and to all of our troops that have gone into harm's way for our country, merry christmas. >> merry christmas to all of you welcome to this fox news presentation of firing line. for 33 years and over 1500 episodes, firing line set the standard for public standard for public apairs. the program went off the air 14 years ago and william buckley jr. signed off it was the longest running program in history with a single host. for more than three decades buckley sparred with presidents

cultural icons from across the spectrum. as a result firing line was a true original that inspired commentators from both sides of the aisle and television programming from sunday mornings to weekday evenings. tonight we are pleased to bring you a seminole episode from july 6th. they are on the program by the recently corn in governor of california, ronald reagan. only six months into his first term there was already speculation that governor reagan might have his eye on a higher office. the topic of this program was is it possible to be a good governor? the questions asked during the show included an examination of

the relationship between an expanding federal government and the state will remain relevant today. taped in front of a studio audience in los angeles buckley was joined by his friend and sometimes program moderator williams. this program has been edited down from the original running time. but to see the complete episode you can visit the web site of the hoover institution and library and hoover.org. here now is governor ronald reagan on firing liern in -- firing line in 1967. >> i will act as chairman of this discussion between governor reagan and mr. buckley. the subject of the discussion is, is it possible to be a good governor? governor reagan would you answer mr. buckley's question?

not the federal government preefrp presidented the sources of faxatitaxation? >> this is one of the great problems endangering the federal system -- well the system of a federation of sovereign states. the federal government has preefrp presidentmpted so much source they find sources without upsetting the economic balance that can keep our economy moving around then in turn the state in its desperation for money reduces the local community where the real basic services the people must depend on every day are furnished. education, the police protection, the maintenance of the streets, sewer, garbage disposal and local communities are more desperate than the

states. the states end up taxing and a great amount of the money taxed goes back to the local communities. we go to washington, we are faced with this hat in hand prospect of asking for federal grants. i know i am accused of over simplifying. but it doesn't make sense to me for the federal government to take that money first and insist the only solution to our local problems is for them to take the money and then they dispense it back to you in grants in which they tell you how to spend it from washington, d.c. and of course like an agent with a hollywood actor there's a certain carrying charge that is detected in washington before you get it back again. i was -- well, i helped write a resolution for the republican governor's conference in colorado springs several months ago with a proposal as an experiment i thought it would

work and it would work might lead away from this federal grant thing. my proposal was that the federal government with the kind of experiment designate a percentage say it was only 2 percent of the federal income tax. as that money is collected in each state let the internal revenue collector for that state send 98 percent to washington and simply spend two percent of the total amount to the state government. >> in other words, use the facilities in tax gathers facilities of the federal government is what it comes down to. >> and give it back to the state with no strings attached. >> the so-called hilla plan. isn't it? what about the notion that it ought to be remitted to the states with reference to need, that is to say sending back a little more of it to those states that especially need the money a little bit less than the states that are less opulent.

would you be in favor of extending the principal over into that or not? >> well, now let's just experiment with an idea. this also came up at the governor's conference. there were governors who said there were states that had to be penned that were poverty states that didn't have the resources of the big industrial states. i challenge, i question this really. but at the same time their idea was that if we did this system, and this became effective and these states would not be getting an additional subsidy. now it makes it a little more respectable for those states to get with the federal grant than it does to admit what they are saying we want our fellow states around us to kick in and help support us. so i made another suggestion, i said this should be true and wouldn't the first step, maybe eventually you would have to discover there is a state that

requires subsidies, requires fellow men in the country to help it out. before you come to that why shouldn't you take those states in lesser income and if the percentage of income tax is 2 percent for the rest of us give them a bigger share of their own money then but then keep 4 percent, 5 percent, whatever is needed so it is their own money being left at home to take care of it before you have to branch out and see if someone else will take care of it. >> i gather this proposal is made on the assumption they would continue to benefit unequally from those funds attained by the federal government and then disbursed, correct? for instance the state of california gets only $75 per person from the federal government in the course of the typical year, where as the state of alaska gets $447 per person. now under the reagan plan the

state of alaska would still be getting much more than the state of california, but in addition it would have a greater return from its own revenue. okay, now, what in fact as governor of california can you do considering that your proposals are not going to be enacted into law by congress? what kind of scope do you have left considering on the one hand the limited resources of people even in california and on the other hand the federal dread that comes in on the 15th of aifrp ry year and scoops up everything in sight you have to maneuver within what's left? >> we are in that position right now here is a state that is one of the highest tax paying states in the union per capita. and we at the same time as a result of several years of careless management of our

funds, we are in the desperate financial plight. california in violation of its own constitution is spending more than it takes in. and we have come to the day of reckoning. now we suddenly have to turn to the people of california and ask them for upwards of a billion dollars in i can't call it new taxes. we are getting along without new taxes, we are just raising the old ones about a million dollar las. but at the same time knowing the competitive position of california with other states in attempting to keep industry here, keep our people employed, competing commercially in our exports with other states that are in the same business or businesses, we have to be very careful that we don't make it uneconomic for business to operate in california. we must present a tax bill with the sword hanging over us that washington which insists on controlling the economy through

taxation has its own ideas about the increased taxes to control inflation. so washington is sitting there threatening an income tax increase and yet the income tax is one of the sources we must turn to. now how far can we go with that sword hanging up there before when they let the sword fall we find that we have just out destroyed ourselves? >> up next a man who would go on to lead the country to base how much power the federal government should have

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>> welcome back to this special presentation of "firing line." in 1967 discussions between william f. buckley, jr. and then governor ronald reagan.

reagan would of course to go ton to lead 50 states. so the question of how much power the federal government should have over the states would be more important than a casual viewer in 1967 might have imageled. let's rejoin william f. buckley. >> let me ask you this, since a lot of people routinely cynical about the whole notion of state's rights, it has been very widely contended for instance most recently by senator tidings of maryland that americans like to talk about states rights because there is still a certain glamor to the argument and a certain scientific exact tude of the whole notion of pluralism and federalism and so on. but in fact the states haven't historically acted in such a way as to provide the essential services of the people.

his argument and that of a great many others is if one were to remitt to the state all of the money going to the federal government the chances are the states simply dissipate and create more hot dog stands and more public squall lar in the face of this. isn't it true the state's revenues have risen since the second world war far in excess of the increase in the gnt, an increase in the economy, and that this itself suggests certain states stimulated into doing their duty by the activity of the federal government? how do you handle a question of this nature? >> well, i think the people -- this is always the argument, that well the only

and taxes are not uniform, there's a kind of built in control on how bad a state government can get. because if it passes a certain point the people just pack up and move to another state where things are better. this has been the historic pattern. we saw this a few years ago in michigan before governor romney went into office under governor williams, finally the industrial picture had grown so bad that the automobile plants were doing all of their expanding across state lines many into ohio. suddenly the state of michigan

did something about it they realized the economy of their state was going down the drain and they took action. as historically happened and i think we should look very carefully on throwing away this control. let's say that all of the rules become uniform, walter ruther has his way and unemployment insurance becomes the same nationwide and all of the rules for disability insurance, all of the rules f all of these things become a pattern nationwi nationwid nationwide, and then if you object where do you go? you stay where you are because it's not going to be any better across the state line. >> that's always the problem of the minorities in the case isn't it? it is true most of the crucial decisions in the united states are now federal decisions around they? under the circumstances of minority unless you want to become a patriot you get along with what the majority decides.

let's accept the fact we need a strong federal government but for heaven's sakes let's let the states retain sufficient power so as to provide a certain variety of life within which people can express individual preferences? >> i believe this but i believe the state is better able to judge the needs of its people and even more than the states, the local community is. therefore to say that the same rate of unemployment pay or welfare or anything else should exist in some completely rule state where living costs are at a much lower level than they would be for that person in the sament circumstances living in new york city, you just can't make those rules, those uniform rules from washington and have them fit the country any more than here in sacramento can we make the rules that will fit alpine county here in our mountains and los angeles

county. they -- it is too different ways of life. i am one in administering welfare think that those know more about the needs of the people who must be helped that someone in sacramento can know about them in trying to establish uniform rules that fit los angeles, san francisco and alpine county. >> up next, what does ronald reagan think of the idea that the supreme court's ever expanding notion of constitutional right is bad for america? [ woman 1 ] why do i cook? to share with family. [ woman 2 ] to carry on traditions. [ woman 3 ] to come together even when we're apart. [ male announcer ] in stuffing, mashed potatoes,

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they are going to proceed with the executions required under the california law, was there a federal constitutional question involved there? >> i think there was a certain violation or something by way of judicial process. i am waiting for the same judge

to pass an edict there can't be any more crimes and violence. >> and i am sure he might be very tempted to oblige you. the question i am raising is, haven't we seen an evolution the whole notion of post constitutional rights are so that you see for instance the supreme court saying, as it recently did, that a reunion has the right to fine those of its members who don't follow its orders when they are told to observe a picket line. it comes a federal constitution guarantee question. can't we simply project that in the course of the next 10, 15, 20, 40 or 50 years almost every life that you now consider to be a right that is primarily protected by the state is going to come out in some sort of a constitutional right so there will be an over lying tissue of

protective devices that are going to renter t -- render the states more contiguous in the influence. >> will that be a enlargement of our constitutional freedoms or an invasion of the constitutional rights. did they not give the union a right that superseded the constitutional freedom of the individual? >> that would be my own notion. i find the supreme court proceed without reference. >> i am going to rap a rock on a stick and solve our water problems. no, i think they are violating. these enlarged rights, these increased rights we have freedom of speech you and i. if we continue in the policy and int statierpretation of the cou expect some day the court will rule you and i have the right to

force the people to listen. i don't think we do have that right. >> sometimes they come close to that implication. i agree. there again when you ran for governor you backed an anti pornography law. the chances of you getting one too a through are slight on such matters which again brings out the question can somebody be a successful governor. we walk into situations where theoretically you might be elected unanimous and having been elected unanimously you might on a program of let's say 10 reforms you might find all ten of them are forbidden either practically or legally. legally because supreme court ruled you can't pass anti pornography practically because you don't have the resources at your disposal with which to finance these reforms.

do you think that ten, 20-years from now the office of governor will be almost like the office of the left governor of the providences in canada pretty much a ritual office a handshaking office? >> well they are going to have a fight with some governors. i don't think there's any question you and i are well aware in washington in higher circles while not too owl spo n outspoken about it they nurse the idea that we have out warned this system of ours. they are going to find they are just as wrong about that as some of the bleeding hearts have been wi about the idea we can do away with nationalism that people will have no patriotic pride in their own country. but when you talk about the impossibility to become a governor in soand some of these things that can happen, i tell

you right now, i won't ask for a un man mouse vote, i will just set will for four more people of my party in the assembly and one more at the senate. >> it is a problem isn't it? the question is, have we reached the point where there is a sufficient popular frustration with the incapacity of the states in the universe as a result of all of the obstacles thrown in their way by the federal government that there will be a national protest which will be reflective in harmonious legislation by congress and a certain feeling of self inhibition exerciseed by the supreme court? they should being executed. >> you may elect yourself in for a speech and they may have to shut me off here. i campaign in belief in the people. i called it a creative society. i campaigned on a belief that

the people are the best custodians of their own affairs. i think we are proving it in california. some of the people who oppose this theory who still want government by mystery. they don't want government by the people. they want to keep alive the illusion that government is so complicated the people don't understand it and therefore accept what government does, and as i say, i oppose this. the only recourse i have had in the few months i have been in office is every once in a while when the issues grow hot is doing to the people. i go by way of television in reports to the people. it has been amazing. i ran on an economy platform. i think the government costs much too much. i am bound in by a budget inherited that had been created under the philosophy of the former administration. but the budget looks different than when we reflect our policy

and what we are doing in savings in government. i turned to the people. we didn't take the normal individual who worked in a campaign and said now i want a job in government. we went out and sought people. i took a committee in the citizens in the state north and south and formed them into a recruiting team. they devoted many hours each day to this and you go out and find them. they twisted arms of employers to spring bright young men to these companies. we have a level of administrative personnel in this government that is unmatched by any in the united states. we had people earning 6 figures a year who took jobs at regular state salary. we have over 200 successful businessmen and professional men in the state of california right now organized into task forces. they are organized into teams and task forces on the basis of

their specialties. they are devoting six months away from their businesses and careers away from their families living in motels and hotels but they are going in every department and agency in the state government and coming back to us with their recommendations as to what they would do in that department as businessmen to make government more efficient. the other day i was able to simply cancel a $4.10 story building that was to be built in sacramento because they found the two agencies that were going to occupy that building already have more space than they could need beyond 1980. that was to start next month and it won't be built. there are other buildings that could disappear that way. we have the task force going over the entire tax structure that raised the money to hire professionals to come back with this and help them with a study that says this should be the task force geared to our type of the economy that you won't have

to come back hitting people over the head every other year for an increased rate. this is a tax structure that could go with the economy increase and expand with the economy. we have turned with the people in all of these ways and the fun any thing is it works. >> still to come the concept of the mauler government gets put to the best. am ronald reagan is challenged to live up to his campaign promises. we will be right back. we could see that the weather was kind of getting bad.

here's the crawl space, the hole -- that's what saved our life. but that night, immediately, the red cross was there. that volunteer, he didn't even know us. he just knew that there was a family with two younger kids who didn't have a place to go. that was the red cross. i knew that's what they stood for. they help people. president obama thanking american troops for their service this christmas. he and first lady michelle obama just paid a visit to the marine corps based in hawaii where the first family is vacationing. they were also served christmas dinner. the president reportedly taking the time to pose for individual pictures with each service member.

if you're still waiting for a christmas gift in the mail, it's not santa's fault. u.p.s. and fedex blaming delays on weather and overloaded systems. they won't say how many packages were delayed, but they claim it was a small share of overall shipments. packages should arrive by the end of the week. now back to firing line. line." >> welcome back to the special presentation of "firing line." i am charles krauthammer. in 1966 ronald reagan defeated incumbent democratic governor pat brown in a land slidell election. reagan campaigned on a platform of smaller government and won by more than 16 points as we continue with william f.

buckley's interview with reagan he asked if the new governor would be able to deliver on a smaller government campaign promise. >> there is a lot of enthusiasm but won't it be difficult for this enthusiasm to be really validated until people see considerable change in the direction of government and you are here to predict they will be seeing that change in due course? >> yes. i have to restrain myself. we have to wait this coming year that began july 1st to where we can total up and add up and see what the economies through out the span of the year weren't just temporary we were able to hold. we have reduced the number of state employees by 8 percent by simply putting a freeze on the hiring of replacements. in april our more business like approach to the state of automobiles resulted in a surplus of cars in every motor

pool in the state over and above the demand. by april it was reflected in a 10 percent reduction inme the amount of gasoline they bought. i don't know the figures sips then. we have simply changed to modern business standards of building maintenance we have reduced the janitorial costs of those buildings by 309,000 dollars a year. >> what is it about california and the unique contribution of governor brown that caused this appetite for reform? why hasn't it swept other states of the union for instance? >> maybe i have to quote mark twain. 100-years ago mark twain was writing about california. he said californians are a different breeze, the easy and the sloth bone the lazy state home. he said californians have a way

of dreaming up vast projects and carrying them out with dash and daring. >> either they are negative. mark twain was a pretty shrewd observer. but do you think these generous and romantic impulses will one day reach us lazy and slofful at the other end? >> i think the pioneer quality is in it all of america. ifrng what real -- i think what really happened is we came to the turning point first. i think the fact that we were the highest tax paying state per capita that our property tax was almost double the per capita property tax of the country, i think it just simply, the timing was right that it started here and when it was rented to the people the idea of running their own affairs they grabbed at it and as i say they are proving

that it will work, the people are interested in government there isn't an apathy. for every problem there are 10 people waiting to volunteer if someone will give them a lead and show them where they can be useful. >> let me take the specific california issue. it touches on the general question of whether or not one can be a good governor. we have seen for several years almost 10 years that it is almost universally being said that in california you have the best public education in the united states sp united states particularly the best public higher education. someone said of you you are an enemy of education and a spoiler of the california way of life. now, i see here that the enrollment in higher education in california is up three times during the past ten years operating costs up four times

capital expenditures up four times, where as the population and therefore presumably the ability to pay is up only 40 percent. at what point do you look at the people of california and say, the quality of education in california is as high as we can reasonably hope for it to be? we reach a point where it doesn't make any sense to provide to dream all of the professors who are currently teaching in michigan or in new york or are reaching higher and higher salaries. is there a limit to the extent to which there ought to be a pat kron edge of the university system in california? >> well, of course you aim at the stars there are always stars further away. you keep trying for quality.

i think there are reviews necessary that there is a temptation in california to say the university of california is the greatest university system in the world and therefore we sit back smugly. i think we have to be pretty realistic. i don't think it's the greatest with regard to teaching under graduates. the university of california built the reputation on research and on attracting great scholars under the guise these are professors that teach our young and we bury them under research projects and the students never see them and the students are caught by teaching assistance. every once in a while we have to shake ourselves and take a look and say wait a minute -- we put up a great marquis and the display case and are we beigoin over board in filling that display case at the expense of something that is not so good behind? the trouble with government is

we make our claims on quantity. it isn't like private business you show a profit you are either successful on the basis of a profit or you are a failure. will the me turn from education to another in one sentence. we boast for example california now led the nation in rehabilitation of people on welfare. we did lead the nation in the amount of per capita we were spending. you dig a little deeper you find we ranked 50th -- >> in successful rehabilitation. the fact that we -- >> you take the difference between the right word and almost the right word is the difference between lightening and lightening bug. >> yes. >> coming up, is it possible to be a good governor and presidential candidate at the same time? we will find out what ronald reagan thought. stick around. ick with innovation.

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>> now more of william f. buckley jr. and ronald reagan with a classic episode of "firing line." >> our topic is, is it possible to be a good governor? do you think it is possible to be a good governor at the same time you are a candidate for president? >> not being a president for candidate. >> an abstract question. >> has to be a hypothetical one. >> well, yes, because i would think in the showcase that you were in as a governor the people can judge your performance and decide whether they want to entrust you with a higher executive position. so i would think one of the first requirements for a governor who is highered to the

higher office would be to be a good governor. people seeing you in action is like trying out for the ball club. you have to stand up to the plate you have to run and hit the field. >> you don't see any inconsistency to sum it up so to speak. >> only be an inconsistency if one were to abandon one ace obligations to one's state because it got in the way of the other objective? is>> of course this is where i believe the wisdom of the people would see that. they would say if you can't do both you better do the job we are paying you for. >> mr. buckley, what do you think of polls as a method of judging a governor's performance? >> well, i think that polls tend to be convenient ways of measuring the instant af abil y

ability. the polls in new york state last year showed that less than 25 percent of the people were satisfied with the stewart ship of governor rockefeller and governor rockefeller two months later won a pretty significant victory so that i don't think they are very good strategic indexes of how one is doing, but i think polls are useful for avoiding revolutionary difficulties with a voting public slovengs the people are generally satisfied. the revolutionary restrictions sometimes have' risen in the prepole days for instance in grans a france and germany when they were unaware of the extent of the unrest among the voting

population or unvoting population. >> winston churchill had a comment on that he said they are useful in a certain extent the government that keeps its ear to the ground by way of a quote is rather dignifying position for a government. >> when we return a taste of classic ronald reagan humor years before most of the country was exposed to [ male announcer ] marie callender's knows that your favorite dutch apple pie starts with a golden flaky crust, wedges of fresh fuji apples, and a brown sugar streusel on top. so she made her dutch apple pie just like that. marie callender's. it's time to savor.

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>> contrary to mind. we inherited the financial problems at the end of the mess. and now we have to reorganize if we are going to succeed in making good in our promises to the people and the philosophy we express and they approved. we have to start literally with the very structure they created. >> would you say that was mr. eisenhower's difficulty when he became president? >> oh, yes. i think the very fact that -- and this is overlooked a great deal with him. the very fact that one of his most notable achievements, he

had 165 spending measures during his term in office. >> also enormously increased the price of government. >> yes. the -- >> would you say that was the inertia of the years of the deal and that eight years is not a sufficiently long period of time to change that trend or simply that he had institutional over it or if you prefer the third al trntive that he only towards the end of his eight years in office started to see it. >> no. i'd add something else in there. that only one term of his entire eight years did he have a congress of his own philosophy and his own -- and of his own party. he was a president isolated by a democratic congress that was carrying on literally the philosophy that had been in existence since 1932. and as i say, the greatest thing he could do was in those numerous vetoes when he had the

power to keep them from getting the two-thirds majority. >> shouldn't be president if he has a recalcitrant congress. >> my great strength as far as this government is concerned lies in the veto power. as long as i can keep the republican members of the legislature loyal enough and in sympathy with our programs enough to refuse to join the opposition overriding a veto, then i can exercise a veto power as i did over the budget. >> you have the item by item detail here on the budget. >> i wish i had it on a few other things. >> and that is all the time we have left this evening. weld like to thank the hoover institution library and ar archives for making this

possible. for more showings of firing line or seeing this visit their website hoover.org. thank you for being with us. good night. website, hoover.org. thank you for being with us. good night. tonight, rush limbaugh goes on the record, and in a rare interview, rush tells us, president obama likes scandals, so why did the president spend so much time this year calling very real scandals phony? everything from the irs scandal to the benghazi attack? and now our one-hour interview with rush limbaugh. >> talking about the scandals, president obama says the scandals are phony. why do you think he says they're phony? because he believe it is or is there a strategy? >> no, there's a strategy. i've been troubled by something with the obama, you know, i call it the regime as i kno i