our stage manager is right there. and i think it's time for a little payback. >> no! >> go to basspro.com for more of this. sound the alarm. because americans are fired up. not just over broken obama care promises, but over obama care forcing people to buy coverage they don't need, like maternity care. well, man up, says a top democrat in the senate. >> somebody said, well, gee, now i've got -- i have to take this policy that covers maternity care. but my wife and i aren't having any more children. and i got to thinking about that. i thought, well, you know what? maybe because my wife and i don't have any more children, and they're grown up, maybe i shouldn't have to pay property taxes to pay for my local schools. we're better than that in this

country. we're talking about being a part of our society. same way with health care. it is a value system. >> so what do you think? is he right? buying medical care you don't need is part of america's value system? hi, everyone. i'm brenda buttner. this is "bulls and bears." and here they are, the bulls and bears this week. gary b. smith, tracy byrnes, jonas max ferris, john layfield, and david mercer. john, paying for maternity care or other coverage you don't need is all part of america's value system? >> not part of the america i understand. it's part of a socialist system. if that's how you want to view health care, that it's a right, that you don't have to pay for it. we pay taxes to pay for defense. it's not fair to compare it to health care where people have the ability to pay for what they use. how about we take the 65% homeownership right now and have

them pay a double mortgage or extra mortgage to pay for the 35% who don't have homes? where does this end, and where does it -- somewhere, we realize health care is not necessarily a specific right. >> well, the problem is, david, that you are paying for things you may not necessarily need, and it's costing more too. is that part of the value system? >> well, i believe that the whole objective of the affordable care act is to lower costs overall to the economy and to individuals. but secondly, with regard to the obama care and what it affords in terms of benefits, look, insurance itself, none of us may need -- a lot of us may not need to have a payout on our insurance, but we still pay for it and we may never use it. but the time may come when a catastrophic event occurs, an accident occurs, or a diagnosis comes where that needs to be

covered under obama care or the affordable care act. and so whether you want it or you think you'll need it or whatever, at least the american people know that everybody is getting covered and has access to universal health care. and that is the overall goal of health care. >> david, i'm pretty sure john layfield doesn't need maternity care. just going with that. >> nor do i need maternity care. but i don't mind paying for it as part of my overall insurance premium. >> but the analysis to property taxes is wrong. you get to vote. as a matter of fact, i just went to the voting booth this weekend and voted on stuff happening in my area. and i get to move if i don't want to pay taxes. i can move to florida or texas where kroi don't have to deal w this stuff. i think it's wrong to pull an analogy like this. you can't even compare apples to oranges here. >> but, tracy, you can pay the fine and not get insurance if you don't like it. and then --

>> that's not the -- >> gary b., you go to florida or texas, you have property taxes. but you can move to a different school district where they may have higher or lower taxes. there is some choice there. is there a choice with obama care? >> well, not as i see it, although i can now tell -- i can see the left's new spin, which david revealed, where you can opt out of it. that's a new one. i'll give him that. i guess i have not thought that i can just say, hey, i'm not going to -- >> that's not an out. >> but i had not heard that from your side, so i guess that's part of it. but on the other end, i suppose if a vast majority of people opt out of it, the whole thing crumbles then anyway because there's not going to be enough money paying in. but that's besides the point. on the property tax issue, you're right, brenda. you have to pay it virtually everywhere, unless you live in an apartment or something like that. but the other -- the flip side of the property tax is, in

theory, you get back value. i live in a high property tax area. the public schools are good. but the property itself should be worth more than in an area where the property taxes are a little bit lower. as far as, you know, david mentioned, well, you're paying in and you might not need this stuff in the insurance, yes, but with regular insurance that you purchase on the private market you can opt what things to get. you can choose a super high deductible if you want. this is a kind of one size fits all. it's forced on everyone down a path which according to all the polls most people don't really like. >> jonas, what do you think? is this part of the american value system to pay for these things that we may not necessarily need? >> unfortunately, i actually think tom harken put it better than obama put it. the rationale for it. first of all, we could have voted out of it. you could have voted for romney and the senate and it would have been turned around. so the majority voted for extending and having this ridiculous rule. so we can't complain.

that is america. my up to just voted for a new stadium in the town that i have to pay for. i don't have kids, and i do not care about the sports in the community. but i overpaid for the house because the property values were inflated because of the great school in the town. unfortunately, that's america. you have to pay to pay for other people who can't afford. >> wait a minute. john -- >> let me finish. most americans can't afford school. 1/3 of americans can't afford school. it would be like $20,000 a kid. so everybody has a house. and we disproportionately charge the bigger homeowners, not the people with most kids, to pay for your kid to go to school because you can't afford private school. i don't like it, but that's how it works. >> john, basically, you can move if you don't want to pay for that stadium. but with obama care, there is no choice. we are increasingly seeing there is no choice. >> no. there is no look, we also pay taxes and that

pays for the salaries of 535 congressmen and that benefits absolutely nobody in america. so there is a precedent for this. look, we are being forced to pay this. and where does this end? where does it end that we're going to be repaying this thing? the reason i'm going to have to pay for maternity coverage whether i opt out or not, it's going to be baked in somewhere, because you're covering people through subsidies who cannot afford the health care insurance. that's an economic argument. but where does that end? does it end in disability, long-term unemployment insurance? at what point do we ask people to pay their own way when they are able? and that is a basic difference and ideology in the way that most people that believe in free markets see america as socialists see america. >> but i think that's the thing. there's no escape, right? i could go and research property taxes in florida and go live down there if it bothers me so much that i pay exorbitant amounts in new jersey, and sometimes i feel like i get nothing out of it.

but i choose to live here. i can't choose out of obama care, right? i mean, i have no choice. and i think that's the problem that everybody has. >> david -- >> you have different plans through obama care and through the exchanges, which you should research to get one that covers what your needs are. >> really, david? >> we could take the whole half-hour on that. gary b., take it away. >> brenda, i could almost agree with senator harken if the greater good value system was going to benefit everyone. but from what i am seeing right now, at the end of obama care, we'll actually have less people insured and overall we'll be paying higher premiums. so i'm not understanding -- ok. we got this forced market. if everyone was insured and premiums came down, i would say, ok, yeah, it worked out. it doesn't look like we're heading down that path. we'll be in worse shape than we are, which makes it doubly

annoying. >>s that that has to be the last word. the health care law enforcers back under fire. why the irs is giving $4 billion to. it could give taxpayers a stroke. spongebob gets the ax. but it's what he does next that could create a sea change. >> you see, i've been doing some calculating and crunching the old numbers. and it turns out that i'll save a whole nickel if i cut your salary completely. you're canned. here's your pink slip. i'm giving you the ax. you're fired! we gave people a sticker and had them show us. we learned a lot of us have known someone who's lived well into their 90s. and that's a great thing. but even though we're living longer, one thing that hasn't changed much

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good morning, everyone. we're live from america's news headquarters. i'm jamie colby. talks in geneva over iran's nuclear program are entering their third day with no deal in

sight. secretary of state john kerry and five other world powers meeting with iranian diplomats in geneva this morning. france's foreign minister says negotiations are breaking down over tehran's refusal to end plans to keep enriching uranium to levels that could potentially make a nuclear weapon. and he's guilty. the jury in the martin mcneal trial convicting the doctor of murdering his wife michelle. they say he knocked her out with a cocktail of prescription drugs and drowned her in the bathtub to keep his affair going with the family nanny. he could spend the rest of his life in prison. i'm jamie colby. back now to "bulls and bears." keep it right here on the fax news channel. s.o.s. irs. this time, it's for reportedly doling out $4 billion in tax refunds, to, get this, i.d.

thieves, including 655 refunds to a single address in lithuania. what they could have bought, huh? and gary b., this is who's going to be enforcing the health care law. >> it's sad, isn't it? i don't want to pick on the irs for the reasons jonas has highlighted. [ laughter ] >> i love the irs. they are good people there. but the problem is with any government agency, overseeing a big part of the administration of 20% of the economy, there's going to be ways to fraud. you go down the list -- whether it's medicare, social security, medicaid, food stamps. anything -- even if hss was running this or the department of education, there would be fraud, waste, inefficiency. unfortunately, that's what you get with a large government where the only goal is to build your department. the irs shouldn't be doing this. it should be the private sector

again like we've said for, i guess, years now, that should be only involved in health care because they are the only ones accountable to a bottom line. >> ok. gary b., you're safe for another year, i think. but john, how do you take this? they are going to be enforcing the health care law which is already as we're discovering pretty much a mess. what do you think of the irs getting in there? >> i should have listened to my friend, audited right now, so i love the irs. they are underfunded and understaffed. it is tough for them to prosecute and catch guys who are hiding and not paying their taxes. much less to do something with obama care. you have to start almost completely over to build a whole new infrastructure, so might as will do what gary b. is saying and hire a private company to do it. the government does not do

things very well. >> tracy, you're a great accountant. >> but on behalf of the accountants of the world, don't shoot the messenger here. you get the congressional leaders that make up these rules. they don't know what they are doing. and then they send them to the irs and say, here, enforce them. and as gary said, they are on a shoestring budget. four people are working there at this point, they are so short staffed. and they have all of this extra stuff to do. it is so unfair, and ripe for fraud. no one is in the shop right now watching it. >> david, what do you think of that? >> i think it's never good news when you have people trying to defraud the system. and that's something they'll have to combat. but luckily and fortunately, they have caught this. it's been flagged. and they are going to put measures in to prevent it from happening in the future. and already this year, as john alluded to, they have already caught about $12 billion in fraudulent claims that they will not have go out. and so we can only hope that that continues, and that they start reducing the incident of

it. but it's something that also the private sector has to endure and combat and spends billions of dollars trying to do so as well. >> ok. but jonas, let's get jonas in here, they have a really big job, in addition to what they're already doing. >> first of all, let's say the good -- the other panel should be saying good things about the irs before the october 15 deadline like i did, and they wouldn't be facing all of this. >> smart boy. >> first of all, look, the irs is not the perfect agency to implement this. this is a ridiculous day of doing the health care thing. however, of all the government agencies, i give the irs the most credit. as an example. if you look at the amount of money that they handle there, the trillions of income, that's a very low fraud rate. and just personally, my amateur ca -- my amex card was frauded, and they had to pay that. that's real money of fraud to those companies.

and that's high i.t. at those companies. i bet they have higher loss rates to fraud than the irs. and that's the private sector. and healthcare.gov isn't going public. they won't get rich off the ipo like twitter this week. no one who is really good wants to work there on that. >> there is a corporate america. you don't have that. and identity theft has actually increased year over year. 1.6 million people suffered it from this tax filing season faces 1.2 million last year. i think it's getting worse. >> they had more losses in 2010 if i'm not mistaken. >> they did. >> last word. thanks, guys. so no one's safe from the pink slip, not even the lovable sponge living in a pineapple under the sea. why this upcoming episode of "spongebob square pants" is fuelling debate among those living above the sea. ♪

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coming up, america's most famous sponge living under the sea teaching america how to rise again. don't let your kids miss this. plus, while the toronto mayor may be a hot mess, there's something north of o

you're fired! >> you're fired! >> i'm take it to go >> unemployment! >> that's part of monday's trailer for the show. his star fish friend, patrick, is said to say, don't worry, collecting unemployment is a great gig. but spongebob insists on hunting

for a new job instead. tracy, you say this is exactly what our kids need to say today? >> i'm the first to tell you i'm not a spongebob fan. >> what's wrong with you? >> i think he's so fresh. but i love that even with his pink slip, aka dress, that was a cute moment, he says, i've got to get a job. i can't live like this. this is exactly what the kids need to hear. this notion that they are getting it from spongebob, who cares where they are getting it from? everything else they are hearing is so bad and convincing them they should sit on the couch and collect the government dole. >> recession hits. bikini bottoms. fox news alert. which is the better role model? how can you say patrick when he is just sitting back there taking in all the government dole? >> well, i believe that spongebob is a protagonist is opposing and representing the values that we as americans all like to think of in terms of

hard work and making a good living and providing for our families. i think his friend, i think that's a little exaggerated caricature when, you know, you think of all the people that are trying to find work, that may be unemployed, and may be on support with regard to the health care -- excuse me, the insurance that they paid into to cover them when they are unemployed. so i think that spongebob is fine in that representation. but i have a little bit of misgiving about his friend there. >> this isn't shakespeare. it's a cartoon. but really, spongebob or patrick? who is the role model you want your kids to be watching? >> well, obviously, i'd like them to be watching spongebob. but here's the problem, brenda. i think most of us are inherently lazy, and we take the path of least resistance. and when the path of least resistance is lined with gold,

as the government has done, my gosh, since i've been growing up, it's becoming worse and worse with generous food stamps and healthy unemployment benefits, things like that, it's very easy to the nonspongebob and to sit back and say, you know what? i'm not going to work. brenda, when you and i were growing up, we didn't have those options. you had to go out and get a job because there wasn't this healthy food stamp program and things like that. so it's the government's problem. >> john, what do you say? which one? >> are we really going to characterize americans as spongebob and nonspongebob? i only care what winnie the pooh has to say, by the way. i'm with david. most americans are like spongebob. i can't believe i just said that. >> yes, you did. and you said it on tape. >> that's right. they want to work. they don't want to get a handout. >> about 15 seconds to tell us what you think about this, if you've ever seen spongebob. i don't know. >> well, it's in international waters so labor laws don't apply. but somebody has to stand up for

the patricks of the world. these programs don'tdisince i n disincentivize people. >> we'll talk to you later. thanks, guys. and thanks to david for joining us. >> pleasure. pushing the minimum to the max, gaining steam. the white house now backing hiking the minimum wage to $10 an hour. but could that have jobs taking a hike? you didn't get a whole lot of time to think about anything except fighting and do what you

have to do to get those people out of there. i think nothing of giving everything i had for any of the guys if they needed it because i was willing to give my life somewhere down that line. 9. on the u.s.s. saratoga in 1982. [ male announcer ] once it's earned, usaa auto insurance is often handed down from generation to generation because it offers a superior level of protection and because usaa's commitment to serve current and former military members and their families is without equal. begin your legacy. get an auto insurance quote. usaa. we know what it means to serve. at od, whatever business you're in, that's the business we're in with premium service like one of the best on-time delivery records and a low claims ratio, we do whatever it takes to make your business our business.

od. helping the world keep promises. explaining my moderate to severe so there i was again, chronic plaque psoas to another new stylist. it was a total earrassment. and t the kind of attention wanted. so i had a serus talk with my dermatologt about my treatment options. this time, she prescribed humira-adalimumab. humira helps tclear the surface of my skin by actuallrking inside my body. in clinical trials, most adults with moderatekin to severe plaque psoriasis saw 75% skin clearance. and the majority of people were clear or almost clear in just 4 months. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal events, such as infections, lymphoma, or other types of cancer have happened. blood, liver and nervous system problems, serious allergic reaions, and new or worsening heart failure have occurred. before starting humira, your doctor should test you for tb.

ask your doctor if you live in or have been to a regionhere certain fungal infections are common. tell your doctor if you have had t hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have symptoms such as feve fatigue, cough, or sores. you should not start humira if you have any kind of infection. make the most of every moment. ask your dermatologist about humira, today. clearer skin is possible. predictions. gary b.? >> brenda, forget all the twitter stuff. buy the carrier. buy comcast, up 30% in a year. >> john? >> groupon has mobile figured out. up 20% in one year. >> it's a win for montreal. bank of montreal up 15% in a

year. >> this $10 minimum wage choice is a job killer. stay away from it. >> forget about minimum. you know who's really, really going to take it to the ma? come on. "cavuto on business." neil, take it away. from taking off without a hitch to launching like a, well, son of a glitch -- son of a glitch. anyway, hi. good to have you. i'm neil cavuto. and leave it to a service all about tweets to make washington look like a bunch of twits. twitter stock taking flight this week. you might have heard a thing or two about it. very little turbulence. all that preparation paying off on the big day. very different from washington's prep work for health care law's big day, which we haven't recovered from in all of these days. call it the difference between an ipo and an ip-no. ben