> >> we are getting very funny tweets. check us out on facebook the kelly files. >> 2000 years ago one super power drones dominated the world it became famous for the military and having ruled in the law and a stable currency. they built beautiful buildings, aqueducts they created art ks literature, flourished for more than 200 years in relative peace and prosperity. then is crumbled. why? political leaders grabbed power. that turned many into tyrants who indulged into debauchery they raised taxes to pay for more increased regulation.

they tried to please them with handouts. >> sound familiar? is this what is happening to america? thousands of us have gathered here to debate that. that's our show tonight. >> and now, john stossel. (cheers) >> tonight i am in las vegas, nevada for a special edition of our show. i would like to say that all of these people came here just for that but they really came for freedom fest the world's biggest gathering of free minds. this year's topic, are we becoming rome? free minds that's the phrase we like to use to describe

ourselves. i think our minds are unusually free. right? (cheers) we had to free our mind to get this. on to tonight's topic, rome. is the united states about to fall as roerm dme did. here is a picture of barbarians packing the city. is this our future? first we hear from a conservative and a libertarian. you have the libertarian leanings but historian karl brish shard is an expert on rome and libertarian matt kib bee of freedom works and matthew first. are we becoming rome? >> i think we are. the parallels are quite ominous. the expansion is foreign policy arrogance of executive power taking over.

i think we have a chance to stop it. >> i think there are similarities not only with the fall of the empire which is what most people talk about when they talk about the fall of rome but the fall 500 years earlier. i see rome engaging in unconstitutional act political leaders and i see that. >> unconstitutional acts like ballot boxes? >> under the table corruption. but it doesn't bother me as much as the old mert for instance marius elected council six years in a row even though under the roman constitution it was a term one year. people kept voting for him they knew it was unconstitutional. >> now we have congress passing laws they haven't read. >> we have the presidents of both parties legislating by executive order saying i am not

going to enforce certain laws i don't like them. we have bureaucrats through regulations we have supreme courts saying it's constitutional for the government to take your property and sell it to someone else>> yes, you can always find parallels but the fact that we are meeting it shows the antidote is coming about. we the people have not gone away and totally corrupted the way romans were. we are not past it. despite irs depression the tea party movement is coming back again. you can see it in 2014 and 2013. (applause) >> they may try to feed us to the lions but we are going to own the lions because we believe in free enterprise. >> that is a happy thought.

i wish i were as optimistic as you. i fear we will become rome. let me poll the audience. how many think we are going down the tubes we are in deep trouble. >> close. how many of you think we are going to turn it around? (applause) >> they can't both be true. but again, you are not a normal audience. you are libertarians, right? whas whacko birds according to john mccain that's what he called libertarian politicians. walking around at the conference and seeing tea party moves and people selling investments in gold and game show quizzes to test your knowledge on economists, you have to

understand why we get our reputation as eccentric and wonkish and different. is this unfair? is it fair? isn't this group mostly men, mostly badly dressed men? going to libertarian events this is what i notice. people who care about numbers, less about how they look. i think steve forbes is a perfect example of this. the epitome of the wonkish geek. is this unfair? >> you are sounding like my own po opponent. i didn't expect that from you. let's face it the people that make things happen you can describe our forefathers and revolution narp res in the same way. they are always the minority. say something wrong go out and

persuade agitate tors and change the world. we have done it once we are holding go to do it again. we are going to be the leader. you have all people should know don't look at the superficial. look at the substance. we have the substance that's why we are going to ultimately win. >> i admire that. this is the optimism that makes america possible. what about my libertarian slur? people would say this is not a normal guy when they see your side burns. >> definitely guilty as charged. >> you go to a thousand of these meetings, are the people different? how? oo ewe are different because we have red books and we care about -- (cheers)

but social awkwardness is not a sin. it is a defensive liberty. >> i am socially awkward, too. i over come it because i have a tv show. ask my friends i am socially awkward. what is it about people who like to analyze? is bill clinton is the opposite. he felt your pain and spent more money. personality type? economists would say every time we fight and care about our country they would say we are irrational. we care not only about the country but our future and kid's future. that is not normal in this country. >> they are always trying to see things that others aren't

seeing. you do marketing survey they said no people don't know what we want until we show them. put it out there and see if they like it. often times we fail. that's what freedom is about. take a chance, learn, do it better next time. if we accept the conventional wisdom we would still be living in caves. >> we are going to try to show them tonight. do you have more historical perspective? >> the high spending. >> they had high spending. >> evaluation of currency. >> the empire so-called silver coin was only two percent silver. that's how they devalued it. it got to the point that the roman government would not accept its own sur ren ksee in tax -- currency in taxes. it was in goods.

>> thank you. coming up gladiators devalue currency, a growing welfare state other ways america is just too much like rome.

>> now the welfare state. europe has one and even rome has one. i didn't know that until i came to this conference. two people who have educated me are charles murray author of can "losing ground." and larry reed of fied a found tation for economic education. larry i learned from you the welfare state started halfway through the empire. >> it took the form first of payments to recipients in the form of subsidized grain and government gave it away at half price. the problem was they couldn't will stop there. there was a man named flotius

who ran on the free wheat for the masses and he won and it was downhill from there. >> they gradually raised taxes and gave stuff away and increase. >> including free salt, free pork, free olive oil other staples of the roman diet. >> people who show up and pick it up. >> there would be long lines. in fact they had a means test at one time and did away with it so that anybody could show up and get this free stuff. >> they decided everybody had to be educated by the state? >> nod everybodyieverybody but public schools. >> that was much later. rome grew to greatness with largely home schooling. and the first public schools. the first public schools didn't appear until around 50 bc and they weren't funded by the

government until later. >> they mocked them for being backwards. they didn't last near as long as the romans did. >> you have educated us about welfare about the handouts. you see parallels with rome? is>> if you take a look at the roman society it looks a whole lot like we do now. it is not just because of the welfare state the people on the bottom, it is also because of the people on the top who are increasingly living isolated from the rest of us. i like the parallels between the roerm and the united states to be very scary. >> clearly the welfare state is much of life horrible unintended consequences. but do we just get rid of it? let me ask you libertarians. you are pretty hard-core i assume. should america get rid of all

handouts? (applause) what would happen the first time somebody starves? they say chariot. you wrote "losing ground. what do you think? >> if we got rid of the entire welfare state the ability of this wealthy society to deal with the problems would work. but i also would say -- i am going to go with you wimpy on y. i don't think it is within the realm of possibility for an skrilized society with as much wealth as we have to ever do that politically. i think that libertarians are going to have to strike a grand p compromise to the left saying we will give you a fixed spending if you will give us freedom from

government interference. i say look, i am with bill friedman i say use a guaranteed basic income for everybody under 21 de podside pozity it into a account and let people take their lives back into their own hands. they will have the wherewithal they can deal with the material and subsidies if they do not do it they are going to have to talk to friends, neighbors, churches, the community. they are going to have to take their case. >> i am going to push back. a better book "in pursuit of happiness and good government." which really brought my mind around. but this book, you are telling me you are going to give them

the money and they will spend it all in two months and the social worker is going to go on tv and say -- >> no social worker. >> the new york times reporter will go on and say, you are going to let this woman's children starve? it's not their fault then we have a whole new program. >> here's what you are going to have, john. you are going to have somebody who gets it in the first two weeks. there will be another two weeks before there's a knew deposit in his monthly account. see i don't have any money. he don't have the option of going to a social worker. he has to go to the people he lives around and say, i really need help. they are not going to let you die but it is time to get your act together. we will introduce once again the kinds of human connections that are the only way to change human behavior. >> if we don't find the connections we will die in the streets. >> united states will never let young people die on the streets.

what we don't have now, now we have bureaucrats who can't make the distinction between somebody who needs a kick in the pants and somebody who needs a pat on the back. we will put them back in the venue of human relationship where by you can apply the feedback incentives and disdain and citying lstigma and all of the rest>> this audience is different than most in that they understand before the welfare state there was these mu tile aid societies every where which helped people. >> there's nothing about being a politician that makes you more compassionate and caring than the people who send you there. >> compassionate with other people's money. >> i come from the premise of it's not the business of the government to redistribute our stuff. it is the business of government to protect our liberties.

>> in rome when they gave out stuff it often went to the wealthier people? oo without a means test which was the case in roman history anybody could line up to get these goods can i contributed to the ultimate bankruptcy of the remoman state. >> one telling graph of the poverty state, look how the poverty line dropped sharply for five years after the with aer on poverty began. then you look at what happened before the war on poverty began al and the line was just as sharp. government kept things improving>> the great untold story of the poverty rate is there was a miracle that happened in the early 1960s. it was cut from 40 percent of the adults were beneath the poverty line to about 20 percent. the world poverty starts the line continues to go down for a

couple years and it flattens out where it has been for several years. >> we changed the rules of the game that made it profitable for low income people and young lower income people to do things that looked like gee this made sense in the short term but disastrous in the long-term. >> i think the primary beneficiaries are the welfare sta -- politicians not the people for the welfare state. >> the welfare state is so lame because the politicians get well and the rest of us pay the fare. >> thank you larry reed and charles barry. >> did you know one roman emperor held four g's than the wives who did not atenld. the creepyness of rome when we return. (dad) just feather it out. that's right. (son) ok. feather it out. (dad) all right. that's ok. (dad) put it in cond, put it in second. (dad) slow it down. put the clutch in, break it, break it.

(dad) st like i showed you. dad, you didn't show me, you showed him. dad, he's gonna wreck the car! (dad) he's not gonna wreck the car. (dad) no fighting in the road, please. (d) put your blinker on. (son) you didn't even give me a chance! (dad) ok. (mom vo) we got the new subaru because nothing could break our old one. (dad) ok. (son) what the heck? let go of my seat! (mom vo) i hope the same goes for my husband. (dad) you guys are doing a great job. seriously. (announcer) love a car that lasts. love. it's what makes subaru, a subaru.

♪then suddenly ♪it's hard to breathe ♪now and then i get insecure ♪from all the pain ♪i'm so ashamed would it be ok if i sat here? ♪i am beautiful no matter what they say♪ is she serious? ♪i am beautiful no matter what they say♪ what ver! ♪words can't bring me down♪ new irl! ♪words can't bring me down♪

♪i am beautiful in every single way♪ ♪yes, words can't bring me down.♪ ♪so don't you bring me down today♪

>> welcome back to this special edition of the stossel show. we are in vegas for the freedom fest. most here are libertarians. we want to shrink government we don't like taxes. but we need national defense and local police, some pollution control rules, too. there are some things most of us say government should do. how do they get the money? taxes. got to have some, yes? it's a tough crowd here. i see why. our taxes always tend to go up. that was part of rome's problem. two people who tried to spread the word about the damage taxes do. grover north was head of the tax reform. they had politicians pledge to never raids tax-- raise taxes. steve morris covers for the wall

street journal. grover rome had high tax rates? >> not always. for 400 years they had no real direct internal taxes because they looted their neighbors. >> we are not advocating that. >> we had talks with canadians but that may not work out. even that wasn't enough. they started having dramatically higher taxes the amount of money they spent on the army to occupy the other guys than perhaps they were able to extract. >> they started with tariffs. >> they had tariffs. they were august gusttis first c constantine brought us first income tax. all of this stuff they were living with property taxes, so rough that people were abandoning their property andng. then they had to pass laws to

not let you leave your property. towards the end it got very, very rough and it is part of why things didn't work. >> pun penalty for not paying your taxes was being sold in slavery. >> or killed. >> modern day irs. that is what they do now. when they would demand payment in gold and silver the only way to pay it was to sell children in slavery or yourselves into slavery. >> one percent i read was the highest income tax. >> what happened in rome is one of the reasons rome fell they kept collecting more and more money from the tributaries the outlying areas and it all went into rome and you had a massive revolt among the people all over the country who weren't in rome. >> that is happening in america today i think. people are sick and tired of seeing their tax dollars sent to

washington and none of that coming back to the state from where it came. you lower federal taxes and that is one of the great things fwe are a federalist system. the federal government did not create the states. >> the reaction to the tax farmers -- >> they called them tax farmers? >> tax collectors. it was so bad in one revolt they killed about 80,000 of them in a day or two. (applause) >> we don't advocate killing tax collectors on the show. >> it was a four-year war that they waged to put down that revolt. it was clearly a serious tax revolt. >> to your point when you asked me about the 1 percent taxi don't know what the tax rates for in rome but when we created the federal income tax in the united states back around 1913,

1915 the income tax rate was 20 percent. in ten years it went from 20 percent to 70 percent. that is why i believe steve forbes had it right go to 18 percent flat tax get rid of all of the deductions and loopholes. 9 people most opposed to the flat tax. people are opposed to the flat tax are people in washington, d.c. you take the power away from washington. >> when we went into revolt in 1774, americans were paying two percent. our oppressors the brits in london were paying 20 percent. it is expensive running an e empire. we need to go back to 2 percent. i like 2 percent better than 18. >> to be clear we are at 40

percent>> when we are 2 percent we function fairly well. the british were taxing themselves at 20 percent because they were returning an empire. >> thank you groefr and steve. coming up when governments can't raise taxes any more they find other ways to please people like devaluing the currency. rove said americans are doing it now. what does that do to a country? didn't work out so well for rome. that's next. - while i was in the military, i served my country.

i did my job. but as a veteran with a disability, i was worried about my career prospects. after my traumatic brain injury, vocrehab helped me roll up my sleeves and get back to work. - made me realize i could plant a beautiful garden for my community center. - took my professional development to the next level with vocational counseling and education. ♪ - showed me a bright future, even though my sight was damaged in combat. ♪ - elevated my career, even though a back injury prevented me from doing heavy lifting. - prepared me for my next mission, and helped me realize that success after the service is possible. announcer: if your service-connected disability prevents you from continuing in your civilian career, vocrehab offers counseling, training with a living allowance, education, and

other services to help prepare you for your next mission.

>> welcome back to the freedom fest conference the world's biggest gathering of people like me, people who care most about liberty. most of the audience hates taxes. actually even many politicians

don't like them. taxes people makes people mad. forever they have found sneaky ways to get the funding. they a bush elf wheat that costs 8 roman dollars by the next century costs 120,000. ben powell an economist at texas tech and jeffery tucker study it they say we bet be careful the american dollar is already going down. i feared that and yes inflation is low. are you kidding me? look over time. grandmothers are rolling over in their graves right now. any young person has heard someone say i remember when that cost a nickel. what happened is the currency

lost its value. it takes $23 to buy today what $1 could back in 1913>> you have to go back to 1913. inflation is two percent a year. historically that's pretty good. this isn't a big mystery, though. the federal reserve has saved a lot of money but the banks are holding most of it back. they are holding it at extra reserves because the fed started paying mutual funds extra returns. >> such a form of robbery, actually. i mean, yeah, it's a serious issue. you can't get a return on your money any more from savings. you can't save an investment. that is precisely what this policy is discouraging. >> let's go back to the rome parallel free trade rules they

prosper and they did what politicians do. >> their empire kept expanding and they were bringing in more people you can bring money back to rome. in # 100 ad they hit the maximum extent of the empire. then they started resorting to other ways to raise money which was de basing their currency taking silver out of the coins raising tax rates and there was the down fall of rome where the big government destroyed romes. the bar pair bare ons came after they were collapsing under their own weight. >> the next emperor this is one of those it was 85 percent. all of the way down to>> you have got a good one 85 percent silver. it ended up becoming one five thou tho thousand sands. >> they start to debate the currency. what has been going on in this

country about 100 years ago with the creation of iffed rale reserve basically nationalized the dollar. put it under a arrangement. we have seen the quality diminish over the 100-years which is faster than it happened in rome if you think about it. >> it is hard to get people worked up about this because they look around and they say by and large america is doing pretty well. >> there's a great deal of disportion in this business. people thought the real estate markets were doss doing pretty well in 2007. there are surprises around the corner. with the government that refuses to honor itself honesty. it makes the government fail. >> politicians have to worry about spending restraints. as long as the debtor is there with unlimited credit card to pay for everything. we have just an unlimited

spending. there will be no spefrnding as long as the fed is there to bail any one and everyone out all of the of the time. >> when inflation comes when will the governments do? they issued wage and price control. >> when they were divorced in gold in 1971 what came after that? 1670d and universal wage and pricing compare the to nixon. he did it in 300 ad he made it punishable by death. even still you got the same bad consequences shortages decreases in quality product not coming to market. >> distortions they wouldn't let you change jobs, either. constantine says any one who remains in the current occupation may be bound in chains.

when he opposed this he used greed. they were eager to turn a profit on blessings of the god. i hate it when people use greed to explain something. greed is constant. it is always there. that can't explain a price decrease. the greedy oil companies are less greedy the price came down. doesn't work like that. greed doesn't explain it. (applause) >> one solution some people say government playing with the currency is the gold standard. we had one for a while. it didn't really work. >> before you answer that for this lib berrien audience how many of you own gold sh, either actual gold or investment. >> i image you watching out there it is knotted so high.

you are different because you don't trust the federal reserve? (applause) >> really great goal i won't have the government involved at all. >> gold has fallen from 1600 to 1300. some of you lost a lot of money. maybe this is bad advice. >> cogold investment and centers the same thing. it is always speculation. ju you are not recommending gold as an investment. >> it entirely depends on what people's expectations are. that should be in the price of gold. everybody else is too pessimistic or optimistic. that tells us if it is a good investment not a good standard. >> bit coins? >> it only came about 4 years ago it was one in a long success

-- succession -- >> it is an internet currency>> it is very innovative by comparison to the dollar. they make the dollar look like a dinosaur like no improvement of our money in a very long time. it is currency for the physical age. the government is not involved in this at all. if you buy the market itself it is a beautiful thing. >> 10 years ago will the market create a new digital currency that allows me to exchange somewhere anywhere in the world even if you don't have a credit card you can still exchange money. will that happen? is no it won't happen. it did happen and it is brilliant. >> thank you shlgs , on that no.

roman emperors spent big bucks on stadiums like the coliseum. sometimes fighting animals. there are american parallels to that, too. that's next. gladder aiders and sometimes fighting animals. there are american equivalents to that as well. [ male announcer ] this is george. the day building a play set begins with a surprisewinge of back pain... and a choice. take up to 4 advil in a day or 2 aleve for all day relief. [ male announcer ] that's handy. ♪

>> welcome back to "freedom fest." are we rome, meaning on the road to collapse? ancient rome's rulers trying to keep the family hiar country ha offered distractions and bribes. one poet called it rid in circus. sometimes it was an actual circus or gladiators sometimes fighting to the death. america doesn't allow that yet but sports economist jc bradbury says they still fund circumstance cass sicircuses. >> it is common where a polytheists significance says we need to pull it together to keep us happy.

it will increase economic development. they athey will bay for themselves they don't in atlanta. the county received 200,000 per year in, paing revenue they got 30,000. that is time after time they said we are going to get parking revenue didn't happen. or much less and they say. >> it will pay for itself from day one. >> think never do. what is frustrating it haehneli it has been studied so much. that is not a common comment about that. citizens were giving up some of the freedoms but the politicians gave them the things they wanted. today they like sports. sports are popular.

you say why don't i go ahead and support it. i am not going to fun nish a politician for supporting. >> our stadiums do pail compared to what they did. the glad yat tors this ways entertainment to keep them pacified because they were getting ticked off? >> not that they were ticked off but it distracts us from other things going on. if i know a politician put his football team on the field i like football. i am not going to focus on the declining schools or other things that may be going on. maybe other things politicians can't help but it is something that individuals and citizens can focus on and say it is a positive thing for our community. that is why they are so popular. >> most gladiators were saves. 95 percent of them survived the fight because it would be

expensive to the owner of the slave if they were killed? >> right. the slave was killed you didn't want to pay the owner. it is a type of entertainment for the times. it was something people enjoyed and wanted to see. luckily we have more pass -- passivistic sports. it is a different in the way we view those competitions today and then. >> the emperors increased in 169 bc 63 african lions and leopards 40 bears el vanephants were hun down in a single two-day show. tigers crock piles giraffes they would bring them in from all over the world to kill them. the emperor would often kill them himself.

luxury boxes. but it is the same thing. it gets more and more extravagant. >> at least problematic as our politicians are. thank you jc bradbury and when i said that bad we barely touched the surface of how bad the roman rulers were. that's next. welcome back. how is everything? there's nothing like being your own boss! and my customers are really liking your flat rate shipping. fedex one rate. really makes my life easier. maybe a promotion is in order. good news. i got a new title. and a raise? management couldn't make that happen. [ male announcer ] introducing fedex one rate. simple, flat rate shipping with the reliability of fedex.

[beep] [indistinct chatter]

[kids talking at once] [speaking foreign language] [heart beating] [heartbeat continues] [faint singing] [heartbeat, music playing louder] ♪ i'm feeling better since you know me ♪ ♪ i was a lonely soul, but that's the old me... ♪ announcer: this song was created with heartbeats of children in need. find out how it can help frontline health workers bring hope to millions of children at everybeatmatters.org.

>> is america rome? no. thank goodness, we are not as bad in 100 ways. our taxes are actually higher than roerm's. but we don't have slaves and we don't kill people for support. when we go to war misguided or not we don't conquer or plunder. when we win we usually leave. that is different. in america poor people now live better than the others did we have air-conditioning google pain-killers, flushing toilets longer lives. thanks to the example set by george washington they often leave office voluntarily.

although the current president wastes money on recent $100 million trip to africa, nero was much worse. he ner wore the same clothes clothes -- -- nero was worse. another emperor set up a brothel in the palace. sigh beer why yous established an office of imperial pleasure which gathered beautiful boys and girls for all corners of the world so the emperor could de file them. galigula said to have made his favorite horse a senator. >> allow me to introduce the new senator. you will treat him as your peer in every respect. >> even president obama wouldn't

do that. (laughter) >> arrogance as our politicians are and repugnant as many of them are they are at least not emperors who like caligula held orgies and executed the senator's wives who didn't show up. empires do crumble. rome lasted the longest of all of them. the ottoman empire was next then the spanish almost that long as did the british. we have lasted less than 300 years. alexander the great's empire only lasted 13 years. we have accomplished amazing prosperity. we can't take it for granted because free and prosperous is not the natural state of things. in human history it is rare. we now are starting to look a

lot like rome and we ought to worry about that. that is our show. thank you for coming. see you next week. of you watching. huckabee throw seconds. >> tonight on huckabee. she went in the hospital for tonsle surgery andened up on life support. jaha mcmap is brain dead. >> there is no medical eninstruments that will bring her bavenlth her family wants life support to continue. >> if they take one percent of the money they are 53ing hired guards and help us we could have her out of here. >> what does her family do next? >> bobby shinnedler brother of terri schiavo in a huckabee