>> very few people. which is why we never recommend individual stocks. something like that. >> something like that. >> something like that. >> pick a stock that nobody else does. >> we love you wherever you are. "cost of freedom" continues right now on fox. remember this? >> stay out of my business. stay out of my healthcare. >> how in the world are we going to pay for it? >> more government, higher cost, and less choice. >> so what makes you think the government could run a new healthcare program? >> incredible. that was before they passed the law, so now that their worst fears are being realized with the disastrous roll-out is obamacare the threat to individual freedom that protesters warnedded it would be? hi, everybody. i'm david asman. welcome to "forbes on fox." go in focus with steve forbes,

rich karlgaard, sabrina schaefer, john tandy and bruce jackson. welcome, bruce. thank you for coming on. steve, were the protesters right? >> absolutely right in terms of choice. government gives you very little choice. we are ending up as a people paying more for less. no reason a 60-year-old man should pay for maternity benefits. so the whole thing is collapsing. both in cost in terms of joyce and in terms of the roll-out. against the whole grain of american individualism and free markets that is turning caris city to abundance. this has gone the opposite direction of the soviet union. berlin wall fell in 1989 the last i checked. >> bruce, going back to listen to the protesters before obamacare was rolled out, you realize how right some of their concerns were, don't you? >> well, certainly there are people who are, whose costs will go up but it is because they get a better plan, they get essentially health benefits they haven't had

before. for most part they will get more choices. we have to remember here, they were uninsured. they had no choice before. i would take issue with the fact it's not free market. you are having private insurance companies participate. they have a choice whether to participate. and most people are getting at least two company choices. and several different plans to choose from, which if they are uninsured is more than they had. >> mike, when you hear the phrase "better plans, requests they will get better plans. better is in the eye of the beholder. the president has been saying for a long time that the old plans were cut rate and senator tom harken called them junk policies. look at the stat. 69% of all the people polled say they have excellent or good healthcare. they like the policies. but now they can't keep their policies. >> yeah. for the president to think he knows better than the people he game of baseballs for what plan they have shows what content the president has for the american people. if you look at the choices, they are going down because

insurers are -- you know, the mayo clinic for example, david, most plans don't include that. one of the best hospitals in the country. why? obamacare is restricting costs so insurers are dropping some of the better hospitals and some of the better doctors are being dropped. this whole thing really is being sold by someone who lied to the american people for years about what this plan entails. >> sabrina, the fact is when you put the protesters' complaints together and so many of their complaints turned out to be right, one thing that sticks out is individual choice. that is what really bugs people. when it's concerning their own healthcare, they think their choices should trump the government, right? >> yeah, because the american people know what is best. they have taken -- rose-colored glasses have come out. people realize the only way to truly improve our healthcare system in america is make sure that more individuals own and control their healthcare dollars. i think mike is exactly correct on this. if we want to see a greater price transparency, efficiency and better care, we have to put the individual patients in

charge of the healthcare dollars. >> well, rich karlgaard, democrats are not the only one who are going to get an earful or are getting an earful. it's republicans. they get'reful if the constituents saying what should we do? do they have a plan? >> let's hope they have a plan. >> healthcare was broken, broken before obamacare and broken because there is a lack of transparency. the bottoms has been too involved. we need revolution that steve forbes points out. what other part do you have rising demands is it considered bad? entrepreneurs can rise up and meet the demand in a way i think can utterly transform healthcare. bring better healthcare, higher quality at lower prices, just as it does with almost everything else. >> john, again, the issue is choice. people want to choose what they like, right? >> it's so basic. government is the main

provider, the end result is bulgarian blue jeans that no one wants to wear. >> i forgot about the bulgarian blue jeans. >> they ended the cold war. capitalism provides abundance. rich and steve and might be and sabrina point out that it's lack the profit motive for a long time. if you remove the government you will see a problem turned in to something simple. >> it's also the choice not to have insurance. it gets under people's skip. they want that choice. >> certainly. i would take issue with the fact it's not a free market thing. health insurance industry is running the show here, not the government. the individual market, well point for example, they have raised their profit expectations three times this year. in anticipation of the revenue they are going to get from obamacare. so this idea that this is not, this is run by government is

ridiculous. it's run by the insurance companies. >> they are at least telling the insurance companies what they have to do. but the same time, steve, bruce is right. a lot of the insurers if you look at the stocks they are going sky high. why? >> crony capital i. if obamacare is so great, the whole plan is so great why do they have a law to make us do it. why wouldn't we be flocking to it anyway? insurance saw millions of people would be forced to buy the product so they an it pate more profit -- anticipate more profit. it's crony capitalism. >> i wonder if they have doubts if they should have supported obamacare as they did. >> they will try to get exemptions. union will try to get exemption. everybody has their hand in the pot. >> everybody except the average guy. >> absolutely. we'll support congress and subsidize them. but the reason why we need to go to more choice and more free market, if you look at the products like lasik surgery, tooth implant, out of

the main stream insurance, the price plummeted and the quality improve dramatically. >> that is true. rich, i wonder if the doctors will be ooze of the universe of what is covered. a lot of doctors will opt for cash-only, right? >> yeah. so, everything that the administration purports to be against, which is this rising divide between rich and poor is going to be made worse because obamacare. but look, can i say something about the idea of junk plans. you know, i suppose we own a chrysler myny van -- miny van. if you were selling rolls-royce you consider a minivan a junk car. we like it, we can afford it and perfectly happy with it. >> it's individual choice. and individual choice of the doctors. i wonder if the doctors will be free to choose to work outside of these plans. they may be coerced whether they like it or not to work inside the plan. >> right. individuals want to be able to work directly with the doctors. when individuals are the

customers we'll see a tremendous improvement in our healthcare system. what they are hearing at the town hall meetings this weekend is that nearly 60% of the country continues to oppose obamacare. more than 10% more than opposed it before the law implemented it. not because of the disastrous implementation. they oppose it because americans are realizing what healthcare will look like when government is running the show. they don't like it. >> steve, end with what we started with. the protest that we started in 2010. they affected the 2010 midterms. will we see them come up again as things get worse with obamacare affecting the 2014 elections? >> absolutely, david. now it goes from distraction to reality. one thing that the administration underestimated is the healthcare the most personal thing possible for you and your kids, grand kids, relatives and friends. when you start messing with that, you see people you know have the healthcare messed with, they are going to get where they work against the democrats in 2014. >> don't mess with my

healthcare. that sounds like a slogan. with the cost of obamacare piling up, is that why the economy still isn't taking off? "cashin' in" adds it up at the bottom of the hour. but first, it's official. 2013 was the slowest hurricane season in three decades. some say that officially proves all those climate changes programs are just a waste of money.

live from america's news headquarter, i'm kelly wright. it's deadline day for the obamacare website. the administration promised by today the site would operate smoothly. for the vast majority of people trying to access it. user capacity has been doubled but if the website does not work, uninsured americans from 36 states could face prones getting coverage by initial -- problems getting coverage by the initial december 23 deadline. ford nation is rising up.

toronto embattled mayor rob ford and his brother are taking their failed tv show to youtube. only one episode of "ford nation" aired before being pulled. mayor ford admitted to smoking crack last month. after refusing to resign, the toronto city council stripped him of his mayoral power. i'm kelly wright. i will see you back here at 1:00 p.m. eastern. we take you back now to "forbes on fox" for your day's headlines, log on to foxnews.com. so remember the dire predictions for this year's hurricane season? well, it turned out, looking more like this. in fact, we actually had the fewest atlantic hurricanes in more than three decades. rich, you say this is proof we need to dump all those costly climate change programs. make your case. >> certainly looks that way to me. now i will admit we have had modest warming on the planet in the last 20, 30 years. but to be able to tie this to

the cataclysmic weather events, you are in the realm of speculation. it is proven by the fact we have had a low hurricane season. this would be come call except for the fact -- comical except for the fact that the climate hysterical crowd are putting brakes on the economy. at the time we need blue collar somebodies, the opposite is happening because of the excessive climate regulation. >> bill, in fact, there is evidence that from '97 to 2012, global mean temperatures have flatlined. they haven't been going up. >> well, i don't think you should end the war against atmospheric carbon. i think you should wage in a different way. i have a two-part plan. part one -- i will agree with steve on this one. end all of the green energy tax deductions, tax credits, subsidiaries, boondoggles, mandates, loans to billionaires making -- >> okay. we get it. wind mills, ethanol, all that stuff. >> yeah. $80,000 electric car. >> second part of the plan. >> carbon tax.

>> carbon tax? steve, i take it you don't agree with that one. >> david, this is just typical. they always find a way to pick your pocket. conjure up a crisis and pick your pockets. what we are experiencing now in temperatures has been going on since the 1600s, when we had the ice age. what is wrong with a little global warming? the fact of the matter is the weather on the planet has been changing for 4 billion years. long before we came along. you think of how much money, mike, we have been spending on the programs. we added it all up. it adds up to $90 billion. you see the chart. the spike in 2009 is pause of of -- because of the stimulus program on climate change, is. a lot of money. >> it is. i'd like to see the government to do more of what business does. i would like to see cost-benefit analysis. this is what reagan was good at. in 1987, he got the montreal protocol, every country in the united nations to sign off on the tough measure to protect the ozone layer because he

showed the cost of protecting the ozone were beneficial versus what is going to happen as people develop skin cancer for example. he won with economics and science. not hysteria. >> bruce, we are also hearing talk that the president will focus, now that obamacare is not working out well, he will focus on climate change issue and push again for some kind of carbon tax. but even when nancy pelosi controlled congress she couldn't get that through. >> well, i think, you know, that there are a lot of big businesses that are pushing ahead with reducing their carbon footprint anyway. with or without taxes. you have companies like walgreens up in evanston, illinois, old stomping ground in northwestern university where they are building a net zero store. where they produce, they are producing energy they can consume. geothermal tubes. they have a wind mill they are putting out in front of the

store. the attitudes changed where you have businesses doing their own things in these regards because they think it's the right thing to do. >> that is fine. john jerk no problems with that. i don't think anyone has problems with the voluntary cooperation in terms of trying to make the planet cleaner. there is nothing wrong with that. it's when the coercion is apply and government regulation one-size-fits-all is applied to even we have problems with. right? >> yeah. the global warming agenda is economy-sapping delusion that even the biggest advocates don't believe in. look at coastal properties for new york and california. they go up in price and bought by the al gore lovers. i shows how among the biggest supporters nobody buys in to this. >> voting with their feet. there is a politicals a fect this. tony abbott the new prime minister there. he became prime minister

largely because he posed their carbon tax. they implement and was unpopular. >> they realize it was harming the economy. australia is dependent on minerals. this was a disastrous tax among others. look at germany and denmark, it's three times more than the united states. they take unproven theory, unscientifically proven to apply it and hurt economies and hurt people's chances to get ahold. >> rich karlgaard, we are almost out of time but this comes when we make advances in carbon energy in this country. >> yeah. shale oil and natural gas boon is terrific and will save our bacon in the end. if government,les unless government decides to kill it. >> you had to bring up bacon now. the food police are on us as well. we can't win. coming up, the new "hunger games" movie breaking records at the box office.

is it also breaking the push for big government in america? maybe. a blockbuster debate coming next. hi honey, did you get e toaster cozy? yep. got all the cozies. [ grandma ] with n fedex one rate, i could ll a box and ship it r one flat rate. so i kn untilt was full. you'd be crazy not to. is tt nana? [ male announcer ] fedex one rate. simple, flat rate shipping with the reliability of fedex. to help secure retirements and protect financial futures. to help communities recover and rebuild. for companies going from garage to global. on the ground, in the air, even into space. we repaid every dollar america lent us. and gave america back a profit. we're here to keep our promises. to help you realize a better tomorrow. from the families of aig, happy holidays.

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it's not just the number one movie. some say "hunger games" is the number one reason why we should fight against big government. they'll explain. also, blockbuster stocks to bring you

75th year of the hunger games. >> it's catching fire and ruling at the box office, about the power struggle of the all-important capital forcing its rules on the masses who live outside the capital. john, you say there is a lesson for america. tell us. >> i live in d.c. and i watch it boom over the last few

years while the rest of the economy sagged. parallel to the "hunger games" novels are clear. positive thing is once a generation, americans let governments grow too large. the economy naturally suffers. we reverse course. the fact we're moving toward the hunger games means we will reverse it. >> some people say there are things that the capital does well, right? >> yeah, definitely. i think that we, a lot of people were thinking we need to do something with like dodd-frank after the financial collapse. that doesn't seem to have hurt any of the banks we thought we, the stocks are soaring, dow above 16,000. there were additional regulations put. in it doesn't seem to have harmed anybody. >> on the or hand, rich, it proves the "hunger games" point. that there is an elite, insider elite. they are doing great. like gangbusters. the rest of us are just supporting that elite. >> i agree with john. john i would add crony

capitalism. this administration in particular makes no secret of the fact that it favors certain kinds of industries. certain kinds of financial institutions. and even else is on the outside. the majority of us are on the outside. >> sabrina, i'm pleased that john is optimistic about the future. he says eventually when the capital becomes too big, maybe not quite as big as in the "hunger games" but eventually americans wake up and change things. do you think they will do hit the time? >> absolutely. since this is the weekend of thanksgiving, i want to be a little optimistic as well. i don't think it's a linear, you know, road to serfdom. one of the great things about america is people speak up. government takes over too much control, people say it's time to rein it in. one thing, everybody doesn't love the tea party now but a quarter of the americans identify with the tea party, whose goal is reign in government to return it to the

proper constitutional role. that gives me hope. >> bill, she mentioned "road to serfdom." a great book by freidrich, libertarian book. are we on the road? >> we are. savage, lobbyist world out there where people spend less energy creating wealth. using the friends in the government. one example of that, the drug companies that make expensive asthma inhalers, didn't want to see the cheap asthma inhalers on the market. they got the friends in the government to declare cheap inhalers as environmental hazard. which is absurd. >> when you go to washington, d.c., i grew up in washington and you seen it expand particularly when the government goes through the difficult period. the place is booming. >> right. some of my best friends are in washington. but clearly the government has gotten too big. they wrecked the dollar. they have taken over healthcare and taking over the banking industry. that is why we have the worst

job creation since 1930s. they get rich and the country gets poor. >> by the way, a great movie. i saw it on sunday. coming up, you heard about the hunger games blockbuster now get the informers' blockbuster stocks. coming right up. ♪ as your life and career change, fidelity is there for your personal economy, helping you readjust your retirement plan along the way, rethink how you're invested, and refocus as your career moves forward. wherever you are today, a fidelity i.r.a. has a wide range of investment choices to help you fine-tune your personal economy. call today, and we'll make it easy to move that old 401(k) to a fidelity i.r.a.

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i like j&j better. >> is that is it for "forbes on fox." have a fantastic holiday weekend. thank you for watching. keep it here. the number one business block continues with eric bolling and "cashin' in." >> no more because of obamacare. consumers clinching, cutting back as chaos continues with the healthcare law. >> i am going to cut things like haircuts, not eating out as much. not going to the movies. >> uncertainly mounts. will our economy pay the ultimate price and flatline because of this? >> a dicey deal with consequences. white house handing over billions to iran in a new deal. will it take down the national security? she's back. "cashin' in"