like denim. that's for inviting us into your home tonight. that's it for special report, fair, balanced and unafraid. greta goes trord right now. make it a great weekend. >> this is a first alert. keep your eyes open. this is did deadly serious. do not approach either one of these men. they are extremely dangerous. -- killer using forged documents to get free. judge perry is the judge from the casey anthony trial. is he going go "on the record." shannon butler is live with the very latest and horribly dangerous story tonight. shannon? >> not only did these two.

[broken audio] >> came all the way here to original county -- committed those crimes. they walked into the orange county jail and they registered as felons. that is required by law. they walked in, they met with a deputy. they signed a book and then they took a picture and then still nobody realized that these two men should not have been out and they should not have been on the run. >> shannon, have they been spotted at all? any place? any sightings? >> well, the sheriff,y demmings a half an hour ago. tips come into the sheriff's office spotted one of these men back here in orange county. he still believes these men are here. 72 hours or so. they say they have been working on this case looking for these men. they say they have had enough information where they believe they could still be here. it's hard to believe that

would actually be the case with all the attention nationally that these guys are making right now. but, still, the sheriff thinks that they are pretty close to home. he has got everybody on this case right now. he is not pointing fingers, he told us. -- [broken audio] >> they have no idea what the next move -- >> shannon, i knows it it sounds pretty weird stick around. years from doing criminal defense work, they always go home to their area. they don't take off from mexico or some place else. they are dangerous. probably armed, but they probably likely are not going too far. shannon, thank you. and you know two of the people smack in the middle of those forged documents. two key players in the casey anthony trial. >> it seems jeff ashton's name was on the first document. >> if this theoretically had come across my desk, i would have asked my judicial assistant to say why is jeff

ashton filing this motion in the middle of the casey anthony trial? >> second time it was judge perry himself who had had his signature falsified. >> somebody had to help them. they alone could not do this in franklin -- i think someone outside helped them. >> the point is they could be anywhere by now. >> judge perry joins us. boy, judge, first of all it's nice to see you, sir. secondly, this is a first, forging judge's documents. do you think they had help from the outside? >> it is quite evident that they had to have help from the outside because somebody walked into the orange county courthouse and filed those documents with the clerk of the court. >> judge, i don't know -- >> -- it certainly was not one of them. >> judge, i don't know what the rules are in florida, but these men have served a significant amount of time, and after a significant amount of time a judge loses

authority to reduce a sentence. is that the case in florida had you even signed it you wouldn't have the authority to do this? >> well, that's the to modify a sentence. you can reduce an illegal sentence at any point if it is illegal in florida. >> and is there any indication that these two both in prison for murder, any indication that either one of them had an illegal sentence? >> there was absolutely no indication. if you look at the paperwork, the basic allegations are that they were charged with murder in the first degree. that the jury came back with lesser included offenses of third degree murder and a 15-year sentence was the maximum possible sentence that they could obtain, and that despite all of that, a judge sentenced them illegally and the -- what was curious about it was those cases went on appeal to the appellate courts and

they were affirmed. and those issues, if they were, in fact, true, would have been raised at the appellate level. they were all bogus documents. >> is there any indication that the documents that -- the false signature, your false signature that the same person signed it or does it look like, you know, that there has been sort of free-lancing and others are using your signature? >> what happened, greta, in my estimation, is they pulled one of the many documents that i have signed, probably went on the web site, pulled them off orders i had signed in the case of casey anthony, photo shopped, lifted the signature off a document and placed it on their document. that's the most logical thing to explain what happened. it's hard to understand how the correctional system got duped. that's what i don't get. i understand the theft of your signature and i

understand signature out there. sign public documents every sings gel day. that's not the surprise. but how does the correctional system get duped so easily? it's quite evident whoever examined those documents did not examine those documents with a fine tooth comb, did not verify that those documents were, in fact, genuine, did not question anything since these cases had been affirmed on appeal and just went about releasing them. the ironic thing was mr. jenkins, in may, during the casey anthony trial, made his first attempt to be released with another judge signing forged document and then followed up in august of this year and bingo, this time he hit the lotto and he got out. >> did either one of these defendants ever appear in

your court or do they just use your name? >> they just used my name. i have never had anything to do with either one of these two defendants in those two particular cases. which is another red flag for someone. >> it also -- i don't know about the system in florida. usually when you leave like there is a long process. not just one person can sign you out on a signature. >> well, what happened was orders came into the clerk's office. they were processed and forwarded directly to the department of corrections. they got them. they reviewed them, and they released them. >> well, i think heads are going to roll. and, judge, thank you very much for joining us. of course, they also forged the prosecutor jeff ashton's name as well in the documents. but i'm sure you will get to the bottom. judge, thank you. nice to see you, sir. >> take care, greta. >> and straight ahead, we are just learning there are new developments tonight in the cyber bullying case. the one leading to the 12-year-old girl plunging to her death from a tower.

those new developments are coming up. plus the 13-year-old boy who is actually caught in the middle who dated both the bullying suspects and that 12-year-old victim is here coming up. but, first, there is more. more bad news tonight for the obama care exchange. they must really be flipped out at the white house tonight with the latest news. we will tell you what it is coming up. and you? well, you can hash it out with us. do you think the obama care web site glitches will ever be fixed? and will they be fixed by the 2014 midterm election? tweet right now hash tag greta.

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>> what i intend to do, is continue standing with the american people to work to stop obama care because it isn't working. >> the people who are responsible for making it work are hard at work, fixing the problems that need to be fixed. >> they got some work to do. >> this should have been something that they should have, you know, rehearsed and run some test cases. >> nobody is more insistent that that work be done and the experience being proved than the president. >> but tonight you might have suspected this one. well, did you? a whole new set of problems for the obama care web site. "wall street journal" reporter -- joins us. nice to he see you. >> thank you for having me. >> you don't use the word glitch. >> they are flaws at this stage that one somewhat beyond the initial gamut. we seen where people are struggling to get on. that could be resolved by capacity. at this point when people are gling to get through the

account verification stage, struggling with the data that's going on to the insurers and that's coming out to be inaccurate in some cases it, seems like they are growing in size. >> i was reading your work in the "wall street journal" people having trouble getting on the web site. even those that get the web site, the information gets turned over to the insurance companies and that is where the real sort of all hell is breaking loose? >> well, right now it's not breaking loose because very few number of people are getting to that end stage. the insurers in many cases manually checking what is dozens of applications because they can do that. in those they are seeing problems. people signed up for three accounts. people signed up for accounts with three spouses intended to be depends denied. that's raising some eyebrows. when the volume increases and earlier problems are solved, assuming they are, this is going to be the next big problem. >> what's being done to correct this? >> the administration says it's working 24/7. the president has directed hhs to correct it democrats are sounding loud alarms in the sense of you are general sismt the administration

says it has a plan and working on a time line to get this fixed as soon as possible. that said, there haven't been specific details about what that plan entails. >> are they concerned? we get the public face everything is fine and worked out. behind the scenes, are they worried? do they recognize this is more cataclysmic than they might otherwise be saying publicly. >> publicly you are starting to hear the administration acknowledge these go beyond a few hiccups these got booted from the early site in the early days these are too popular and bigger problems. >> you have met any group of people who say this is terrific? this is working great? fine for me? >> the people who are signing up, successfully doing it are very committed to signing up. they often go through several hours. even people still stuck in the system we have talked to committed to seeing it through. that said, those are people who really value having health insurance. they may have it already and switching over to individual plans or may be sick and know they are going to need it. one of the things that the insurers have been worried about are these the people

who make it through and younger people more casual to their approach to it in the early years and penalties relatively low don't make it through the final. >> big problem, we need the healthy young ones to sign up and pay into the system to support the sicker and old oar. >> right. the way insurance prices changes next year not based on medical history. >> nice to sigh. >> thank you. >> coming up, cyber bullying drives a 12-year-old girl to despair. she jumped to her death. tonight, there is stunning news about the mother of one of the bullying suspects. we'll give that to you. young boy caught in the middle of this tragic teen suicide. he dated both the suspects and 12-year-old girl who jumped to her death. a lot of strange things in the courtroom. i must confess i have never seen a bathtub. why did murder tore his wife drag a bath it tub to the middle of the court? we'll have the report coming up. as your life changes, fidelity is there r your personal economy, helping you readjust along the way,

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is there any chance this could happen where you work? can you imagine a coworker getting fired for saving a woman who is getting assaulted? now, that is what happened to a wal-mart employee. he went from hero to jobless. here is what happened. christopher oswald says he heard the woman screaming in the parking lot and raced over to help. he was able to jump on top of the man who was assaulting the woman but then, two other men jumped oswald from behind, police finally arrived to stop the violence and after all that, wal-mart firing oswald for violating a work place violence policy. >> i never expected all of this. and the least i expected was to not have a job. i don't even know what to put on an application but all of this. how do i say defended. i'm always going to act the right way and do the right thing even after all of this. >> so now you be the judge. is wal-mart right to fire oswald or is wal-mart off its rocker? go to gretawire.com and vote

in our poll. and coming up, breaking news in the case of the 12-year-old driven to suicide by bullies. the latest from florida next. eye

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visit floodsmart.gov/pretend to learn your risk. >> this is a fox news alert. there is new information tonight in the case of the 12-year-old girl who jumped to her death from a tower. after months of online bullying tonight, the mother of the 14-year-old bullying suspect now under arrest herself. police say vivian is caught on video punching children in an unrelated case. a short time ago the polk county florida sheriff announcing the mother's arrest. >> vossburg was charged criminally today with two counts of child abuse, which is a third degree felony. and four counts of child neglect. what occurred was simply

this: there was two boys fighting on the bed. and as you could see, vivian rushed in and immediately started beating one of them with her fist. >> now vossburg says she was trying to break up fight. and also tonight, the 13-year-old boy caught in the middle of the bullying case is speaking out. you are about to hear from this teen who dated one of the bullying suspects and the 12-year-old victim. but, first, here is how the cyber bullying led to a 12-year-old girl's suicide. >> i came here and saw that a 12-year-old child, a baby, younger than some of my grandchildren, jumped off of this tower to her death. and i wanted to know why. and i found out why. >> investigators say that 12-year-old rebekah sedwic was bullied so relentlessly that she took her own life. >> told several times she needed to adapt her surroundings. she needed it develop a

thicker skin. she just needed to ignore them. it's kind of ig hard to ignore when it follows you constantly. >> i think about her almost like every day knowing that she had gotten bull idea. i could have stopped it. >> it's just so hard. >> 13-year-old john borgan joins us along with his mother. welcome to beth of you. and, john, first to you, what do you make of this bullying? >> actually, i don't like the bullying, so that's why i try to start a movement for, you know, for bystanders to speak up. >> yvonne, how did you hear about this horrible tragedy? >> i heard -- i mean, everything started when they went looking for her.

>> it's like when you spend time together, you know. text and call each other, you know. do fun stuff, you know. >> did you know that your former girlfriend was being bull idea? did you hear anything? did you hear people saying mean things about her? >> no. actually did i not know anything about it and your other girlfriend who has been charged with this. you know, what's she like? >> the 14-year-old, she is nice, you know. she is sweet. she is fun to hang out with. but, like i never expected

this from her. >> you know, on one of the facebook pages of one of the two arrested. there was a reference and it was actually rather crude, i will just clean it up a little bit that she didn't care that rebekah committed suicide. does that sound like your friend? >> no. i thought somebody got into her facebook, you know, just thought it was a joke to put something online. you know, but then when i heard that she was getting charged for it it, you know, there was like second thoughts that maybe it was her, you know. >> and in terms of rebekah, the child or the teen who jumped from the tower, what was she like? >> she was sweet. she was funny. she was pretty, you know. she was fun to hang out with. we would have like weird conversations, you know. >> was there a bad break up? was there jealousy between your new girlfriend and your old girlfriend? >> no. there was no jealousy.

it was not about breakup. she had went to it a home school. that's why she told me she was going. and then they didn't attend to crystal lake middle school. and i guess and then we had separated. >> and, is there any reason did she go to get home schooled because she was getting in trouble at school? did you hear anything like that? >> that question, did i not know. she just told me that she was going to home school. >> yvonney, are parents now paying more attention to bullying and looking at facebook and twitter after this horrible problem in your community? >> i'm sorry. what was the question again? >> are parents now looking at twitter and looking at facebook pages of their kids in light of what's happened? >> yes. yeah. i think they are. >> john, this is tough and i know that you wanted to put a spotlight on this cyber bullying. and, you know, i hope -- i

know you are speaking up now and i know you are spiking up at school? >> yeah. i'm trying to, you know, make everybody know like to know like if they are bystanders watching getting bull idea they have got to tell somebody or they are the victim getting bullied, they have got to tell somebody. that's why i want to speak up. i want them to know that i'm doing it and i'm not getting hurt in any something some sort and they can do it without getting hurt, you know. >> good for you, john. thank you both for joining us. yvonney, john, thank you both. >> you are welcome. >> you are welcome. coming up, i have never seen this, a bathtub in a courtroom. why are the doctors using a bathtub in the trial of a doctor accused of murdering his wife. dr. michael baden here. something peculiar about the woman's body. woman's body. back open for business, sort of. there is news about that

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this is a fox news alert. shep smith is at the fox news desk with breaking news, shep? >> greta, we are sad to report that the florida of the family congressman bill young has just confirmed to fox news that the longest serving republican member of congress has died this evening at the age of 82. congressman was -- is the longest serving republican of any kind in the senate or the house. he is the third longest serving member of congress, period. was elected to florida's 13th district, which includes st. petersburg and clearwater in 1971. the family statement reads u.s. representative c.w. bill young passed away this evening at the walter reid national military medical center in the company of his family. the cause of death was complications related to a chronic injury. information on services will be for the coming. again, that's from the young family. he represented the florida west coast district that includes st. petersburg and

clearwater and parts of st. petersburg. announced on october the 9th that he would not be running for re-election in 2014 because of his poor health. and because he wanted to spend more time with his family. he expressed disappointment over the current political dead lock in congress in an interview that came just last week with the tampa bay times newspaper. he is the powerful chairman of the house appropriations committee who still chaired the defense subcommittee he had been recuperating from a back injury at walter reed medical center where he died tonight in the presence of his family. representative bill young dead at 82. i know you are friends with the family. in fact i'm told you just got off 00 phone his wife. our hearts and thoughts go out to all of them. >> he know how it is in this town you get to know a lot of people, shep. during the commercial break and "on the record" my phone rang i saw it was congressman young's wife she is deeply as you might imagine distressed. i have talked to her the past couple days. whole family has been there

he i think he fell and broke his hip and complications from his hip in the last darius. i -- day or so. i guess what bill young would want to be known for tonight and wants to be deserves devotion to the military. big hero to the defense department. all the members of the military. he fought hard to make sure that they get as much as they could or needed to do their jobs. his wife is deeply devoted as well. but i know that the family has been around him the last couple days. this has been agonizing. we mistakenningly reported yesterday that he had died and that was just a mistake. and he was gravely ill. and has been, you know, in a coma for the the last 24 or 36 hours. can i tell you as any family, they are deeply distressed tonight. they loved father, the husband, and, you know, it's sad watching whether you are republican or democrat. it's always hard when you lose an icon. someone who has been such a huge part of washington i should say, shep. >> no question. such an important district

down there in clearwater and parts of saint pete and florida's 13th. when you have served for that long, greta, anybody in washington knows with tenure comes a lot of clout and he had it. >> he sure did have it. he liked to exercise it, too. some of the people have been around the block for a while here. you know, they do like to exercise it. but, always the military for him. it was his -- you know, a big thing for him. and also for his family. i mean, he spread that feeling throughout his family. you know, so it was actually, you know, it was tough getting that phone call when i saw that phone call during the break. but he has been sick. and he fell -- i think he fell and broke his in. i think that this was -- you know, any family in this country has gone through this where you sit around the hospital bed for days and days and days for the inevitable. it's none the less when it finally does happen, your heart is broken, shep? >> how could it not be? our best to his family and all those in florida's 13th. and i know you will miss him as well, too, greta. we will get back to you as

breaking news happens from the news deck. back to you. >> shep, thank you. now to a bizarre day in court. a bathtub takes center stage in the courtroom. yes, a bathtub. it was used today by the prosecution against the utah doctor on trial for the murder of his beauty queen wife. in 2007, michelle mcneil was found dead in her bathtub and today neighbors testifying about finding the murder victim. >> there was a knock on my front door and i could tell it was a kid's knock because we get a lot of kid's knocks. we were in the front room. i went to the front door and it was ada. and she just said my dad needs some help. i could hear martin yelling that he needed help. i need some help, i need some help. so i started running. ada was just -- stayed behind. but i started running and went into the house and followed martin's voice. and when i came in, to the bathroom, i could tell that we needed to call 911. >> what's your problem, sir? >> problem fallen in the

bathtub. >> who is in the bathtub? >> my wife. >> okay. is she conscience? >> she is -- >> it appeared he was giving mouth to mouth and listen and when to continue chest compressions. it appeared that he had his face over her face, yes. >> did you ever see the mucous that was on michelle's face on anybody else? >> i don't recall seeing it on anybody else. >> while you were working on her chest compressions, did you stop while martin was doing mouth to mouth? >> did i. >> did you ever see or feel michelle's chest rise during those breaths? >> no, i did not. >> were you able to see michelle's face? >> yes. >> you can describe that? >> i could see stitches in her face that were bleeding just a little bit. and she had a lot of mucous underneath her nose. >> and can you describe the mucous? >> kind of a greenish yellow, a lot of it. >> okay. will you describe michelle's

skin? >> she was gray. >> my name is ray or monday, i currently work for the london police department. >> what you can tell us about how her body felt to you. >> cold, cool to the touch and she was wet. >> for the latest in the courtroom we go live to fox salt lake city reporter ben -- before i ask you for the latest. i want to correct myself. i referred to the wife as a, quote, murder victim. this has not even been established as a murder. maybe natural causes of some conflict among the medical reports. but anyway, tell me what is the latest? >> well, the latest right now is that that bathtub really was the star witness of today's trial as neighbors testified and were actually asked to show how they found michelle mcneil, where she was in that bathtub to the six man, five woman jury. they were describing how they -- the efforts they made to try to save michelle mcneil, they were prosecutors trying to

insinuate that dr. mac neil faked cpr on his wife. testimony after testimony after testimony say dug you see him performing mouth to mouth? s was he actually giving mouth-to-mouth resuscitation efforts or did you see her chest move up and down. the officer finally testified when he took over, he gave mouth to mouth and then some fluid finally starting coming out of michelle macneil but that was the only time. >> in terms of family members, anyone in the courtroom at least two were adult daughters testifying again against him. >> there may be several of his daughters that ultimately end up testifying and they have been kicked out of of the court because of the exclusionary rules so the testimony isn't tainted. but, michelle mac neil's family members have been in court. her sisters have had a presence. a steady presence at just about every court hearing as this began. >> and the jury, what's the composition of the jury, men/women? >> it is six men and five women.

they appear to be very attentive at least for the initial onset of the trial. they have been taking notes. we have been watching their heads moving back and forth and back and forth between the attorneys for both sides and the witnesses. the jurors have also been asking questions of the witnesses, just kind of giving an idea of how engaged they are. some of the questions quite insightful, prompting attorneys to ask follow-up questions. >> ben, thank you. and it is not enough that she died in the bathtub, has an awful husband who is cheating with a woman named gypsy to get a conviction prosecutors have to prove an actual murder. prosecutors say michelle macneil was drugged and drowned. defense heart disease. the medical examiner cause of death is undetermined. pathologist dr. michael baden joins us. nice to see you, sir. >> hi, greta. >> where are we on this death? was it murder or not? how does a jury sort this one snout. >> well, the district attorney feels it's murder. part of the problem is that

three forensic pathologists have examined the body or the records. two for the state of utah and one for the family. none of them have come down with a manner of death being homicide. the part -- other part of this question is that normal adults, whether healthy or not healthy do not die of natural causes with their clothes on in the bathtub. it doesn't look natural. there hasn't been proof, scientifically that it's murder, but the district attorney must have a lot of evidence to put this forth without a homicide or murder classification by his own medical examiners. >> have you ever seen a trial or heard of a trial where there is a conviction where there was no medical examiner testifying that the cause of death was a homicide? >> it can happen. but it's very hard for district attorney to convince a jury that there

is no reasonable doubt if there own medical examiner doesn't arrive at a question -- at a conclusion that it is a homicide. >> can't you by examining the body for starters. you can tell whether or not she drowned or whether she died from some sort of cardiac arrest? can you at least make that determination? >> yes. we don't know what the autopsy report is yet. that will be coming in and we don't know what the toxicology is yet. but there have been -- the first cause much death was natural heart disease. the second cause of death was heart disease and overdose of drugs. and the third was undetermined. so, we're in a bit of a quandary. i think when the medical examiner testifies and brings in the autopsy findings, none of them mention drowning. found in the bathtub, found in the water and under three

medical examiners say drowning there must be more to this. >> baden, thank you. >> thank you, greta. >> a bathtub brought into the court. you don't see he that every day. did the unusual display help the prosecution or did it hurt? legal panel is here next. the white house back open for business, sort of. whitetours? how did that happen? find out next. before they sat down, one more time, just for themselves. before the last grandchild. before the first grandchild. smile.

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now get ready to speed read your way through the news. first to it 1600 pennsylvania avenue. the white house office announcing it will possibly resume white house tours for the past seven months there have been no white house tours because of the sequester cuts. now limited tours are set to start again on november 5. manhunt in florida. two murderers escape from prison using forged document toes to get free. the forged signature from belvin perry in the casey anthony trial. the sheriff believes the killers are still in florida. air marshall under arrest. is he accused of taking cell

phone pictures up women's dresses. air marshall taking the photos as women boarded the southwest airline flight in nashville. is he charged with disorderly conduct and that's tonight's speed read. new purina one true instinct has 30. active dogs crave nutrient-dense food. so we made purina one true instinct. learmore at purinaone.com they always have. they always will. that's why you take charge of your future. your retirement. ♪ ameriprise advisors can help you like they've helped millions of others. listening, planning, working one on one. to help you retire your way... with confidence.

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now back to the murder trial of utah dr. mcneil accused of drowping his wife in the bathtub. mistress whose wife name is gipsy. with us now is jim hammer and here in washington defense lawyer ted williams. i will go right to ted. ted has been the first out of gate about the difficulty the prosecution will have. no cause of death? >> i heard in the last segment, dr. michael baden who is one of the most famous pathologists in this world. one thing couldn't tell you is the cause or manner of death. >> you know what? if i bet if he exhumed her and did an investigation he could because he is unique and he is better than anybody else. but go ahead. >> i would agree with you. we are stuck with what we have here. and the first mder examiner said national causes. the other one said natural

causes and a drug. the other one said something about drowning. the fact of the matter about it is you can't convict this creep. i would like to call him dr. creep for all the things he is doing. you can't convict him of a murder without showing that there is some evidence that he did it and i don't see the evidence at this junction, greta. >> jim, your turn on it? >> well, i just remind someone named scott peterson here on death row in california. convicted and it will be hopefully upheld on appeal. listen, because the medical examiner hasn't found it a homicide it, makes it a hell of a tough case. i agree with that. >> thank you. >> it shouldn't stop a prosecutor and it wouldn't stop me if i thought this guy was guilty. it is moveable. it will be a tough case. today an as an example. if the jury believes he was faking cpr. let's take that for example. that gets you a lot closer to murder. piece by piece case. not a smoking gun case it is provable but a testify case. >> what i think about, this

regardless of what happens, i doubt that he is going to take the witness stand. i have no idea if he is going to. he has a right not to. innocent people' exercise right as well as guilty ones. i suspect that if he is found guilty in, those adult daughters who really don't like him and really believe he murdered their mother will bring a civil case assuming that they represent the estate estate of the mother. then they will put him under oath in a deposition and this is going to go on and on and on. i'm also going to tell you one other thing, we he decided it live stream the trial on gretawire on monday so people can actually watch this. >> i think it's good that people are going to be able to watch this. again, i'm looking for this creep. i want some evidence. if he murdered this woman. but, you know, they brought in a bathtub. i mean, hey, wait a minute. he saw her in the bathtub. he raced in. her body in the position of that body would not be the same. i don't understand. and the witnesses. they brought in the neighbors. the neighbors were in inconsistent. this is has been over since 2007. can you expect

inconsistencies. >> jim, i will give you a chance to ena. >> it's. this and i prosecuted a bunch of homicide cases we have all been around the criminal justice. the scariest case for prosecutors and police officers is sort of the perfect murder. this guy came close to perhaps committing the perfect murder. if you you do it alone and do it with drugs. you you don't have other witnesses you are stuck with trying to prove and convince the jury that he set the whole thing up. again, it's a tough case, but he shouldn't get away with it because it's a tough case. somebody has got to go after this guy. i think he looks guilty. >> i think that the viewers should go to gretawire on monday begin watching the live stream so can see for themselves what's going on in the courtroom. tuesday i'm told. gentlemen put it up. coming up a heart breaking and maybe financial breaking decision for small business. is obama care strangling the small business? and is there anything that they can do? the owner coming up.

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many business owners across america now face a tough choice, it has to do with obama care. are they better off paying rising insurance costs for all their workers or paying the penalties? or is either choice a financial killer debbie and larry, owners of north georgia staffing join us. good evening both of you. >> good evening. >> hello there. >> debbie, first to you, what kind of business do you have and how many employees do you have? >> oh, we have a traditional staffing company. we do all phases of staffing. and we have currently we have around 18 staff members. inside staff members. and we have 450 to 500 employees outside working. >> and, larry, as i understand it under obama care, even though you have enormous must be number of temporary workers even though they calculate it obama care. pass the threshold of 50; is that correct? 50 full time employees? >> we he will pass that very easily. with the 450 employees out working now, we have to

calculate their hours to determine how many would be called equivalent full-time employees. and we anticipate that number should be about 200 to 250. >> and using that mathematics, sir, roughly, debbie, is that if under obama care your choices, these are very rough numbers, a fine would cost you guys $400,000 and to provide healthcare under obama care would be 2 million? >> i think that's probably a worse case scenario. because we're not exactly sure. it depends on, i think the uncertainty is still out there. so we're not exactly sure what it is going to be because we don't have all the costs yet for what it is going to cost us to pay the premiums. i think that's what we're waiting on currently. >> larry, do you have some sort of program availability now for your full-time

and/or temporary? >> we have a fully funded plan for our own 18 employees staff. currently. we also have what is called indemnity plan for our temporary employees. that indemnity plan won't qualify under the. coverage plan. i'm not aware of any carrier right now who would underwrite a fully funded plan, major medical plan for temporary staffing firms. >> okay. debbie, so what do you think -- debbie, let me ask you you, what do you think about obama care and what's this going to do to your business? what do you expect? >> well, and it's hard to anticipate because we're not totally sure, but what, you know, we do have a business to run. and it's like all of businesses in america, to be able to run it properly, do you need to know what your

costs are going to be. so at this time we don't know. and that's what -- every place we try to find information, it's hard to find out what's going ohappen. and i think and staffing companies is a little bit different than just your regular corporations. because of our -- we have a constant you know our numbers change daily. so it's a little bit more challenging. ways and hats handle it. >> larry, we only have 30 section left. literally 30. are you worried about your business? >> we're very concerned right now. i don't think that we are worried to this point because we have got a year's grace period until january of 2015. i'm hoping that the market will shake some things out relative to benefit plans that could help its in the long run. it's too early to. >> to tell.

>> anticipate, yes. >> let me thank both of you. come on back as we learn more. thank you, viewers for being with us tonight. we will see you again monday night. right here at our new time 7 p.m. eastern. go to gretawire.com. the o'reilly factor is on. tonight. >> james, i think we are done here. thanks. >> white house spokesman jay carney refusing to answer fox news correspondent james rosen's questions about benghazi. but why? tonight, we will tell you. >> this really is a disastrous launch for a program that i supported. >> obama care continues to be pounded by the very liberals who are in love with it we will continue our investigation into the healthcare chaos. ♪ that no one knows ♪ what does the fox say. >> why are hundreds of millions of people all over the world looking at this dopey vehicle.