>> steve: his name is trout! >> brian: do you know you have what's behind you? >> oh, yeah. >> steve: we're going to take a look at more of the animals in the after the show show. jack, thank you very much. congratulations on your 35th year. >> thank you very much. bill: more questions about when the president knew about denied death benefits to military families making the shutdown hurt more than it needs to be. welcome to america's newsroom. march report issue for now has been solved. the pentagon confirmed a charity organization stepped in and offered the money that was needed for the families of these five soldiers and marines, brave ones to a person who were lost

in action? afghanistan. bill: the pentagon warned this would happen. white house aide may have known for days as well. so when did the president find out. >> reporter: when did the president learn specifically that military death benefits would not be paid. >> again for the third time ... >> i didn't here that. >> when he did learn, he asked -- ed, i don't know specifically. i can tell you when he learned that these benefits were not explicitly dealt with in the para-military act he was very disturbed and he asked for the l and b and his hours to take action. unless you are willing to write the check, ed, it takes some time.

it takes some time to. >> reporter: there are people who care about it and want it done quickly. why won't you tell us what date he learned. was it yesterday or the day before? >> when the president found out, he was disturbed and he asks his lawyers and the l & b to work on it and we expect an issue today. >> reporter: nice try. you won't tell us a simple fact when the president learned. >> when he learned about it he asked for a directive -- direct those who work for him to find a solution and we expect a solution today. bill: wendall goler lead our coverage at the white house. do we know precisely when the president found out about this? >> reporter: it's still unclear. about it appears everyone knew

the shutdown would stop these benefits. the white house had been warning against trying to fund the government in piecemeal fashion though the president actually signed that measure. >> the department of defense as every agency did warned congress of the myriad consequences of shutdown. this one of those consequences. and unfortunately it was not explicitly addressed in the pay our military act. >> reporter: chuck hagel paid his respects to four of the military yesterday. hagel is a republican, bill. bill: that he is.

what are republicans in congress saying about this? >> reporter: some are accusing the president of making sure the shutdown causes maximum pain. senator mike lee said it's shameful that a private organization is playing the benefits while the government is shut down. >> the president and his people are doing everything they to be make life as difficult as they can for americans. >> reporter: the president will meet with some house republicans today. he invited all of them. some house republicans are willing to vote for a clean bill that keeps the u.s. from defaulting on its debts. bill: it's raining at the white house all over the north lawn.

>> reporter: yes, it is. martha: what the government calls a death gratuity -- it's been around for a long time. in 2005 the benefits increased to $100,000 and that was made re toe active to those who fell on or after 2001. bill: barry black, the chap -- e chaplain of the senate called the loss of military benefits shameful and more. >> lord, when our federal shutdown delays payment of death benefits to the families of our

children dying on battlefield, it's time for our lawmakers to say enough is enough. cover our shame with the robe of your righteousness. bill: tell us what you think at home. what do you think of the loss of the felt death benefits. it's outrageous. in 1995, 1996, the last time we went through this was not like this at all. the biggest outrage was about yellow stoner to yosemite national park. why then is it so different in 2013. martha: meanwhile, the hard line on the government shut down softening a bit this morning? john boehner and other republicans are head together

white house to meet with president obama. they are look at a short-term raising of the debt ceiling that would focus on entitlement reform and perhaps some spending cuts as well. stuart varney joins knee me now. this is the framework of paul ryan's proposal. we would take a break a moment to rethink this to couple with entitlement reform and tax reform as part of his plan. >> this is a proposal. it's specific, it's a plan. it will be placed on the table this morning in the white house in front of president obama. it's a short term kicking the can down the road. gain some time and what it amounts to is the "wall street journal" calls it a thaw.

a little bit of unfleeghts long term. wall street will open 100-130 points higher because of this proposal being discussed. martha: you can feel the ground shifting a little bit today. certainly the market likes the prospect of that. what about secretary lu? >> reporter: he says i will not pay one bill before i pay another bill in the event we lose spending authority. he says i will not prioritize. he's saying i won't do it, not that it can't do it. senator toomey says yes you can

do it, this bill will let you do it. but the democrats are going to squash that bill. it will not be accepted. secretary lew is stoking the fires of fear on a debt default. but wall street is opening higher about 100 points. bill: congressmen meeting with paul ryan to talk about a potential fix. >> i think the timetable is still being felt, but clearly republicans want to avoid default, we want to change the spending habits of the country and do it sitting down with the president and senate. >> reporter: what mood yims is saying is the d what moody's is

saying is the president is deliberately trying to scare the american people. that's irresponsible. let's tell the truth, tell it like it is. >> the president hasn't been negotiating a get some kind of deal. we are willing to do something short term to keep this going, but that will have to have reforms as well. bill: kevin brady is the chairman of the joint economic committee. we'll talk to him at the bottom of the hour to get his take. so stay tuned for more on that. martha: we'll have more on the timeline what the white house knew and when they knew it with regard to these military death benefits. could this have been avoid and was it done to make the shutdown feel a little bit more painful. is the president playing with

the grief of our military families? martha: if obama-care were a movie it would be yanked out of the theaters quickly. >> our mess najt house is we want to reopen our government and provide fairness to all americans under the president's healthcare law. the law had a roleout last week. what does that first spoonful taste like?

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bill: the white house not saying when they or the president knew about the death benefits being withheld but the pentagon warning this would happen when he spoke to reporters four days before the shutdown. this is what was spoken from that podium.

>> we would be required to do some other bad things to our people. we couldn't pay death gratuities to those who died. it's the law, not policy. if the death occurred after the slaps took place the money would be obligate and we would have authority to pay based on that money until the lapse ended. so in that case it would be delayed. bill: bill. >> this is not a surprise when you look at pattern of behavior from the beginning. this is the same excuse we got when the irs scandal broke out. fast and furious, benghazi, the president had no clue about anything.

of course this white house knew. they are on record and there is evidence out there to show this administration deliberately intended to inflict maximum pain on the american people including our active veterans. our world war ii veterans, closing the memorial and now our dead veterans killed in action. they have gone from spiteful to despicable. they have the resource. the president and the secretary of defense have broad authority to reprogram fund from one appropriation to the other. this is inexcusable. bill: doug, you worked for bill clinton in the 90s. he fought like a dog to his last day to prevent a shutdown. in the mid-90s the biggest dispute in mayor what today was whether you could go to yosemite or yellow stone in the month of

december. this is so different. why? >> we passed 7 or 8 appropriation bills before the shutdown, so the shut joint self was more limited. but the bigger reason was the person of bill clinton and newt gingrich, the house republican speaker and bob dole the senate minority leader. pot to the line, there was a commitment among them to do the right thing. to avoid worst effects of the shutdown. to avoid playing politics. bill: why wouldn't this president do the right thing, doug? >> i think there is enough blame to go around. >> the president, the republicans in the house and senate, every one negotiating to avoid a deal to get the government open. >> doug's former boss bill clinton and the other political

actors in 1995, they were pragmatists. you are dealing with a different celt of fish with obama. he's a committed leftist ideologue. little kid can't get into the white house. this is meant to inflict maximum pain, but the veterans is the worst of the worst. bill: at top of our program wind today goler was talking about whether the white house knew about this. we picked up this nbc report that lawyers at the defendants, justice and the white house all knew about this. if we at fox news channel can match this reporting that white house lawyers were aware of it before the shutdown happened, that's outrageous. >> the whole thing is

outrageous. i don't minimize it, i don't minimize what monica is saying. but the way you think about something like this is to solve it immediate lid. the cancer patients not getting trials. to make sure our government employees ... bill: you solve problems by talking about them. give us a conversation. it's not going to happen until this afternoon. >> but the defund obama-care movement was not helpful to this process. >> the house passed spending bill after spending bill to fund the government with the exception of obama-care and still the democrats in the senate and this president refused to do it. bill clinton did sign some spending bills. this president will not do it. he's vindictive, spiteful ...

>> no conditions, everybody to the table. bill: to both of you, thank you. the house vote is 425-0 to make sure this happens. the second time in five days they had to do it. martha: while many are sick and tired of this shutdown, several members of a key sector of the i.s. economy say they actually support the shutdown. they think it's going to be a good thing in the end. bill: what happens when you put anthony weaner in the the same room as sean hannity. this is must-see tv. >> have i said any of the questions are unfair? i want to have a conversation about me. >> you have been through a big scandal and it's a big issue. >> you want to talk about me and i was invited to talk about

other things.

bill: a florida family facing major repairs after their pool popped out of the ground. they drained the pool before they left sunday and when they came home they found this. turns out ground water is force it to pop up more than it should. >> we have three boys who are basically trapped inside the home. and it keeps me up day in and day out. bill: that's worse and the polls. repairs estimate at tens of thousands of dollars. unfortunately the family's insurance policy will not cover those costs. everybody thinks the government

shutdown is a bad idea. we have been reporting on the negative effects americans have been feeling. but there are small business owners who say they think the shutdown is not so bad. they support it but under one condition. john roberts joins us live. what is that condition? >> that condition is the republicans hold firm until democrats agree to come to the table for negotiations under obama-care and spending. one of the people we talked to is jeff efferson who is a small businessman. we caught up with him on his way overseas for his knife and gun relics business. he says he's standing firm with republicans in congress. >> i certainly think the timing

is right for to us support something of this nature. we have got to deal with the fact that economically our country is in sad state of affairs. if this is what it takes fear people to come to the table and negotiate, then i absolutely awe support that. >> another republican small business person says she fully supports the repeal of obama-care. and sheep thinks a shutdown is the wrong way to go. there are people who have anxiety over all that. they have seen the polls. but according to the owner of a georgia engineering firm. he says while there have been debt debt resultal effects of the -- so there have been detrimental effects his business has gone on.

>> this isn't about republicans not playing nice in the sand box. it's one man trying to dictate to the american people and it's his way or the highway. >> reporter: they did support to a large measure breaching the debt dpreelg this thing hasn't been worked out saying the government has plenty of money coming in. if we do breach the debt ceiling all we have to do is priority you eye our expense and make sure creditors get paid first. martha: john, thank you very much. bill: a tense situation this morning. the prime minister of libya has been kidnapped. late-breaking details on what happened there and where that stand at the moment. martha: president obama and john boehner finally set to have that

conversation at the white house. they narrowed it down to 1 state members of the republican side. will they be negotiating in there today? we'll talk about that coming up. we'll speak to congressman kevin brady. >> we want to see changes in how the country's finances are going. short term-long threrm would be something included. i'd put these on a salad. these would be perfect for cookies. delicious and nutritious sunsweet, the amazing prune.

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bill: $libya's prime minister just made his first television appearance after a day he will not forget. he was kidnapped by gunmen just before dawn for what appears to be restall yaition for a u.s. raid in libya. >> reporter: it show how unstable things are inside slip yeah. initial reports are that the gunmen who kidnapped the minister are subcontractors to the militia. they don't have a police force. when they showed up at this luxury hotel, they showed an arrest warned, beat up the security guard. a couple hours later he was

freed and showed up at the office. we don't know if there was a rescue operation or the militiamen decide it was not the best course of action and decided to let him go. bill: this is something that continues in a country with so much uncertainty, even now. leland vittert live from jerusalem. martha: yesterday the democrats went to the white house to talk and today the republicans will have their meeting at the white house on the standoff. a proposed short-term deal proposed by congressman paul ryan is gan -- is gaining some . good to have you with us today. you said to me earlier that there is really two meetings

today. the first one will get underway shortly. i know you will be part of that meeting. for the republicans to discuss their strategy what are they saying going into that meeting? >> we are talking about a two-step strategy that focuses on our bowl. we have got to tackle the real challenges facing america which is how we face social security and medicare for the long term. sequester has been helpful. we think the big challenges are the entitlements. republic have the courage to do this and tackle this. >> paul ryan's plan would to be have a-week extension. the sphonl way the republicans would agree to that 6-week extension of the debt ceiling would be if you could put tax reform and entitlement reform on the table for discussion,

correct? >> whether that's part of the full package or the short term hasn't been decide yet. my guess is the short term will be a down payment, then we'll exchange our spending habits. when want more time to lay out the growth issue and also the spending restrain issues. what we need is spending caps, guardrails from future spending from congress. we need a little more time to lay that out. martha: do you think the president is anywhere near ready to strike that kind much deal? he's not been interested in tax reform or entitlement reform. this could be a big non-starter. >> maybe not. we think it need to be done for everybody. he's teased out in his budget

some cuts in social security. we can take items from his budget that he proposed for the country and let's take steps he said publicly he will support. >> he has made some comments at least that led people to believe it's opening up a little bit and you might consider some of these. he knows it's been difficult for republicans was one of the comments he made. let's take a look at this new rasmussen poll. i saw this number and i think it's shock. 76 per o -- 76% of the country s the united states is head in the wrong direction. that's a stunning number. >> i felt that way and our district felt that way for a long time. it just tells you that this brinksmanship isn't working. how deep in debt we are isn't

working. this very weak recovery, the weakest in modern history isn't work. for the president to say i'm going stay where we are at. martha: i think people are tired of crisis politics and they are tired of the brinksmanship game. why is it house republicans four months ago, five month ago didn't come forward with a plan and pass a bill for tax reform and entitlement reform and put it out there 4, 5 months ago. then you could look back at this and say we have been wanting this for a long time. the ways and means committee i serve on. we are very close laying out the first top to bottom draft of tax reforms since president reagan did it. what we haven't get is put it in

a full package. martha: what's taking so long. >> we know we can't do this by ourselves. martha: so you can only function this way then is what you are staying in you have been working on tax reform for 2 1/2 years but you withheld it from a vote because you want to push it to the last minute for brinksmanship? that's what it sounds like. >> that's not how it is. republicans are serious about tackling this these issues. you do need in this constitutional government a president who will help lead. we would like a partner in the white house with us. but we have to tackle the big challenges and we have the courage to do it. martha: we may be looking at a 6-week extension during the time we'll discuss this. >> we'll get to the solutions but we have to do it the right way. >> we wish everybody good luck

on capitol hill for working this out. people are disgusted. bill: the cameras will be outside and we'll see if they moved the ball. martha: committee meeting is where they will get together in the room and say okay, guys, what are we going there with. bill: a big scare suppose to be for haunted howsers. a trip to the amusement park was anything -- that's a car statistic that stuck in mid-air. martha: two weeks into obama-care and there are new numbers how many people logged onto the web site. no idea how many people have signed up. >> a rolling calamity. consumers face dramatically higher rates. many we rain locked out. they are surprised their premiums went out.

instead of making it easier for people to get health insurance, it will be a lot tougher. today i have new campbell's chuy spicy chicken quesadilla soup. she gives me chunky before every game. i'm very souperstitious. haha, that's a good one! haha! [ male announcer ] campbell's chunky soup. it fills you up right.

martha: some thrill seekers got more than bar gaged for. 12 people were stranded at the top of the right for 2 hours. it's the city's tallest rollercoaster. a computer glitch caused it to go off the safety mode. they had to walk all the way down. >> how can we tax people for not buying a product from a web site that doesn't work? how can you give big businesses a maximum break and leave hard working families out in the cold? bill: that's the house speaker. the first reviews are in from americans. they give the thumbs down on the

rollout for obama-care. what you see behind me are the numbers we are trying to collect from various states. not at the federal level. this is the state level of people that signed up online. that doesn't mean they have written a check and gotten insurance. california right now is at 16,000. that number must be at the end of this 3-4 month signup period considerably higher. we have been watching maryland. 566 have signed up in the state of maryland. you hear a lot about kentucky. something is going on in kentucky because they are close to 15,000. but kentucky set up their own web site, their own system, they did not rely on washington to do

that. let's talk to gerri willis, the host of the willis report. give our viewers a sense of what these numbers mean. >> reporter: the fe feds are not talk about their web sites. we are look at the state web sites. in california you would expect the enrollment would be higher. add up all these numbers. bill: that number in california, should that be hundreds of thousands or millions. report * it should be at least hundreds of thousands. we are seeing 89,000 people signed up, enrolled. they are using it those two words interchangeably.

we have barely gotten started. these first few days are the big days you would expect people to enroll. bill: to be clear. signing up and enrolling are two different things. but until you make the payment you are not in the system. >> reporter: at this point the states are using those terms interchangeably. i agree with you it technically means something different. we don't know what the answer is on the federal exchange because they are not telling us. bill: the associated price out talking to people. 40% say the rollout is not doing that well at all. at the bottom only 7% say it's gone extremely well or very well. you are hearing, though. different anecdote at reactions whether they are older or younger, older americans say what about this? >> older americans are worried

obama-care is going hurt medicare. that's how they get their coverage. they think that the burden on the system is specifically physicians will be so high their care is going to suffer. they are hearing from doctors saying i'm going retire early and stop taking medicare patients. younger people are saying, can i afford this? this seems like a lot of money for care because they are not paying that now. the fine is only $95 in that first year or 1% of your income so they may opt not to get coverage. bill: many people say once you real eyed the sticker shock of the price -- once you realize the sticker price it takes you back. >> reporter: we are talking to people who say the costs are extremely high. there is a group of people not eligible for subsidies say they

think they are being overcharged. the cost of the obama web site, more than $600 million. anticipated at 97 million. bill: that was just to set it up? >> reporter: more than twitter and facebook is what's being said. bill: the numbers we are seeing. the state of kentucky be they are that 15,000. what's happening in kentucky that other folks aren't taking up on. >> reporter: they were organized, they promoted the web site and got it up early. bill: is this their exchange or washington's exchange. >> reporter: kentucky put it up themselves. one is a federal exchange people can sign for in 36 states. we are talking about the states that set up their own exchanges. some of them partnered with the government. but this is the only place we

can get numbers from because the federal government isn't telling us. bill: maybe the numbers would be better if the software were better and the system were better. but you will keep on it, i know. thank you. we'll see you at 6:00 eastern time. >> reporter: we have a call-in show tonight, don't forget. martha: the impact from the ongoing government shutdown is being felt nationwide at the parks and monuments that have been forced to close. but one mayor says i'm not taking this lying down. we'll go inside his fight to reopen the great smoky mountains. who would have thought could close them off. bill: it was no ball on the playground, then no cartwheels.

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[♪] bill: willie nelson yesterday. martha: an artist rendering. bill: scientists identifying planet 6 times bigger than jupiter floating all alone in space without a sun to keep it war. experts say they have never seen anything like the.

this lonely planet is only 80-90 light years from earth. martha: they are fighting to open the smoky mountains national park. jonathon, what exactly is the mayor hoping to do here? >> reporter: you can seat road leading into the great smoky mountains national park remain closed to vehicle traffic though rangers are allowing people to venture in on foot. mayor ed mitchell is offering local resources to keep park road such as this one open during the shutdown at no cost to the federal government. >> we would have been able to

patrol the road and fix the roads if trees fell, emergency services we had town's volunteer fire department committed to respond. >> reporter: in addition to the impact on businesses near the park, the road closures blocked the school bus route for children in the small mountain community called top of the world. steep, wind winding secondary roads are too steep for busses. all those mayor has dwroat receive an official response the nationality park service offered a general response saying while the agency appreciates such offers, they cannot accept them.

a parks spokesman says it would not be appropriator to feasible to open some parts or some parts of parks while other parts of the national park system remain closed to the public. sort it appears roadblocks like this one will remain a common sight until folks in washington can come to some form of agreement, martha. bill: it is the question of the day. when did president obama know military families would not be getting their death benefits. martha: republican officials accuse the top woman in charge of obama-care of e-mailing private information off taxpayers to the white house. >> this required people to go to

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find your co-pay cost at myflexpen.com. ask your health care provider about novolog® flexpen today. martha: fox news alert. digging for answers today from the white house. when exactly did president obama learn that the families of our fallen soldiers would not get the death benefits that our nations owes them due to the government shutdown? important question, big question. we're going to try to find out the answer to that today. welcome to "america's newsroom", everybody. hour two starting right now. i'm martha maccallum. bill: i'm bill hemmer. the pentagon holding back those benefits for families whose loved ones died after the shutdown began on the first of october. including four families of brave heroes killed in afghanistan who arrived at dover air force base yesterday afternoon. when did the president know? chief white house correspondent ed henry going to toe-to-toe with jay carney yesterday. >> he asked for the omb and his

lawyers to take action. >> so why didn't he have that action taken before today though. >> you have to work out a process, unless you're willing to write the check, ed. it takes -- >> who would write the check. >> it takes some time and are you suggesting we don't, ed? >> i'm say people who care about it who want to get it done quickly. >> it is getting done today. >> why won't you when he learned about it? was it yesterday, day before? >> when the president found out he was disturbed and asked his lawyers and omb to get to work on solution. we expect a solution today. this is not that complicated. i know you're makeing a partisan issue out of it. >> nice try. you won't tell a simple fact when the president learned. he wants to move quickly, if you learned last tuesday or day before? >> when he learned about it he asked for directed those who worked for him to find solution and we expect a solution today. martha: wow. that was some exchange. ed henry joins me now from the white house. ed, you did not back down on

that question and a lot of people want to know the answer to that and feel they deserve to know the answer to that. when did the president know? did you ever get a straight answer? >> reporter: still haven't gotten an answer, martha. we went back and checked the tape. back on september 27th, a few weeks ago a top pentagon official briefed reporters said the death benefits would not be paid in if the government shut down on object 1st. no one is suggesting that the president was briefed on that immediate. he was dealing with dozens of budget issues and national parks being shut down and the like. we since heard from inside the administration it was few days ago at least white house staff was really conclude in on this. in fairness to them they were dealing with all kinds of issues here. i still don't know exactly when staff briefed the president. a day ago, three days ago, we still don't know. the reason we want to know, the president was so outraged by it he wanted to fix it right away.

was that a three weeks ago, a week ago, a day ago? jay carney went on i point out to say he thinks the solution if the republicans reopen the government, we wouldn't fight over the benefits, wouldn't fight over the grand canyon being shut down. that battle is obviously going to go on the broader budget battle. the president will have house republicans over here to get the government reopen. to deal with the government being reopen so we don't have the drip, drip of of the government being shutdown. martha: the big question whether this was part of the feel the pain program. i think that is what has people so disturbed about it because john boehner said a couple days ago it was their understanding when they passed the bill that would allow individual rans to be paid, those payments would still go out. it was their understanding that would extend to families of the fallen as well. then you hear the pentagon and justice department and potentially white house lawyers went in there and, you know,

essentially circled that part and said, actually no, those families will not be paid under this. >> there is confusion about that. because you're right, john boehner, other republicans have said when they pass the pay our military act more than a week ago, we should point out the president signed into law because he wanted to make sure our men and women in uniform would still be paid during this shutdown. so both sides did come together on that. you're right, at some point the pentagon lawyers said we thought it might cover the death benefits, it didn't cover the death benefits. that is gets when was the president informed that bill didn't take care of the death benefit. the pressure should be on republicans and democrats on the hill, this is awful, and when did they find out and move quicker? at love people in washington have to answer that. martha: wish they would have gotten on it before the story came out. it makes it difficult to argue it was meaningful to you before it became a big story. ed, thank you very much. we'll see you later. >> reporter: thank you. bill: this issue hits especially

close to home the republican senator tim scott out of south carolina. he has two brothers serving on active duty. he talked about encounter with a family of a fallen soldier with greta van susteren. >> this morning in the congressman of jeff duncan we had private first class austin, on capitol hill, his son, 20 years old, married three months, died in afghanistan six months ago. he is sitting with us having this conversation, to watch the drama play out today in front of men and women putting their lives on the line. it is disgraceful. i can't understand it. bill: we've been asking to you tweet us about the death benefit controversy. some writing the following, if the point was to solve problems why didn't the white house order benefits to be given? here is another, i think death benefits for our soldiers shut off is disgrace. i'm a disabled vet van and i might not get my disability pay.

keep them coming. tell what you think. @billhemmer, @marthamaccallum. we'll read a lot of those a lit later this hour as well. martha: a lot of people symbolic of a president has a couple times overlooked veterans in this situation. we saw the world war ii story closed down. you have to ask yourself if these are ways to show the pain of the government shutdown or bill: send us a 2008. we'll read them later this hour. breaking news. fox news confirming now, sources say that john boehner will bring the short-term debt deal to republican members and now we wonder whether or not this is a solution. mike emanuel on the hill tracking this down. mike what do you have? >> reporter: bill, good morning. it is the hot topic when house gop leadership meets with rank-and-file members this hour behind closed doors. sources tell me house speaker john boehner and leadership team will bring up idea of six-week debt ceiling extension. there are possibility they may look at other options as well.

they want to see if they get republican buy-in from the house republicans before they try to bring something to the floor. the idea this would try and force the president to negotiate with house republican members on other items such as a long-term budget solution. steve scalise, the chairman of the puck pub study committee, a key conservative group, said that he would support a short-term deal the question is whether he would require other things to be attached to it. bottom line, all republicans here on capitol hill are trying to find a way to get president obama to the negotiating table. >> the american people by two to one margin say if you're going to increase the debt limit you ought to do something to fix the debt. the president is trying to get people all whipped over this the reality he is completely disengaged from trying to solve the problem. >> reporter: again a critical meeting taking place this hour. we will see because we will hear from the speaker top of next hour, whether his team, his rank-and-file, are buying in. bill?

bill: on that point do you have any reaction from the administration? is this something that the president would go for, a short-term deal? >> reporter: president obama said he would sign a short-term debt ceiling extension to take default off the table. he does not want to sign something that has other conservative add-ons. here's the treasury secretary on the hill this morning on this very issue. >> the president made clear that he thinks dealing with this for a longer period of time would be good for the economy but he did not rule out doing something shorter if that is what congress does. i think we've been very clear what we think the right thing to do is. >> reporter: if there is house republican buy-in on this deal the six-week extension this could move very quickly but sometimes they get behind closed doors and these deals may fall apart. bill. bill: you're very right about that. thank you, mike emanuel on the hill. martha. martha: bret baier joins us, anchor of "special report." it feels like there is movement here. seeps to me though it comes down

to a little bit of what your definition is of a clean debt limit increase or whether or not that includes a promise to do some reform in taxes and also entitlements? >> yeah, that's right. you heard the president at the other day at that news conference and we really listened into the words, he said them numerous times, he would be okay even with a short-term increase in the debt ceiling even if tey wanted to attach some process to it how he phrased it. that process as you mentioned would be part of this long term dealing dealing with entitlement and tax reform. what is talked about now is a six-week debt limit increase and decoupling that from the shutdown. so you have a number of different possibilities and ideas that are floating around there and the republicans going to the white house today will kind of start to iron out what's possible but a short-term solution, martha, i think is really what is going to happen. martha: that is what is shaping up. it is interesting the president's words, with the democratic group, yesterday with

the democrats yesterday saying there has to be some give-and-take. we never thought we would get everything and that he had some sympathy for what the republicans have been going through. interesting language. >> very interesting. considering the other language that we've heard for the last 10 days which is about extortion and ransom and arsonists and terrorists and suicide bombers. this is a little bit different tone and i think that's the start of what you're going to see. the question is, whether they do this short-term deal, martha, and then they actually talk about some big fixes. because on the big picture that is really what matters for the financial future of the u.s., is dealing with these long-term financial obligations that republicans and some democrats have been talking about for a long time. martha: yeah. tax reform and entitlement reform, all of those underlying fundamentals that many feel are required to have any real, long-term financial stability as you look down, you know, years

out. that is the big ticket. so we'll see if republicans get that. that's what they seem to be wanting right now. we'll see you later, bret. busy day. see you tonight. bill: consequence of the government shutdown that will outrage you. with all the talk about government workers getting paid, they may actually get paid twice for not working. how does that happen? we'll explain. martha: and she reportedly gave confidential tax information to the white house. now she is in charge of obamacare enforcement for the irs. how about that? coming up. bill: we're hearing also for the first time from the parents of a nine-year-old boy who government past airport security without a ticket. he flew all the way to vegas, baby. why they're now asking for help. >> i'm a parent. i'm not perfect. we assumed that he was at a friend's house. we had no idea where he was. heart healthy, huh?!

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bill: the father of a nine-year-old stowaway now pleading for help. his young boy slipping past checkpoints in minneapolis about a week ago, boarding a flight to las vegas. he had no ticket, no adult companion. how in the world does that happen? you are about to hear from the father. he did not want to show his face or reveal his name here. >> his mom was at a doctor's appointment. i was there with my son. she came home. soon as she came in the door i went out to do meyer rands. he said he was taking the trash out. from my understanding, he took the trash out. and just left. okay? late wednesday night, okay. i'm a parent. i'm not perfect. we assumed that he was at a friend's house. we had no idea where he was. bill: well that young boy is going to be okay. the dad saying he doesn't have the resources to handle his troubled son. he claims he asked for help.

but when he asked for help, no one listens. martha: back to this story now for a moment. house republicans now accusing the top irs official enforcing obamacare penalties of breaking the law, that she may have broken the law herself. house oversight committee members claim that sarah hall ingram giving private tax information. jim jordan pushing mrs. hall to explain several 2012 emails. watch this. >> just look at that email real closely. see where all the black print, where it is all blacked out? there is number written on each of the plaqued out areas. can the number written there? can you say for the number there. >> for the release of the documents -- 6103. >> 6103. so someone at the irs decided this was confidential taxpayer information. when we got these document, when the committee got the documents,

that is information you're not allowed to see, committee. yet it was fine for to you communicate to the white house and release that information and give that information. martha: wow. that is something. dan henninger, joins me now, deputy editorial page editor at "the wall street journal." dan, is that possible? cot irs have been sending confidential individual, personal income information to the white house to possibly get their approval or understanding on something that had to do with what they were doing, you know, in terms of political involvement? is it possible? >> you know, martha, from the beginning of this irs scandal the question has been the one you just posed, is it really possible that the obama white house could have been handling sensitive, confidential irs material in this way? there are severe penalties. you can go to prison for five years. and i think it's becoming clear that the answer is yes, that they could indeed have done that because to me it's clear now that this is probably the most

highly partisan, politicized white house can he have seen in a long time. much more so than the highly politicized presidencies of bill clinton, richard nixon or lyndon johnson. this is what this white house does all the time. back when they were involved with the irs, material, the idea was that they were going to take down the tea party, the five owe one groups the tea parties were associated with. indeed that did happen. a lot of these tea party groups under pressure from the white house just quit. martha: gave up. >> now roll it forward. we're in the middle of negotiations so to speak between the white house and house congressional republicans over the shutdown and the debt ceiling and it has been clear that the, i think, the reason the white house has been refusing to really come forward and actually negotiate is because they want to put the republicans in a disadvantage, disadvantageous position vis-a-vis next year's off year

elections in 2014. indeed the "gallup poll" yesterday said approval for republicans has begun to fall below 30%. and i think it is all politics all the time for the, for the obama white house. martha: think back to the quote that was on the cover of "the wall street journal" a few days back, from a white house official who said, we're winning. >> yeah. martha: that is telling. >> that was freudian slip, that was very telling. now the news is perhaps the white house is going to sit down, they won't call it negotiations but for a conversation with a group of republicans from the house to talk about a very short-term extension of the debt ceiling, in return for the republicans think some give on entitlement reform or tax reform. i'll tell you, martha, i just, i don't see it happening. i think they have got to worry about the white house setting up a trojan horse with this kind of a deal because in the past i've seen no evidence of the obama white house actually negotiating in truly good faith over such big issues as this. it is all politics.

martha: the administration that i can remember we haven't seen ultimately happens, that they do eventually want things to get done but i do want to get back to sarah hall ingram for a moment. >> yeah. martha: the suggestion from what i read on this the issue they were discussing between the irs and the white house had to do with groups pushing for religious liberties, for companies perhaps like hobby lobby who wanted to be exempt from obamacare because they didn't believe in covering birth control. if that is the case, if you have this individual sending information about that company or individuals related to that company to the white house to discuss whether or not they should be able to get these exemptions, is this woman, are there charges that would be considered against her? as you said that is a federal offense, is it not? >> yeah. these people run significant risk, there is no question about it. lying to congress as well can carry five years in prison. you see how careful she was in discussing with them. when officials come up and testify before congress and saying their memory has failed

them, that is usually a pretty good idea they are close to a very red area that they don't want to get into. and again recall the problems with the hobby lobby but the catholic church, remember, objecting to having to give out that kind of information under obamacare. they got into a huge battle with hhs over that, and hhs could have negotiated with the catholic church. instead they push the back because they were getting in the way of implementing obamacare. engen, this is what i mean by intensely, highly-politicized white house operation. martha: dan, thank you so much. always good to talk to you. >> good to talk you to you, martha. >> there is outrage once the military death benefits were frozen. a charity stepped stepped in tot damage by then was already done. >> major damage is being done to the country and families of our service people killed in action. there is no excuse, as i said, there is no excuse. hagel must go. >> o'reilly calling for

secretary of defense hagel to step down. should he? anthony weiner geting a heated debate with sean hannity. do not miss this. the exchange you want to miss. >> you want to talk about obamacare. >> i want to talk about that. >> i will be glad to talk about it. seems sometimes you need explaining on things. i'm here to do it for you brother ? >> female announcer: save up to 35%

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jo former congressman anthony weiner giving an exclusive interview to sean hannity. the faceoff began with the obvious question, did weiner learn anything from his sexting scandals. >> you went through this difficulty. you resigned from office. and then you do it again. i'm like what the hell are you thinking? >> that is not, it is not true. i'm kind of done talking about this stuff. >> obviously didn't do well in the mayoral race. do you think people are unforgiving? you got low percentage of vote. >> i don't know. you guys don't stop begging me to come on.

apparently you want to talk to me. >> i didn't beg you to come on. we asked to you come on. by the way i was kind of surprised you said yes. >> you asked me 50 times. >> i asked president obama 1,000 times you. >> want to talk about obamacare. >> we'll talk about that. >> so i'm like i will be glad to talk to you about it frankly. seeps sometimes you need explaining on things. i'm here to do it for you brother. >> you're here to help me out. >> that is what i'm hear. >> is it not fair to ask you -- >> have i said your questions are unfair. >> you're very defensive. martha: good thing he didn't have any sharp edges. bill: did it go uphill or downhill from there? martha: i think only one way that could go. >> you're right about that. sentencing day in unwith most significant public corruption cases we've ever seen at former mayor could face decades behind bars and a city that is bankrupt. mike tobin live in detroit. what do we expect for the former mayor today, mike?

>> reporter: bill, you hit on the big question here, whether qwami kilpatrick will get decades or years behind bars. as we see sentences increasing for corrupt politicians we have federal prosecutors here asking for qwami kilpatrick to get more time behind bars than any recently-convicted politicians. 28 years they are requesting. he has been convicted on 24 counts that begin with ragket tearing, extortion and bribery. kilpatrick has always been flamboyant, well-dressed, charismatic. he does have the opportunity to speak ahead of his sentencing. the question is, whether he will do it because that would put him in a difficult position of making the transition from insisting all along he is innocent to apologizing the court for what he has done. bill? bill: what role did he have in detroit's bankruptcy, mike? >> reporter: you know, he certainly didn't help, bill but you can't pin detroit's problems all on one person. if you look at what the federal prosecutors wrote in this

51-page filing that they submitted ahead of sentencing a scathing filing. they wrote the city desperately needed resolute leadership. instead they got a mayor looking to cash in on his office through graft, extortion and self-dealing. you look at the numbers. federal prosecutors are requesting $9.6 million in restitution. he is convicted of steering money to his buddy but not in the kind of numbers that compare to detroit's $18 billion in debt. bill? bill: mike tobin. thanks. he is on the story in detroit, michigan for us today. martha. martha: we're learning about a disturbing consequence of the shutdown. furloughed government workers possibly being paid twice. how about that? how do you sign up for that arrangement? bill: a deal has been struck to cover the military death benefits during the shutdown. it will come from private money, bill o'reilly said at this point that is simply not good enough. >> we learned the department of defense headed by former senator chuck hagel, stopped payments to

families of military people killed in afghanistan. that is absolute disgrace. no excuse for it. good job!

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martha: 10:32 on the east coast now. we're awaiting for a gop news conference. that will come up at 11 eastern. speaker boehner to ask the gop for a short-term debt increase. this is the meeting we talked about earlier in the show. they have gotten together to decide what their strategy and mo is when they go to the

white house later this afternoon to speak with the president and begin the conversation that john boehner has been wanting so badly for so long. of the. >> yesterday we learned that the department of defense headed by former senator chuck hagel has stopped payments to the families of military people killed in afghanistan. that is an absolute disgrace. no excuse for it. the two men responsible are the commander-in-chief, president obama and secretary hagel. major damage is being done to the country and to the families of our service people killed in action. there is no excuse, as i said. there is no excuse. hagel must go. he has lost all credibility among the military. and the president should order those payments immediately. bill: o'reilly went on to say, yeah, hagel should not keep his job. the pentagon meanwhile announceing a deal to pay death benefits to families of our fallen soldiers. there is charity group for veterans, fisher house, that

will cover payments for now. the pentagon will reimburse the group once that shutdown is over. families of five people that were killed in afghanistan must take the money from charity, not the government they died for. general jack keane, fox news analyst. good morning to you. >> good morning, bill. >> make sense of this. >> it is hard to make any sense of it frankly. i agree with mr. o'reilly. this is absolutely a disgrace. it is one of the most shameful things i ever have seen a bureaucracy do to people. to actually hurt people who are suffering and grieving over the loss of a loved one is staggering. i certainly do think that some dod official when they recognized this payment was not part of the congressional pay act that recently been passed to pay the military and civilians, i think that official should have paid them anyway. that would have been a courageous act to be sure because it is probably in

violation of some law but i don't think for a minute that person would have been fired. rather that person would have acclaimed for taking action. i used to tell my generals when i worked in the pentagon, look it, the reason why we have the stars on our shoulders about the leadership and ability to take risks on behalf of our soldiers and our families. i think someone in dodd should have been taken the risk -- dod. >> what do you think hagel, should he take the fall for this? >> i don't think we know enough to assess that at this point. when did know something and did he have the opportunity to fix it or for that matter, the president. listen, this is, an unintended adverse consequence of the government shutdown. and that is caused by the power politics that is taking place here in washington between the president and the congress. there will be other unintended adverse consequences because no way that anybody could foresee all of these consequences of a

government shutdown for a government as large as the united states is. bill: general, i think that's a great point but to be fair they were talking about this from the podium of the pentagon four days he have about the shutdown happened. >> somebody should have taken action. bill: they knew it was comeing. >> somebody should have taken action if they knew this was not part of the military pay act and insisted they're going to be paid and accept the risk associated with that. bill: i'll make another point for you. i mean we know that lawyers at the pentagon and lawyers at the justice department were aware of this. it is even possible that lawyers at the white house were aware of it. >> well that is certainly true. i don't know, i don't know those facts and i think it will take some time to come out. it is shameful. somebody should have taken action. somebody should have fixed it. the listen the power politics as i understand it is still going on. the house has passed payment for our veterans in terms of loss of life, a death benefit in other words, with no dissenting votes and the senate is sitting on it. so the power politics, even as

we speak today, bill, is still happening. >> 425-0. that was the house vote. and you make it, what is harry reid doing about this? listen, you know the fisher family. they have stepped in to help. tell us about them and their cause. >> well they have a long and distinguished history of helping military families and veterans. they are remarkable family based out of new york city. and just tremendous what they have done in taking care of our troops. and it is not surprising that the family would step up when they heard of something like this. and my hats off to them. i'm sure the families certainly appreciate this. the fact that right now we're still permitting this to happen knowing full well that philanthropist is paying a death benefit and we're not embarrassed by that and fixing that immediately and --

bill: you make a point about harry reid. boehner said last thursday they passed all this and took care of it. you're asking about harry reid and what is he going to do about it. which leads a lot of people to think this is a deliberate decision to inflict pain and to hurt a certain section of washington. so that they will be embarrassed by it. and now folks like you that have given your life to the u.s. military, you're left to try and figure this out and it makes no sense. have you ever seen anything like this? the last shutdown 17 years ago, none of this stuff was even a possibility. that was bill clinton and newt gingrich making sure it would not happen. >> well that is because they were all-in working together even though they couldn't agree and there was a government shutdown, they were all in working through the consequences of that shutdown. and that's what we don't have here. and look at it right now. we have an impasse over something as emotional and disgraceful as this and we still can't get it solved.

>> 425-0 in the house yesterday and that's where it sits. thank you general jack keane. good to have you, sir. >> always good talking to you, bill. bill: 21 minutes before the hour. martha: people like general jack keane and oliver north, literally so emotional about this issue and it just goes back to, you know, wondering where we are, right? in terms of how we make decisions and how political everything seems to have become in this country and you think sometimes people leave their integrity and thought fullness and reference at the door. bill: that is not right. martha: all right. so we want to get into schools and what's happening at them when we come back because first it was no cartwheels on the playground, folks. now one school district wants kids to wear soft helmets when they play soccer. is that a good idea? or should we just let kids out there be kids? bill: no trick-or-treat at one elementary school. halloween, folks, has been

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bill: so a school in pennsylvania pulling the plug on halloween. the principal says that holiday was quote, filled with religious overtones. folks there say enough is enough. come on now. >> i think it is ridiculous. i don't think you could speak to one child in this school district and ask them what halloween is about and would they cite any type of religious backing to that. bill: hmmm. is it the ghosts? martha: i don't know. bill: what would it be, huh? is it a witch? the school district now overriding the principal, allowing an after school fall festival on october 18 where students can wear a costume. martha: i think the man is right.

i don't know if that is good thing or bad thing, kids going, what are you going to be doing on all hallow's eve or all saints day the night before? bill: if you live there i recommend moving. good luck with that. martha: bill is very big on halloween. you don't want anybody messing with that. a new jersey school district ordered all students who play soccer to wear soft helmets. here is rooney, suffered a head injury. parents are saying helmets are unnecessary and opting out. school officials are pushing ahead with the plan. that comes after a new york middle school bans all types of balls on the playground. basketballs, baseballs, no soccer balls, no lacrosse balls, just go out there and look at each other i guess. if you want to do a cartwheel you have to be supervised by the playground lady. is that over the top? let's ask for answer from leslie marshall. syndicated radio talk show host

fox news contributor and michael graham, radio talk show host. i think they will differ on this one. start with the helmets and balls, lessly. you're a mom. i have three kids. i know michael graham is not a mom but he is a dad. so that counts. what do you think? >> that counts. first of all i think the cartwheels unsupervised and all the balls are crazy of the in my house you can't throw balls, just in the yard by the way. obviously part of this does tie into the level of litigiousness of our society. martha: absolutely. >> schools and other areas are fearful of lawsuits or complaints from other parents. however the helmets i would say, you know, it is funny i wanted to say briefly, as last year michael and i debate at u.s. embassy in dublin, ireland. we were in a car on the way to the ambassador's house, i hope you remember, michael, and we had an argument, we had an argument about letting kids be kids and overprotection. it is wild we're talking about it today. with regard to the helmets, head

injuries over time, so my husband a physician has told me, definitely we have not looked at that as much and football, and professional football players brought that to the forefront. soccer is not exception. my kid, other kids had bloody noses last few weeks and they're six years of age. soft helmet is a good idea. we have one head, one brain. a little bit of trauma can cause long-term negative ramifications for the child. martha: a lot of discussion about the whole concussion issue. i think leslie is absolutely right, litigious society is the number one reason. if one kid falls down, michael, falling down a short banister on the playground there is huge ban on any sort of banister sliding the rest of history at the school. >> first of all let's say we have absolute evidence of long-term brain injuries doing damage. they affect bureaucrats who run public schools around the united states of america. they were repeatedly dropped on

their heads or headed all the way through soccer. my 11-year-old daughter plays fifth grade soccer. they don't collide with each other. you have to beg the girls to collide with the ball. oh the ball. we do not have a problem with kids rough-and-tumble. we have a woosfied sew sight and refusal of bureaucrats to confront lawsuits. if the schools fight lawsuits, the lawsuits go away. by caving in you feed the litigators who want to come in and control your school. tell the whiney parents who don't want kids to play soccer, then don't play! martha: it get as little tougher with the soccer field with girls in high school. i can attest to that. many i see wearing headwear when they're playing. funny to me, in terms of sports in america we coddle kids so many ways. then they're expected to be warriors and get college scholarships by the time they're 15 1/2. we get really, really serious when they turn through the middle school phase of it.

before we run out of time i want to get your thoughts on the halloween issue because i was struck by the principal had to say. some holidays observed in the community for many secular, halloween, thanksgiving and valentine's day are viewed by others as religious overtones. we have to be sensitive the to community. i paraphrased. what do you think? >> my kids went to new school, can wear orange and black but not costumes. there are complaints, believe it or not from a lost parents. we see it with christian schools or large christian communities not having halloween but it is not because of religious. it is because of the antireligion or satanic questions some christians associate with halloween, not necessarily the wiccan religion. you know what? i grew up in new england. my birthday in october, used to love that and my birthday and halloween in the month. let the kids dress up. i live in l.a. it is halloween

every day out here, right? martha: or twerking costumes i see coming down the pipeline when i think what will happen this halloween. michael, chime in before we go. what do you think? >> first of all i've got my miley cyrus twerking costume. i will look great. i went to oral roberts university. nobody worships at the church of the big plastic jack-o-lantern filled with kitkats. there is no religious connotation. i love my wiccan cook friends, i there is nothing like we do. like saying valentine's day is religious holiday. no it is not. martha: it is cupcakes, candy. that is interesting thing we learned about michael graham today. thanks, guys. michael, leslie. see you later. bill: send us a picture of your miley costume, michael. we'll not put it on television. "happening now" is rolling your way. we'll have headlines throughout the day, jenna. what is going on? >> they will begin 10 minutes from now, bill. minutes from now, house speaker john boehner will hold a news

conference. we're reportedly hearing he will ask house republicans to okay a short-term debt increase. breaking news on that. continuing fallout from the 10th day of the government shutdown. the political implication. bad news for both sides of the aisle. political context from larry sabato. the latest on the motorcycle gang road rage story. bill: we'll see you 11 eastern time. we're learning about another possible side-effect of the government shutdown. will some furloughed federal workers end up getting paid twice? how is that going to work out? heart healthy, huh?! ugh! actually progresso's soup has pretty bold flavor. i love bold flavors! i'd love it if you'd open the chute!

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martha: all right. so you heard stuart varney a little while ago on our show. he called this the thank you rally. the that you in the negotiations

perhaps rally. as we await for gop leadership newser. that will happen at 11, the top of the hour. you don't want to miss that. that will give you a view what the news will be when they walk over to the pennsylvania avenue and knock on the door to the white house. bill: hundred of thousands of furloughed workers may get two paychecks. how does that work? william la jeunesse is live in l.a. on this. what is going on here, william? >> reporter: well you know, already a third of the new unemployment claims filed in new mexico came from federal workers. there are two big problems, bill, number one. state unemployment funds are depleted. there is no extra money. secondly those who do file will get paid twice for work they never did. here's why. congress already said federal workers will get paid for their furloughed time or time off. so taxpayers will pay them twice. once in back pay. and once in unemployment.

>> so that will create a situation in which there will be overpayments to these federal employees, that the states will be expected to collect back from the claimants who received those benefits when in fact they were compensated for those weeks. >> reporter: so, how much money are we talking? washington, d.c. paid about $4 million this week. maryland, six million. that is only for 24,000 workers out of potential 400,000! bill? bill: william, you've got work to do on this. let us know if it happens. thank you, pal. william la jeunesse is on the story in los angeles. more on that later. martha. martha: go figure. once again we're waiting to hear from house gop leadership. that will happen at top of the hour. everybody is waiting for the big moment, less than five minutes away. looking at a short-term debt limit increase but what will be included in that possible deal? we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] did you know

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♪ bill: it is throw back thursday. each week we highlight a moment in history we find special. today's throw back thursday, take us back to 1886. why? tailless dinner jacket was introduced in tuxedo, new york. trend caught on so quickly took the name of the town wit. whether you're going to the wedding or to the oscars or maybe the prom, tuxedo is a handsome choice. out of tuxedo, new york. my friend martha has a steep personal history. martha: throwback thursday, our wedding reception was at the tuxedo club where the tuxedo was invented in tuxedo, new york. i was younger than i am now. my husband was stunning handsome

and still is. bill: i was going to bring in picture of high school prom but it is on microfilm. that didn't work. martha: dig them out for another day. bye, everybody have a great day. jenna: right now, brand new stories and breaking news. jon: there is new word from capitol hill of a short-term deal to raise the debt ceiling after new polls show how americans feel about lawmakers from both parties. a brand new development as prosecutors say an under cover police officer terrorized an suv driver and his family. the officer's attorney now firing back. and could it be, the real cure for a hangover might already be in your fridge? we'll tell you about it. "happening now." a fox news alert. awaiting what could be a game-changing news conference on capitol hill. reports of a potential new offer to avert what some say