>> ben, you have been spot-on with te merging growth things. guys, fantastic show. "cost of freedom" continues on the place for business: fox. ♪ ♪ don't get yourselves in trouble by declaring it now. >> exactly. >> yeah. it did happen. >> remember that? obamacare navigators caught encouraging individuals to commit tax fraud, to get government subsidiaries. now a new house committee report is bashing the program for misconduct like that, along with poor training and iffy protections for consumers' very private information. is it time to cast away the expensive taxpayer-funded navigators once and for all? hi, everybody. i'm david asman. happy holidays. welcome to "forbes on fox." go in focus with steve forbes, mike ozanian, elizabeth

macdonald, john tandy and rick unger. tame to get rid of the navigators? >> of course. this is something the insurance companies do every day and they should have their employees do it. the bigger picture in defense is they are a symptom of the much-bigger problem which is the obama administration's obnoxious conceit it can create healthcare market out of thin air. the better answer is to repeal it. >> rick, john is fur getting rid of them. but he is defending them. >> i heard that. >> i heard that. >> john is right about one thing you said, the insurance brokers have people like this, who help customers figure out what the best policy is for them. that is all the navigators are doing. i look at the report from the house committee. it was ridiculous. they relied on data provided by james o'keith, who by the way, while they are concerned about the criminal behavior, he is the only one who has been convicted of a misdemeanor and had to pay over six figures to settle a case.

you know, this is a tempest in the teapot. leave these people alone. they are trying to do something good. a lot of ways you can attack obamacare. this is not the way to do it. >> they are doing it for a lot of money. the starting pay is $20 an hour. it goes up to $48 an hour. $100,000 a year. the question is how much bang for the buck they're getting. president left for hawaii on his vacation. he should know well they are 500 enrollees in the state of hawaii and they received $ 200tors and the means to get people enrolled. $410,000 per enrollee. >> this is turning in a costly jobs act. we have can't stop oversight of this. you heard it in the audio. navigators telling people how to under report income to get the tax subsidiaries. the health reform is turning in a crass act. i wish nancy pelosi had her own personal navigator to read

the bill and everybody else could get their navigators to read the bill to see the fall-out from. this by the way, why can't we get a state xerox toner changer to do job to help people figure out health reform? and the private market is doing it. we have insurance companies and 800 hotlines to help out. >> navigator to get nancy pelosi to read it. love it. bill, what do you think? time to get rid of them? >> get rid of navigators because you don't like obamacare? that's like saying we don't like the way the way the government outlawed the highways so outlaw google maps. life is complicated. insurance is complicated. government is complicated. you need guides. the way you need guides to collect income taxes. how would we survive if we didn't have hr.b blocks? do you -- h&r blocks? >> they are registered, college graduates a lot with c.p.a.s. you don't need college education or even a criminal background check as sebelius told thus week in front of a

committee. they have sensitive information, social security numbers, tax returns. do we want people who we know nothing about to have all the stuff? >> no. to say we can get it by other means is not really the answer. these people are there because of the incompetency of government. the more complex it become, the more people they have to hire. this is just more and more government bloat. to have easy access to that kind of information with no safeguards as you do shows the whole thing to scratch and start over. >> i wond here not do it in the private sector, mike? we are spending $275 million on the navigators. those are navigators for the state system. >> obamacare is still a house of lies. they should be changed to obama lies. you can keep your doctors, you said no. you can keep your plan, no. it's shopping on amazon, no. there won't be rationing.

no. all lies. the plan as john points out should be thrown out and obliterated. >> citing h&r block as something that is a great thing because they have a cottage industry to figure out that barbed wire pile of a tax code. that is the way health reform is. the fact that the individuals who we don't know when they don't have, they don't have the criminal background checks have access to personal identification information. and income information from people signing up. >> rick, doesn't it concern you? >> the h&r block was a great example. your response is interesting. they are not registered the tax preparers. many of them likely don't have college degrees and you are giving them the same exact type of information. why haven't you ever expressed concern about criminal back checks for people who are doing that? >> i would. in fact, before i would entitle them to my social security or my tax returns, i would make sure that they weren't criminals or misusing

it. >> how do you do that? h&r block doesn't do it. >> by the way, i am an h&r block tax preparer. they check in to it. >> whether they are college educated or not is not the point. if h&r block employees misuse private information, h&r block goes out of business. if the obamacare navigator misuse that information they will get more funding. there is a big difference between government-driven entities and the private sector. >> bill you see that difference clearly, don't you? >> listen, there are crooked tax preparers out there. they go to jail. there are ways to deal with that. i'm not going to outlaw the industry because i don't like the tax code. i don't like it more than you do. >> h&r block is a private company. they mess up you take them to court. the navigators are out of the hands of the citizens. when they mess up, the citizen is just out of luck. >> isn't it easier to hide this bad behavior in a government bureaucracy than in

the private sector? >> we have seen that when they testify before congress. they have been less than forthcoming. john is right. in the private sector you are punished for doing illegal things or making mistakes. in government you are rewarded. rewarderred with more workers and more funding. >> you are also more einitiate the private sector. the private sector came out with numbers like these, spending that much money on the few enrollees would they be in existence? >> they would not. >> private sector is more efficient because if you are not, you are put out of business. business cannot exist without investment. if you misuse the capital they put you out of business. in government again, when you fail, you fail upward on the way to more funding for the failed ideas. >> clearly you have seen that happen before, have you not in government? >> sure you have. i'll tell you what i find really troubling. why are you all presuming bad behavior on the part of navigators? you have one bad apple. there are people who worked in

this building where we're sitting who were turned out to be bad apples. you don't judge a class of people on that. >> let's turn a blind eye and throw more money down a rat hole. >> one bad guy. >> we are talking about government funding here. taxpayer funded navigators here. why can't you get a state employee or government employee to do this job? >> we have seen this play out with the i.r.s., targeting political people that obama didn't like and the testimony in front of congress where they lied. >> so again you have sebelius in front of a committee saying no, we don't have criminal background checks. and yes, a criminal could get through. there is a possibility. it's the lack of the checks and balances and the whole obamacare thing that bothers most people. >> yeah, when you have a pot of honey out there, the flies are going to come to it. when you have that information with no safeguards you know this is being hacked to kingdom come. more scandals to come. >> see where that takes us.

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live from america's news headquarters i'm patti app brown. fox news confirming four u.s. service members have been injured in south sudan. the pentagon says rebel fire hit at least two u.s. aircraft earlier today as they were participating in a mission to evacuate american citizens. one of the injuries is considered serious. the wounded were later taken to a hospital in nigh rowby, kenya -- nairobi, kenya. looking at the international space station, a risky emergency spacewalk is now underway. nasa astronauts rick and michael working to replace a faulty cooling pump. marathon effort is scheduled

to last 6-1/2 hours. a second spacewalk is planned for monday. if all isn't fixed by then, they will conduct a third on christmas day. i'm patti ann browne. now back to "forbes on fox" and the headlines, foxnews.com. i was making so much money, i didn't know what to do with it. >> uh-oh, leo. leonardo dicaprio playing a hedonistic rich capitalist in the new movie "wolf of wall street." something he said about the rich capitalists caught our gang's attention. take a look. >> i feel like it's an accurate reflection of everything that is wrong with the world we live in today. the attitude of this character jordan belford is directly attributed to the destruction of our economy, to, you know, you can attribute this attitude, the darker side of human nature to everything

that has gone wrong in society. >> steve, you say that smacks of hollywood hypocrisy. how so? >> a cathouse madame preaching virtue. in hollywood the big news is a person who isn't having hedonistic lifestyle. for them to denounce sin, that's rich. >> rick, you were out in hollywood. you were in sin city for a while. what do you think of dicaprio? >> do i strike you as a hedonistic sort of a person? >> you are a hedonistic wannabe, rick. >> look, i mean, i have to be honest with you. this might disappoint you but people in hollywood are a little bit more normal than you would expect. i have friends on wall street that my hollywood friends couldn't even keep up with, when it comes to hedonism. you take people as they come. i don't know dicaprio or how he lives his life. i'm not going to judge him. don't pin this on hollywood because they're an easy

target. >> rich, the point is that what dicaprio is saying, all the bad things in the world; particularly, all the world that have happened in this country economically is because of capitalism and they are paying this guy as a representative of our capitalist system. >> you know, i don't think he said that exactly. i think he was pointing out to the embodiment of the certain kind of a person who cheats the rules and so forth. look, i find myself in an odd position of being with rick on this one. i don't think there is any more hypocrisy in hollywood than professional sports or athletes out there using performance enhancing drugs or about this presidential administration where they lie about their healthcare initiative. i don't think, i think human foibles sort of are spread evenly across professions. >> when you think of what happened to this country over the last five or six years the economy slowing down. you have big business, granted you had shysters in big business but you had big

government. what we did was a gallup poll that surveyed americans, americans by a 72% majority think big government is a bigger threat to america than big business. >> let's not forget the government debauchery of the general services and administration scandal. the multiplier effect of government recklessness and debauchery goes on. prius tution scandal with congress -- prostitution scandal by congress and use of funds to go home or personal trips, trips to i have yesna yesna -- trips to barcelona. leonardo dicaprio talks about hedonism at all levels of society. he is saying there is no shame anymore. >> that may be so. but bill, whose side are you on? dicaprio's side or that 72% of americans more worried about big government than big business? >> i don't really consider leonardo dicaprio to be an expert on economic matters.

okay? our economy is built around consumer. i. in terms of being self-indulgent hypocrites, there is no question that hollywood is pretty bad. but it's not as bad as politicians or media types. >> john, where do you stand on this? is dicaprio right or wrong? >> he has a point. i am a libertarian and my view is people should live as they want so long as they don't make others pay for their lifestyles. for me, far more corrosive to society is when a man is living well is when people live off of others, including corporate bail-outs or crony capitalism like solyndra or individuals taking the hand-out from government. that is much, much worse than someone living well and taking big fancy trips and things like that. >> steve, i like the idea of what emac and rich are getting at. there are terrible ills with big government. we have seen it with obamacare, et cetera. but that doesn't exclude the private sector entirely from the ills?

>> no, david. you see human nature and all the glory going back thousands of years. in terms of big government, when it goes off the rail, crony capitalism, regulations that no one can understand, bureaucrats who can do whatever they want. that underminds the social trust as well. >> i don't think we are going to see solyndra the movie or solyndra the documentary anytime soon. >> good point. rick, people are kind of agreeing with you in terms of how there is a lot of blame to go around. but why is there so much blame on business when so americans think there should be more blame on big government? >> have i ever mentioned how intelligent that rich karlgaard is? >> only when he agrees with you. >> only when he agrees with me. i don't think that is what dicaprio was saying. i don't think he was indicting capitalism. he was indicting excess. >> okay, rick, hold on. do you think we would ever see dicaprio star in a movie about solyndra or some other government boondoggle?

>> i can't imagine that is, as somebody who makes movie, i promise you there is not enough interest in solyndra to create a movie. really. you want to lay out a script on that? >> don't you think there is enough interest right now with the way government is? >> i think there is. >> i think there is. >> you had to put it there with the i.r.s. pretending they are "star trek" characters. >> that has to be the last word. sorry. from barbara walters to the "washington post," what the main stream media is doing that could be terrible news for president. but great news for taxpayers in 2014. that is on "cashin' in" on the bottom of the hour. first, right here, did general motors ceo tell the taxpayers don't count on getting a single dime back of the $10.5 billion that was lost in the g.m. bail-out? we'll play tape and let you decide. >> do you think that g.m. should repay the taxpayers that money directly?

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$10.5 billion lost in the g.m. bail-out. did the company ceo say you're out of luck? hold on to your wallets for this one. also stocking stuffers for s

so we gave them a rescue. now they may giving us the you-know-what. this week, general motors ceo asked if g.m. should pay back the $10.5 billion that taxpayers lost if bail-out. here is the ceo dan akerson's answer. >> they took equity interest. they could have cast the bankruptcy differently and made low-interest loans for example. they didn't. they were taking a ride just like you do when you buy stocks. >> boy, so john, is he right or should the taxpayers get paid back? >> that is obnoxious. g.m. should pay us back by

filing for bankruptcy. let me explain. when governments bail out businesses they rob the economy of recovery, because basically they are perpetuating failed business practices at the expense of good ones. the realities of g.m. had been allowed to go bankrupt, it wouldn't have been been banishe. let them go. >> if they're selling cars like gangbusters now shouldn't they give us the profits? we lent it to them. >> if we follow john's path, i similar not these with the argument we'd be -- sympathize with the arguments we'd screw shareholders. the dubious thing is putting the union people ahead of the bond holders. i hope that gets litigated in the future. >> mike, rich is saying grin and bear it. >> david, obama rigged this

bail-out so the union workers -- >> obama didn't do it. >> got paid 90 cents on the dollar. the bondholders only got 10 cents on the dollar. bondholders should be paid back. >> by the way, this did start under bush. >> it certainly did. it going to remind my good friend that was the case. >> the car czar appointed by obama. >> he was. but the bail-out already occurred. look for better or worse, what the president of g.m. is saying is correct. we did do it as an equity deal. it might have been smarter to do part equity and part debt. we didn't do it. i'm still glad we did the bail-out. i know many of you disagrees but it saved a lot of people. >> should we get paid back or not? >> we're not going to get paid back and politicians shouldn't involved in bankruptcies. they're already doing it to the government. >> what do you give mr. capitalism for christmas? stocks, of course. we give stocking stuffers to steve. will they like them or send

them back. afghanistan in 2009. on the u.s.s. saratoga in 1982. [ male announcer ] once it's earned, usaa auto insurance is often handed down from generation to generation because it offers a superior level of protection and because usaa's commitment to serve current and former military members and their families is without equal. begin your legacy. get an auto insurance quote. usaa. we know what it means to serve.

we are back with the informers' stocking stuffing. we love this segment. will they like or return them? dynamic pharmaceutical. >> a great play on big pharma names. i like this. >> take it or return it? >> i'm getting older and i need more of that stuff. [ laughter ] >> great. >> bill baldwin you have a company making scented cappeddals and crock pots. >> things that people don't want at christmas but they sell really well. >> this may be a crock, but i'd take it. >> mike, you have a stinker of a stock. >> this is a great hedge against a weak dollar. >> a fertilizer stock. but we need that stuff, steve. you like it? >> i think this fertilizer turns to coal. i'm return it for more of liz's drug stock. >> steve doesn't have his hat, santa hat. if you get a closeup on his tie, do that later. it's a christmasy tie. at least he has it there. thank you, everybody for

joining us. have a very merry christmas. have a wonderful time this week. eric bolling and "cashin' in" starting right now. we are taking aim at the "duck dynasty" controversy. sponsors of the hit show sticking by phil robertson after the controversial comment. is that a foul decisionor free market working like it should? plus -- [ ♪ hallelujah >> president obama the divine? >> we thought he would be, i shouldn't say this at christmas time but the next messiah. >> the main stream media doing an aboutface admitting it was blinded by the aura of the man in the white house. the broken lies leading to this broken relationship. how love lost could mean freedom lost in