i came in under the assumption that it was clean. i've been living in a fool's paradise! oh boy... there you go... morty just summed it up. the next 44 years we'll be fine. coast, red eye. >> tonight, on huckabee. tonight on "huckabee" -- >> we should be doing everything we can as a tonight on "huckabee" -- >> we should be doing everything we can as a country to create more good jobs that pay good wages, period. >> the president talks a good talk, but what's the truth about today's job market? >> i have been long term employed four years. >> i have never been unemployed. this is the first time. >> i work two jobs. they're both part time. >> it is depressing, defeating, humiliating. >> the real unemployment numbers and the real stories behind them. and --

>> having the freedom to maybe start your own business because you know you'll be able to get headlight care and it's about jobs. >> is it about jobs? small business owners say obama care makes it impossible for them to hire. >> more dollars you take out of the owner's pocket, less money to reinvest into the company. plus, want a solid well paying career? "dirty jobs" host mike rowe says learn a blue collar trade. >> if you show up early and volunteer for the hard stuff, you're going to run, you're going to run that organization. >> tonight on a special "huckabee," where's my job. ladies and gentlemen, governor mike huckabee. [ cheers and applause ] >> thank you. thank you very much, and welcome to a special edition of "huckabee," "where is my job."

from man's beginning as recorded in the book of genesis, we were hard wired for work. we were told by god that we would earn our bread by the sweat of our brow. you know, it's natural for us to want to prove our value by producing. from the time we are children, we imitate our parents in their work, whether it is the little boy who tries to take tools to fix something or the little girl who begs to help her mother in the kitchen. it's just part of our dna, to want to be grown up. and one sure way to feel grown up is to work. that's why the loss of a job is far, far more than just an economic setback for a human being. it's dehumanizing to want to be productive and not be able to acquire meaningful labor. there's pride, there's dignity in being able to sit at the table and eat a meal that your work provided. but in our current economy, a record number of americans are either unemployed or underemployed, meaning that the job that they have is either part time or pays less than

what's required to meet basic necessities. in 2011 the centers for disease and control and prevention reported on the suicide rate from 1928 all the way to 2007. suicide rates mirrored the economy in the ups and downs with bag uptick when the great depression began, and hitting a zenith in 1923. suicide rates plunged during world war ii and then they spiked in the early '70s and '780s, after unemployment hit its post-war peak in 1982. suicide dropped to the lowest levels ever in the year 2000 when technology was on fire. unemployment was at a stunning 4% at the time. but has the dot-com bubble burst? american suicide rates have been steadily climbing. all of that is a stark reminder that the job issue is an

economic issue. it's a lot more than that. it's an issue that gets to the very soul of our culture and its people. joblessness results in either people giving up in despair or rising up in defiance. of course, both parties claim to be all about jobs. >> as you know, house republicans have been focused on economic growth and jobs since day one. >> today our businesses have created 7.2 million jobs over the last 40 months. this year we're off to our best private sector jobs growth since 1999. >> but the truth is jobs aren't created so much when the government does something as they are when the government stops doing things that put an anchor instead of a life vest around the necks of entrepreneurs. we hear a lot about values, but do we value the work and the people that do it? if so, we ought to pay them as if we do value both them and their work. companies ought to pay employees as generously as they can because good workers have worth.

now, if the employer keeps too much for himself, he or she doesn't really value the worker. and by the way, the reason that high taxes are bad is because it's a sign that the government disrespects the worker by believing that what it's going to do with the worker's salary is better than what the person who earned it will do. but when we see employees as having worth, we'll see their work as having value. that's the value of work. now, i believe you are valuable and, therefore, what you do has value. american employers added 162,000 jobs in the month of july, is and the unemployment rate was lowered to a 4 1/2-year low to 7.4%. my first guest says those numbers don't add up and the government figures don't really reveal the true job situation in america. keith, it's great to have you here today. >> good to be with you.

>> well, friday, we got those new numbers. 7.6% to 7.4%. what's not to love, keith? >> first of all that unemployment rate is the most closely watched economic statistic there is and unfortunately it's the most flawed statistic it is. in order to be unemployed you have to have flo job, no pay, and secondly you have to be doing certain things to be unemployed as opposed to just be jobless. in particular you need to be conducting interviews, sending out resumes, things like that. and in reality what happens is when people are unemployed for a long time, at some point they get tired of looking and they go into a passive mode. they send out resumes to everybody they can think of. they talk to all their friends but when they go into the passive mode, they stop being

counted in the unemployment rate. so a lot of what's happened is the unemployment rates, particularly since the end of the recession about four years ago has really dropped not because people are getting employed but because people have moved from unemployed to jobless. >> t"the wall street journal" hs an interesting article. "low pay clouds job growth." what are the real numbers that we should be looking at, keith, when it comes to the unemployment figure? >> well, the number i think is most important now, also important determining income growth and tax revenue and how many people are on welfare, it is something simple. it's something called the employment rate. ate, share of the population with a job. right now that number is low, about 58.7%. and the problem with that, of course, is that when the recession started, that was thought to be about 63%. when the recession ended, it had fallen all the way from 63% to

59.4%, but since then in this four years of recovery, that number's only gone down. it's actually declined over time. so for any sort of progress in recovery, that's the number that has to go up. you have to have a bigger share of your population with work, and that's just not happening. and, keith, how many people who are considered employed are only working a few hours a week, not full time, maybe part time, maybe even a fraction of the time that they really need to be working to make ends meet? >> yeah. well, there are certainly people underemployed in a number of ways. 20% of people employed now are part-timers, and that's rather a lot. that number is much bigger than it was before the recession started, so they're considered the employment as being employed, doesn't matter how many hours. that's a problem. and, of course, the second thing is do workers' skills match the jobs they're in. if you've got somebody with a lot of experience, lot of skills now in a job inappropriate for

them, they're counted as employed and not part of the statistics. >> keith, i appreciate your being here. by the way, keekts is going to rejien us later in the show, so we're going to keep him around for a while. coming up, tamara holder says the jobs outlook is bright. she says the president is helping job growth. can't wait to discuss that. and we hear from americans that are either unemployed or underemployed. desperate to find work. you'll meet them as well. we'll be right back. >> i'd like to hear from you. go to my website. tell me what you think in the leave feedback section or sign up for my facebook page and follow me on twitter. find a link to that and more at mikehuckabee.com. now add a boost with new olay moisturizer plus serum.

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you can find your husqvarna dealer at husqvarna.com ♪ ♪ (vo) purina cat chow. 50 years of feeding great relationship . throughout the show tonight you're going to be hearing from throughout the show tonight, you're going to be hearing from people who have different stories but with one thing in common. they're all looking for work. terry simmons took two pay cuts

before she was laid off from her job as a health care insurance agent just last summer. she spent more than a year sending out dozens of resumes. sherry, let me ask what kind of feedback you've been getting from the employers that you're hoping will hire you? >> hi, governor. i have had kind of an interesting experience with interviewing. i've looked at opportunities where i might be going into an entry-level position, and one of the questions asked of me is pretty typical. what is your long-term goals, where would you like to be in, say, five years. and i say, of course, that i'd like to apply my skills and be able to grow with the company, learn their business, and be able to grow with them. and the response that i've had to that has been kind of surprising that, well, we're a small company, we're not really

planning on growing, most people don't get the opportunity to move up or grow in our company. that's just not in the plans right now. and that goes against pretty much everything i've learned about business, both in school and out in the real world, is that you constantly need to be adapting to the market and growing. >> sherri, i appreciate you being here. thank you for joining us. >> thank you. >> joining me now is fox contributor tamara holder. the president says he is making progress on jobs. tamara, you're going to have to convince me. i am maybe not seeing ethel merman singing "everything is coming up roses" right now. >> all americans on the left and right agree we have seen a stagnant economy. we have seen very slow growth. it is not what president obama hoped and dreamed. it's not what the average american hope and dreamed about, but it's slow. it's stagnant. i'm not going go back to the

"bush started it" kind of thing. >> you're not? that's the first time i heard a liberal not blame bush for it. we're making progress. that's progress. >> i can blame bush on other things if you want to get me started, but i think everybody is discouraged. the problem is that republicans are obstructionists, and instead of talking about -- instead of talking about how do we get more americans back to work, we're seeing them talk about how to cut food stamps, that every person on food stamps is a welfare, lazy recipient, and that's not the case. people on food stamps are hard working people, making minimum wage jobs, doing minimum wage jobs, underemployed, need it to support their family. >> you know, i wouldn't even argue. a lot of people are on government assistance out of necessity, that's not an argument you have with me. >> why does your party want to cut? >> i can't answer for everybody in the party, you're talking to me, not the people in d.c. who i think sometimes are as out of touch as obama is. so just understand that. >> so it's both sides.

>> it is both sides, except for this. it is the president's policies that are making it very difficult for business owners to make long-term plans. the tax consequences, 20 taxes in obama care, 16 already in effect. the fact that the payroll tax went back up, those are real issues that curb people from hiring. so why is it that the president's policies, if they're as good as you say they are, why haven't they resulted in a stimulus package? why hasn't it resulted in something other than this very anemic recovery? >> it's not the president's policies that are pathe problem. they're part of the problem, but it is corporations' behaviors. we have seen mcdonald's, domino's, all these major corporations paying lesser wages and seeing profits. just saw in the news this past week, mcdonald's posted second quarter profits again. >> would it be better if they were losing money? would you be happier? >> no, but -- no, no, no. but i think that if a company makes money, then they should

reward the people helping them make money, the workers. the company's making the money because the guy standing at the cash register is selling the burgers to the drive-through customer. >> and i wish that every company could pay more, but what if they can't pay more because the cost of their doing business and cost of what their business is going to be in the next quarter is such they can't continue to do it, plus, you know, let's face it. a lot of companies -- i know you may not understand -- they have investors, and if they don't return something to investors, the investors don't invest and the company goes out of business and everyone loses a job. i am not defending low pay because i think people should pay good money for the jobs they do. that's what i just said in the monologue. what i want to specifically ask you to explain to me is how come it is that the obama policies have not resulted in anything other than a massive downturn? in full-time employment we've got a part-time nation now. >> see, this is typical republican scare tactics.

massive downturn. there is no massive downturn here. we have seen a slow growth. we have seen -- and i agree that the numbers aren't necessarily that great. when you see the front page of "mother jones" of all pupally indications saying that the numbers are deceptive, you know, we all see it on both sides of the fence. but the point is that we're at a time now where there's a lot of instability, whether you talk to somebody on wall street or economists or people on the left and right, and we need to keep going at a pace of investing in our workers, and how do we do that? i agree with cutting corporate taxes and cutting small business owner taxes, that's what obama is trying to do. >> i missed that part of his policy. tamara, stay with us, we will bring you back at the end of the show. and "dirty jobs" host mike rowe talking about the value of blue collar jobs. but first small business owners tell us why the president's policies are keeping businesses from hiring anybody.

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christina bellows recently lost her job as christina recently lost her job as a manager at a nonprofit, she's got bachelor's as well as master's degree. she has 20 years' experience, but needs benefits and can't find a job that offers any. christina, when you talk to potential employers and say look, what are the benefits, what kind of response are you getting? >> well, first of all, sometimes it doesn't even go there, because with the first interview, they don't talk about benefits. they say benefits aren't provided but they don't necessarily say what kind of benefits. and i don't necessarily bring that up, nor do they bring that conversation up.

>> i hope things get better for you. i know that your situation is like that of so many people in the country, desperately looking for work. obviously you're willing to take some cuts from what you had, but you still have to be able to live. we wish you very well, christina. >> thank you. >> thank you. [ applause ] we're joined by a couple of small business owners. they want to grow their businesses, would like to hire more employees but can't. we talked to them in the past, both have been on the show. we're very happy to have them back. william mash mar william marrish and gina martin of little rock tours. great to have you both back. gina, i'll start with you. when we talked before, when you were on the show, you were telling us how obama care was very complicated, making it difficult for you to know if you got to the 50 level of employees, that was going to throw you into a whole new realm. have things simplified, gotten better, are they still confusing to you? >> well, they're still confusing

for sure. they aren't any better, and simply because here we sit again. we know we have that one year extension that has happened since the last time we spoke, but really things are not any better. we're still faced with just enormous cost increases for providing the health care that we provide, so we're having to look at decisions in our business to see do we even continue to pay the health care coverage with the employees that we pay it for now, because not only is health care insurance going up, the regulations are going up, the unemployment taxes going up, disability is going up. every single aspect of what we do keeps going up and up. >> here's what i find interesting. the affordable health care act was supposed to make health care more affordable, supposed to make it more accessible. your employees were already getting health care. now they're threatened with not getting it at all because the cost of the affordable care is not affordable. did i get that right? >> that's right. >> i think that's pretty -- it

kind of whgoes against what's supposed to be happening. william, when you were here before, you talked about the challenges you face. you have a smaller company, handful of employees. how does the current policies of the government, whether it is obama care or tax policies, how does that keep you from growing? >> well, you hit the nail on the head, governor. you said this the affordable care act was supposed to, quote, bend the cost curve down. my health insurance agent came into my office about a week ago, said in 2014 when obama care is instituted you should expect your rates go up 40% to 50%. 40% to 50% after we've seen successive increases year on year of 10% to 15%. the fact is the affordable care act is nothing of the sort, it is totally unaffordable. furthermore, what's going to happen in small businesses like mine across the country is the rates are going to become totally unaffordable. and at that point employers will no longer offer health benefits.

when that happens, employees will be effectively thrown to the curb. they'll join into the obama care arrangement, and the cost of obama care will balloon. so what you're seeing today and in the unaffordability of the plan is really just the first wave of a tidal wave that's going to hit american business. so when you ask what we're doing about it, we're keeping our heads head heads helmets on and our heads down. to try to understand what kind of operational environment we have in several years' time is impossible. my job is to make sure my men are employed, that food is on their table, that their mortgages are being paid, and i can't risk that future for them, for me and my family when the future is so terribly uncertain. >> so that's -- you know, i hear both of you saying that even though you provide health care for your employees, it may get to the place where you no longer do that. it may be less expensive for you to pay the penalty. that would be less

expensive to do that. then when you do that, your employees still are required by law to go out and find health care, which is going to be a whole lot more expensive for them. so how is this helpful to your business and to your employees? >> well, this isn't helpful at all. not only that, i would have to say the timing of this is awful because we're all seeing -- and william and i were talking backstage. we were talking all the increased regulations on top of the health care, the timing couldn't be worse. and i would also like to say that i hear a lot, well, corporations are greedy. i want to make it clear, this isn't about greed for most businesses. this is about survival. and it gets down to you only have so much money, and you have to allocate what you want to do with that money. if you throw it into health care, you don't have a business. so these are the choices that we're faced with. >> in the little time we have, i want both of you to tell me if you anticipate that you will hire new people over the next 12 to 15 months, will you let go of

people because you can't afford them anymore, or are you hoping to hang onto what you've got? william? >> well, we're not looking to hire in this environment. the market -- >> is it the environment? would you be hiring if it was a different climate? >> opportunity for american manufacturing right now is unbelievable. if you look at natural resources, the growth in the global economy, the innovation history in america, our human capital, american manufacturing has a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to expand and to once again dominate the world, and it breaks my heart that at 40 years old, a relatively young business owner, my outlook on the future is not what it should be. >> and, gina, what about you, just real quickly? >> well, you have a fire in the belly if you're an entrepreneur as it is. i would say that the opportunities with our business and growth, they have certainly been stymied years ago, especially with this administration, because there's so much uncertainty out there. we never know what's coming down the pike, and we don't know with health care increases and everything else what we're going

to do. and right now what we're looking to do really, and you've heard this a lot, is increase your -- you know, decrease your costs by actually turning your full-time workers into part-time workers. so that's one of the things that we have thought about doing with our business. and we really are looking at whether or not certain positions within our company are necessary because it's a fight for survival. >> we'll keep in touch with both of you. appreciate your being back today. william, thank you. if you want a good paying job, what about getting a job to get your hands dirty? coming up, mike rowe, host of the hit show "dirty jobs" shows us how attitudes toward blue collar trade could be, could be the solution to high unemployment rates. stay with us. because sleep is a beautiful thing™. zzzquil. the non-habit forming sleep-aid from the makers of nyquil®. ♪

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live from america's news headquarters, i'm marianne rafferty with the latest developments in the crisis in syria. it's being described by one whois official an extension. the president and his top aides are reaching out to congress. they're ufrming lawmakers to vote in favor of authorizing a military strike against syria. leading the charge for swift action, secretary of state john kerry. >> individuals who are engaged as first responders in east do mass was, i can report to you today they have tested positive

for signatures of sarin. >> earlier today some 70 house lawmakers wrapped up a classified briefing with top military advisers. one lawmaker tells fox news he and his colleagues are split 50/50 over what to do. i'm marianne rafferty. now back to "huckabee." for all the latest headlines, log onto foxnews.com. max lieberman graduated in 2008, with a degree in chemical engineering, then a master's in economics and engineering in 2012. his education makes him an ideal candidate for the green energy jobs that the obama administration's been promoting, but five years on, he still can't find a job that matches his education. max, we hear about a lot of green jobs. you have been five years out there beating the pavement. have you thought about relocating maybe to houston or oklahoma city where the oil and gas jobs are?

i mean is that something you've even looked at? >> i thought about it and exercised on it. i eaten sent out my resume to people in california, texas, canada, overseas, had my ears to the ground. it's the same story wherever i go. always we respect your education, sounds great on paper, but we're just not hiring anybody for your position now. and it baffles me because everybody's told me for years, whether it's my family, friends, advisers in school that i'm on track and the government wants to support me. same story everywhere i go, can't find the job, it is not there for you. >> you have two prestige is degrees from a very prestigious university. what are you doing now? >> i am working for an energy company that helps people save money on their building costs. so portfolio managers, building owners right now, but it's low-grade and i want to expand and get something better. frankly, mike, i want to make the salary that i know i can

live off more comfortably and live to enrich my own life, and that's not something i am doing now. so, again, i've been looking and it's just not happened for me. >> maybe being on the show you'll get a call. >> why not. >> max, we want to hire you. i hope so. talk to mike, maybe he has something for you. >> i am hiring. thank you, max. great to have you here. that ivy league education may land him a great job, but maybe an expensive college degree isn't always the best path. a lot of people should consider a career in skilled labor. mike rowe is host of discovery channel hit show "dirty jobs." he also has a foundation, mike works, helps people train for well paying jobs in skilled labor. mike, it is a real pleasure having you here. >> it's nice to be here, thanks. [ cheers and applause ] >> you're talking about something, mike, that's near and dear to my heart, and that is that a college degree is not

always the ticket to a good career, and yet we're told that, you know, if you go to college, you're going to be able to get a good job and make a lot of money. >> yeah, look. it's a difficult thing to talk about because the minute you take a position that's contrary to the prevailing narrative, you're seen as anti-college. well, look. not all knowledge comes from college, all right? there's been a thing -- [ applause ] >> it's so easy, i think, to confuse the cause of the thing with the symptom of a thing. and a lot of things that we talk about today, a lot of the headlines from the skills gap to unemployment to currency devaluation to the changing face of the modern-day, whatever it is, these are symptoms in my opinion of a bigger problem, that's a relationship with work that is on "dirty jobs," we saw it again and again and again, people were continually

surprised to see how happy the people were that we met and to see how prosperous they were. so there's a chronology in all things. in college, look, i wouldn't trade my degree, but when i got out of high school, i didn't know what i wanted to do. i went to a community college. i spent two-and-a-half years at 40 bucks a credit. so you can afford to fail, right? trying to figure out, trying to figure out what it is i wanted to do with the useful part of my career, and it took awhile to sort it out. but i feel lucky because i did it in the right order. i never took on any debt. and in the end, i'm okay. >> you know, there's a post ter -- you know, i think it's a poster that you saw i think in a high school guidance. we have a shot of it. >> that's what i meant when i talked about cause versus symptoms. this is the single worst piece of advice i got. when i was a senior, my guidance counselor called me down to talk about my future. he suggested james madison or university of maryland. did pretty good on my exams. but i told him the story i just told you and he pointed to the

poster, and he said, which one of these guys do you want to be? if you see the caption on the bottom, "work smart not hard." that's where the old chestnut began and that poster was part of an early college recruitment. on mine, we work to say -- >> it is a small thing. >> we are challenging people to get them hung in classrooms around the country because the argument is really simple. if you're a society that took the advice of work smart not hard, if you really do believe you can separate hard work from success, then a lot of things we're dealing with now start to make sense. i don't want to sound like somebody's angry uncle on the porch screaming at kids to get off the lawn, but look, i don't care if you work for mcdonald's or for william's company that was just out here, if you show up early, if you stay late, and if you volunteer for the hard stuff, you're going to run that organization before too long.

we just don't talk about that. >> that is such an important piece of advice, and i think we almost diminish the importance of people who do work with their hands. i value that. when i am on an airplane and it has a mechanical problem, i am more excited to see a certified an a&p certified mechanic than i am a history major come near the airplane. >> no kidding. >> that job can't be outsourced. i told people, if you need a plumber, you can't outsource the toilet, send it to china, have them send it back. >> that would be very expensive. look, again, it is not about this is bad or this is good. this is a skills gap, all right, something, the bls at the top of the show was interesting, but it is another inconvenient piece of the narrative that nobody ever talks about. there are 3 million jobs available right now. companies like caterpillar struggling to find heavy equipment mechanics.

these are good jobs, okay? >> what do they pay. >> you can start there mid-40s, and with a couple years' experience, 120, 130 a year. >> do you have an application with you? >> but it is simply a question of what do we value, what do we celebrate. it is like manufacturing. if you look at detroit and consider all of the things that went wrong, for me it just starts with our relationship with that which we make, our relationship with making things, you know. we're just missing the headline in the conversation over and over and over. >> if you had a piece of advice that you could give to the president and to congress, what would you tell them? >> look, first of all, i'm not an expert, never want to put myself out there as one. i would say the reality of the situation right now, vis-a-vis alternative education, we have to make a case for the trades. we have to start with an awareness campaign, a public relations campaign that challenges perceptions and stigmas.

3 million shovel-ready jobs from four or five years ago is great idea, i had a dirty jobber tell me when that was announced, look, that will be a tough sell. you're talking to a country that no longer has a relationship with a shovel. you have to start at the beginning. so i would say let's maybe step back a little bit, have a broader conversation. i would say $1 trillion in student loans is no joke. and i would conclude by suggesting that we are lending money we don't have to kids who can't pay it back to train them for jobs that no longer exist. that's nuts. >> you know what, mike? that's common sense. that's why mike is going to stay with us. after the break, we're going to bring back some of our guests to expand the discussion. we'll talk more about is america becoming a part time nation. we'll be right back. [ applause ] >> what person in the audience, who doesn't want health care from an employer? who doesn't want it?

>> from a personal perspective, i wouldn't expect someone to hire someone to take care of every aspect of my life. becoming a part time nation. mom always got good nutrition to taste great.

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a minimum wage part-time job at a fast food restaurant working 20 hours a week. she's on strike, would like to unionize. stephanie. >> hi, governor. >> how would the union in fast food arena help you, do you believe? >> everything is power of numbers. you know, if i was to go to my boss or the corporation on my own with a problem, i wouldn't get anything done, versus going to a union and having the union behind me, i think the outcome would be much more successful. >> sometimes the union dues become very expensive. would you lose more than you might gain if, you know, you go from $7.25 an hour to $8 an hour, but the union wages or the union dues cost you? >> no, i don't think i would because, you know, it all falls back on if i get $8 an hour, that would be a start. that would be more than $7.25, and i would be able to live comfortably.

>> well, stephanie, i hope you do well. i really do. it's a tough break to lose the job you had that was paying you a whole lot better than what you're doing now. i appreciate your being here and sharing your story and your perspective. >> thank you. >> thank you very much. joining me now again, mike rowe, tamara holder, keith hall is back. first of all, let's address the issue. is unionization of fast food workers, is that viable, tamara? >> absolutely. >> you think it is? >> absolutely. because this is an industry that has a very high turnover, and we're seeing so many workers like stephanie herself who are going to fast food places because they have nowhere else to turn, and they're taking whatever job they can. but we're also seeing they're paying people just barely above minimum wage, and these are people 46% of these people are age 21 to 35. they have families.

they have kids. they need to pay for more than just whatever $8.95 an hour can pay for. >> mike, does the unionization of a fast food worker really help the people or does it raise the prices of fast food so high that people can't afford to do there? >> honestly, it's a bit beyond my pay grade. what's interesting to me is look, the union conversation is about the relationship between the worker and the boss. the conversation that i'm personally obsessed with is about the relationship between a few hundred million americans and work. work and labor are different things. and i think it's really easy to talk about two different things accidentally at the same time when you talk about this story and the topic that we were just talking about. which one informs the other, right? i wish her well too.

i mean, honestly, my liberal friends and my conservative friends all seem to want the same thing, whether the issue is rent control, unionization, minimum wage. they just disagree on what's the symptom and what's the cause. that's still missing from the conversation. that's a long way of saying -- >> but they're not talking about protection of workers. governor huckabee, i worked with unions, i represented railroad workers who were fired in the name of homeland security and they had to go to their unions to get their protection from their employers, and so i understand what personally as working with people, why the unions are important. back in the day, unions were created because of poor workplace conditions. we don't really have that anymore. now we're talking about a different form of protection. health care, whether or not you like obama care, health care. these are things that workers need and want. >> but the unions are totally disenchanted with obama care. james hoffa's letter was scathing that he wrote to the president. >> and i'm not defending. i didn't defend obama care.

my statement -- let me make it clear. my statement did not defend obama karks but what unions do is they protect workers and make sure they have proper health care. what person in this audience, who doesn't want health care from an employer? who doesn't want protection? >> i wouldn't -- personally, unless it was a rhetorical question, i don't expect the person that hires me to take care of me in every aspect of my life. i just don't do it. that's just me. >> as a self-employed person, i expect my employer to take care of that, but i'm self-employed. >> i am a small business owner, i pay my own health insurance. >> i want to bring in keith. help us understand, this isn't something that's just about numbers and figures, it is about real people with some real hurt in their lives, but it does get to the point of what is a better answer than asking the government to come in and demand certain things? is there a market solution, or

do we have to wait for the government to come in and order people to treat their employees right? >> well, that's really not the right way to get things done, to get higher wages. you want higher wages because businesses are growing and they want to hire people, and they have to pay them more to get good people on board. the story we just heard, the problem i see is not that she doesn't get paid more at a fast food place, it is that she lost a job to begin with and had to retreat to a fast food job. and to the point about work ethic, et cetera, and fast food. right now we're at an all-time low with teenagers. about 25% of teenagers have work right now. that's an all-time low. and that's typically been where fast food workers come from. and if we've got three quarters of our teenagers not working and not having any work experience when they head into the working age, that's a problem. >> mike, you know, i want to address something. mcdonald's takes a lot of heat

for a low paying job, working at mcdonald's. my son worked in mcdonald's when he was in high school. you know what he learned? he learned when to show up, he learned discipline. there was a very strict order of doing things, and the management find people were hungry and attitude, attitude. you can't teach it.

you have it or you don't. >> you're shaking your head. >> i worked at mcdonalds as a junior in high school. i did not like it. i wanted something better. i frs what working in fast food does for you and your psyche ask skills. but this is the most disgusting argument that it's -- you should take a low-wage job. like an abusive relationship. where are you going to go? you can stay here and it's nice house with me, and you have no skills and you can stay here. have you a bed and you have food and water but because you can leave this abusive relationship. where are you going to go? you can't go out to a shelter, you're homeless without me. so we can pay you nothing. we can pay you nothing. >> i think you're missing what mike said. that is that if you're better at a low-skill job than anyone around you you won't stay in that job. you'll find a way to move up. >> 2.2% of the jobs at

mcdonalds are managerial. low-wage job autos we're out of time. i'll treat you all to a big mac after the show. thank you very much panel. coming up, i got closing thoughts. stay with us. play close. good and close. help keep teeth clean and breath fresh with beneful healthy smile food. with special crunchy kibbles and great taste... ...it's a happy way to a healthy smile. new beneful healthy smile food and snacks feel like you're growing older... waiting to look younger? don't wait. [ female announcer ] get younger looking skin fast. with new olay regenerist micro-sculpting cream. the next generation with 2 new anti-aging ingredients.

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i've had a i've had a paying job since i was 14. it empowered me to be the first male in my family to go to college. when i was a teenager i had two jobs for a while. my job at kxar radio helped me to learn how to communicate,

think on my feet and develop confidence and overcome my fear of crowds. my job at jcpenney taught me the hard work of unloading trucks, stocking merchandise and made me to this day ticked off when people put their hands on the glass of a door instead of the handle. i was the kid who had to run there with the windex. i lost jobs that i wanted. including one that came with a nice house at 1600 pennsylvania in washington. and by the way i often have been pate paid a lot less than what i thought i was worth and sometimes i was paid more than i deserve bud still less than i would have liked. a couple of times i had jobs that ended and i had no idea what i was going to do to pay my bills and feed my family but i found something to do even when it was not anything like what i

was educated to do or enjoy doing. if i was not unable to find a job i am not sure i could handle it. i would go door to door offering to sweep porches or rake leaves. i have worked so long i don't know how to not work. i think one of the highest urgency of our government is the creating of opportunities so people can work. a job is not just how we put bread on our table, it's how we put life and hope into our soul. that's our show for tonight. hope you enjoyed being here. until next week from new york this [ female announcer ] since 2001 caroline penry's used olay total effects. and after 1 wedding, 2 kids, 43 bottles of total effects, and many birthdays, still looks amazing. now add a boost with new olay moisturizer plus serum.

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