market index. that to me, it got kicked hard but now they are coming back. i love emerging markets. >> i love it as well but i love you better. "cost of freedom" continues with the place for business. fox. ♪ ♪ so forget about all the rhetoric and the wrangling in d.c. get to the heart of the debt battle. out-of-control entitlement spending. the biggest chunk of the budget by far. republicans leaders say if we don't deal with it, we will never stop raising the debt limit. some liberal democrats drawing a line in the sand, saying don't touch entitlements ever. so who is right? hi, everybody. i'm david asman. welcome to "forbes on fox." steve forbes, rick unger, mike, bill baldwin, sabrina schaefer, john tandy. $2 trillion out of a $3.5 trillion budget. more than the majority. how do you avoid dealing with it? >> eventually you will have to

deal with it. it won't be done now, simply because there is not a mandate to do it. you set the stage for it; such as, having accounts for younger people in social security, change the delivery of healthcare, do it in a positive way. you set the ground work. you won't make headway with the congress. shoot for 2014 and 2016. >> rick, should entitlements be off the table entirely? >> i don't think they should i'm not one of those liberals. i would love to see the focus shift to where they are look at entitlements in terms of cleaning it up. it should be a constant reform all the time. weed out the people who may take advantage, so we have the money for the people who legitimately need the help. >> let's talk about people taking advantage. federal disability programs are just totally out of control. we have all kind of abuse and fraud. 25% of the cases are called, "inappropriately decided." isn't that a place to start? >> yeah, that would be a place to start. i just don't want the republicans to do it in their typical root canal way where

they talk about deficits and how the country is going to come crashing down. talk about it as an opportunity. say here is a way to pay down social security as in give people a way to opt out of it and have their own personal accounts. here is also a way to grow the economy, to pay off the onerous promises. the problem is republicans get fixated on deficits and voters don't believe them. >> sabrina, we have all the promises that we have made. $60 trillion by the way of unfunded promises that we have made. we have to deal with entitlements at some point. that is at the heart of the debt crisis. >> we do. we spend 60% of the federal program on the program. social security, medicare and medicaid. but we need to do in a way that is strategic. american people want to see the programs survive and do it in a way that does not destroy the economy or crush them with taxation. we did research that found this is a great way to increase popular support for spending restraint in general. by talking about how to reign

in entitlement spending. >> be specific. when you ask the folks in the polls, whether or not debt limit should be tied in to cutting back on spending, 62% say that. only after major cuts are taken care of should the debt limit be raised. >> i think the biggest problem is that there is very little difference right now between democrats and republicans the republicans want to slow down the rate of growth of government spending and entitlement spending and the democrats want to increase the rate of growth. when you mention you have $60 trillion of unfunded liability, most tied to entitlement you need drastic reform. the only way, the only way we'll avoid becoming greece or even like detroit, for instance, is if we do what steve says and empower individuals, give them the tax-free money to take care of their own healthcare and their own savings. otherwise, it will never be fixed. >> we are never going to get a perfect -- this is politics. we are not going to get a

perfect solution. but shouldn't we at least put entitlement on table? >> i think the country could veer off the long, slow, march to greek style bankruptcy if it has a political will. but i'll illustrate what the problem is by describing my campaign for congress. i'm running on a two-part platform. part one is i am going to double medicare taxes. part two, i am going to cut medicare benefits in half. then we'll be solvent. david, how many votes do you think i'll get? >> zero. >> not from steve. he doesn't like taxes and the liberals don't want anything touched. >> steve, this is the point. bill has a round-away way to get there. but the point is a lot of liberals say taxes should go up before entitlement should be cut. are they going to get anywhere with that? >> no. they got the last tax increase in january. that is it for several years. the way to get around the obligations in addition to allowing people to run their own accounts on social security and david, reforming healthcare in a positive way.

that is to grow the economy. when you have assets growing, liabilities become less fearsome. that is what we did in the 1980s. enormously increase the wealth of the nation and pulled out of what looked like a hopeless slump. >> rick, did i see your head shake your head no? >> i'm curious why bill baldwin would want to trade his huge influence on this show to go to congress. what is he thinking? >> vu to deal with what is politically acceptable. in this environment, with the politics back and forth you won't get a perfect solution, right? >> i don't think you will. but i think the american people are polling to be much more conservative than the majority of republicans are. the republicans right now in washington are not conservative by any means. they are big government republicans. at the core -- >> by the way, there are a lot of republicans. there are conservative republicans, moderate republicans. >> john boehner is not a conservative. the majority of power -- mitch

mcconnell is not a conservative by any stretch of the imagination. when i say "conservative" i am talking about empowering people to have their own way with how they want to control their lives and spend their own money. that is the only way we'll get this debt under control. >> sabrina, you are in new york today, glad to see you. but you are from washington. what do you think of this? >> absolutely. one of the best thing to reform entitlements it takes a conversation to a common sense conversation. rather than saying good or bad spending we know americans want entitlements. the question is how best to manage that? this will change the conversation to something much more reasonable. >> but john tamny, do we need something more fundamental, sol -- something to shake the nature of the government're in the throes of now? >> i think entitlement is abomination. why we went down the pathly never know. easy way to get around them is

grove the economy and talk about positive ways for individuals who aren't congenitally socialist to opt out of social security and opt out of medicare and the different government programs. that is how you fix entitlement. it's not by scaring people but showing a people out. >> steve is not congenitally socialist by any means or stretches. but do you think it's possible out of the negativity we can get a positive message, steve? >> easily you can get a positive message. ronald reagan did it in the 1990s. republicans did it in the last government shutdown. do it here and put something positive on the table. young people you control the money instead of washington politicians. that would have a lot of appeal. >> let's leave on a positive note a pray steve is right. with obamacare websites riddled with glitches, forget about open enrollment. try open season for hackers. is your private information at risk? a story that is going to scare you coming right up. ♪

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good morning, everyone. we're live from america's news headquarters. i'm jamie colby. government shutdown day 12. still no deal in sight. the house is meeting right now and the senate will meet later this morning. this is a live look at the house floor. as the debt ceiling deadline looms five days away. the clock is ticking, as president obama warns it would not be wise to flirt with default before the upcoming holiday season. speaking of holidays and tourists and visitors, national parks are starting to reopen despite the government shutdown. one example is the stature of liberty. expected to welcome visitors once again starting tomorrow. after the state of new york says they will shoulder the cost at a price tag of more than $61 tow,000 to -- $61,000 to keep it open. unclear when forry service from new jersey side of the park will reopen. i'm jamie colby. back to "forbes on fox." keep it here on the fox news

channel. the most powerful name in news. well, the healthcare exchange is starting up but not running smoothly. now fears that identity theft could start running rampant. some states issuing public warnings to be careful of scammers posing as the healthcare navigators. john mcafee telling fox business the exchanges are a hacker's dream. should americans should be worried about this? >> they should. in addition to scammers you have officially appointed group like c-co that won the contract in mork and georgia and tennessee and maryland that has been convicted of fraud in the past. the non-profit quarterly called them creative in their fraud creativity. these are the people who are officially running it. they don't submit their own employees to background checks. >> so rick, even people at the top of the food chain are bad. >> here is where you got to be

really careful. i'll tell you a quick story. i happen to use one of the biggest banks in the country. right? my account was robbed. when i talked to the bank and i said how could this happen, how can my account be hacked? you know what they told me? it was an inside job. i said what kind of a background check do you put your people through? absolutely none. we should be careful of hacking in government organizations and private organizations, but to single out these people is ridiculous. if you get a phone call from somebody saying that they are a navigator, navigators don't call out. >> sabrina, we are singling out a program that is invasive in our private lives. that is the problem. if you have a program this massively invasetive, whoever you have enforcing it you have problems like this, right? >> right. of course. look, i mean first of all, a bank is a completely different situation, because this is a private marketplace. so if your bank is utterly fails to protect your identity, then you can choose a different bank. the problem here is that this is run and operated by the

government. the ramifications are really serious. the best case scenario you are financially at risk here. the worst case scenario is medically you are really under some real threat. someone else gets your identity, commingle reports and suddenly you're getting misdiagnosed and mistreated. >> bill, who are these health exchange navigators. a lot of them are the community organizers who might have another agenda. >> really, "nav gator" is a fancy word for organizers. there are some people out there think organizers that help you extract benefit from the government. if we flood the country from organizers we i'll be more prosperous because we'll have more benefit. i have doubts about that. in the long run a couple of billion dollars from stolen credit cards is the least of our problems. how about $1 trillion is banishing and foolish programs. that is an issue. >> more than just money wasted but the fact that people are getting in our private lives.

dealing with healthcare issues. >> the blocking of doing criminal background checks is amazing they wouldn't even go through something basic like that. that's why you will see the rise of and it's happening, the private exchanges like what walgreens is doing and others are doing. they will be the dominant force in the market. one of the ironies of obamacare is we're going to end up with the free enterprise because of the failure of the exchanges and success of the private exchanges. >> john, it's another broken promise that the system is not going to get in our lives. that the individual will still have total control over all the information. >> well, anytime a national government obnoxiously foists a big one-size-fits-all program on the american people there will be waste and fraud and staggering incompetence. the answer to this is not reform. it's to get back to reality. healthcare at its best day should never be something administered on a federal level. i should be cities and states. that way we as individual

voters choose our bliss how much or how little healthcare we want from government. most of us would probably choose very little because we value it. >> waste and fraud and staggering incompetence, rick. >> you know, it's hard to know where to begin. apparently john doesn't like the veterans administtion which is the only healthcare program run by the government. but guys, this is so transparent. it's yet another way to attack a law you don't like. you're maligning people, calling them organizers. these aren't organizers. these are people who went and got trained because they get paid to do this job. they get paid to provide -- >> rich, is that true? didn't the message go out to usual suspects here? >> who are the usual suspects? >> just google ceedeco and look at the history of fraud in the organization. they won four contracts in four states to be the nav gator -- navigator for obamacare. you have seen this before, right? >> the i.r.s. is overseeing

this. i don't know how anyone can sit here and think we're not under a risk for identity theft. this is going to be a disaster and i hope steve is right that this will be the final straw that turns this whole thing on its head. >> we will see. thank you very much. despite the glitches, the "cashin' in" gang says there is one thing on the obamacare website that is clear to see and that is great news! what could that possibly be? find out what it is at the bottom of the hour. but first, right here on forbes with d.c. putting treasured national parks in the middle of the shutdown mess, the forbes gang has a plan to keep them open forever. no matter d.c. does. get this: it will save taxpayers money! that's next. americans take care of business. they always have. they always will. that's why you take charge of your future. your retirement. ♪ ameriprise advisors can help you

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well, the white house reversing itself and now agreeing to let states reopen some national parks but states have to do it with their own money. tourists and private businesses voicing outrage about being locked out of parks across america in the partial shutdown. steve, you have a plan to keep national parks from ever becoming a political bargaining chip again. what is it? >> david, that is to privatize them. if you don't want to privatize the whole thing, privatize the operations so you don't have the shutdowns and make sure you don't have bureaucrats to shut down parts they don't own. the bureaucrats of the national park service wouldn't shut down parks that were being privately operated. this is an outrage designed to raise public opinion ire against what is happening in washington, against the republicans. put it in the hands of people that know how to run them.

>> morgan, privatize the federal parks? good plan or not? >> we have a better chance to privatize the t.s.a. first. it's an american institution. american history, something that has been exported across the world. this idea of national parks. the truth of the matter is the government shutdown, the last one we saw was 17 years ago. they're a rare phenomenon. it didn't even matter in this particular shutdown. we saw the private parks that were closed down with the government shutdown like the parking lot of mount vernon. i wouldn't matter. >> the national parks go back a long time, back to teddy rose vent. >> i wasn't -- teddy roosevelt. >> i wasn't around them. the u.s. forest service, the budget has been axed but they haven't closed any parks because they have over 1,000 parks that are run by private operators. rick will have a heart attack the capitalists are coming but they don't own the land. they charge lower fees to get in. listen, they a lot of capital expenditures here. use the money to fix up the

park, not clean out the bathrooms. >> farming out the duties of the park. >> i was around when teddy roosevelt was around. >> what do you think of mike's idea? >> these are national parks. i don't understand how you can show concern about talk about the national parks and then you want to turn it over to the profit-making enterprises that will make it so expensive that too many americans won't go there. >> why do you think that? isn't government solution more expensive than private solution most of the time? >> these are not solutions. these are keeping the property available for everyone who is an american. >> rich, keeping the parks closed is no solution either. >> no, it's not. rick has a false nightmare, you know, mount rushmore brought to you by wal-mart. it's not going to happen that way. what we are talking about is bringing in enterprising people to manage concessions and keep the doors open. >> steve, what about that? >> it's a combination of public and private.

>> well, doing the operations, go ahead. do a 30-year lease, 50-year lease, something like that. if you don't live up to the contract, you lose it. bring in somebody else who can do it. basic. the thing about the private enterprise, they want to bring people in so they get a lower price rather than gouging you like they do at the airports. >> morgan, i agree with the suggestion we privatize the t.s.a. with regard to the parks itself, what about a combination? public and private. >> i love combination. but even in parks reduce the private organizations running them. the ground with, you know, owned by the federal government. we have still seen the entities close. it doesn't matter in a government shutdown. >> rick, what do you think? >> if you give me the license for the concession in the national park you can change my mind. barring that, no, this worked out pretty well so far. the marks are open. everybody in america enjoys them. it's not costing any more than it would cost to privatize it. >> privatize the operation and let the public own the land. >> do you think it might happen? these thing goes back a long

time. >> never happen. >> rich? >> who knows? indiana had some toll highways and they sold them to a brazilian company. everybody was outraged that the brazillions would take the highways to brazil. i didn't work that way. all they did is manage them. >> happening for 40 years. the u.s. forest service has been doing this for a long time. this isn't like an experiment we never tried before. it's been successful in general. >> you are talk about integral piece of american history. i don't sigh it happening. >> that's the last word. steve, quick. >> part of american history is private enterprise. let free market and free people do it. >> coming up, don't let the wild market swing from the debt debacle get you down. the informers have stocks on the rise no matter what d.c. decides. that's coming up. (announcer) scottrade knows our clients trade

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we are back. the informers have stocks to survive the debt drama. morgan, altria? >> a sin stock. times are tough, people smoke and drink, the maker of marlboro, a cash cow. sinful dividend. >> bill, you like it? >> tobacco is propped up by cartel and i think it will blow up. >> you like manpower. what and why? >> government on both sides of the atlantic are wrecking the market for the full the time employment. that's great for survivors of temps. >> we need the recommendation two years ago from bill when it was clear that obamacare would wreck full-time employment. the stock has done well so i'd avoid it. >> j.p. morgan, bank in the crosshair of the government. >> obama henchmen of attacking it and consistently but the bank will survive. it's cheap and good time to buy. >> run by jamie dimon maybe the best banker in the world.

>> posted the first quarterly loss underneath him. >> that esite for "forbes on fox." thank you for watching. keep it here. the number one business block continues with my buddy eric bolling and "cashin' in." stay tuned. ♪ ♪ it's not only glitches crippling the healthcare exchanges. some say the real problem is the shocking premium they find when they get the law gone. is this the final proof that they can't afford the shutdown. and are we shelling out big bucks for the big bird? will we ever slash our debt? you can expand here. how about expanding over there? how the anti-wal-mart crowd may send wal-mart jobs to china. "cashin' in" on the job starts right now. hi, everyone, i'm eric bolling. welcome to "cashin' in." the