this book. >> all right. great one, mark levin. [ applause ] and thanks all of you for coming, as well. that is all the time we have left this evening. as always, let not goodbye. >> we want the police to keep us safe. >> we have to do everything safe. >> we have to do everything we can to keep a safe. much? to make the area has been be >> tonight. john: "the police state"? america is not a police state the we're pretty free. for the most part but we

didn't learn that they grabbed records of phone calls and the males and a and who we talked to the and when i am not that upset i figure might political enemies already spy on me but is duse's slippery slope leading to terrible things. but there was already things that my government does that upset me more. radley balko writes about them in his new book radley balko one dash "rise of the warrior cop." what do you mean? >> call on r&d and undressed and trade like soldiers and military tactics. john: and the equipment tanks, helicopters, . >> guns, and for a long time they were reserved for each emergency situations like the escaped fugitive for the active and schuster or hostage-taking situation. john: you want to go there with power.

>> lives are at stake at a think anybody is opposed to using a s.w.a.t. team but they're overwhelmingly use today in a way that creates violence with confrontation were there wasn't before. when you break into somebody's home at nights that aren't you are creating confrontation and putting a very primal spots in to people so when these drug dealers shellback they think they are being robbed by another drug dealer so when it is a medical marijuana dispensaries, they are a business operating under state law. that hippie couples will not kill federal agents. use a link that these forces is a political message to make an example because they were flouting federal law. when the government used --es vo have a serious discussion if that is inappropriate tactic in a free society.

john: and they use s.w.a.t. team surveyed poker games or bars with underage drinking or barbershops? >> even regulatory inspections in a lot of areas are conducted with a s.w.a.t. teams. a group of tibetan monks that were overstayed their visas on a peace mission were confronted with a s.w.a.t. team. it is almost beyond parody. john: when this started in the seventies there were 300 per year. >> gate used to be the last resort when no other approach would work but now we see it as the first resort to use this force as of 200,550,000 per year or 150 per day. john: we have videotape and arizona adrian that served two tours was asleep in his bet. >> he woke to the sound of his wife screening in

telling his wife and son to hide in the clause he walked into the hallway with his military weapon police conducting a drug raid engaged 71 bullets in him 22 times he never engaged his weapon.@ >> his wife called 911. john: the paramedics came but they would not allow them to treat that has been more than one hour that they had to secure the scene and in that time he bled to death.

this has to be a very extreme example. >> and research i found over 50 cases were a completely innocent person was killed even after it happened, the police admitted if he had survived they did not find anything they could arrest him for with no evidence of a crime. john: they thought it was said drug charge and there was no evidence? >> his crime was being related to somebody who was involved in a criminal enterprise. john: another example from missouri again it was the s.w.a.t. team. >> john: drug raids like this happen in more than 100 times every day. this time they broke into a family's house, shot the dog , once inside they did not find any drugs to the owner just had possession of

drug paraphernalia. >> when this raid went fibril a couple years ago people were outraged sending angry hate mail to the police department there is nothing unusual about that raid. that went as exactly as it was supposed to go even the shooting of the dog there was a child inside, a battering ram the only thing unusual is that it was recorded and posted online. john: in 2011 arizona sheriff's office used to armored vehicles and a s.w.a.t. team to raid the home of cockfighting? >> writes even the action hero stevenson gaulle had been signed up as the deputy so there were tv cameras following and he drove a tank into this for guys living room. john: rethink we have video

>> with their rollout i rollout. >> his s.w.a.t. team? >> they got it through -- from the pentagon designed in use in battle shooting 50 caliber edition even the military has restrictions in the use in the cockfighting investigation? john: let's hear from the police we have the county sheriff from ohio, russ martin you say it is the good thing? >> i do. good airplanes land safely it is not news but when tragedy happens it becomes news and although radley balko does make good points a lot of it is anecdotal and i will tell you day in and day out law-enforcement service was provided by the judge and vetted with probable cause safer because of these tactical units.

john: a drug raid or a cockfighting bring, why all the early morning off your door down stuff? >> i have been associated with 150 or 200 raids but said great thing. john: yes but for drug raids >> yes we have a matrix involving the risk if they have a criminal history, the guns involved in the value of the intelligence. frankly i think it is a safer use of equipment keeping law enforcement officers safer as a result speenine you are right to very few of these percentage wise ends with a person dying but they used to be reserved for cases when you had somebody who already acted in violence or in the process of. we never really had a public discussion if this is appropriate for us to use against somebody who was suspected of a crime not

even charged. >> what enforcement in america is one of the most difficult jobs we are called to protecting keep the constitution of the united states. we take serious our response also in the public for an hour communities are asking us how would we responded to columbine? john: the community always gets scared and overreact. >> but with law-enforcement we are bound to the local control of our communities. with the local school boards as well what i do if there was a raid on our school of a columbine situation i cannot say we don't have a response for that. it probably will not happen. so i will tell you we're not militarizing of our police near specializing them in community policing is strong and a life. john: a armored vehicle is not militarization? >> the last time i used it for weeks ago a husband tracked his wife out of the drive and shot her we tried

to establish contact that is a safe way to approach the house. i am not sending people into these homes without being prepared. >> that is the emergency situation somebody proves they are in immediate threat and that is spent -- a response is appropriate. but when you send a s.w.a.t. teams in to enforce a drug or it you are creating a confrontation and violence where there was not before. >> we may not disagree but i think law-enforcement is to be held accountable. john: but they rarely are. nobody gets fired. >> i know sheriffs that don't get reelected and chiefs of police to do the -- lose their job so it is still a proper accountability. john: have you ever got the wrong house? >> not in the 200 i have been involved in. john: good. but i am conflicted because

i hate cops that act like bullies but then i watched these tv shows like law-and-order i root for the cops later in the show it is revealed that he was not to the bad guy. he was innocent but the cops searched the house without a warrant but i as a viewer, i was okay with that i watched the show all the time and i should say is this constitutional? but i don't. >> you get a rush watching that but to those who had been on the swap rate is the attitudes of the use to describe the feelings they use are very similar that they use the you get from the drugs that they conduct

the raid it is adrenalin, intoxicating in the raid itself can be habit forming. john: one other twist, a glen defense his modern technology like cameras in over phones. because people think both "the police state" they think of the novel 1984 were the government used millions of cameras to watch people even in their bedroom and at the time the pundits said this technology will give government too much power. but it turns out they give people and individuals power just outside my office of the coquelin the bicyclist came it and ran into him on purpose but then the video showed up showing that the officer was the aggressor. >> he was eventually fired. maybe video like this is why they'd want to we filmed.

>> i am clearly wearing nothing. >> they are resting me? i don't understand. >> the officer took her to jail with obstructing governmental administration. >> i did nothing. john: she chose to take a traffic stop outside her house the charges were dropped but only after she was harassed for making the video public. >> by an advocate for video cameras. i tell my officers all the time. make sure you get my good side. we want to show the community to develop trust. we put cameras in our cruisers and i think over tender 15 years you will see body cameras on almost all law-enforcement officers it exonerates police more than it will convict them.

john: doesn't it encourage the rogue cop to behave better? >> another measure of accountability. john: thank you sheriff martin. , a radley balko. this police officer was fired after these people do nothing wrong for also martial law when is that justified? >> the surrounding areas have been virtually shut down. >> stare holmes. stabilize. i have low testosterone. there, i said it. see, i knew testosterone could affect sex drive, but not energy or even my mood. that's when i talked with my doctor. he gave me some blood tests... showed it was low t. that's it. it was a number. [ male announcer ] today, men with low t have androgel 1.62% testosterone gel. the #1 prescribed topical testosterone replacement therapy increases testosterone when used daily. women and children should avoid contact with application sites. discontinuandrogel and call your doctor if you see unexpected signs of early puberty in a child,

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>> heavily armed police s.w.a.t. teams and are swarming the streets of boston. >> stay in your homes. stay in place binocle residents can do is comply. john: last april in massachusetts people were looking for the boston marathon bomber and they were right to shut down the town says james carafano from the heritage foundation but jim harper says no. that is a recipe for a police state. jim, why? >> i said the bright people made the decision with the elected officials to make that decision but personally

as a public safety measure measure, it was over the top but i am not accountable to the people of my city. if it works the way it is supposed to the people responsible made the decision by retrospect tells us obviously it was an overreaction. hundreds of millions of dollars of lost economic opportunity and the people of boston are strong and resilient. >> base the decision they made based on the fact that they had at the time. >> is not the decision to make but they should trust the people of their city to defend themselves to some degree. john: they were completing? >> they were not complaining. we should not castoff confidence because of fear

smith that is why they delectation of mayor so where the secret service, will have a national convention in to shut down the entire city in the mayor said i will bet not do that then the secret service says it is your city >> that does not actually help and when they levelled guns. >> you sent us this picture pointing the gun right as somebody's window. >> my gun training was that you should never point a gun he did not want the bullet to travel we have people leveling guns on an innocent civilians. >> they have to point is something they were looking for a guy who may have had a machine gun or grenades and. >> by a professional law enforcement is not allowed

to point to what is that people inside their homes through the because somewhere in the citysomeone ma. >> that is a great point. professionals have to act professional. we have a lot of examples. >> this is after hurricane katrina he said i declared martial law. >> he can't. it has to be congress or the president. >> that need to render the responsibility of the military they declare martial law because they think people are incompetent to defend themselves but people actually come together with there ising emergency situation we found out where nothing bad happened with the power outages and in boston people to strangers into their homes because the hotels have closed they can handle things better than leaders thank. >>.

>> the what about the police over reach? >> there were no tanks in boston this is the most fearsome of vehicle that the boston police used in the ian hunt. it is about as scary as the armored trucks that move cash to and from the neighborhood bank. john: notes carrier? i saw pictures of the camouflaged humvee with a turret on the topic is like the people at nbc even like it to. talk about the and essays by may agree that they lied to us. >> does the nsa collect any type of data at all? 1 million hundreds of millions of americans? >> nosair. john: it turns out the real answer is yes but he lied about it. >> to support the data gathering? >> if you have a problem

that people and congress should have a problem with themselves because they write the laws because they are clear in specific. >> it is weird they break up and say oh my god there's gambling. what did they think we were writing these laws for? john: so much other stuff i hate about my government. data mining they are not listening to individual calls to stop the terror. >> i am for the constitution the first time we have seen a general warrant because that is flatly banned by the u.s. constitution. as a practical matter. john: during the time of the revolution. >> came george allow the troops to rummaged the homes under a general war did that was offensive they sometimes still think that is what is happening with our data. john: but it is not.

soldiers are not in my house >> because your home is outside onto the internet communication with loved ones, the medical information, internet. john: with terrorism they claimed 50 incidents. >> they are wrong they have not substantiated with any real evidence in the best experts senator udall and senator weinstock -- senator white in disagree that this has prevented any terrorism. if it goes to the supreme court then they will stop. if congress does not like the of law that congress wrote that it contains a lot john: why should i care? >> it isn't anybody's business. when a person is innocent what they have done with their life whether calling or surfing the in their -- and is not the government's business but it is being gathered anyway.

john: i tried to get worked up about this i have 100 other things about government over reach the that i hate more. thank you. jim and james. if you drive through this town police may threaten to take your children. this police officer was fired for telling the truth telling about the secret ticket quotas. ticket quotas. next.

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john: to police officers have ticket'' is like 100 tickets per month or you are in trouble? knows say the police department's and some states ban that but not alabama. in the town of auburn we are told they had to write 100 tickets every month stage

did one officer completed shortly after he was fired. says you are out of the police department? >> once you come forward to blow the whistle you are blacklisted. john: in fairness it wasn't you just complaint bayou complained publicly also a secretly videotaped your sergeant to give this order. >> we will have 100 contacts per month. john: you did this because they were lying to say we would not admit this? >> yes sir. they will say that we will not have quoted is the stretch and quantity over one dash quality over quantity. john: they said we would never implemented a quota we think they are bad practice it would not do it for ready because it causes more money than what we take in. >> that is what they klay but we get $34 per ticket in

2011 that is $800,000 the city brings in. i don't know when hitting cost is. john: i could see why they would say we need quotas or you will to fall off. >> but it is counterproductive you have a reactive police force you are setting speed traps not patrolling and if the crime happens you filed the of purporting go back to writing tickets. john: you save the unintended consequences on in this said people? to make you tell the officer with so many contacts they go the easiest way. working downtown we observed a gentleman walking of the sidewalk with a little bit of buddies the balance. he just lives the few blocks he knew where he was going into he was in walking home to keep from driving in showed here is a division

and cooperated we determined he was no threat and we let him go. the supervisor told us to go back and arrested a man that i needed it for my statistics. i refuse to and my partner fearful for his job arrested him. john: a kid with a fake identification? >> dien bien drinking in public he had a fake i.d. i had been on a traffic citation and the supervisor said you have to rest him for liability purposes if he gets more drunk with that ticket in his pocket they could sue you so taken to jail that way you are covered legally. john: some police officers say i wrote him up for pop? >> this thing off the police >> somehow of quotas in ohio they do not unite it is a moneymaker they say 200,000

per year. >> there are for effective ways feel the way is that we cannot focus on the citizens you have to get off the street if you want the traffic to work well but the bulk of the police force needs to be deterring crime into detective danehy to get into the businesses and around the neighborhoods. john: thank-you justin hanner. ridiculous police access in my town. and also government blocks up non-violent montes and daddies. you need a girls' weekend and you need it now. ladies, let's goo vegas. cute! waiter!

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john: what should government do to reduce crime or persuade criminals not to break the lock? and bill o'reilly thinks he knows. >> harsh mandatory prison time that is why you need mandatory sentences. john: mandatory? a lot of legislatures agree now almost 200 mandatory minimum sentences with the federal criminal code a and in the state there are more. in florida were caught with seven illegal pain pills you get three years minimum 25 years if you're caught with 44. i find this hard

informant made up the story. >> is this typical? >> it is and representative of the phenomenon. when you have low level offenders, they're the one that's tend to go to trial and tend to get the mandatory

minimum at sentencing. people know they're guilty get caught say hey, i know i've done this. i know i'm guilty. often they get out well before the people who maintain innocence. >> get out sooner if they can say... i know a guy who is doing it. implicate someone snels. >> sure, it's called providing substan ashl sis stance fchl i'm part of a criminal conspiracy -- . >> being a snitch. >> yes. so i'll get less time. unintended consequences are people at the top have the most information. they run to the prosecutors, cut a deal and get lower sentences. people at the bottom, less culpable offenders don't have information, can't cut the deal and end up serving long sentence autos scott earl served 25 years addicted to vicodin. >> had back surgery got addicted to painkillers.

met someone in a bar said i'd love to have painkillers and kept hounding him. she turned out to be an under cover police officer. in the end he set up deals for her to get pills, never sold them or made money off transactions arrested and now serving 25 years. >> the judge said, this punishment does not fit the crime. with great reluctance. >> it's a common reaction from judges they look and say there is no way this sentence fits. yet very to do itd because legislature has given me no other options. >> advocates say g we're safer. >> there is in evidence it contributes to a decline in the crime rate. none whatever. >> some states have gotten rid of minimums. >> absolutely. new york crime is down, michigan repealed all drug

mandatory minimums. >> robert moss sold marijuana then stopped selling it. got out of the marijuana business. when expartners were caught they tried to reduce sentences by ratting moss out. as a result sentenced to 20 years in jai. sheer one of his two daughters. >> i was born 10 days after my dad went to prison. i'm now 12 and a half. i'm waiting. >> a few years after that, their father was released. >> i have never felt normal in my entire life. i felt like there is something missing and i didn't want people to think i had daddy issues. you know? i had government issues. >> and for what?

group without a father. for what? for what? >> you got the law changed in florida. >> yes. >> they never gave up. they went every day. they got a small reduction. >> change helped knock three years off your sentence. >> thank you, karen and greg. coming up the police discovered new ways to spy on us. you can hang up your phone and police can still listen to you. did you know that? do you know, that? if you've got it, you know how hard it can be to breathe and man, you know how that feels. copd includes emphysema and chronic bronchitis. spiriva is a once-daily inhaled copd maintenance treatment that helps open my obstructed airways for a full 24 hours.

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john: the police have new ways to spy on us for years ago they may capture hold full blind but now they can turn your laptop or your cellphone into a listening device and listen to you even when you are not using these things. i did not know belt this but julian sanchez covers privacy for the cato institute. really? >> yes.

as it turns out it was first reported a few years ago in light of the nsa revelations but most cellphone carriers have the capability to remotely install spy where. john: rigo lee? >> it is like a natural update as a there was a software upgrade to keep it spreading fast. john: i don't call it in the update if the office which does not turn it off. >> that depends on whose idea it is. >> in china they are more aware of the dissidents will often be to each other to take up the battery to put on the table to make sure people take the appropriate precautions. john: what other things? >> ourself loans are tracking devices. john: if they will listen then that also requires a

warrant? >> listening does but location tracking if you are not using it physically installed device may not. license plate readers to know where every car in this city is, is so fond records records, a checking what tower they were near every time they made a phone call call, a variety of technologies allow us a different ways to we searched disagree with the same backscatter machines at airports to provide the gsa agent with naked images of our bodies but to look under the vehicle or under clothing or a match a suspicious shape. john: cruz dell industry a bad people? be bigger vehicles and. john: the public says you have nothing to worry about if you don't do anything wrong if we are safer. >> but who determines what is wrong? if you look at the history of our country you find a decades-long history of the

abuse of power for political purposes to suppress dissent to the most the tories case of the decade-long campaign waged by the fbi to destroy and discredit martin luther king to be replaced by what it could be replaced by the right kind of negro leader also women's rights activist of the civil rights leaders, unions, has anyone seen as opposed to the authorities. john: but we are smarter now this would not happen today is immaculate at history and current events around the world becomes clear when people have the power to observe the public without their own actions subject to oversight and accountability , without does watching the watchers they will keep to themselves.

the authority to determine who is a threat to a and very often someone who has a different political view is a threat to in their eyes as many dissidents were seen as a threat. john: more police now are not using drones. >> miami-dade police with the 18 lb drone used in war zones over the streets and has a camera attached underneath. john: and it will happen more places. so what? the satellites look any way. >> scale matters police can follow someone down the street but what if it was possible to follow everyone all the time? are we willing to except in the name of safety a world where everything everyone

does is the second they step out of their own front door is now a matter of permanent record to we searched it a couple of years by someone who may not have safety as their primary interest? john: thank-you julian sanchez from the cato institute. next the police in my town and engaged in excess could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. mmmhmmm...everybody knows that. well, did you know that old macdonald was a really bad speller? your word is...cow. cow. cow. c...o...w... ...e...i...e...i...o. [buzzer] dangnabbit. geico. fifteen minutes could save you...well, you know.

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>> terror threats. >> it is credible and serious. john: when i hear those alerts i get a little scared i work here time squared year due york city we are a target the statistically crime is a much bigger threat for by a far more likely to we mugged by a junkie the and killed by terrorists. in either case i want the police to protect me into the tools they need but i also want to be left alone. in the police already have special powers. voluntarily or force are the two ways to do things in life. lee the government or police officers have the right to use force a candy cane, a jail or shoots as if necessary. so that is why it is important we have the constitution it limits what

the police can do but it'll always respect it. like most people they're happy to acquire more power in and buddy and increasingly in america they now use civil forfeiture law to take people's property even if not convicted of a crime. this gives them a powerful incentive to make accusations. toll so oklahoma drive around in the escalade that says this used to be a drug dealer's car. now it is ours. be able to keep stuff creates a temptation to get stuff. a district attorney's office in and texas bought the office margherita machine. "the new yorker" reports in texas police stop people for a routine traffic violations and if they haae money with

them sometimes take them to a jail until they agree to give their money to the city and if they resist because they have kids of the car they will threaten to take the kids away turnover to child protective services. in cells like extortion. use of the port perturb lot is growing in 20 years ago the justice department collected 27 million but last year they grabbed more than $4 billion worth. government always grows. one last example from my town the police chief department did great job reducing crime but it grows even the stupidest ways. >> this is the scene near wall street where one year ago during the occupy wall street protest barricades were placed around a sculpture of the wall street bull and police officers were stationed here.

>> had to put up the barricades to protect him. >> they had to? know they didn't. it is ridiculous it weighs more than 3 tons and is nearly indestructible. the head of the neighborhood association said the occupied protest was a dangerous situation in hundreds of people literally in the streets because the entire plaza was barricaded the only place to be in the street. >> even the protesters are long gone the barricades are still here forcing pedestrians to walk into the street. it creates new ways and it is dangerous but a request to remove the barricades go unanswered and the police officers are still stationed here also. >> i don't know why they are they're a waste of taxpayer dollars? seems to we taking civil forfeiture law as their freedom.

>> as jefferson once said that is the natural progress of things. government grossi in freedom yields. that is ever show. begin for watching. we will see you next three. >> john: i'm john roberts in for chris wallace. new allegations rock the nsa. documents leaked why former nsa contractor edward snowden detail thousands of privacy violations by the agency after repeated denials from the white house. >> what you are not reading about is the government actually abusing these programs. >> john: we'll discuss with a key member of the homeland security committee and critic of the nsa kentucky senator rand paul. then, another week of chaos in egypt as the interim government's crackdown on supporters of ousted president mohammed morsi leaves hundreds of people dead. >> our traditional cooperation cannot continue