somewhere. >> give me the shaker! >> make it a great day, everybody. with the deadline nearing, lawmakers scrambling to reach a deal over the debt ceiling. without one, democrats predicting disaster. >> avoid a potential cataclysm is to pass the budget now. >> it would be dangerous to our economy. >> uncertainty is for any economy. >> crashing the global economy. >> even some ceos and banks saying that no debt deal will be a very raw deal for the economy and the markets. but some here say don't buy it. so who's right? hi, everyone. i'm brenda buttner.

this is "bulls and bears." here they are. we have gary b. smith, jonas farris, john layfield, larry glazer, and sasha burns. larry, failure to reach a deal won't mean the end of the world? >> brenda, enough with the scare tactics. look, i know it's almost halloween. but the american people are sick and tired of being frightened into supporting mindless and endless government spending. look, not raising the debt ceiling is not the same as a default. there's plenty of revenue to make interest and principle payments and to keep our accounts current. this is needless frightening of the american people, and they are not going to stand for it. they are fatigued. >> all right. sasha, are you frightened? >> you know, you're the first person i've heard that has said that with a straight face. am i concerned? no. because i know that at the end of the day, the republicans are going to overcome the mob rule of the tea party and come up with a solution to keep the --

to keep us from defaulting. it is not just democrats saying this. it is ceos, the coke brothers, the chamber of commerce. it's every large business. it's the small businesses that say don't do this short-term six-week relief because then it's right at thanksgiving that we'll have all of the uncertainty. financial apocalypse is what experts call this. >> but, gary b., we don't default if we hit the debt ceiling. we bring in lots more revenue, and we can pay our bills if we prioritize spending. what do you think? >> well, sasha was questioning larry's straight face answer. and i'm kind of questioning why she's questioning that. larry points out we take in a lot more revenue to pay the interest on our debt, almost 10 times the amount. so it's kind of like you get a credit card bill. you might not be able to pay off all of the bills, if you can pay

the interest you can pay that. and then the question becomes, what are you going to do with the rest of your bills? well, like any family, you have to prioritize. that's what i've seen with the government shutdown, if you will. even though everyone thinks the whole government is shut down, we are still paying about 80% of the fees out there, governmentally. it's really only 20% cut down. so we prioritized. maybe with an ax in this case, but we did it. and that's what would happen with the whole debt ceiling. >> jonas, would this hurt the economy, though? >> yeah, because that assumes the government behaves like a rational household or business, and is like, let's just pay the t-bill interest and forget about yellow stone. that's not how it's going to go down. they'll just default for no reason when they could have afforded the payments. they've already said they are going to do that. no industry will be hit harder than financial services if we go over this cliff. for no other reason than, first of all, the whole fdic insurance

they operate under, is that even good anymore if they can't keep raising the debt ceiling? and they are making car loans today at 3%. if all of a sudden their capital costs go to 5% because we are not paying t-bills, their whole business model is upside down. i could be very nervous for the banks as a financial adviser. customers and investors are scared about going over this cliff, real or imagined. >> john, are you scared? >> look, i'm scared about default. i don't think it's going to happen. these ceos were not blaming the republicans. they were blaming all of washington, d.c. remember reagan dealt with the democrats. clinton dealt with the republicans. this administration, there are no adults right now in washington, d.c. take default off the table. do you have the revenue, like larry and gary said, the revenue to take that off the table. the government shutdown is one thing. and that's bad enough. look, the real crime here, don't forget the government shutdown. those federal, furloughed

employees will probably get back pay. those people who have vendors and operators at national parks, they can't pay their rent. this is a crime perpetrated by several people. boehner, reid, and president obama against the small guy out there because they can't get along. it is disgraceful. >> you know, larry, the markets really are hoping and betting that there will be a deal, because they really went up when there was any sign of thawing in the talks between the white house and congress. >> that's right, brenda. well, to jonas' if the market sensed that a default was imminent and the cataclysm was upon us, they would have sold off dramatically. you would have seen armageddon in the bond market. you didn't see that. financials were resilient this week despite the challenging news. i think we recognize the fact that we started with a scary backdrop, a weak economy, and it's yet to really grow. retail sales were slow in september and october well before this even happened.

so we can't attribute all of those things to the fact that there's been a government shutdown. but certainly we know we'll be right back in this situation if we don't address the long-term fiscal challenges. we can't keep spending more money, but we're not going to get out of the hole or out of this debate. and what the american people don't want to hear is another conversation like this. they want to rip the band-aid off and take the pain now and deal with it so we can get the economy moving and not have this as an annual occurrence every time. >> jonas, you said that you were worried about the economy, and that a lot of your clients are worried about the market. do you think the market is going to take a big hit? it has arenn't so far. >> there has been some disruption if you look at it. but in general, nothing horrible has happened because at the end of the day, goldman sachs has more power than the tea party. and they'll decide they want the limit raised, and we're not going to go over it. but the pshychological damage is being done. investigators aren't confident, and don't want to put money into

the market. that's what i worry about, not even a real default, but we psyche ourselves into it. >> well, gary b., what do you think? is the sky going to fall if we hit the debt ceiling? >> i can't speak for jonas' clients, but i'm not seeing the same thing. we just put together a couple of days in the market, the best days we've had in a year almost. what were we up thursday, like 300 points? if there's fear out there and psychological damage that jonas talks about, i'm just not seeing it. if this is psychological damage, i think we're pretty well off right now. >> what do you think? you were frightened earlier. >> i wouldn't say i'm frightened because i'm still going with the fact that some sensible people are going to come together. but we all know that uncertainty is bad for markets, and this whole discussion about the debt ceiling and short-term and this happened two years ago, it's terrible for the economy. you know, you guys know it.

you're republicans but you know it is terrible for the economy. >> gary b. doesn't think so. >> whoa. first of all, don't label me as a republican. i am a proud libertarian, for crying out loud. second of all, i -- maybe it's bad for the economy. i don't think uncertainty as you say, sasha, is bad for the market. the mid caps, i think, and the mdy, this could put it at an all-time high. so the market is performing actually pretty well. i think it welcomes this uncertainty, as long as the government stays on the sideline. >> gary b., i'm going to steal some tape where it's bad for the markets from another show where you schooled me on that. >> please understand who you're talking to when you're calling names. gary is the libertarian. i'm a strong independent. president obama in 2006 said it was irresponsible when bush was raising the debt ceiling. now all of a sudden, he has accrued mountains of debt and says it's irresponsible not to raise the debt ceiling. this is politics as usual in

washington, d.c. there's no leaders or adults. it's disgraceful. >> that's the last word to john layfield. well, you've seen these signs. why the cavuto team says republicans may be panicking because you're not. and despite the shutdown, the irs is still collecting your tax money and still gearing up to enforce the health care law. time to shut that down? vo: two years of grad school. 20 years with the company. thousands of presentations. and one rd earned partnership. it took a lot of work to get this far. so now i'm supposed to take a back seat when it comes to my investments? there's zero chance of that happening. avo: when you work with a schwab financial consultant, you'll get the guidance you need with the control you want. talk to us today. store and essentially they

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like our promise that you won't be dropped. wait, you won't drop me? seriously? that's right, you won't be dropped. i'm gonna call. if you're 50 or over call now to request your free quote. i'm calling. i'm calling. call now to request your free quote and we'll send you a free calculator. call today and make the switch to the aarp auto insurance program from the hartford. we're live from america's news headquarters. shutdown day 12. take a live look at the house floor where congressional lawmakers are debating more mini spending bills to keep parts of the government running. the debt ceiling deadline is just five days away. and the senate is expected to meet a few hours from now to vote on a democratic measure to

raise our borrowing limit through the end of next year. republicans expected to reject it. in the middle east, talks are ongoing over america's military involvement in afghanistan. secretary of state john kerry arriving unannounced in kabul last night. he is now in the third round of meetings with afghan president hamid karzai over keeping troops in his country over the 2014 troop withdrawal deadline. i'm jamie colby. more headlines for you 30 minutes away. right now, keep it on the fox news channel, the most powerful news channel in the nation. after all the glitches, republican senator pat roberts telling health and human services secretary it's time to ditch. he wants her resignation. but is the bigger target the controversy the woman who will be in charge of enforcing the health care law? sarah halli ingram is under fir

for reportedly sharing confidential information with the white house during that targeting scandal. and you say it's time to take the irs out of the health care picture. >> that's right. get rid of all of them. does this surprise anybody that the irs is being used as a political weapon by the obama administration? the obama administration is only the latest administration because they are the ones currently in power. the irs has been used as a political weapon since jay edgar hoover. they have been -- look at what they have done this year. targeting the certain conservative groups. and now sharing confidential information. this is only what we're finding out. so they have been -- you ask anybody. does the irs target people because of political affiliations? and they will tell you yes. you want to put them in charge of bra obama care? that's a horrible idea. >> sasha, do you agree? >> you know, john, if you ask anybody if they think that it's political, then i think that there are a lot of people who was say that it wasn't. maybe not republicans or independents, but i'm sorry, i

did not mean to insult you before. but, no, i -- >> if a republican was in charge, the democrats would say, look, this is politics as usual. it's not partisan. >> there's a joke that some hostage takers said that they think it's hurtful they are being compared to the tea party, which i really like. but that aside, the irs, ingram who is in charge of it, the information that she provided to the white house did not go to political staff. it went to people who are overseeing the implementation of obama care, which had to do with religious information and contraceptive care. so the information was whether or not the organization is religiously affiliated or an actual organization. she did not provide any confidential information. >> gary b., do you think the irs should have any place in the

enforcement of obama care? i mean, there have been scandals. >> i agree with you, brenda. here is the problem. john points out the irs has been used by both sides for quite a long time. i think the problem is with the way that this administration is enforcing obama care, we have already seen the tone and the vindictiveness quite honestly with what we did with the national parks. closing parks that were -- that ran on private money. closing parks where there has not been a national parks service person around for years. i mean, it was horrible and vindictive in order to get their way. look, the irs is a scary organization, whether that's all bluster or whether it's in reality. people are scared of the irs. so you're kind of coming in with a, you know, ss kind of organization to enforce this. i think it's going to be scary for a lot of people. i think it will be vindictive for a lot of people. so this administration makes sure that they are, quote, unquote, right.

>> jonas, do you think there are worse alternatives? >> first of all, let's just say we're a few days away from the extension deadline. if you think i'm going to say anything bad about the irs right now -- >> you're the only one who won't get audited, jonas. >> they are not the ss. they are hard-working, good government servants. but look at -- how else is the federal government going to enforce this? do you not the dea? plan a drone strike over you? how about the fbi? who's left who's better than the irs to enforce it? if it was my ball to play, i would said you're not eligible for medicare until you're 70 and get the irs out of it. but, yay, irs. october 15, look for me, i love you. >> i don't know, larry. maybe nobody should be in charge of enforcing it. >> the only occupation with a lower approval rating than politicians are irs agents. and i'm afraid i'm going to go home and there's going to be an auditor at my first job just for

commenting on this. >> they are furloughed. >> but when you start to concentrate power and give confidential information to one branch of government, and it can be used as a political weapon, it's scary. and you don't know where it's going to end. you have to nip it in the bud, and re-evaluate this enforce. mechanism or we'll have problems later on. i lose sleep over this. i don't like where it's going. >> oh, come on, larry. have a good night's sleep. all right. from detroit to south of the border, what bailed out chrysler just did that may drive taxpayers loco. [ woman ] if you have the audacity to believe your financial advisor should focus on your long-term goals, not their short-term agenda. [ male announcer ] join the nearly 7 million investors who think like you do. face time and think time make a difference. at edward jones, it's how we make sense of investing. and better is so easy withrning you cabenefiber.o something better for yourself. face time and think time make a difference.

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the shutdown may be hitting beer ma

u.s. taxpayers bailed them out, now chrysler is spending $1.2 billion to expand and create jobs in, get this, mexico. now ironically, the car maker still owes u.s. taxpayers $1.3 billion, and gary b., you say told you so. >> exactly, brenda. i think anyone watching this would be outraged. but not outraged at chrysler. look, chrysler did what any good corporate entity should do. they saw a sweetheart deal. they took it. they ran with it. they are going to enhance their own hand. the outrage should be directed at the government. once again, once again, brenda. we sat here years ago and said that government should not bail out private companies. they shouldn't be giving to money to chrysler or any of these companies that they did. they did it. they crowed about it. and now the chickens are coming home to roost. >> well, shouldn't chrysler be using the money that it's

extending to mexico, essentially, and paying us back? >> you know, when i first read this, i absolutely agreed, brenda. and i still don't like it. the bailout is the worst thing that could happen, except all of the other alternatives, right? but the reality is, chrysler llc has paid everything back. the $1.3 billion is about the old company that's left over after they declared bankruptcy. it's not the current one mostly owned by fiat. this is globalization. they have created jobs in the u.s. they have put billions into the u.s. but they also make parts in other countries. toyota makes some here. it's just reality. we might not like it, but it is. >> larry, do you like it? >> i don't like it at all. i'm ashamed, not because i own one chrysler car but i own two ars. look, one of which is a minivan. perhaps i should trade it in and buy a toyota made in indiana because i'll be doing more to help the u.s. economy. look, the unw still owns 40% of

this. for all of you workers, you're effectively outsourcing your own jobs to mexico right now. and the chrysler slogan was imported from detroit. they are going to have to change that, obviously, to imported from mexico going forward. >> john, do you have any trouble with this? >> no, i don't. i'm like gary b. i have a problem with what the government did. remember, the government gave a lot of money to battery makers to put those facilities in the united states. they moved those to china. i had a real problem with that because they didn't enforce that. what the government did here is lose $1.3 billion in the stock buyback or sales to chrysler. they can take their plants wherever they want. this is globalization. what everybody is saying about free markets is like. whether you like the jobs going to mexico or not, if that's the way the company runs best, that's what they should do. >> what should they be doing, jonas? what do you think? >> that was a big fear when the government gave all the money out that they would have this hot phone and be like, your new cars have to be powered by

liquid tofu, and that didn't happen. they didn't put a plant in d.c. where all of the politicians are. they are operating independently. yeah, we lost 10% of our money. that isn't as good as the bank bailout where we made money. but for the government to lose only 10% of their money on any deal, that's a win as far as i'm concerned. they are operating independently. let it go. >> last word to larry. >> perhaps we could have used those 6,500 jobs that were sent to mexico in detroit. after all, chrysler made a commitment after detroit's bankruptcy to invest and hire. that's something that they are clearly not doing in this case. ok. last word. you keep that minivan, larry? all right. >> i'm ashamed on a lot of levels about that minivan. thank you, sasha, for joining us. >> thank you. so here's to proving the hips don't lie for one company, and how it could give you profit to shake four. ♪ [ woman ] i'd be a writer.

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predictions. gary b., what do you like?

>> i've been scouring the universe for stocks for jonas' nervous clients. proctor and gamble is the one i like. the i think the stock is up 30% in the next six months. >> bull or bear? >> i'm a bear by the toothpick not the stock. >> your prediction, larry? >> sweeter than free money from the fed, hershey stock unwraps a 20% profit in six months. >> john, what do you think? you can't not like chocolate. >> love chocolate. but i'm a bear unfortunately on hershey's. >> and your prediction? >> hips don't lie. shakira is now endorsing t-mobile. the stock is up 20% in a year. >> you wanted to see shakira, right? that's all. >> that's the only reason i did that prediction. your prediction, jonas? >> the government shutdown means micro brewers can't get approved to launch, which is good for the macro brews like coors tap up

15% in a year. >> gary b., bull or bear? >> i love shakira. that's all i'm going to say. brewing up a great debate. ca-neil cavu "cavuto on business." shutdown panic because taxpayers aren't panicking. charles payne in for neil cavuto. and so much for all of those cones and barricades because the partial government shutdown getting hyped for bringing the pain doesn't look too painful to a lot of americans. so as life goes on, can america move on with a smaller government? ben stein, david mcdowell, and gary k. >> all evidence is we're a ok. we have hundreds of thousands of furloughs. we're still running just fine. for me, i've been saying it for years. the bottom line is government is an overbloated blob with