn't get to the phone.

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martha: it's seen as a big win for the prosecution in the florida courtroom of the trial of george zimmerman. right before we went to the break we told everybody the judge made a decision that she would allow george zimmerman's prior studies of the law and of police work and of the stand your ground law which they claim he studied as well. all of that to be permitted. you think that's a big win for the prosecution. tell everybody at home why. >> i think it's a huge win. the reason is essentially they are arguing they are not going to say it's a prior bad act. but what they are going to argue is it is a bad act. that he knew knowledge of how police worked. he had knowledge of how to follow people, how to use the stand your ground law in his defense and how to testify. all those things they will use to say he knew this stuff.

he might have fooled the police that he was being truthful but he wasn't. martha: i see that as one part of this. but in terms of what he had been studying. he told sean hannity that he had never really heard of stand your ground, that he wasn't familiar are stand your ground. if it turns out he had in fact studied that, that will put his credibility into question. >> it certainly may. but they don't have evidence that he did study stand your ground. they don't have evident he was at a class where they were discussing stand your ground. they just have evidence he took a class and got a b in a class and an a in another class. they don't know when he was there, what he learned or when he learned it. i don't feel that this evidence is really relevant to the facts. martha: they are in a 10-minute

recess, that's why you are seeing the seal on the left-hand side. the other big issue here as i see it is the question of whether or not he was a sport quote wanna be cop. whether he wanted to take the law into his own manned. we know from the recording he was told no, do not follow that young man through the neighborhood. the police will be there soon. thank you for registering your complaints. but do not follow he was told quite clearly. fit turns out he always wanted to be a cop. he had a gun register he carried with him all the time except when he went to work. does thot that promote the argument he wanted to take justice into his own hand? >> i think he's a wanna be cop. that might have been why he was following them and keeping the police updated. everybody will get hung up on it that he kept following trayvon martin. but in florida law that is not an aggressive act. that's not the initial

aggressor. but the state keeps arguing he shouldn't have followed him because they told him not to follow him. that wasn't an order from the police. martha: that is what we know because there is evidence he followed after he was told not to follow. what we don't know and what no one will ever know, i think, unless there is some witness to this we don't know about is that trayvon martin jumped out of the bushes at him and attacked him. that's george zimmerman's story that as far as i can tell is not corroborate bid any witness. >> you are right about that you we have the forensics and they will show trayvon martin was on top of zimmerman when he was shot. that to me is huge. if he did jump out of the bush or if he had his gun drawn you are not going to jump on top of a guy and start beating him if he has his gun drawn already. those facts are very, very important. martha: the forensics and the built and how it went in will

become very important. but a big announcement on the part of judge nelson. bill: at 9:30 they will resume. you can watch this streaming live on our web site, foxnews.com. we, however, are a business and we have to have commercial breaks. that's what we are doing right now. back in two minutes. how long have i had my car insurance? i don't know, eight, ten years. i couldn't tell ya' but things were a lot less expensive back then. if you're 50 or over you should take a new look at your auto insurance. you may be overpaying. actually that makes a lot of sense. old policy. old rates. and thanks to your experience behind the wheel, you might save $350 by switching to the aarp auto insurance program from the hartford. plus, you'll get benefits that reward your driving record, like our promise that you won't be dropped. wait, you won't drop me, seriously? that's right, you won't be dropped.

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bill: breaking news from the george zimmerman trial. the issue is whether the jury is allowed to hear some of the courses he has take in the past and whether the jury is allowed to hear a job he once applied more the state of virginia. how is all of that relevant? so the job he applied for in prince william county, he wanted to be a police officer. what's that got to do with this

case in florida. >> nothing in my humble opinion. the golden rule of evidence is all relevant evidence is admissible unless otherwise excludable. only lawyers talk that way. bill: but in english it means you don't think this is relevant. >> it means the first test any evidence has to get past is the relevancy threshold. what is the prosecution's argument? no one is denying that thissify was part of the neighborhood watch group. they are not denying this encounter occurred. is the prosecution inferring to the jury that because someone wants to become a cop, there is something sinister about that? it has no relevancy in whether he was justified in using deadly force begins trayvon martin. bill: could it come back to malice? i'm not suggesting it does.

>> i think what they are trying to argue is somehow this goes to motive. but again i think that's awarpe. the idea that because you want to become a police officer your intent on hunting young black men walking through your neighborhood? the other golden rule of evidence, assuming it is prejudice, fit's more prejudicial and illuminating for the jury it goes out. i think the judge by allowing this in has created a wonderful appellate issue. bill: you are speak as a prosecutor. >> a former prosecutor. bill: but you have a case where you are going to go back through his class records and see whether he studied the stand your ground law in florida. >> i can't remember 80% of the

things i learned in college. base attended one class, it doesn't mean he absorbed it. even if it did, we all assumed ignorance of the laugh is not a defense. we are all assumed to know the law if he's aware of the stand your ground law even if he knows what it is and got an a plus in the course, how is this relevant whether he used justifiable force. bill: why do you think this judge allowed it to go through. >> judges get it wrong, that's why we have appellate courts. i don't know why she let it in. in this situation where someone is on trial facing a life sentence, the defense enjoys the presumption of innocence. the burden is on the government to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. where there is a jump ball a judge should always err on the side of the defense.

bill: we were listen together attorney foa both sides and the defense attorney was arguing if allow this to come in you have to allow trayvon martin's school record to be entered. she denied that request, at least for now. martha: the woman who has just been sworn in is the registrar for the seminole college and no doubt she is there to testify to the registration of george zimmerman and what classes he took and perhaps other details in terms of what some of that material or the curriculum was in those classes. so let's listen to some of this. >> is this something -- when would a person fill out a form like this? >> when they are ready to be awarded a degree from seminole state college. >> they fill this out to apply for a degree? >> yes.

>> tell me when this form was filled out and if you can tell when the degree was actually supposedly being to be conferred or being requested for. >> it looks like he applied for graduation during the term of the fall, fall commencement and he applied for october 17, 2011. >> that was when he submitted the application. does it tell us when he was requesting or thought he would have the degree? >> yes. he thought he would graduate by spring 2012. >> thank you, ma'am, no other questions.

>> defense? >> no questions. >> thank you, ma'am, you are excused. martha: that was a quick witness. she is won and done, no cross-examination. she was just there to establish that he registered for classes at seminole state college and she could verify those papers were in order. all of this goes to the issue we have been discussing with bradford cohen, and our attorneys with us this morning. did the contents of anything the george zimmerman studied demonstrate that he had a passion, a strong interest for law enforcement that perhaps he never had a chance to carry out? is that something that would have led him to want to be a neighborhood watchman, want to take an active role in promoting safety in his neighborhood. you can sort of piece together the line of the argument that the prosecution is hoping to create here. whether they will have any

success at that at all will be determined by mark o'mara who will try to bat that down every chance he gets. mark o'mara wanted to know why trayvon martin's path would not also be admissible. judge nelson said this is not a tit for tat situation. she determined the information about his education was relevant. as tom kinneck says relevancy has to be the first test to be passed to allow evidence into the courtroom. bill: this is scott terns. he works with the prince william county police in virginia. in 2009 george zimmerman applied for a job in virginia back in 2009. this will go along with the application to have a ride-around with sanford police

in florida the following year in 2010. >> would you be the person who would normally be the custodian of records? >> yes. >> how long does the prince william county police department keep the actual applications and records? >> in accordance with the virginia records retention act what we do is keep them for the mandated three years. after which time it's standard practice for to us destroy the records after that period. >> were you asked wet were you had any records as it relates to an application by the defendant george zimmerman? >> yes, sir. >> were you able to locate the actual application? >> no, sir, it was destroyed. >> i'll show you state exhibit 211. do you recognize this exhibit, sir? >> yes, sir. >> what is that? >> that's an extract. after we destroy -- you are

talking about the first document? after we destroy the records, after the period of 3 years, we create a cursory amount of information on the record that was to be destroyed, basic information, name, address, date aplayed, et cetera. and we send out a letter for those individuals that are not considered further into the process. we send them a dated letter with my name at the bottom regarding their status and they are not going to be considered further. >> what was the date of that letter? >> the date was july 8, 2009. >> now, lieutenant, i imagine you get a lot of people who apply. >> yes, sir. >> is there anything unusual or sinister about people not get the job as an officer? >> no. >> thank you.

no questions. bill: there was just a couple questions there. the professor has one or two questions from the school and no cross-examination. we'll see how this one goes. >> good earning, lieutenant kearns. your position in the police department is because you are a sworn police officer and have full privileges as such? >> that's correct, sir. >> are you currently serving in any kind of investigative capacity? >> no, sir. >> it mop -- it's more administrative? >> i changed assignments. i'm now with the watch commander for the western district evening squad. prior to that i was with the personnel bureau. use it' not uncommon within a police department to change hats from time to time. >> yes, sir. >> maybe patrol, maybe investigator, maybe behind the

desk. >> yes, sir. >> how long were you in the administrative position prior to your current assignment? >> 6 years. >> you were the administrator at the time mr. zimmerman applied? >> yes. >> do you have any -- you have no copy of this application, i take it. >> no, sir, it was destroyed. >> you couldn't tell me who he used as a reference on his application. >> no, sir. >> you don't have a personal memory of the contents of the application? >> no, sir. >> because you get a lot of them? >> yes, sir. >> a lot of people want to be police officers. >> yes, sir. >> as did you, obviously. >> i did. >> so if i understand the process, then, there is an application obviously, and then -- bill: we have to take a quick break. we'll see how he answers that question right after this.

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martha: the defense is questioning there scott kearns. they are going over the one remaining document that proves george zimmerman applied to become a police officer. one of the questions, do you remember him? no, i don't remember him because a lot of people want to become police officers. in an effort to try to minimize this event that it was not a big deal that he was'turned down for any purpose that anyone seems to remember or call. and that is what we have been watching. let, listen into a little bit of this. >> that would be a reason why you wouldn't be accepted as a police officer? >> that's the reason why we did not consider him further based on that record. >> it makes sense if you think about it, because a police officer who has credit problems would be vulnerable to

criminals, wouldn't they. >> possibly. >> they could be put in compromising situations where they may make a bad decision because of their financial concerns. >> yes, sir. >> so if somebody has bad credit, because of their age, and not having a clear established work history or any number of other reasons that shows up as bad credit he could be tab was in fact rejected. >> yes, sir. that would mean, i take it, when his credit got better where he was able to fully address that issue to the satisfaction of the department he could reapply. >> it's possible, sir. >> you know of people who applied once, been rejected, maybe applied again and ultimately got hired? >> yes, sir. >> may i have just a moment,

judge? thank you. >> any redirect? >> no, thank you. your honor. >> thank you very much. you are excused. please call your next witness.

>> do you solemnly swear the testimony you will present will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? >> i do. >> thank you. >> you may proceed. >> thank you, your honor. could you introduce yourself to the jury, tell us your name, rank, serial number. >> captain francisco carter, united states army assigned to first infantry division. united states officer jag corps. i'm basically a military prosecutor in the army. >> you are yet another lawyer. >> yes. >> do you also teach courses? >> i did at one point but not currently. >> would that have included back in the spring of 2010.

>> yes, i taught a course, yes. >> where did you teach that course? >> seminole state college. >> what was the name of that course? >> criminal investigation. >> do you remember the defendant being a student in that course? >> i do. >> do you remember what kind of grade you gave? >> i gave him an a. >> tell me a little bit about what type of course that was. >> when i got the book -- when i -- you know, got wind of the course, criminal litigation assumed i would be teaching it from a practical stand point. trial advocacy. but the way the course book was set up, it wasn't like that. and the time frame in which i had to teach the course i couldn't teach it from an advocacy standpoint. fit was like a crim procedure course. we talked about the law,

knowledge of the law. we talked about criminal procedure. the constitutional rights, 4th and 5th amendment. things of that nature. >> did you do a mock trial? >> not really, not in that course. we didn't have the time for it. again it just kind of focused on the elements of the crime would go through hypotheticals where we would ask the students certain questions regarding certain cases and things of that nature. >> you mentioned the course book. >> sure. >> i'm showing you -- is that the course book titled "criminal law and procedure?" >> yes. >> is this a su subsection, a sl section of this book? >> yes.

>> that's pertaining to what? >> self-defense. >> the second parts of state's exhibit 210 is what? >> it's a homework assignment from george. it was the first homework assignment that i gave to all the students. >> did the rest of it -- additional homework assignment? >> yes. >> exhibit 210 into evidence. >> are you moving the book or the excerpt. >> just the excerpt. >> exhibit 210. >> talk to me about what kind of student you remember the defendant to be. >> he always kind of remember

your smartest student, the one that stood out the most. the one that probably wasn't the best student. and he was probably one of the better students in the class. you mentioned and we talk about state's exhibit 210, an excerpt about self-defense. tell me what sort of things you addressed as it relates to the law of self-defense in florida. >> the way the book is comprised. the publishers are from florida. they didn't put florida-specific things but i wanted to teach the class from a practical standpoint where the students can relate and take something fritz and apply it to their own lives. with florida and other states they have what's called the stand your ground law which evolved from the castle doctrine through case law. >> did you cover that specifically? >> yes.

>> did you discuss specifically self-defense and stand your ground laws in connection with violent crimes such as murder? >> yes. >> did you address the particula -- thestrike that que. what can you tell us about how long you spent as part of that course covering ideas like self-defense? >> self-defense is an affirmative defense. >> it was something i constantly icon -- iconstantly iterates.

i gave a review for the test and eight was something i think the students really wanted to know about. it was so practical that it was -- they were have much engaged in class discussion regarding the issue. so i remember talking about it quite a few times not just on one particular occasion.

martha: all right. we are back, and on the stand right now is captain alexis carter, he is a jag attorney, and he taught a course in

criminal justice only for one semester, and george zimmerman was in his class. they just greeted each other, when he was another to identify if george zimmerman was, indeed, the george zimmerman in his class, he said, yes. he got an a in his class, and he did talk about stand your ground in that class. let's listen in. >> one or two that may have significance? is. >> well, no. all facts have significance. there's certain things that, you know, through class law have been seen to give more weight. >> sure. the totality of the circumstances is you look at the sum until of the evidence -- total of the evidence, i take it, and then also apply common sense. >> >> right, right. a reasonable person's standard is what that's generally referred to. >> in fact, interestingly, it's the reasonable person standard or the reasonable belief standard which squarely is part of self-defense. >> that -- yes. you can say.

>> and we'll talk about that more in a minute. but, um, the work that you're doing now -- >> yes. >> -- are you prosecuting or defending? >> prosecuting. >> just prosecuting? >> just prosecuting. >> do you have the opportunity to defend? >> no, i do not -- not right now in the position that i am. but the way the jag corps is set up, they put you in a certain position, and throughout your career you move on to different things. before being a military prosecutor, i dealt with administrative law, federal regulations, interpreting of regulations, giving legal reviews, things of that nature. so as you progress, they move you on almost like a little circuit. >> so that would include defending at some point perhaps. >> possibly, if i chose it. you know, the army sometimes cares about what you want and then sometimes it's just the need of the army. so wherever you're best suited, your skill set, and wherever they need you is where they're going to put you.

>> uh-huh. is this your career? >> i'd rather not comment on that right now. [laughter] >> fair enough. let's, let's go back, though, a little bit to the class that you taught. >> yes. >> you commented that the course book that you used -- first of all, you didn't write the book in. >> no, i did not. >> it was a book that was suggested or -- >> suggested. i think the previous professor used that book, and when i spoke with the director of the legal department, they said, hey, this is the book that we normally use, you know, take a look at it. it seemed pretty straightforward, standard book that you would see in a criminal course. >> but it was not florida law. >> no, not specifically. i think they probably maybe reference majority/minority of states, but i don't think they

ever probably talked about florida specifically in that book. >> i was looking for the other exhibits -- >> well, i have them. >> let me take a look. >> sure. >> so the textbook that you used -- >> sure. >> -- was not specifically focused on florida law as much as it was sort of a general discussion of a great many topics within this broad subject of criminal litigation and procedure? >> yeah. but then, you know, i tried to supplement that with other materials and things of that nature, discussion to focus them on florida distinction, because i felt it was important, you know? even with respect to other criminal procedures and things of that nature, i felt giving the students some sort of focus, concentration on florida law was

important, so i did that. >> so, for example, in part of exhibit 210, this is an excerpt from the book that says "self-defense." and i'll have you just -- >> sure. >> -- take a look. this isn't a specific discussion of florida's self-defense statutes or what has been characterized as stand your ground? >> negative. >> so that's true, it's not. >> yes, that's true. it is not. >> okay. so your discussions then that would be more focused on the laws in many florida would have been in the class? >> yes. >> not in the textbook. >> correct. >> okay.

[background sounds] >> as a member of the florida bar then, you took the bar exam -- >> yeah. >> -- and had to learn florida law in addition to the more broad general principles? >> yes. >> so you had an understanding of florida law as it relates to self-defense specifically because of the florida statutes? >> yes. >> a, just for the jury's benefit, a statute is a law that's been passed by the legislature and -- >> codified. >> -- codified. >> right. >> so when we say a statute, that's what's written in the law book. >> yes. martha: all right, we're going to just slip in here for a moment. they're going through statutes and some of the curriculum of the class he taught. bradford cohen is watching this with us, he's the florida defense attorneyment bradford, what are they trying to establish here?

>> well, the defense is going through just like kind of just going through the motions here. what i would have done with this witness is they've already opened the door about stand your ground and self-defense. this guy's a professor or a teacher. why not teach the jury through him what stand your ground is and what self-defense is? the prosecution will object and say that those, that should come from the judge. but what's relevant is, okay, so what did you teach zimmerman? tell me what you taught him about stand your ground, tell him what you taught him about self-defense and what it means -- martha: very interesting. >> that's how you use this guy against the prosecution. martha: yeah. that is a very interesting tack that they are not taking thus far. >> no, they're not. martha: basically, it seems that the defense is trying to establish that this was just one element of a larger course, that this particular teacher was not a specialist in florida law, um, and that all of this, you know, doesn't really mean a whole lot in terms of state of mind,

correct? >> yeah, yeah, correct. but not very effective. like i said, the route to use this guy is to teach the jury what stand your ground -- >> they may be listening to you, because they're talking a little bit more about stand your ground. let's dip in and see, bradford. >> is the word codification the codification of the castle doctrine became florida's stand your ground law insofar as the use of self-defense? >> you can say that, yes. >> the castle doctrine is the notion that if you are in your castle, in your home and you are attacked, you have no duty to retreat even if you can. you have no duty to retreat. you may meet the force with force to defend yourself. >> yes. >> am i right generally on that? >> yes. >> and then by, by the evolution of that doctrine into what's

been generally characterized as stand your ground, what it did, basically, was allow someone to defend themselves outside their home if they are attacked. >> are correct. >> without the duty to retreat. >> correct. >> before that, before that if you were in your home and you were attacked, before you could use deadly force you had to retreat if you could. >> where yes. >> if you safely could. so, in other words, if there's an attack outside, you have to sort of assess the situation, decide -- >> [inaudible] >> let me hear the rest of the question, then you may approach. >> >> under the old law with the duty to retreat, if you weren't

inside your home and you were attacked, you would have to assess the situation and make a decision at that moment whether or not you could safely get away before resorting to force? >> yes. >> you may approach. martha: all right. the lawyers are approaching to go over the question. now we're into exactly what bradford cohen was talking about moments ago, the description of what stand your ground law means and how did this captain in his capacity as a teacher in a criminal justice course in which he taught george zimmerman, how did he teach him this law. and in doing that, they're going over what the law is and how it changed over the years, that it originally was if you were attacked with deadly force in your own home, you were legally allowed to return deadly force in order to save your own life. then there was a new premise

with that that altered the law which allowed you to carry that outside of the home, that it would become part of your being, that you would carry your home with you, and if you felt that you were being treated with deadly force, that your life was in danger or that you had reason to believe your life was in danger, that that stand your ground law came with you out into the open as well. so whether or not that question, the way it was phrased, will be allowed is being discussed with the judge right now. how that's going to go, we don't know at this point. bill: so carter is on there, and he was asked ab he remembers george zimmerman. and he said you always remember the smartest ones. and he was probably one of the better students in the class. and you wonder how that's interpreted by jurors who are saying, well, he was a good student, so he listened, he paid attention, and this is something that he had a passion for, at least at a minimum he had an interest in learning. asked about stand your ground law, did you cover that specifically, yes. self-defense law and murder,

yes. self-defense, it was something the students really wanted to know about because it was practical, and they were very much engaged. martha: and we're told that they were taking copious notes during this period, the jury. and on that note, we'll be right back. ♪

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this is the reason why. take advantage s. starting at $49 installed. hurry. offer ends july 8th. adt. always there. bill: back inside the courtroom, the topic is stand your ground. this is don west, defense attorney for george zimmerman. >> he made his answers to these questions are based upon his personal knowledge in his profession or as to what he taught the class. can you make that distinction? >> say again, ma'am? >> whether or not your answers to these questions are based upon your knowledge as an attorney in your practice, or are they also something that you taught the class? >> the evolution of the castle doctrine? >> that's the question. >> yeah. that would be something that i hit on in the class. >> then you may proceed. objection overruled. >> so the, what that means,

basically, is that when you were at the castle doctrine, when you're in your home and you're attacked, you don't have to worry about whether you can get away. you may meet force with force. >> which right. >> sort of. and then what happened when the statutes changed a few years ago into this what's been known as stand your ground, basically the castle doctrine of no duty to retreat was simply authorized in locations other than your own home. >> be -- right. i think what happened is the presumption changed. if you're, if you're attacked in your home, there's a presumption that you're in fear of your life. a lot of times attacks happen at night, you're scared, you're either woken up by something, so there was a presumption that you

were in fear of your life. so that's, that's how that came about x. then it extended outside of the home. but there's, there wasn't that same presumption, same presumption doesn't exist outside of the home. it's dwelling, residence, i think your vehicle is where that presumption is. but outside of the home there wasn't that same sort of presumption. i hope that makes sense. >> well, i know you're taking us to school, so -- [laughter] let me clarify a couple of things. you're suggesting that when it occurs in certain, when the attack occurs in certain locations, in addition is there no duty to retreat, but is there sort of a presumption that if it happens that you are, will be in fear for your life? >> >> so, yes. if you're in your home, that's in your home there's a greater

indicia that that person had a reasonable fear of death or grievous bodily harm. >> okay. but if you're in your home and you -- i don't want to go too far from why you're here testifying today, but i want to clarify, though, that part of self-defense is you under any circumstance the reasonable belief that you have to act to avoid imminent great bodily harm. >> oh, yes. no question to that. >> there's an objection. >> i'm sorry. >> objection is the framing of the question is counsel's version of the law. >> i'm going to sustain the objection and state to the jury at the end of the conclusion of the evidence of this case, the court will give you instructions on the law that you are to

follow and apply to the facts as you find them. your questioning needs to be as to what he taught the class, um, not a general discussion op what the law is. -- on what the law is. >> yes, ma'am, thank you. so when you taught the class, what is the core concept of self-defense when you can use deadly force? >> when you have a reasonable apprehension of death or grievous bodily harm. and the term "reasonable" obviously has two components. so there's a subjective component meaning that i feel like i'm in fear. in my mind, i feel like i'm in fear of death or grievous bodily harm. but when stuff hits the fan, you're judged by jurors, and your actions have to meet a reasonable standard objectively. so whether or not a reasonable person in your position would

have felt the way you felt. >> all right. so what you would explain then to anybody that was there that day would be that on the issue of the reasonable fear, it's both subjective and objective. the subjective part is crawling inside the perp's head -- the person's head to see what they were thinking and would it be reasonable to them that they would fear for their life? >> right. and that's why the totality of the circumstances are important. >> uh-huh. >> for example, if you approached me right now in broad daylight, whatever the case is, i probably wouldn't have that much fear. but, you know, the lights are out, i don't know what's happening, i feel someone grab me, those are circumstances you need to consider in the whether or not someone had a reasonable apprehension of fear. >> so the first part then is trying to understand as best you

can from the totality of the circumstances whether that person was in fear in their own mind. did they think that serious bodily harm was about to happen. >> right. >> and then you're saying, then there's a bit of a shift. and then in order to see if that's reasonable, then the trier of fact, if you will, the jury then looks at this idea. does it make sense that somebody in that person's situation with all of the circumstances would fear that they were facing imminent great bodily harm? >> that is correct. >> okay. nowhere in the discussion of self-defense is it required that the person being attacked actually be injured. it's really the issue of what they think is going to happen, not what's actually happened, is

that right? >> i'm going to object again. >> okay. the court will instruct the jury on what the law is at the end of the case, and that is the law that you are to apply to the facts as you find them. your discussion today is limited to what you have taught -- bill: so how do you define then the state law, stand your ground? martha: very interesting. bill: looks like that'll come in jury instruction several days, if not weeks from now. listen, there's a lot of news going on with regard to cairo and egypt and also the new decision by the administration on obamacare, so we're going to get to all that and a lot more, and if there are headlines from this case, you will hear them here in "america's newsroom."

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how people are reacting to that. martha: a big story today. absolutely. we want to take you to this. because defense attorney don west is now, some might say,

twisting this situation in discussion with this witness to sort of serve as a defense witness as well. they are going through details about the stand your ground law essentially saying that even if you're not injured at all you could be believing that you're about to be killed and it could be justified. that's the argument here. let's listen in. >> even though under the hypothetical i may have started it? >> yes. >> so in that situation i would be trying to figure out what is going on, how far are you going to go? >> yes. >> how much danger am i really in? >> yes. >> and under that scenario would it be reasonable that if i were screaming for help and you didn't stopover a period of ten, 20, 30 seconds, that i screamed for help making it clear i wanted no part of this this.

this. then i would have an appreciation that you weren't going to stop. >> i'll object to the continuing line of questioning and the nonspecificity. >> sustained. >> without the specific details that i'm talking about, that's what you're talking about in a sense that it really doesn't matter -- the focus of the self-defense is at the point that the force is used, and it's only really a relatively minor consideration as to what actually started it? >> objection, again as to counsel positing things. >> if you will rephrase your question because you began it with the former hypothetical that the court sustained, so if you'll rephrase your question, please. >> i will. i'll try. thank you. when you're talking about what you call the imperfect self-defense, what you're really talking about is when you're involved in a situation where somebody, even if you start it, but the tables get turned and

all of a sudden you're the one that is being attacked with far more force than you used. >> that's the scenario i'm talking about. >> let me repeat what you're asking. so, basically in a sense if someone initially feels that they were being threatened, and they countered that threat with the force that was disproportionate to the force that was directed towards them -- >> right. >> yes that would be imperfect self-defense claim, or imperfect self-defense scenario. >> even under that scenario the person that may have started it with some lower level of force and the table turns on them and there is a great level of force, a disproportionate level of force,ht to defend themselves? >> right. >> objection, again we're continuing number one the same hypothetical, number two, too

specific. >> i'm going to overrule on that one and the answer was given. >> i didn't hear the answer. could it be read back? you agreed? >> yes. martha: trying to establish here whether or not the stand your ground law was employed by george zimmerman and whether or not was done so legally. interesting considering the fact that this is one of the state's witnesses and the judge has allowed quite a bit of leeway in terms of interpretation of laying out that law, and the state attorney is not too happy about the way this is going. we will take a very quick break. we'll be right back with more here and egypt and washington. let's play:

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groups this is how they've done it all along. they've done this with the unions, they tkpaeuf them exemptions and waivers. they done it in small businesses. martha: we've heard from kathleen ka beale just it will be a lot more complicated than we thought. let's look at a poll that may tell us why they decided to do this. how does obama care make you feel about your healthcare in the future. 66% says that it makes them worried. that number is up considerably in the course of the last year and let's face it, democrats do not want this in their way when they go out to campaign for the midterm elections. >> it may or may not be true. whether that is behind the delay is a matter of speculation.

>> that is the reason it was delayed, not because of a political calculation. it was because the attempts to get in the way of implementation by the conservatives who didn't want it implemented is what is delaying it. martha: would you concede that it's helpful for democrats? >> i think there could be a political advantage for it but that may not be the motivation nor having it done in the first place. martha: even if you take what alan is saying as truth that it wasn't politically manipulative to do it now it may have been simply impossible to implement it at this point, tony, which goes to the issue of how huge this bill is and you're going 0 to love it when you find out what is in it as nancy pelosi says. maybe they can't physically get it up off the ground. >> exactly right. alan is making a point that would have validity if they took it into consideration when writing the law. the obama administration made clear that both the mandate for individuals and businesses were essential to implement obama care, and as they are running

into the political opposition, particularly because in a divided country we are still very united according to a recent gallup poll which shows overwhelming opposition to obama care, over 55%. we are united against this law. the democrats don't want to make a mistake like they made in 2010 to assume obama care will not be a variable in the election cycle. we know it's dysfunctional. martha: thank you very much, tony and alan. we'll see you soon. bill: watching the zimmerman deal, the judge just had a recess, so that is why you see the great state of florida, the seal on your camera there. 11:00am they'll resume. still a possibility that trayvon martin's parents could testify. they've been in court every day. at some point that will happen we do believe, whether it's today or not we shall see. in 21 minutes you're at a deadline in cairo,egypt. what this could mean for the united states if mohammed morsi

doesn't resign or give in the protestors. it could put us in a very difficult position. on the streets of cairo our coverage continues.

is not resigning. the military has begun moving some of its troops and soldiers into key egyptian government areas, including the state tv. we are expecting some type of statement by the military, whether it's by print or over the television, the air waves here in the next few minutes. things are definitely getting more tense here as the anticipation builds for the deadline. bill: over your right shoulder we can see the crowd that has amassed in the square behind you. connor, thank you. standby in cairo. there were 18 days of massive protests in january of 2011 that ended president hosni mubarak's nearly thee decades in power.

june 24, 2012 muslim brotherhood candidate mohammed morsi became the president after a divided election, but an election nonetheless that was held in egypt. june 25th of this year hundreds of thousands back in the streets yet again protesting morey on the two-year anniversary of the beginning of the original revolt. rick granell is with me now served as a spokesman for the last two ambassadors. welcome to you there in los angeles. it is my feeling that people in cairo believe that mohammed morsi is going to walk out of there in ten or 15 minutes. that does not appear to be the case. if that is true, what happens? >> i think you're right. i think that the people have faith that the military leaders are going to take over and be in control, and the one thing that they have going for them is history. we have seen throughout history that the egyptian military is in control, and they are great caretakers to make sure that there is a stable egypt.

and they have demonstrated recently they recognize that changes need to be made, and so it remains to be seen how aggressive the egyptian military will be, but clearly the people recognize that the egyptian military historically has been on their side and they have faith that they will again step in. this is a rejection of the islamists, let's make it very clear. the muslim brotherhood and the islamists are being rejected by the people. you have president mohammed morsi who has not offered one single economic or political reform measure, and the people are really tired of this. this is about economics as it was in the beginning and then the muslim brotherhood hijacked it. bill: that may be all true, rick, but when mohammed morsi comes out last night ann says forget about it, i'm going to die in office, i'm going to fight for this job. there is resistance that he is showing. and when the people realize that mohammed morsi is not going anywhere you wonder how many

more people will die in the streets of cairo and alexandria before this is resolved. >> well, you know, mohammed morsi's inc inch tran gent. we have to put part of the blame on the obama administration why he thinks he needs to be here. we have an administration that from the beginning that has stood by his side and said our aid to you, sir is unconditional. we have five u.s. senators offering amendments to make our aid conditional. secretary of state hillary clinton when she was secretary of state goes to cairo and unequivocally tells mohammed morsi, our ailed is no aid is not conditional. we will give us aid no matter what. what kind much message does that send to the muslim brotherhood leader of egypt? that he gets to ignore the political opposition and do what he wants because the united

states' aid is unconditional. this has been a problem that the obama administration has had from the beginning. bill: do we have any sway at this point for what's happening, the conditions on the ground in that country? >> well, unfortunately right now it's a dangerous situation and we have to just call for calm. but we've missed the opportunity, like we did in syria, like we did in other places, and i think we better be watching turkey in the same way. the united states has to lead. we have to actually get out front and do something, we can't sit back and watch these things unfold, then you get a islamist government that is toppled a year later. bill: it is 10:49 here in new york. thank you so much. in los angeles watching events unfold from california. mohammed morsi is watching events unfold before his very eyes because you're 11 minutes away from a deadline. martha: incredible scene in cairo. we'll stay on top of it. we are winding down to the final moments of the battle of

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today. how they do that, when they do that, and how much confrontation you have in the streets is something that we and well the people of egypt and the world wait to see. martha: it's a very tricky situation as outsiders politically, because you support the democratic process in general around the globe, and in this case the democratic process, these people in the streets would argue, has been twisted to meet its own means, that the muslim brotherhood has done a terrible job of governing the country, that the economy is in very tough shape, that they have gas shortages, and food shortages. they asked to have elections moved to be earlier, they were not receptive to that, the muslim brotherhood government. it is a rejection of a muslim brotherhood president who was democratically elect eld. one of the big questions of the people in these streets is where does america stand? do they stand with us or do they stand with the mohammed morsi government? that is one of the central questions for us here at home.

bill: you mentioned the economy, gas is more expensive. there are fewer jobs, the gdp has plummeted. egypt survives on tourism, people coming from europe or asia or come from the united states and they visit the the pyramid, down the nile, the luxor, and they spend money. and so many egyptians rely on that money. tourism has tried up. they are not going there any more because of the instability the world has watched for two and a half years. you need to change that before you get a strong foundation yet again for the people of egypt. martha: so far this has been a student-led, youth haoeufp led protest that has spilled into alexandria and other cities around egypt. the question is what happens if this deadline is passed? does it remain the kind of enthusiastic youth-driven protest that we've seen in social media or devolve into something violent and something different? that is something we'll watch play out over the course of the next few days. bill: 23 people killed

yesterday. back in a moment. (girl) what does that say? (guy) dive shop. (girl) diving lessons. (guy) we should totally do that. (girl ) yeah, right. (guy) i wannna catch a falcon! (girl) we should do that. (guy) i caught a falcon. (guy) you could eat a bug. let's do that. (guy) you know you're eating a bug. (girl) because of the legs. (guy vo) we got a subaru to take us new places. (girl) yeah, it's a hot spring.

martha: less than two minutes away from a deadline on president mohammed morsi. he has been asked to step down. the military has said that they will dig in their heels. he has said that he will die before he will give up his job, and listen to the sounds of this crowd in tahrir square in ti cairo. bill: their stoc stock exchange is after 311% since the election. fooled prices up. the tours and revenues down by 40%. that is a drop and a half in one year's time alone. [chanting] martha: we watched hosni mubarak be over thorn in much the same way. they had their first democratically held election.

the winner was mohammed morsi from the muslim brotherhood. and the people are rising up, they wanted a new election, but now they want him to go. what will happen one minute from now? bill: remember this scene on the fourth of july tomorrow, folks. we've got to run. bye-bye. >> egypt is where we start today, back to that picture and many more. the deadline set by the military just reached. as we know it as of now president mohammed morsi is staying, and he's resolving to try to figure out what to do with this nation that is in political crisis. he was given 48 hours to figure out some sort of a plan, or the military said they would move in, they would help find their own solution. we'll try to figure out what that really means in the next few moments. mohammed morsi is now refusing to step down despite the millions of egyptians in the streets calling on him to leave, both mohammed morsi annie egypt's armyem