feelin' good! feelin' real good! [ engine revs ] boat protection people love. now, that's progressive. call or click today. thank you so much. have a great night. > can she? >> no, you can't. >> women lag behind what member get paid for the same work. >> women do get paid less than men. >> it's time to close that gap. >> should government force it closed? >> empower women. >> government tries to force equality. >> the mat was yanked when the university cut the wrestling program. >> but is forcing equality fair? aren't there differences between boys and girls? the battle of the sexes. >> had enough? >> that's our show tonight.

[ applause ] >> men do get paid more than women, significantly more. and america today on average, for every buck a man makes, women earn just 77 cents. >> but one thing just about every single job in america has in common, dudes get paid more for doing it. >> yipee. no, i shouldn't say that. it's not fair if we dudes get paid more. i have a daughter. i want her to be paid what she's worth. but do we do the same jobs? are women really discriminated against? tonight, we separated our studio audience. men on this side.

women over here. as they came in, we asked the people with jobs to anonymously write down how much they made. then we averaged the salaries. for the women, the average turned out to be $66,000. for the men, $79,000. but that means for every dollar the men make, the women only made 83 cents. now, that's more than the national average of 77 cents. so good for you. but the difference ticks people off, and it was a campaign issue last election. >> president obama knows that women being paid 77 cents on the dollar for doing the same work as men isn't just unfair, it hurts families. >> it's time to close that gap. >> what horrible discrimination! to the author of "cult of power, sex discrimination in corporate america." martha, this gap is because of discrimination?

>> not all of it, but a good portion of it is, absolutely because of discrimination. >> why would the employer -- they're all sexist? why would they discriminate? >> some of them don't really pay enough attention to who they're paying what, so they don't really realize that maybe front line management is making decisions that are not in the best interest of women. some of them just think they can get away with it, and that goes back to the early 20th century when people paid women less because they were women and said so out loud. >> but you're saying that's 100 years ago. you're saying that's still going on today? >> i'm saying we still live in the legacy of it, absolutely. otherwise, why would take two jobs like school cafeteria worker and school custodian.

why would those not be paid the same because they're the skill level, same entry level type job. yet the custodians make more, because they're predominantly mail. the cafeteria ladies are just that, female, and that job pays less. the same is true with parole officers and social workers. essentially the same kind of work, but parole officers make more money because they are predominantly male. >> warren farrell once agreed with what martha said. here's a picture of him with gloria steinem when he was a young hippie. he was even on the activist group n.o.w. then he dug deeper into the data and changed his mind. warren, you decided it's not

discrimination? >> what i came to understand is the pay gap is not about men and women, it's about mothers and fathers. there's 25 different work life choices that men and women make. every single one of men's choices lead to men earning on average more money. all women's choices leads them to having a more balanced life, which usually ends up being a happier life. >> you say women are smarter than men. >> we knew that, john. >> because the man is more willing to travel, sacrifice his family life for work. women are more grounded and well rounded. >> yeah. people pay for what they need. and men go into the h jobs likely to pay more, given the amount of education they have. they're more likely to work extra weekends. >> martha, what do you say about that? >> i think mr. farrell's data are bogus.

everybody agrees that even in female dominated jobs like nursing and teaching, men make more. i just read a study before i came on the air by the american bar association, there is a huge gender pay gap. >> warren, the nurses are getting ripped off. >> nurses might be, but it helps to know that a nurse anaesthesiaist earns $150,000 a year. >> you're saying girls are dumb and they could make more money and they foolishly choose art history not knowing it will pay less? >> if they are taught only about discrimination and not how unlikely they are to get a job if they're a art major and they only care about fulfillment,

they have to teach our children tradeoffs. when you do studies of women business owners, women business owners who have mbas make only 49% of what males make. but we ask what do you want and the women business owners want flexibility, i want to be close to home. >> martha, what about that? you women are smarter and make better life choices. you don't work yourself to death. >> mr. farrell said that motherhood is punished because that's a choice women make. he's got a point, but he didn't tell us the other half. that is being a father and being married actually helps men in the workplace. it punishes women. we have a lot of data that shows that the employer works at that woman, even if he's not married

yet, and thinks of her as a potential mother. maybe i better not hire her or pay quite as much. certainly don't want to promote her because she might get pregnant and drop out of the workforce. >> well, she might. is the employer foolish to worry about that? >> that's because the culture in our society punishes women for being mothers. there's no organized child care, for example. >> when women make about $100,000 or so a year, they ask a different set of questions. many say what do i want out of life? do i want to make $200,000 a year or more personal time, more time with my children, more time at the gym, more spiritual time, more time with my spouse? and women are more likely to say i want a balanced life. so they don't go to the highest level because they're not stupid. >> are you saying they're making a choice? warren, thank you. martha, thank you. we won't solve this here. recently cheryl sandberg, the

chief operating officer of facebook got attention for saying things like this. >> just a couple weeks ago at facebook, we hosted a very senior government official and he had two women traveling with him who were senior in his department and i said, come on, sit at the table and they sat on the side of the room. >> some feminists were angry. sandberg puts the feminist movement at risk. one leftist saying women are victims of men and corporations saying sexist society holds women back, not the way women act. does she have a point? yes, says sabrina shaffer of the independent women's forum. take it away. >> i thought sandberg offered a thoughtful assessment of women

in the workplace. she did not offer public policy prescriptions. she just gave nuts and bolts suggestions to women who have strong career path aspirations and said here are some real things that you can do to better yourself. >> women need to be told to sake a seat at the table if they want to advance? >> yes. sandberg picks up on some sensitive gender differences. the more we can recognize and accept the differences, the better we are. women don't negotiate their salaries. my brother said he negotiated every salary they have. >> women are timid? not the women i know. >> there may be ways we're not thinking about asserting ourselves in the workplace that we could do more of. >> where were women on the left so angry about the book? >> they realize now that a lot of the battles that they're fighting have been won. women are outpacing men

professionally and educationally. there's a big sigh. >> and you live longer than we do. you're getting all the breaks. >> i know. i agree with some of the feminists, sandberg is a little out of touch. only 23% of women said they would prefer to work full time, let alone sort of a ceo quality of life that cheryl sandberg is living. if you ask most women, most women want a balance. >> they're making a choice. did you make a choice? are you earning less because you made a choice? wow, major nods there. thank you, sabrina. [ applause ] coming up, is it true that women can do anything men can do? ♪ anything you can do i can do

better, i can do anything better than you ♪ ♪ no you can't yes, i can ♪

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first, i want to poll the audience. how many of you love sports? [ applause ] slightly more men. let's narrow it down. how many of you played a sport this month? hands up. all right. more guys. i think that's typical. when it comes to sports, men and women i think are different. not all of you, but most of you. this to me is common sense. but to say that is not politically correct, and it's utterly unacceptable in washington, d.c. where politicians passed a law called title nine, which says no person can, on the basis of sex, with subjected to discrimination under any education program. that sounds good. discrimination isn't something we like. and the vice president says title nine changed civilization.

>> empower, empower, empower women. >> okay. shawn latta is the former president of the national association of girls and women in sport. title nine changed civilization? >> yes, i would agree. >> but wasn't civilization already changing? >> yes. maybe i would rephrase it and say it's had a huge impact on society today. >> so you were an athlete as a child. i have this picture of you here, and you wanted to play soccer. there were no girls teams. you ended up on a boy's team, the only girl? >> right. >> by college age at penn state, there were some girl teams. >> yes, but the team i played on, the soccer team was still club status. so we wanted to be a varsity team and get the recognition and

support, and at the time, penn state did not support women's soccer. so we filed a title nine complaint so that we would have equal opportunity. >> did it have to be a law? i would argue that people were just waking up to what women could do at the time, and this would have happened any way if women wanted to play sports, universities who wanted the customers would have accommodated them. >> it would have happened very, very, very slowly. i think -- >> where wouldn't the university want to get these women? >> to provide equal opportunity in activities, in athletics, it costs money. and title nine really forced educational institutions to make sure that both our sons and daughters have equal opportunity. >> now, equal opportunity would suggest that women want to play sports just as much as men. you say they do? you do? >> i do.

>> well, you do, but on average, women often have other interests. i see it with the little kids, the girls talk, the boys want to run around and smash into each other. aren't we different? >> i think we each have uniqueness. i think title nine really pushes the issue that regardless if it's athletics, if it's drama, if it's the band, that whether you're man or woman, you should have the opportunity to participate in that activity. >> i keep hearing about unhappy news for boys, and about title nine leading colleges to eliminate some men's sports teams. >> the mat was yanked out last summer when the university cut the wrestling program over title nine. >> they no longer have a swim team, one of ten teams the school is cutting. >> indoor track is the most dropped men's teams. isn't this sort of bad for the

guys? >> unfortunately, the powers to be, athletic director have chosen to make the decision to cut men's so-called minor sports because there isn't an endless pool of money. by cutting some of those minor men's sports, then a college and university has some money that they can support women's athletics. >> division i gymnastics fell from 107 teams in the '80s to the 70s today. should there be lawsuits that say you need equal numbers in dance and cheer leading. girls like to do that. we're different. >> i think that's debatable. >> academic clubs, hobby clubs, more women than men. cheer leading, music programs,

26% versus 16%. different interests. well, again, that's the debate. how do you determine interest? >> this had to be forced? i would think the culture just changed. when i was a kid, my school was all men. we complained and princeton voluntarily admitted women. culture was changing. once it was tabu for women to smoke and wear trousers in public, to go to a bar alone. this changed because the culture changes. we don't need your stupid law! >> you do. you need the law. [ applause ] >> all right. the audience is with me. >> we need the law. we would have been waiting hundreds and hundreds of years. we would have been waiting forever. >> hundreds of years? >> yeah. a lot of times what happens is a

law has to pass and social acceptance don't change for quite a while after the law is passed. >> stick around. you'll have a chance to take questions from the audience next. >> i look forward to it. >> as we consider the battle of the sexes, does something in boy's and girl's brain make them do things like this? the girls cared more about playing with each other, talking, cooperating. >> you can be the princess. coo. .

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[ applause ] biological differences between men and women? outside of sex organs that is? when i was in college, i was taught it's unacceptable to say that. professors taught me men and women are biologically the same,

and it's only because of sexist society, parents and peers encourages boys to play with guns, girls to play with dolls that causes boys and girls to behave differently. if we just stop doing that, there would soon be equal numbers of female racecar drivers and male ballet dancers. and i believed that, until i had children and woke up and then did a report on abc news that got me into trouble. i said boys and girls are just not the same. we treated them the same. but they were just so different. i don't just mean my kids. you would see it in their friends, too. the girls were, well, more civilized. they would look you in the eye, talk to you. they cared about your feelings. the boys -- >> bang! >> the boys wanted to go to war.

>> bang, bang. >> the girls cared more about playing with each other, talking, cooperating. >> you'll be the princess. >> there were plenty of exceptions, but the pattern was clear. no matter how sex neutral we try to be, it seemed obvious to me that instincts are different. and the author of "the power of the female brain" agrees with that. that's dr. daniel amin. you conducted the biggest brain study ever done, 46,000 brain scans, and found what? >> female brains were dramatically more active, in about 85% of the brain. women are really wired for leadership. and if you look at the homes, and you look at organizations like churches, they're often the leaders. and if it wasn't for this thing

called children that derails their careers, they really make great ceos. women in our studies, and i point this out in the book, they're better with things like empathy, intuition, collaboration, self-control. in fact, women go to jail 14 times less than males. and what women people wouldn't think of as a strength that i think is a strength is they have appropriate worry. the don't worry, be happy people, more often men on motorcycles, die the earliest from accidents or preventable illnesses. >> this is just wired into our brains? this is not about parenting? >> it's wired into your brain. when little boys are exposed to testosterone and girls aren't, there's reshaping or remodeling

that happens and it happens very early inside your mother's womb. >> at conception, we begin as the same clump of cells except for the y chrome zone, which we guys have. that causes hormones to be added to the clump of cells and they make men's brains different? >> right. so whether you have the y chrome zone or not, the level of testosterone you had in utero begins to shape your brain in a certain way. >> and changes you forever? >> well, it certainly makes a big difference. what's interesting is that if women take testosterone, and that's happening more and more, that if they take too much, they begin to think like a guy. they always think about sex, they have less empathy, and it can cause some trouble.

>> they ride motorcycles. i want to poll any audience here. how many of you have a good sense of direction? more guys i'm seeing raising their hand than women. and that's my experience. look at these two experiments i reported on. this first one was done at the university of rochester. students are blind folded and walked through the maze of tunnels that run underneath the campus. experimenters guide them with a tap on the shoulder so they don't run into anybody. when the women are asked where a college building is, they're not so sure. >> that way. >> men, however, retained a sense of what direction they had moved. >> go through the next doors, take a left, then a right. then a left. >> in another experiment, this one at york university in toronto, students were asked to

wait in a cluttered room while an experimenter got something ready. what the student didn't know is waiting was the whole experiment, because they were then asked this. >> tell me every object in that room that you can remember. >> women give answers like this. >> on the right hand side was a briefcase with your initials at the top. then there was an aam 40 button. there was envelopes. >> and the women would go on and on and on. and the men would say like, i don't know, there was some stuff. so dr. amen, this is a biological difference? >> no question. in fact, the memory centers of the brain, it's called the h hipcampus, significantly more

active in the women than the brain, which is why she remembers the first kiss and every time your mother was rude to them. when women get an emotional memory, they have trouble letting it go. and often remember things you wish they would have forgotten. >> i remember my first kiss. it just reminds me of what happened to lawrence summer, president of harvard, where he dared say maybe, just maybe a reason that women don't dominate the way men do in the sciences might be biological. and he got drummed out of harvard just for saying that. >> well, he did, but i think it was the wrong message, that they weren't perhaps as good or as competent. their brains in that particular area of the brain are just as strong. but they're more biased to

relationship issues. so they're more likely to go into professions where they want to interact with people. >> interesting. thank you, dr. amen. when we return, how young reporter john stossel was totally clueless, in general, at coed school, the boys get the better deal. they think, and if they are wrong, they don't [ male announcer ] if you had a dollar, for every dollar car insurance companies say they'll save you by switching, you'd have like, a ton of dollars. but how're they saving you those dollars? a lot of companies might answer "um" or "no comment." then there's esurance. born online, raised by technology and majors in efficiency. so whatever they save, you save. hassle, time, paperwork, hair-tearing out, and yes, especially dollars. esurance. now backed by allstate.

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[ applause ] as our battle of the sexes continues, let's focus on school. i want to ask the audience, how many of you liked school? i see more hands on the women's

side, and that was my experience. i hated school. when my kids were born, the message was that school is unfair to girls. that parents should consider all-girls schools because boys are so loud and dominant in classrooms. and that is what i found when i read a book to a choose of first graders. look what happened. this boy comes from the back of the class. to make a point. soon, there are three boys in my face, commenting on the book. the girls stay seated. who gets the most attention in class, boys or girls? >> boys. >> why boys? >> because they talk more than the girls. the girls don't really get called on too much. >> they have so much energy and

they're never actually that quiet. >> this girl had a theory as to why boys are quicker to raise their hands. >> the boys like being very loud to say what they think and if they're wrong, they don't care. >> now, i assumed that she was right, because that happens to be my daughter who said that. and the prevailing theory at the time was that because of boy's aggressiveness, coed schools were just unfair to girls who were overwhelmed by the boys. but maybe things have changed. today many educators say the boys get stifled in school. psychologist leonard sacks is the arauthor of "boys adrift." your book says a school takes boy's motivation away. >> boys will say things like school is stupid, i hate school. i'll ask them why do you say that? they'll say, jason and me were

throwing snowballs and we got in trouble. or we could write a story about whatever we want, and i got in trouble. in american public schools, in schools have a zero tolerance party, which means not only can you not bring a plastic replica of a sword or gun, you can't draw one. >> for good reason, to reduce violence. >> it's not based in evidence. the notion is if you don't allow boys to draw a sword, they will become gentle fairies who want to talk about their feelings. it's not true. what they do is they chew -- i was referring to disney fairies as in tinkerbell. they'll chew their bread into a pistol and i can give many examples of schools in the

united states where a boy has chewed his bread into the shape of a pistol and gets suspended. >> when you were in school, you won a creative writing award. >> in which refugees tried to escape to west germany and got his legs blowed off in a mine field and died. then i visited a school where a boy wrote a story about stalin grad 1942 from the perspective of a russian soldier on patrol. and he's ambushed by a german and fires his rifle and describes what happened and how this explodes. and this boy was suspended from school. boys doing things that boys have always done, throwing snowballs, drawing pictures of a weapon, boys doing things that boys have always done now gets you in

trouble. that's why so many american boys think school is for girls. the boy who writes the story about combat gets in trouble. instead of getting an award like i did, he gets suspended. when i went to high school in ohio 30 something years ago, the kids earning the honors, the valedictorian, they were all boys. now they're all girls. we didn't go to 50-50. we swung all the other way. when did boys decide that arguing is not something boys do. >> you grew up in a sexist world. now it's more equal. now the girls took over because they're smarter. >> the boys have decided that being in a debate club is uncool because it is aligned with the academic objectives. what's cool is getting to the

next level of "call of duty." boys don't want to read the story you want to write. i want you to write about your feelings. write a story how you feel if you weren't invited to the party. what happens? boys say instead of writing about the battle of stalin grad, i'm going to write about how i feel if i wasn't invited to the party. the boy says, school sucks. i'm going to go home and play call of duty. >> stick around, because these are touchy issues and our audience would like to question you. and then we'll continue front some myths about gender. are women worse drivers and are men more likely to cheat? that's coming up. huh...fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. yep, everybody knows that. well, did you know the ancient pyramids were actually a mistake?

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[ applause ] >> we're back with your questions for my guests, leonard sacks who says boys are cheated by american schools. shawn latta who says we need government to force schools to provide equal sports for girls and sabrina shaffer who runs the independent women's forum. why is no one tonight talked about the fact that we have two physical standards between men and women in the military and

law enforcement. are we equal or not? >> we do have different physical standards and that's biological. men have more testosterone, so they have a greater capacity to be stronger. >> shouldn't men have an advantage in combat? >> the average man. >> why not have one test, and the women who have equal or greater strength they can get in. but why is it fair that they can get in by running a slower mile? >> they have other skills. >> in terms of business and technology, much of the innovation still seems to come mostly from men, even though women are graduating from college in greater numbers. >> and getting masters degrees

in greater numbers. >> what do you think of the long-term effects on this on the economy? >> you're raising an interesting question, which is what drives innovation? steve jobs was a college dropout. bill gates was a college dropout. so academic achievement measured by college degrees does not reliably correlate with innovation. >> we men are just more innovative? >> also we have to look at where women are placing their efforts. many women are getting degrees in fields that aren't necessarily the same as men. while men are going into computer science where we may see tangible results in terms of innovation, women getting ph.d.s in english, we may not see the same thing. but women are going into the big tech firms, microsoft just hired another -- >> but they are the exception. >> right. but they are influencing this

innovation. >> who's got the mike over here? >> you said that the title nine you felt was necessary, that if it wasn't for that, we would still be in the stone ages. how would you explain a relatively new sport such as mixed martial arts, cage fighting. already there's females in a number of major organizations, without any law that required them to do that. how did that come about without basic societal change. >> title nine was passed in 197 2, so it's over 40 years it's impacted social beliefs. so now -- >> so the law changed people's attitudes? it wasn't the reverse? >> it opened the doors for women to have opportunities. >> would you say it's still necessary or that the change has been accomplished? >> yeah, get rid of it. >> absolutely not, because even

so, the national women law center estimates at least 70% of colleges and universities are still not in compliance with title nine. and so -- >> the boys want to play sports. if i throw the football to these guys, i know that will happen. if i throw it to the girls -- -- okay. [ applause ] we're out of time. thank you. coming up, women drivers and fillandering men. to restore the historic boardwalk, welcoming beach lovers back with a refreshed and revitalized place to get out, get moving, and have some fun in the sun. it's part of our goal to inspire more than three million people

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[ applause ] finally, a couple myths about differences between the sexes. is it true that women are bad drivers? or at least worse than men? what do you think? let me ask you, how many think, raise your hand, that women are worse drivers? the men, not the women say it. i say with all these myths, there is some truth to it. this video that's been watched more than a million times illustrates what i think's true. women often just aren't very good at maneuvering a car. maybe it's about brain differences relating to depth perception or something. but in this parking lot, a woman

tries to park again and again but she just cannot get into the parking space. finally a man gets out of his car, switches places with the woman driver and he's quickly able to park her car. then he gets back into his. one comment said, women should be in the kitchen, not at the steering wheel. but when it comes to bad driving, what is the best measure, parking? not really. driving without hitting things matters more, and by that measure, we men are much more likely to crash a car. this is a graph of deadly car accidents since 1975. the good news is that the total has gone down. either cars are safer or most everyone drives better. or both. but the clear difference between the two lines show men crash cars more often. as one research review put it, men drive faster than women and we're more likely to speed,

drive drunk, run stop signs and we crash twice as often as women. in the u.s., men cause 71% of all deaths on the road. of course, men drive more miles than women, but even when miles and driving hours are factored in, we men get into more accidents and hurt more people. based on that, you've got to say women are better drivers. [ applause ] but men are more likely to be unfaithful to cheat on their partners. so is that true? i'll ask the audience, how many have cheated on your spouse or boyfriend. all right, you're not going to give me an honest answer. but anonymous surveys suggest men are more likely to cheat. and evolution may be the reason. for thousands of years, a woman knew her children were more likely to survive if she found a man who would stay and help protect her and the kids. women who partnered with such

men were more likely to pass their genes on to future generations. by contrast, men were more likely to pass on their gene it is they had sex with lots of women and fathered lots of kids. today we're told women want a committed relationship and men want variety, right? >> i'm deeply sorry i did not live up to what was expected of me. >> i did not have sexual relations with that woman. >> so are men more likely to cheat? a study found 19% of women and 23% of men reported cheating. so men are more likely to cheat, but the numbers are close. cheating isn't just a guy thing. and on that note, that's our show for tonight. often what we think we know is just not so. see you next week. [ applause ] .

i'm chris wallace. president obama faces new questions about how he's waging the war on terror. in a he prevacation news conference, the president discusses government surveillance. >> i want to make clear once again that america is not interested in spying on ordinary people. >> the threat facing americans overseas. >> we are not going to completely eliminate terrorism p. what we can do is weaken it. >> the state of relations with rush why and battle over obama care. >> the one unifying principle in the republican party at the moment is making sure that 30 million people don't have healthcare. >> we'll get reaction to all of you from senator john mcca