harm's way to serve our country. thanks for joining us tonight. merry christmas. >> and merry christmas to all of you dogs out there too. good evening. i'm charles krauthammer. welcome to this fox news special presentation of "firing line." for 33 years and over 1500 episodes "firing line" set the gold standard for public affairs television. when it went off the air 14 years ago and william buckley, jr., signed off for the final time the show was the longest running news program in television history with a single host. for more than three decades, buckley sparred with presidents, politicians, and cultural icons

from across the american spectrum. as a result, "firing line" was appointment television. inside the beltway and out. a true original that inspired commentators from both sides of the aisle and television programming from sunday mornings to weekday evenings right here in the realm of cable news. tonight we are pleased to bring you an episode from july 6, 1967. it marked the first of several appearances on the program either recently sworn in governor of california ronald reagan. only six months into his first term there was already speculation that governor reagan might have his eye on a higher office. as was the tradition on "firing line," the program had a theme. the topic for this program was, "is it possible to be a good governor"? the question s asked during the

show including an examination of the relationship between an expanding federal government and the states remain relevant today. taped in front of a studio audience in los angeles, buckley was joined by his friend and sometimes program moderator c. dickerman williams. this program has been edited down from the original running time. to see the complete episode, you can visit the website of the hoover institution and library at hoover.org. here now is governor ronald reagan on "firing line" in 1967. >> ladies and gentlemen, my name is c. dickerman williams. i shall act as chairman of the discussion between governor reagan and mr. buckley. the subject of the discussion is, "is it possible to be a good governor"? governor reagan, would you answer mr. buckley's questions?

has not the federal government preempted the principal sources of taxation? >> this is a great problem facing the states and endangering the very federal system of a federation of sovereign states. the federal government has preempted so much of the tax source, the state find itself hard put to find sources without upsetting the economic balance that can keep our economy moving and then in turn the state in its desperation for money, reduces the local community. people must depend every day are furnished. education, police protection, maintenance of the streets. sewage, garbage disposal, all of the services. your local communities are more desperate than the states so the states end up taxing and then

putting back a great portion of the money taxed by the state of california goes back to the local communities. we go to washington, and we are faced with asking for federal grants. i am accused of over simplifying. it doesn't make sense for me for the federal government to take money first and dispense it back to you in grants in which they tell you how to spend it from washington, d.c. like an agent with a hollywood actor, there is a certain carrying charge that's deducted in washington before you get it back again. >> a night out on the town. >> i helped write a resolution for the governors conference in colorado springs several months ago. with with a proposal as an experiment they thought if it worked -- and it would work --

might lead away from the federal grant thing. my proposal was that the federal government as an experiment designate a percentage. say it was only 2% of the federal income tax. as the money is collected let the internal revenue director for the state send 98% the to washington and 2% of the total amount to the state government. >> in other words use the tax gathering facility, lease them is what it comes down to. >> and give it back to the state with no strings attached. >> that's a form of the so-called hiller plan, isn't it? what about the notion that it ought to be remitted to the states with reference to need? that is to say sending back a little bit more to states that need the money less to states

that are especially opulent. are you in favor of extending the existing progressive and redistributionist principles or not? >> well, let's experiment with an idea. there were governors who there were poverty states that didn't have the resources of the t big industrial states. i challenge that. their idea was that those states wouldn't get an additional subsidy. it makes it more respectable for them to get it prosecufrom the government rather than to say the other states should help us. if haes true maybe eventually you would have to discover a

state requires a subsidy. why not take states of lesser income and if the percentage is 2% for the rest of us, give them a big wither share of their own money back. let them keep 4%, 5%, whatever is needed so it is their own money being left at home before you have to branch out and see if someone else must take care of them. >> i gather that this proposal is made on the assumption that they would continue to benefit unequally from the funds retained by the federal government ands by pursed. correct? for instance, the state of california gets only $75 per person from the federal government in the course of a typical year whereas the state of alaska gets $447 per person. under the reagan plan, the state

of alaska would be getting much more than the state of california but in addition it would have a greater return from its own revenue. >> that's right. >> okay. now what, in fact, as governor of california can you do considering that your proposals are not going to be enacted into law by congress? what kind of scope do you have left considering on the one hand the limited resources of people even in california and on the other hand the federal dread nought that comes in on the 15th of april and scoops up everything in sight? do you have to maneuver within what's left? >> we are in that position now. here is a state that's one of the highest tax paying states in the union per capita. at the same time as a result of several years of careless

management of the funds we are in a desperate financial plight. california in violation of its own constitution is spending more than it takes in. we have come to the day of reck reckoning. we have to turn to the people and ask them for upwards of a billion dollars. i can't call it new taxes. we are getting along without new taxes. we are raising the old ones a billion dollars. knowing the comp tif situation in attempting to keep industry here, keep our people employed, competing with states in the same business, or businesses, we have to be careful we don't make it uneconomic for businesses to operate in california. we must present a tax bill with the sword hanging over us that washington insists and has ideas

about increases. washington is sitting there threatening an income tax the inkei income tax is a source we must go to. how long before they let the sword fall and we find we have just outdestroyed ourselves. >> up next, the man who would go on to lead the country debates how much power the federal government should have over the states. [ woman 1 ] why do i cook?

to share with family. [ woman 2 ] to carry on traditions. [ woman 3 ] to come together even when we're apart. [ male announcer ] in stuffing, mashed potatoes, gravy and more, swanson makes holiday dishes delicious. i have a cold with this annoying runny nose. [ sniffles ] i better take something. [ male announcer ] dayquil cold and flu doesn't treat all that. it doesn't? [ male anner ] alka-seltzer plus fights your worst cold symptoms plus has a fast-acting antihistamine. oh, what a relief it is!

>> welcome back welcome back to this special presentation of "firing line," a 1967 discussion between william f. buckley, jr., and then

governor reagan. he would go on to lead all 50 states so his opinion of how much power the government should have over the states would be more important than a casual viewer in 1967 might have imagined. let's rejoin william f. buckley. >> let me ask you this since a lot of people are extremely cynical about the whole notion of states' rights. it's been widely contended. for instance most recently by senator tidings of maryland that american conservatives like to talk about states' rights because there is still a certain glamour to the argument and a scientific exactitude for the notion of plural icism and federalism. but the states haven't historically acted in such a way to provide the essential

services of the people. the argument is if one were to remit the to the states all of the money that's now going to the federal government on social welfare, the chances are states would dissipate, create more t hot dog stands and more public squalor in the face of mr. gal bury. isn't it true they have gone up far more than the increase in the gnp, the increase in the economy and that this itself suggests that certain states were stimulated into duty by the activity of the federal government. how do you handle a question of this nature? >> i think the people -- and this is always the argument. that the only reason the federal government stepped in was because the states failed. i challenge that argument.

i think it also ignores a practical advantage in so-called states rights. the advantage is if conditions are so terrible in one state, the federal system of 50 stats s gives the citizen the right to vote with his feet. there is a kind of built-in control on how bad a state government can get. if it passes a certain point people pack up and move to a state where things are better. this has been the historic pattern. we saw it a few years ago in michigan before governor romney went into office, under governor williams. finally the industrial picture had grown so bad the automobile plants were expanding across state lines, many of them into ohio. suddenly the people of michigan did something about it.

they realized the economy of the state was going down the drain. they took action. as historically has happened, i think we should look carefully at throwing away the control. say that all of the rules become uniform. that walter ruther has his way and unemployment insurance becomes the same nationwide and all the rules for disability insurance, all the rules for welfare, all of these things are a pattern nationwide. then if you object to the policies of government where do you go? you just stay where you are because there's not going to be better across the state line. >> that's the problem of the minority in any case, isn't it? most of the crucial decisions are now federal decisions, aren't they? and under the circumstances the minority has to get along with what the majority decides. what i understand you to be saying is let's accept the fact

that we need a strong federal government but let's at least let the states retain sufficient power to provide a certain variety of life within which people can express the individual preferences. >> i believe this but also that the state is better able to judge the needs of its people and even more than the state, the local community is. to say the same rate of unemployment pay or welfare or anything else should exist in some completely rural state where living costs are at a much lower level than they would be for that person in the same circumstances living in new york city, you just can't make the rules -- the uniform rules from washington. anything more than sacramento. can we make the rules that will fit alpine county.

it's just two different ways. it is believed people on the local scene know more about the needs of the people who must be helped than someone in sacramento can know about them in trying to establish uniform rules that fit alpine county, los angeles and san francisco. >> up next, what does reagan think of the supreme court's ever expanding notion of constitutional right is bad for america. america? ick with innovation. america? stick with power. stick with technology. get the new flexcare platinum from philips sonicare and save now.

philips sonicare.

well, did you know that just one sheet of bounce outdoor fresh gives you more freshness than two sheets of the leading national store brand? who knew? so, how do you get your bounce? with more freshness in a single sheet. so, how do you get your bounce? ♪ music

body language-- without saying a word, it can tell you so much. like someone is having a stroke... know the sudden signs. learn f.a.s.t. f- face drooping a-arm weakness s- speech difficulty t- time, time to call 911 immediately. the sooner they get to the hospital, the sooner they'll get treatment, and that can make a remarkable difference in their recovery. learn the body language, the sudden signs, and spot a stroke f.a.s.t.

we continue now with william f. buckley's 1967 interview with ronald reagan. >> governor, surely one of the problems we all face is the constant enlargement of our constitutional rights. you and i live in a progressive universe. when we die we'll have four or five times as many constitutional rights as when we were worn. a court told the prison authorities they couldn't proceed with executions required under the california law. was there a federal constitutional question involved there? >> well, i think there was a certain violation or something by way of the judicial process. as a matter of fact, i'm breathlessly waiting for the

same judge the to pass an edict that there can't be any more crimes of violence. >> i'm sure you might be tempt ed to oblige you. haven't we seen an evolution of the constitutional rights so that the supreme court saying that a labor union has a right to fine those of the members that doesn't followrd ohhers when told to observe a picket line. therefore can't we similarly project that in the course of the next 10, 15, 20 or 40 years almost every right you and i now consider to be a right primarily protected by the state will burgeon into a constitutional right so there will be an

overlying tissue of protective devices to render the states this their influence. >> will that really be an enlargement of our constitutional freedoms or will it not be an invasion of the constitutional rights? did they not give the union a right that superceded the constitutional freedom of the individual. >> p that would be my own notion. i find that the supreme court proceeds without reference. >> if the supreme court goes farther i will ask them to solve our water problem. there are increased rights. we have freedom of speech, you and i. but if we continue in the policy i can expect some day that the court will rule that you and i have the right to force these

people to listen. i do think we have the right. >> yes. sometimes they come close to that implication. i agree. there again when you ran for governor you backed an ant anti-pornography law. the chances of getting one through are slight considering the supreme court's position on such matters which once again brings up the question can somebody be a successful governor. are we walking into a situation where theoretically you might be leched unanimously and having been elected unanimously on a pam of, let's say ten reforms you may find all ten of them are all forbidden. either practically or legally. legally because the supreme court has ruled that you can't pass anti-pornography but you can't finance these reforms.

do you think ten or 20 years from now the office of governor would be like the office of the lieutenant governor of the provinces in canada, pretty much a ritual office, a handshaking office. >> well, they will have a fight with governors before it happens. i don't think there is a question. you and i are well aware that in washington in higher circles, while not too outspoke en about it, they nursed the idea that the states should become administrative districts of the federal government. that we have outworn this system of ours. they will find they are just as wrong at atbout that as the bleg hearts have been about doing away with nationalism, that people will have no patriotic pride in their country. but you talk about the impossibility to be a governor and some of the things that can

happen. i'll tell you right now. i won't ask for a unanimous vote. i will just settle for more people of my party in the assembly and one more in the senate. >> it is a problem, isn't it? the question so far as i understand it is have we reached the point where there is a sufficient popular frustration with the with incapacity of the states to maneuver as a result of all of the obstacles thrown in their way by the federal government that there will be a national protest which will be reflected in harmonious legislation by congress and a certain feeling of self-inhibition exercised by the supreme court. >> i will tell you. you may have let yourself in for a speech and they may have to shut me off again here. i campaigned on a belief in the people. i called ate creative society. i campaigned on a belief that

the people are the best custodian of their own affairs. i think we are proving it in california. some of the people who opposed the theory who want government by mystery. they don't want government by the people. they want to keep alive the illusion that government is so complicated people don't understand it and just accept what government does. i oppose this. the only resource i have had in the months i have been in office is every once in a while when issues grow hot is to go to the people. i go by way of television reports to the people. it's been amazing. i think the government of california costs too much. much too much. i trimmed and whittled it as much as i could. it looks different from the budget you will see when it will reflect our philosophy in what

we are doing in savings and government. an individual that says, i want a job in government. we sought people. i took leading citizens in the state and formed them into a recruiting team. they devoted many hours each day to this. they twisted arms of employers to spring bright young men from the companies. we have a level of personnel in the government. almost every one of them had to take a cut in income. we had men who took jobs at the regular state salary. then we went beyond that. we have over 200 of the most successful businessmen and professional people organized in task forces all over the state government. organized into teams or task

forces on the basis of their specialties. they are devoting four to six hos full time away from their businesses and careers, away from the their families, living in motels and hotels. going into every department and agency and coming back to us with their reck membership days agos as to what they would do in that department as businessmen to make government more efficient. i was able to cancel a $4 million, ten-story building to be built in sacramento. the two agencieses that would occupy the building already have more space than they can possibly need beyond 1980. that building was to have started next month. it won't be built. there will be other buildings that disappear that way. we have a task force going over the tax structure. they have raised the money to hire professionals to help them in this to come back with a study that says this should be the task force geared to our type of economy you won't have

to come back and hit people over the head every other year for an increased rate. this is a tax structure that should go with the economy and increase and expand with the economy. we have turned to the people and the funny thing is it works. >> still to come, the concept of smaller government gets put to the test. and reagan is challenged to live up to his campaign promises. we'll be right back. we will be right back. i'm nathan and i quit smoking with chantix. when my son was born, i remember, you know, picking him up and holding him against me. it wasn't just about me anymore. i had to quit. [ male announcer ] along with support, chantix (varenicline) is proven o help people quit smoking. it reduces the urge to smoke. chantix didn't have nicotine in it, and that was important to me. [ male aouncer ] some people had changes in behavior, thinking or mood, hostility, agitation, depressed mood and suicidal tughts or action while taking or after stopping chantix. if you notice any of these, stop chantix and call your doctor right away. tell your doctor about any history of mental health problems, which uld get worse while taking chantix.

don't take chantix if you've had a seris allergic or skineaction to it. if you develop these, stop antix and see your doctor right away, as some coue life threatening. tell your docto if you have a history of heart or blood vessel problems, r if you develop new or worse symptoms. get medical help right away if you have mptoms of a heart attack or stroke. use caution when driving or opating machinery. common side effectslude nausea, trouble sleeping and unusual dreams. i had to qt smoking to keep up with this guy.

pop in the drum of any machine... ♪ ...to wash any size load. it dissolves in any temperature, even cold. tideod pop in. stand out.

a reprieve for those of you shopping for health insurance. the time to sign up under obamacare was supposed to be midnight this morning for coverage by january 1. now comes word that the white house will grant yet another extension for those who couldn't sign up due to lingering delays on the website. relatives of 13-year-old jahai

mcmass spent the day at her hospital bedside. she was declared brain dead after a tonsillectomy. her family will decide whether to allow the hospital to remove her from life support. don't blame santa if your christmas gifts haven't arrived yet. some shipments won't arrive until -- uh-oh -- tomorrow morning. i hope you have a wonderful christmas. back to "firing line." welcome back to this special presentation. i'm charles krauthammer. in 1966, ro nald reagan defeated pat brown in a landslide election. reagan campaigned on a platform of smaller government and won by more than 15 points. as we continued the william f. wukly's interview with reagan he

asked if the new governor would be able to deliver on a smaller government campaign promises. >> there is a lot of enthusiasm at the moment. won't it be difficult for this enthusiasm to be validated until people see a considerable change in the direction of the government? are you here to predict that they will see a change in due course? >> yes. as i say, i have to restrain myself because with we have to the wait this coming year that just began july 1. we have to wait this year to where we can tote up, add up and see if economies throughout the span of the year weren't just temporary, were able to -- we have reduced the number of state employees by more than 8% by putting a frees on the hiring of replacements. in april, our more business-like approach to oh the use of state automobiles resulted in a surplus of cars in every motor

pool in the state over and above the demand. by may, the reduction was 15%. i don't know the figures since then. we have reduced in five buildings by changing to modern business standards of building maintenance, we reduced the janitorial costs of the buildings by 309,000 a year. >> what is it about california or perhaps in the unique contribution of governor brown that caused this appetite for reform? why hasn't it swept other states of the t university off and on? >> maybe i have to quote mark twain. he was writing about california and said californians are a different breed. he said the easy and the slothful, the lazy stayed home. he said californians have a way of dreaming up vast projects and

carrying them out with with dash and daring. >> even if they are negative. a pretty shrewd observer. do you think these romantic impulses will reach us lazy and slothful? >> i don't think so. i think the pioneer quality is in all of america. i think we perhaps came to the turning point first i. think the fact that we were with highest per capita our tax paying state was almost double of the country. i think the timing was right that it started here. it was presented to the people of running their own atears. they grabbed at it.

the people are interested in government. there isn't ap thee for every problem there are ten people waiting to volunteer. if someone will show them where they can be with useful. >> yep. well now, let me take the california issue because i think it touches on the general question of whether or not one can be a good governor. we have seen now for several years, almost ten years that it's almost universitily been said that in california you have the best public education in the united states, particularly the best public higher education. somebody recently said about you that you are, quote, an enemy of education and a despoiler of the california way of life. scratching around, i see here that the enrollment in higher education in california is up three times during the past ten years.

operating costs are up four times. capital expenditures up four times. the population and therefore presumably the ability to pay was up only 40%. >> t at what point do you look at the people of california and say the quality of education in california is as high as we can happy for. we reach a point where with it doesn't make sense to proceed to drain all of the professors with higher and higher salaries. is there a limit ton patronage of the university in california. >> of course you aim t at the stars. there are always stars farther away. you keep trying for quality.

i think there are reviews necessary. there is a temptation in california that it is the greatest university system the in the world. we sit back smug land we have to be pretty realistic. i don't think it's the greatest with regard to teaching undergraduates. they built the reputation on research and attracting. we buried them in research projects and students never see them. the students are taught by teaching assistants. every once in a while we have to look and say, wait a minute, have we put up a great marquee and the display case and are we going overboard in filling the display case at the expense of something that's not so good behind? the trouble with government is

we make our claims on quantity. it isn't like private business where you are based on profit or a failure. one more education that i will states it better in one sentence. california led the nation in rehabilitation of people on welfare. we did lead the nation in amount per capita. we ranked 50th in successful re habitati habitation. the fact that we spend -- >> the difference between the right word and almost the right word is the difference between lightening and lightning bug. >> yes. >> is it possible to be a good go noornd a presidential candidate at the same time? we'll find out what ronaldle reagan thought. stick around. ♪

[ chicken caws ] [ male announcer ] when your favorite food starts a fight, fight back fast with tums. eartburn relief that neutralizes acid on contact and goes to work in seconds. ♪ tum, tum tum tum tums! that your favorite dutch apple pie starts with a golden flaky crust, wedges of fresh fuji apples, and a brown sugar streusel on top. so she made her dutch apple pie just like that. >> test >> test >> test

there's a new way to buy a car. it's called truecar. and truecar users... save time and money. so when you're... ready to buy a car, make sure you... never overpay. visit truecar.com today. female announcer: get beautyrest, posturepedic,

female announcer: even tempur-pedic mattress sets, at low clearance prices. save even more on floor samples, demonstrators and closeout inventory. the year end clearance sale is on now at sleep train. ♪ your ticket to a better night's sleep ♪

now more of william f. buckley, jr., and ronald reagan from a classic episode of "firing line". >> our topic is, "is it possible to be a good governor"? do you think it's possible to be a good governor and a candidate for president? >> well, now not being a candidate for president, how can i -- >> it's an abstract question. >> has to be a hypothetical one. yes, i would think that in the show case that you are in as a governor the people can judge your performance and decide whether they want to entrust you with a higher executive position. so i would think one of the first requirements for a

governor who aspired to the higher office would be to be a good governor. let the people see him in action. it's like trying out for the ball club. you have to stand up to the plate, run, hit and field. >> you don't see inconsistency to sum it up, so to speak? >> no. >> there would only be inconsistency if one were to abandon one's obligations to one's state because they got in the way of the pursuit of the other objective. >> yes. this is where i believe the wisdom of the people would see that. they would say, you know, if you can't do both you'd better do the job we are paying you for. >> what do you think of polls as a method of judging a governor's performance? >> well, i think that polls are a convenient way to measure the

instant affability of a proposal. the polls for new york state last year show that less than 25% of the people were satisfied with the stewardship of governor rockefeller. and a few months later, rockefeller won a significant victory, almost 50% of the vote. so i don't think they are very good strategic indices of how one is doing. but i think the polls are useful for avoiding revolutionary difficulties with with a public. as longs as the people are generally satisfied. i would say the revolutionary frictions that sometimes have arisen in the prepoll days. for instance in france and germany when the ruling elite was totally unaware of the extent of the unrest among the

voting population. >> winston churchill commented on that. he said, just as you have said, they are useful to a certain extent. the government that keeps its ear to the ground. it is undignified for a government. >> when we return, a taste of some classic ronald reagan humor. years before most of the country was exposed to it. was exposed to it's donut friday at the office. and i'm low man on the totem pole. so every friday morning they send me out to get the goods.

but what they don't know is that i'm using my citi thankyou card at the coffee shop, so i get 2 times the points. and those points add up fast. so, sure, make me the grunt. 'cause i'll be using those points to help me get to a beach in miami. and allllllll the big shots will be stuck here at the cube farm. the citi thankyou preferred card. now earn 2x the points on dining out and entertainment, with no annual fee.to apply, go to citi.com/thankyoucards [ male announc ] your eyes. even at a distance of 10 mis... the length 146 football fields... they can see the light of a single candle. your eyes are amazing. look after them with centrum silver. multivitamins with lutein and vitamins a, c, and e to support healthy eyes and packed with key nutrients to support your heart and brain, too. centrum silver. for the most amazing parts of you.

>> i told an audience the other day one of the dark days one came in and i was resting and i cheered up up and things got worse. no. >> it's of course, it's, we're a classic example. we inherited a structure of government built along a certain philosophy, we inherited financial problems, dependent upon. that now, we have to reorganize if we're going to succeed in making good in our promises to the people and philosophy they expressed and we've approved we have to start with the structure created. >> would you say that was mr. eyesen hower's? >> he vetoed 165 spending

measures in office. >> also, the size of government? >> yes. the -- >> would you say that was a policeeding 20 years and eight years is not a long period of time as far as that trend? or that he had insufficient he energy or conviction to change that trend? or only towards the end of the eight years in office? >> well, no. i would add something else in there. only one term of his eight years did he have a congress of his own philosophy under his own party. he was a president, isolated by a democratic congress carrying on the philosophy that had been in existence since 1932. and i say the greatest thing he can do was make numerous veto whez had

power to keep them from getting 2-thirds majority. >> and should you not name a governor if he has an account between senate and house? >> you blame that he just gives in and rides with it which i have no intention of doing. my great strength lies in veto pou yes, as long as i can keep republican members of the legislature loyal enough and in sympathy with our programs enough to refuse to join the opposition, then, i can exercise veto power as i did over the budget. >> you have the veto here? on the budget? . >> i wish i had it on a few other things. >> that is all of the time we have left this evening. we'd like to thank the hoover institution library and archives for making this broadcast possible. for more episodes of "firing line" including unedited

version of this program please visit their web site hoover.org. thank you for being with us. good night. the o'reilly factor is on, tonight. >> there has got to be someone who can defend christmas with a little more authority. >> over othe years we have taken on the role of protecting the federal holiday of christmas. >> once again, the grinch is back in the form of jon stewart. still denying there are anti-christmas forces afoot. and this story has major political implications. we will tell you what they are. >> i think the only thing that could be below you is to not have a job. >> yeah. >> [ applause ] >> go work until you can get the job that you want to have. >> a big tv star pushing self-reliance to american young people. we will take a look at ashton kutcher's campaign. >> i