>> the problem is obamacare isn't too much capitalism it is socialism. >> they make a powerful argument. >> if you have been successful you didn't get there on your own. >> once upon a time there was a land that was happy. just about every one thought this was best. but over time rich people decided they weren't rich enough so they decided to get richer. >> is it that important after all? >> the fill posse is simple we are better off when everybody is left to fend for themselves.

>> oceanism has contributed mightily to the quality of life no, it hasn't.. socialism sucks the life out of people. i go around the world to see what works better socialism or capitalism? >> here in hong kong not handing in one form was all i had to do. defending the market. that's our show tonight. >> the free market is under attack. it is always under attack. markets lead to big wealth disparity. markets feed off of self interests. the first glance is all about rich people getting richer at the expense of the pour. president obama gets big applause by mocking those of us who say the free market will fix all sorts of problems. >> the market will take care of

everything they tell us. if we cut more regulations and cut more taxes. here's the problem. it doesn't work. it has never worked. >> that applause he got is the reason politicians keep passing laws to regulate the market. try to fix it. make it more fair. laws like obamacare. ed to frank, the $800 billion stimulus farm bills minimum wage and so on. we need more laws says congressman charlie wrangle. congressman moore? >> not more. i am a firm believer in the free market and capitalism. no one is stopping that. >> but you want more laws you want to hire minimum wage you want a craft. >> don't say more laws. we want to make certain that

pupil are alg to enjoy capitalism what our tons tugs is all about is a country of laws not just what people want to do. >> i am knotted knocking the constitution. >> let's do that. nobody wants too much. but the question is, too much for one person is too little to another. that's why we are having this debate and you and i are talking about it. we can't have one percent of the american population owning the majority of the health. that is a country whatever you earn you deserve. don't do it the way bankers have done it. you need laws to put levels of regulation of those people that refuse the capital i s-- abuse

capitalistic system. >> which percentage of our economy should government be? >> the right balance is taking place in congress. >> 5 percent, 10 percent, 20 percent? >> percents doesn't mean a darn thing. if you want to have smaller government you have to have less problems. making the dreams and as pir rages of the american people have been met. how do we do it by praying? no, we do it by law. >> congressman i assume you mean well but i think your laws have unintended consequences and many are just bad ideas. you sponsor the green enbee tax credit for electric cars. here you are on the floor of congress. >> it is endless the possibilities this bill will pursue with products such as plug in hybrid cars. >> was that a good idea? >> it's a great idea. we should try all of the ideas. we should invest in those ideas.

>> but it was for the rich. people like mike huckabee and i got a free gulf cart. the subsidy was so big dealers were advertising you can get the cart for free. a bunch of us got free stuff from you. >> just because the handful of individuals that have more than signs ons their mind doesn't mean my idea was bad. this money what supposed to go to the people it was supposed to go into expanding science. that is why we have these agencies and the government that that is what they do. shooi soure some people are goig to be ripped off. we try to prevent this from happening but don't allow government to think it is small and it must be good. being small by itself is not

good. >> we are a long long way from small government in this country. congressman thank you. we agree to disagree. >> we are not a small country therefore we are a small government. >> sadly i fear most americans agree with congressman rangel. lots agree with pundits. >> european socialism works for their tax dollars europeans get full healthcare coverage a generous pension, daycare, long paid vacations, ma jernity leave, free college and public transportation that doesn't smell like pee. >> yipee his audience is convinced. latest turn to the economists. this is how the europeans get all of the free stuff. >> if you are content with the thin the way the things are social

state is the way to go. if you want a society where five-years ago we didn't have the ipad we didn't know what it is. why? because the government program? no because an entrepreneur envisioned we might want an ipad and it would make it better as a result. >> they are giving out all sorts of people to the people. until the house of cards came crashing down. we know where big government takes us. there is this battle in america between that outcome and the free market. >> maybe you know. a lot of people don't. the pope of all people has come out criticizing markets. he's upset some rich people are so much richer than pour people. this inequality upsets americans, too. >> i share the pope's concerns for our brothers and sisters in this country and around the world. the secret is in the last 40 years the number of people living ohhen a dollar a day or

less that is up by 80 percent. 80 percent in the last four years. that is not because of stimulus money that is not because of minimum wage p. that is because of the free market. they care about the poor. the froo he market system is the best system to help them. >> you are saying if you are going to lift the poor you have to have inequality? >> one of the really remarkable successes of the the market economy over the last 100-years income inequality globally is narr narrowing. the bottom million is moving up so quickly than the rest of us. it means spending most of your day transporting clean drinking water from one to the next. that is not a life of meaning what we need to do is elevate the bottom building and continue to do that and a free society is the most effective way to make that happen. >> for thousands of years people live on a buck or two today and live really lousy lives only

recently since we have had markets and criminal revolution have a lot of poor people listing themselves higher. the rich have gotten even richer and this upsets people if government would level it a bit. >> if you brought somebody forward from a time machine to spend it with somebody really rich like bill gates the thing that would make his eyes pop is not how big the gates house is or how many americans they have what would amaze them is indoor air-conditioning and those things thare the things that ma it better for everyone at the same time it may be growing income and equality. it's a winner for everybody. if you focus on income and equality it misses the point. >> that is a necessary by

product in your opinion? >> yes or no or maybe? >> the answer is that economic inequality happens any time people create value. they create value for everyone. he helps them manage the linens used and the air-conditionings and the earnings that are in that room. bill gates buys one office package at a time made live better for all of us>> i don't mind that he is rich but the pope apparently does and says income inequality is the result of an ideology that supports the marketplace and financial speculation and this is a new tyranny. >> it requires us with people

who have less than us around the country and the world. if you look at the government systems economic systems they provided the most support people through out history. no comparison. >> no final point about fairness. these days corporations so eager to be even add politically correct do things they say will make life more fair since south american markers could don't make much money they say buy from us we only buy fair trade. here is a commercial from starbucks. >> sounds good. we are going to buy starbucks they are going to give more to these little farmers. what is wrong with that?

>> at the very worst it is a marketing scheme to get them to shell out more money for coffee than they otherwise would have. at the very best it is a charity. as far as charities go it is an inefficient charity. you hope that a few pennies of that trishickle up the supply cn that the small could have gee gr fee bgrowers get the money. >> the money doesn't go very far. if you want growers they should ban the sugar from outside of the united states or stop sub tizing rich cotton parmers in the united states the other thing you can do is take the extra $0.25 you are spending on a cup of coffee and give it to an ngo doing effective work with

the people you are helping in the first place. >> i feel we are not winning the battle. it ticks people off and they want government to step in and fix it. >> more obamacare. >> and everything else. >> anded to frank. here's the got tomorrow line. free market is about a lot more than money or greed or rich people getting ahead. it is about what is moral what helps the poor people the most what gives us opportunities to earn success. that is why we came here. we need to return to free enterprise. >> thank you abby and victor, if you would like to keep this conversation going go to facebook or twitter and use that hash tag free market to let people know what you think. >> coming up why a few places

like chillies shav slovakia got richer while other countries stay poor. >> if you have premarket you do better if you don't you stay poor.

>> one group of americans who were once ar dent cap tailists were farmers. am they captured many of them. why not if you grow wheat, corn, rice, barley, government gives you stuff. subsidies crop insurance price support. it's welfare for the rich. farmers today are richer than americans. it is a terrible policy that survives because politicians and farmers say this preserves stability in the market protects the food supply. that is a scam. new zealand figured this out. they apolytheists guyed farm subsidies oh 30 years ago the farmers are better off and there

were no food shortages. many government officials are clue loose their rules are x complicated so it focused on one drop, raisins. >> i wouldn't dream of giving my family anything less. >> hi honey, what's cooking? >> isn't in a cute? i am glad california farmers are good at growing raisins and sun made for becoming the biggest race kin company. same son most of them for col lewding with government and messing with the free market. for 60 years on something called the raisin administrative committee ordered raisin woormers to give the government a third of their crop. most parmfarmers go alock with

but one said no. the government fined him. he still says no. marvin, why. ? >> you work for a wage. what if the studio broadcaster's administration came to you and said we need 47% ch your wages for our promotions. how would you feel? >> i would be ticked off but i figure all of my spet tors have to give raisins, too, things will even out. >> this is america. what you produce you should be able to keep. >> i believe in this particular case they wanted to take my raisins i said no so they don't take the raisins. they said if we can't take the raisins we are going to give you a fine. i wasn't the only one. 60 farmers said no more the buck stops here. >> you are up to 6 million in fines you have taken this to the supreme court. >> i didn't pick the fight.

they came after me and our family and our assets and said you give us the money or give us the raisins. i said no. >> at the moment the supreme court has bounced it down to a lower court. let's talk about theish oo yous. your opponent gary schultz raisin administrative committee member two come on to debate this with you while this was going oorg gued. he did tell us on the phone before this policy there were wild swings of supply and demand. government demanded raisins be sold to the government so if there was an important security aspect. i mean i like raisins. i have some here. i don't see the security aspect it is long after world war ii. the basic argument you made this is a tool the industry used to keep prices stable. >> i would say that is false.

it has been a way to manipulate the market and reduce the supply of raisins into the marketplace vanquish creative marketing to the public keep the price higher in certain areas didn't do any good for us. if you get 47 percent of your crop how are you going to survive? it is absurd. >> i am surviving because i didn't give it to him. a lot of our neighbors did and they are broke. we 3,000 growers they took it and sold it overseas at a sub tized brice below the option. they were getting raisins below the cost of production. they said that was helping us. come on give me a brake. >> i like the line but they would say yeah it helps america's export business. don't you want to help europeans

and chinese people? >> yes, if they want to pay for it. if the government wants our raisins pay for it. other crop subsidies they get them. corn tobacco, cotton. not the raisin farmer. they took our raisins and isn't give us a time. they said come back next year>> we don't need subsidies we need this get this agency off our back to market our own raisins without entinterference. mar k marvin horn, thank you very much. >> my geks guest says americans are right to criticize what we call capitalism. also clint eastwood for doing

this chrysler commercial. >> it is half time america and our second half is about to begin.

>> that is from michael moore's movie. a love story. it is really a hate story. bailouts and corporate welfare he has a point. it is a lot to hate about capital sichl. what do you mean? >> if you go back as far as adam smith he talks about how business people try to use

political connections to get wealth at everybody else's expense. to smith didn't have markets to bid with everyone on how they want political privilege. we still see that problem today. >> we can use words in different ways. i am not going to object if you want to use the word capitalism that way. but i also understand why other people use it in a fairly different way. >> there is a book titled market not cap it will. >> it looks at the way in which politically secured frifl ledge distorts market. >> let's talk about the auto bailout. this is being celebrated by the president. i save detroit and most americans would say what is wrong with that? we want a strong american car

manufacturing institute. >> it seems to me if american car manufacturing industry isn't really serving american consumerses and consumers around the world it is a profound mistake to let people associated with that industry to be used to persuade congress and the president to award huge sums of our money to those folks. that is a store tree had a happens all of the time politically well connected businesses make the case that somehow they are essential to everyone else's well-being and in so doing are able to get huge sums of money that could be better invested. >> crisler got 10 billion but they paid a lot of the money back. >> the whole process distorts incentives and sends the message to politically well connected corporations repeatedly there is

a long-term disportion of incentives that this kind of behavior and also the wall street bailout can be led to>> your answer is let them go broke? >> they should be invested where people want to put them and where they can do the most good how can we tell where they are going to do the most good? pie the returns they yield. if retailers don't yield high returns that seems pretty good evidence the industry is currently working doesn't in fact merit that kind of investing. >> if g and chrysler were broke we would still get cars? >> that seems right to me. >> after the bailout they got clint eastwood to narrate the commercial which ran at half time of the super bowl.

>> both teams are in the locker room discussing what thick do to win the second half. detroit almost lost everything but we pulled together now motor city is fighting again. >> we all pulled together? who is exact is we here? oo it is that time in america, too. people are out of work and they are hurting. thub wrelg dubberer wolg dubs whe where all of the money went. 2.5 went to chrysler in the form of a bailout. >> yet americans support that. >> yeah, we have a history it seems to me of using the rhetoric of public benefit to reallocate resources to the politically well connected. when you are politically well connected you can get the public to pay the bill.

>> i will try to pick up on your language from now on. froo he markets are free markets capitalism can be government politically managed not as good. coming up, lessons about capitalism from an 11-year-old. >> if people want to work let them work.

>> lemonade for sale. lemonade for sale. $0.50. >> outside the studio i once tried selling lemonade. tried to do it legally. i found new york laws make it nearly impossible. i found nearly impossible to try to understand the rules. oo what's an ine assistance? >> they said i had to take a 15 hour food protection class. >> i don't have bicycles.

when i was a kid selling lemonade is how you learned about capitalism. i could not legally sell it in my town. it is not just new york but portland oregon. an 11-yearly climbed trees to get mistletoe. she tried to sell mistletoe to try to pay for her braces. they said you can't sell mistletoe it's illegal. you can beg, that's legal. >> her father then set up this videotape. >> if people want to work, let them work. i was amazed that people cannot work hard but they can be just lazy. >> it is a nasty lesson to teach kids. i am glad she and other kids appreciate the benefits of free

market. lauren hudson and her father wrote this book about teaching capitalism to america. so lauren you are 13, what do you care about capitalism or free market. >> kids my age my my generation they don't understand it. when they hear it. >> people my age don't understand it. >> i don't think anybody understands it pleatly unless they kind of read about it or hear about it. >> what do you understand? what's good about it? >> it is crucial to our society for our jobs and taxes for the government it is really important. >> you have details in your book like chapter 30 hiring people makes a difference in their lives. what's bad about that?

>> which wanted to say capitalism is more than must making money or jobs. everybody's goal is to make a profit and stay in business. if they make a profit they can help grow capitalism and help make it better and help society as a whole. >> rob you were helping? lawyers are -- >> i am a defender of business in my practice. lauren and i worked on this together over her summer break. it was a labor of love of mine to write about capitalism and support business. >> it is selfish. >> yet business is what you are going to provide lauren with her future opportunities. it is extensive in terms of the impact and students don't have a good handle on it. >> i certainly agree with that they should learn something

about capitalism. >> they offer free videos from fox and abc that try to explain free markets and the term free market is better a knew weeks ago the prime minister of england said -- >> i want it taught in schools celebrated in communities. >> good for the prime minister. unfortunate he makes that announcement dressed in a tuxedo in a fancy dinner reinforces everybody's idea that free markets are for fat cats. >> i like the use of the bully pulpit. it is part of the reason we wrote the book. it needs to start with lauren's

generation. if wick reach these students there is hope for capitalism. >> my brother in high school hasn't learned it yet and he's about to go off to the university of kentucky without learning something crucial. >> he learned go quilting in inge lash class. >> he told me a lot about that i think students should learn about it. our education has been great and i have loved learning about all of the stuff we learned about, and all of my language arts teachers taught me writing skills which helped make a difference in what i hope will be future generation of capitalism. >> coming up why are some con res so rich while most sadly are poor?

>> america has problems but we do pretty well. 2 billion struggle to live on a buck or two a day. fewer than 1 billion have any where near our level of wealth and comfort. why didn't we do so well when

most of the world didn't. johan knows the answer. he studied economies around the wor world>> allow millions of people to try out their own lives to find out new businesses new technologies in other words it's about economic freedom giving people a chance to get ahead. >> you make documentaries making pockets of success you found on this pbs station. >> chile is a stunning account of what can happen when a company embracing economic freedom. they were next to last among all of the companies>> this happened because they hired a bunch of

young economists they were known as the chicago boys and they persuaded him to try free market reform. >> chili implemented an open trade policy return business to private ownership and prooifr tied the pension system. the poverty rate is 14 percent. >> you mentioned the frazer report. >> it is an attempt to try to come up with a mathematic formula where they use statistics to look at how free they are with business and how free they are to foreigners and so so on. we can correlate it and look at other things. >> the best places to live are the freest countries at the pop of the list hong kong used to be united states now it has fallen

to 18. >> it creates great opportunities to them. i think in the united states one problem is that you take wealth for granted. when you have had it for generations you stop thinking about where did this come from what other productive forces that makes this happen. >> so in the united states we passed more rules it is harder to start a business. taxes are higher and that dropped us on the left? >> yeah, you pay out to the automotive industry and you don't expect the prrespect the property rights. >> the reputation it takes a while to build it. in the long run if i invest in the future i will get ahead. if you start to mess with that too much with too much arbitrary government people will be short term and that is dangerous.

>> chili was your model of success. it has gone very well. i hear they are going to elect a leftist government. people don't understand why they are doing as well well. >> in the long run you always think it is easier to redistribute wealth take from the rich and give to everybody else. it is this great idea we can all live off everybody else's expense. but the problem is that is not the way it happened to begin with. that is not where we came from. that's no the where chili came from it. that's one reason why people talk about chilly having been migrated from around the region from a poor country to another country. that is is adanger if they are starting to regulate this way. >> if you want people to stop being hungry stop being poor you need to liberalize this. >> there is wealth disparity the

rich get very rich and that makes people uncomfortable. >> what you don't sees how the pie is growing so the smaller share of the larger pipe can be much much greater. yes you are more equal if you live in a country like north korea. on average if you live in the freest country but you are among the poorest you earn 10 times more than the poorest in the least free countries. inequality is that so important after all? yes, it is if you hate wealth more than you hate poverty. that's really what it is about. if you hate poverty you might go for unequal society before getting ahead. >> let's move on to a more recent success story in africa. you went to zambi. >> in 1995 this land locked

nation was one of the lowest ranked countries in the report. today zambia is the most economically free nations in the country. in 15 years this impoverished african nation moved to a level of can ability as poland and franls opening doors to silvia bander. her first business was to open a small one room restaurant. from this beginning she expanded the business between expensive caterers a school for restaurant service workers and processing of nationwide distribution of zambian foods. >> so good for her but are people doing well in zimbabwe? >> no they are not. they used to sayyaf kau was a hope lrs continent they came up with all sorts of explanations it could be history, it could be culture and so on. but what we sees when some

african countries begin to liberalize they begin to make progress. what we need is creativity. >> economic freedom means allowing people to try something new as he said like a new business prosperous country makes it easy. which country through those? i tried to open businesses in it delaware, new york, india and hong kong. i will tell you what happened next.

i was able to get permits to open a stossel store in wilmington. >> want to buy a fox t-shirt? >> delaware and nevada are the states in america that make this easiest. but easiest doesn't mean easy. i had to register with the delaware secretary of state division of corporation. >> you have a federal employee identification number, commercial liability insurance. >> in delaware it can be done in

a few days. it was good i had done it legally. a wilmington cop came over to make sure i had a vending permit. >> cost me 10 bucks. >> getting permission in delaware did take about a week and that's too long. much better than new york where i had gave up. by contrast in hong kong i could start a business in one day. handing in one form is all i had to do. >> next day i was indoor shopping center running my own business stossel enterprises. >> it was a stupid business. no one wanted to buy the frisbees and yo-yos that i sold. it was why places like hong kong and america years ago prospered. people were desperately poor a few decades ago. today they are about as rich as we are. hong kong limited government allows people to try stuff.

america's piles of regulations make that very difficult and it is getting worse. we are becoming more like india. oy tried to open a business in calcutta kau once. they have a thousand rules. people who want to obey the rules line up to deal with the bureaucrats. they want to make sure the food is clean the building is safe. but the result is so man fee good ideas die. diaz forms under others who are waiting. we keep passing more rules. maybe some day american politicians, too, will fi figure out it is not more rules that make it better it is free market that allow them free tomorrdom experiment and try things and

that let's people prosper even the poor because the riding tied of prosperity lifts all votes. that is our show. see you next week. >> tonight on huckabee. >> it is details and illustrations about killing a large amount of people. >> a reporter with a big scoop protecting her confidential sources she faced jail time unless she named names. tonight the story of her. >> he spent the last moments of his life making sure his classmates lived. jessie lewis the 6-year-old hero from new york. >> the president's greatest