dea do you agree with tucker that fathers should not be doing their daughter's hair? neil: okay, thank you guys so much. john: at the wealth gap is getting worse. >> this is the defining challenge of our time. >> the rich are getting richer. the other percentage of people are left to suffer. john: you suffer because these people make more than you? and government can force more quality. and every one of these is run by

democrats. >> equality versus liberty. john: and that is our show tonight. ♪ ♪ >> now it is time for john stossel. john: some will be more successful than others. maybe they are smarter or they work harder or they are just luckier. whatever the reason in the global economy, that success kids magnified. michael jordan has made much more money because he could do things like sell these t-shirts in china. because of the free market, globalization and new technology, a result is growing inequality. it has been viewed at least 13 million times. >> the poorest americans don't

even register in it they are down to pocket change. the top two to 5% are actually off the chart. the income inequality has gotten worse and the >> you ask, do people suffer makes 400 times what the average worker makes.

and what you are talking about, when it comes to corporations whether it's wal-mart or mcdonald's down the list, the top echelon of the corporate world makes it exceedingly larger amount of money than workers do. and microsoft made it a good wage.

and you have been doing all the business with china all the time,. john: it is true that we have a big gap between rich and poor. those of us resist to squeeze this down apparently in england in 1990 and you were part of the british parliament. and margaret thatcher is responding to your argument. >> i agree with her and the point is that rather than having a big gap we should all be together. >> selects talk about this in terms of the very poor and the

very wealthy. and you can't ma . d you can't ma >> how would you fix it? ? >> you can't make it on $7.25 an hour. that is wrong. and it is just not right. raising the minimum wage cost

people jobs is what they say and it does not. >> but isn't it logical that if it cost more and you will get a little bit less of a? john: well, what do you think? >> nobody, but nobody can live on that. they work 60 or 70 hours a week and you cannot expect them to live on this income is especially when the ceo is making 500 or 600 times and you think anyone is worth that kind of money? do you think any ceo is what that? john: i'm grossed out by it. but if the markets as they are committee must be. because somebody is voluntarily paying them. >> the board of directors is usually appointed by a ceo. john: i say the most important

thing is individual liberty. and if we are free, there will be inequality. and the important thing is the quality. people born poor don't necessarily stay poor. most gradually move up and here is part of a video made by the institute for humane studies. >> when you look at households in the bottom quintile, we see about 45% of them have moved up to higher quintile. about 42% in 1987 had fallen to a lower quintile by 1993. >> there's a lot of truth to that in a good economy if you look at the most robust economic history and if you look worldwide, a lot of countries rose out of poverty.

and we are talking about gross inequality between those at the top who have rigged the system to make more money than those that work for them and that is the problem. that is not free-market capitalism. that is cronyism at its worst. john: crony capitalism is wrong and we agree on that. >>. we agree on that. >> we're surging to an even greater ip equality. >> he became u.s. skret of labor and made this movie. >> i had protect people from the people who would beat them up economically. i turn to libertarian teebor mccann.

aren't they? isn't bob? >> no way. i was under communism myself in my early years. >> grew up in hungary. >> and they are not helping the little guy. that is a myth. they talk a good game, but as far as delivery is concerned, the left does nothing but place ultimately people into concentration camps because nobody will comply with their stupid vision. >> but neither bob nor president obama is putting people in concentration camps. >> not yet. under the left you have these people who are supposed to be getting on board willingly, but they don't come on board willingly, very few of them do, just like with obama care, it's very similar. >> i don't pay taxes willingly. i pay it because i have to. >> the inequality hurts nobody unless it came about through theft or fraud. >> is it not at all gross that some people have so much more --

>> it's not any more gross thans basketballs much better than some other people down on the street. it's no worse than the fact that the kenyan marathon winners win every year, over and over and over again. this is the way the world goes. and any time when you try to upset it with human mettling, you encounter what economists call the public choice problem, namely, you put the matter in the hands of people who are just as imperfect, just as venal, this whole idea you can get people up there who will set things right, manage everything. it's what hyatt called the fatal conceit. and it is fatal. >> if the central planners can bring us all together -- >> exactly. they talk a good game, but they do not deliver nearly anything

as good as they sound. >> part of the talk is this moral outrage at the inequality. you cite an example in england, there's a guy who is going to stop the rich from enjoying their privilege. >> he jumped in the water when the regatta was going on because he thought it was an elitest contest. so what if it was? golf is elitest. tennis is elitest. >> he also said cabbies should take rich passengers on long detours. the media is saying the rich get rich at the expense of the poor. >> while the wrichest americans prosper, the other 99% of workers are left to suffer. >> while the poor are now poorer. >> after all, as the movie wall street says, it's a zero sum game. somebody wins. somebody loses.

money itself isn't made or lost, it's simply transferred. >> that's a mistake a lot of people make. it's like wealth is like a pot. >> you smell that? fresh baked pie right from the oven, would you like a piece? which of you gets a piece? in the zero sum game, the rich take a big piece, so the rest of us have less. >> but in a free society, it's not a zero sum game. >> the makers who get rich get rich by baking many more pies. >> i don't think people get that, that bill gates baked a lot of new pies. >> they don't get it, although adam smith made himself famous by showing that the economy is not a zero sum game, but that both sides, at least believe they gain through exchange. >> and unless they both win, the trade doesn't happen because it's voluntary. >> exactly. these people tend to think that they know better, and that if they were at the helm, everything would work out fine, and it never does. they know that they are smarter

than anybody else. they're the guys at harvard, at the kennedy school of government and so on. they know, and whoever challenges them, the prestige is supposed to speak miles and miles. and it's all a crock. >> if you had to choose between equality and liberty? >> it's no contest. >> thank you be tibor mccann. if you'd like to keep this conversation going, go on facebook or twitter, use that hash tag, class warfare, let people know what you think. coming up, how much money does anyone need? many americans hate rich businessmen. but i notice they rarely hate celebrities on the red carpet, who are just as rich. >> do you mind that they make millions of dollars? >> no, it hasn't really occurred to me that i mind. i just like watching them.

[ male announcer ] meet mary. she loves to shop online with her debit card. and so does bill, an identity thief who stole mary's identity, took over her bank accounts, and stole her hard-earned money. unfortunately, millions of americans just like you learn all it may take is a little misplaced information to wreak havoc on your life. this is identity theft. and no one helps stop it better than lifelock. lifelock offers the most comprehensive identity theft protection available. if mary had lifelock's bank account alerts, she may have been notified before it was too late. lifelock's credit notification service is on the job 24/7. as soon as they detect a threat to your identity within their network, they will alert you, protecting you before the damage is done. lifelock has the most comprehensive identity theft protection available, guarding your social security number, your money, your credit, even the equity in your home. my years as a prosecutor taught me

that we all need to protect ourselves from crime. in today's world, that includes identity theft. it's a serious problem. we all have to protect ourselves. [ male announcer ] while identity theft can't be completely stopped, no one works harder to protect you than lifelock. you even get a $1 million service guarantee. that's security no one can beat. you have so much to protect and nothing to lose when you call lifelock right now and get 60 days of identity theft protection risk free. that's right. 60 days risk free. use promo code notme. order now and get this document shredder to keep sensitive documents out of the wrong hands. a $29 value free. don't wait until you become the next victim. ♪ ♪

>> maria charcot but is the biggest earning female athlete in the entire world. 23 million in endorsements. john: does it bother you that she took home more? she makes the most money because she is a good-looking blonde. how unfair is that?

and they accept that movie stars and singers make movies to. >> the money that they make millions of dollars? >> it doesn't occur to me. >> does it bother you that tiger woods made $70 million? >> it doesn't bother me. >> does it bother you that some ceos make aliens when others don't? >> yes. i think people should be treated as equal. >> what is that other people when they are okay with beyoncé or tiger woods being rich? >> we have tried to understand how the things they do are part

of this. why did he make more than anyone else? he is showing up nine to five just like me. so you don't get that same connection. and we are changing the incentives. people and the economy are making money as they are doing something productive.

and if you are worth $100 million a year, there are a lot of people out there. john: i have some chunky monkey ice cream here. they said on their website during the occupied wall street, existing between classes is immoral. and they said that they would pay their executives no more than five times what they pay the lowest paid worker.

and i'm going to adopt a message for doing that instead of going and trying to do productive things and that is something that we need to avoid. john: i do think it is hilarious golf, tennis, basketball, football, soccer. it's well distributed. making millions of dollars. >> even when there is some outraged and we are focusing on

this misunderstanding of where this wealth comes from. john: the nba and nfl the nfl have the salary caps. and it's interesting. and it's a little bit less competitive than football. and then in baseball you don't have things like the patriots or the denver broncos were the pittsburgh steelers. and it's not a cure-all and there are always ways around it. and there are companies that are trying to make money all the way around. john: coming up, what is fair and why are we talking about

money? is it fair that he's good-looking or 6-foot four and inches? it doesn't seem fair to me that i was the shortest kid in middle school. i got kicked off and when it comes to inequality, government intervention is part of the problem. because government subsidizes rich people now. problem.

whoa! nobody insures more bikes than progressive. do you guys ride? well... no. sometimes, yeah. yes. well, if you know anybody else who also rides, send them here -- we got great coverage. it's not like bikers love their bikes more than life itself. i doubt anyone will even notice. leading the pack in motorcycle insurance. now, that's progressive. call or click today. aarrggh!

john: there is one thing of the like our government to do to reduce income inequality. the wall street journal economics professor senior economics writer steven moore proposes something they called the billionaires' subsidy elimination act. what do you mean? >> we found and there is between 100 and $200 billion of our money that goes to

people who make over $1 billion or companies with profits over $1 billion a week give up with a proposal. why don't we capped the government subsidies to people who make less than $1 billion a? do millionaires and really anyby from the government? john: no. a and senator tom colbert because they're rich and famous? >> let me start with an uneasy one. think about social security and medicare you think of benefits that go to seniors was loaded, but everybody over the age as 65 gets medicare and social security including bill gates or warren buffett. do they really need a check every month from the federal government? john: at least those go to everybody. >> the true. but running $800 billion deficits per year can you

afford to send delegates a check? also we have farm programs a classic example. if you have been in combat hundred $50,000 per to with the farmers do? they defied their farm among the sister or though wife each one gets an end to $50,000. when you combine that they will get $10 million but. john: another scheme is flood insurance. >> are you really a beneficiary of the program? [laughter] did you send the check back? >> i built on the edge because i was guaranteed a could not lose. it is insane but congress brags about it and the government spends your money to advertise it. >> we help you protect your home. >> the of flood insurance program at its peak at

5.5 million voters. john: when she said that it was $90 billion know it is $30 billion in the red. people say i did not plan their hurricane i did not know the river would flood. we need to help these people. what is wrong with that? >> people that are even richer than you. those with beachfront property hall or those of the west coast. >> for those of malibu beach john: in the kennedy family has the nuys compound. >> why should taxpayers paid to rebuild their homes? it is called the moral hazard program. we encourage people to overbuilt on the river bet or beach front property because if there is a big storm guess who will russian?

the taxpayer to pay for the rebuilding. i have a problem with that. john: i do to. i apologize. [laughter] i will not take your money again it will not be insured by the government. government offers subsidies to those that invest in green energy like windmills. like the wind farm in texas and also if you install solar panels. >> for instance to invest in solar energy in your home we have tax credits. >> it is a playpen of the rich and famous. when you look at homes in america of with solar panels there are people in beverly hills and of the richest areas with the biggest holmes did here again we have a subsidy that moseley goes to millionaires and billionaires. demeaned investor was g. you probably saw the story a few years ago that they in essentially paid no

corporate income-tax. how can one of america's most profitable company paid no corporate income tax? because they take advantage of a lot of the corporate loopholes like the solar and wind a subsidy. john: it is a tax credit but if you don't make $40,000 a year you don't benefit. >> that's the point. john: if we got rid of all of these? >> about tueber did billion dollars per year -- $200 billion per year it would be more fair. john: to macon and, more equal? most americans say raise minimum wage. that is what these protesters want. ♪ ( bell rings ) they remind me so much of my grandkids. wish i saw mine more often, but they live so far away.

i've been thinking about moving in with my daughter and her family. it's been pretty tough since jack passed away. it's a good thing you had life insurance through the colonial penn program. you're right. it was affordable, and we were guaranteed acceptance. guaranteed acceptance? it means you can't be turned down because of your health. you don't have to take a physical or answer any health questions. they don't care about your aches and pains. well, how do you know? did you speak to alex trebek? because i have a policy myself. it costs just $9.95 a month per unit. it's perfect for my budget. my rate will never go up. and my coverage will never go down because of my age. affordable coverage and guaranteed acceptance? we should give them a call. do you want to help protect your loved ones from the burden of final expenses? if you're between 50 and 85, you can get quality insurance that does not require any health questions or a medical exam.

your rate of $9.95 a month per unit will never increase, and your coverage will never decrease -- that's guaranteed. so join the six million people who have already called about this insurance. whether you're getting new insurance or supplementing what you already have, call now and ask one of their representatives about a plan that meets your needs. so, what are you waiting for? go call now! we'll finish up here.

is a really big deal.u with aches, fever and chills-

there's no such thing as a little flu. so why treat it like it's a little cold? there's something that works differently than over-the-counter remedies. prescription tamiflu attacks the flu virus at its source. so call your doctor right away. tamiflu treats the flu in people 2 weeks and older whose flu symptoms started within the last two days. before taking tamiflu tell your doctor if you're pregnant, nursing, have serious health conditions, or take other medicines. if you develop an allergic reaction, a severe rash, or signs of unusual behavior, stop taking tamiflu and call your doctor immediately. children and adolescents in particular may be at an increased risk of seizures, confusion or abnormal behavior. the most common side effects are mild to moderate nausea and vomiting. so don't wait. attack the flu virus at its source. ask your doctor about tamiflu, prescription for flu.

john: unions and fast-food workers have been holding raise the minimum wage protests. >> i need to be able to support my family. john: i want her to support her family and 66 percent of americans want the minimum wage raise. valdez protestors say it could be $15? some people told me it ought to be more. >> $20? just make it 20 then companies can go from there. >> for the moment obama said just wants to dollars and $0.10. it is hard to live on $7.25 so who opposes a raise? this woman does gingrich benjamin works for a the

think tank the most fertile you want $10? >> it is a great start. washington state has the minimum-wage and their economy is no worse than ours so yes. it is great. john: what is wrong with that? >> that is washington state. we need to let companies decide what it is correct. john: you made a comment that it is good to raise the wage to attend and wine at 100? >> exactly. at its very core hiking the minimum wage distorts the marketplace to dictate it is a government dictating to business what is the correct wage. that is a dangerous and slippery slope. why not raise it at $1? >> some people had their way especially corporations than why not those zero?

john: no minimum-wage. >> have people volunteer. john: why not? if people want to miss. >> we don't land pay raise to the bottom. we want a robust middle-class in order for that to happen we have to pay folks on the order of $10 per hour. so then why not on the low end? john: if government can artificially make government better off then why are you so cheap? >> $100 is the extreme that would not work. john: bob beckel said there is no study that shows it will raise unemployment i begin by half to pay more i will automate or hire fewer people. >> all economists agree there is a cost. everyone agrees. but the question is whether or not is worth the benefit. >> we go whether the minimum wage will cost jobs.

we told think it will. but if you paid folks more they will consume there is a multiplier defect. they will be purchasers and consumers of products that is necessary. studies have shown if you pay a minimum wage that as $50 billion to the economy. >> that is not true. you are hiking the price of food. john: you deny of higher minimum wage will take away some jobs? >> no. how do we know this? costco pays a fair wage. >> that is costco. john: the federal reserve and california irvine found 85 percent of the studies show minimum-wage cause whose job loss. i have to pay people more i will hire less. >> more salient studies show low income people who made

more -- make more money put that back into the economy. john: that's true. >> so they have a $15 hamburger. that is with a blunt. john: you used to make minimum wage? >> i feel this from a personal level and what got me out was not increasing the minimum wage but getting the education. the fact is putting a minimum wage at unsustainable levels basically perpetuates the cycle of poverty. john: so let me hit you with the question from the senator kennedy's. >> do you have such distain for hard-working americans? >> did he ever work on minimum-wage? i don't think so. he came from privilege. >> we can boost educational opportunity. >> artificially high king

said minimum wage causes students to drop long-term education. they get attracted to the ad jobs in the short term but long term they sacrifice their potential. why would you incentivize that? >> then let's make it $100? you could make the opposite -- opposite argument to say $0. >> only 5% are paid minimum wage. 95% don't need the rule and if adults want to work at $2 then why can't we be free to do that? >> why can't we be free to let children work or that? because we the government to help us along as to what is equitable. john: what about clean-air?

if the kids are not slaves and they want to work, people have free choice. >> zaph 5% is the important 5% we look out for those there is no reason why we cannot look at the 5% better earning the minimum wage. >> the defeatist mentality is there is a culpability on of the 5% and basically you are incentivizing people rather than work up the ladder you shave off the bottom rungs by hiking the standard for everyone's been a this is america, it will adjust and all the chickens falling argument never bear out each time we raise it. >> it is government creep. it is clear. [laughter] john: talk about inequality between the four in the rich.

what is rich? >> to be rich i should be hi, i'm terry and i have diabetic nerve pain.

it's hard to describe, because you have a numbness, but yet you have the pain like thousands of needles sticking in your foot. it was progressively getting worse, and at that point i knew i had to do something. once i started taking the lyrica the pain started subsiding. [ male announcer ] it's known that diabetes damages nerves. lyrica is fda approved to treat diabetic nerve pain. lyrica is not for everyone. it may cause serious allergic reactions or suicidal thoughts or actions. tell your doctor right away if you have these, new or worsening depression, or unusual changes in mood or behavior. or swelling, trouble breathing, rash, hives, blisters, changes in eyesight including blurry vision, muscle pain with fever, tired feeling, or skin sores from diabetes. common side effects are dizziness, sleepiness, weight gain and swelling of hands, legs and feet. don't drink alcohol while taking lyrica. don't drive or use machinery until you know how lyrica affects you. those who have had a drug or alcohol problem may be more likely to misuse lyrica.

ask your doctor about lyrica today. it's specific treatment for diabetic nerve pain. john: are you rich?

what would it take for you to think of yourself as rich >> 100,000. >> 1 million. >> for to thousand. >> $1 million to seven different concepts no one in times square said they were rich but most were to wrist to spend a lot of money just to be in new york city. so what does that mean in america? who better to ask the and dave ramsey whose figures talking to people and you say americans are richer they and they know? >> if your household income is $34,000 per year or more your in the top 1 percent of income earners in the world. by definition most of us are rich. john: what engrosses some people opt is that some are so much richer than others. >> i spent my life to helping people with money and i want to see people live in but i have figured

out that everybody will not be tiger woods. not everybody will be paid to manning. john: would it be better for america if governments would level the playing field to bring the rich closer? >> if we decide with moral outrage to react to the unfairness the only answer is a loss of freedom. freedom and liberty are chaotic but they give the little man the best opportunity to win. socialism and communism told this whole discussion is a precursor to moving us towards socialism and debris from freedom. john: the wealth gap is socialism. >> artificially. taking from the rich in the robin hood kind of way because we said the american-led does not work. the game is rigged i have a

relative that says it is the corporation's. it is the corporation's. like they are a bogyman. warren buffett, oprah, tyler perry, bill gates started with nothing. seven of 10 started with nothing. so the idea it is readying you cannot win that is where i have a problem with our present and because he says he does not believe in freedom or capitalism but what he really says bill whole philosophical argument is we have to move to government intervention to prevent this unfairness. john: lecter household said, americans have gotten richer. seven and a $50 but in today's dollars that is 20,000. 1947, 31,000. today it is 62,000. >> my first year out of college and 80,000 and three years jittery to of hundred

50,000 an extra 96,000. do you know, whose fault that was? might. every one of those was my fault. i am in the environment and i believed but it is not a crisis of inequality but a crisis of belief we can go into the marketplace to bring in an end to resell them the idea they cannot succeed resell them that socialism is the answer. john: i had to parents. i could go to a good high school. many people have a harder start. >> absolutely. people start from different places we all have different sets of challenges. ago on twitter got angry with me. you don't understand you started with the advantage. the young man working for me african-american making a lot of money who grew up in

a single mom hall in the projects. this is ridiculous the ada you cannot win in the marketplace. you can find plenty of excuses for you have great care. i am vault. it is not the distribution of hair. john: thank you dave ramsey. what is fair? is about money? i say it is unfair i got picked on one item was a kid because i was extra small. i wanted government program to protect the late bloomers. bloomers. next.

so, i'm working on a cistern intake valve, and the guy hands me a locknut wrench. no way! i'm like, what is this, a drainpipe slipknot? wherever your business takes you, you can se money with progressive commercial auto. [ sighs ] [ flo speaking japanese ] [ shouting in japanese ] we work wherever you work. now, that's progressive. call or click today.

john: these people are rich. many are multimillionaire's but yet they smile and pose of the red carpet. others struggle. how is that fair? and the gap keeps increasing today the richest 1 percent of americans own one-third of americans wealth. 1% own a 35%. that just is not right. there is a reason for the minimum wage protest. a reason for occupy wall street. of course, and that sign is

absurdly did i percent of americans are not for but in a rich country what is fair? the author of the new book, the baby boom expanded my concept. freedom is not fair. i have a 13 year-old daughter all i hear is it's not fair. it's not fair. i say you were cute. that's not fair. your smart. that's not fair. you were born in the united states. that's not fair. you better get down on your needs that the install start getting fair for you. good point. the movie stars are not all be rich but they have other advantages. jennifer lawrence is pretty but talented. george clooney is more smoother and better looking than i am. what is wrong with that? i want to be a professional basketball player it is a fairly broad james is stronger and more skilled and a better player. does not my fault that i

matured today to supply was tiny in school and i was picked on because i had a of little kid voice and everybody else's had change. that was definitely not fair. may be american ad needs the handicapped general. a government official like a surgeon general or attorney-general to make sure that no one has the unfair advantage over anyone else. >> even when beautiful there wear a mask in situations where the duty could be too distracting. john: the idea of redistributing income seems more reasonable especially when some americans are so rich. but the truth is the fate of most of the report does not depend on government. the world's best poverty fighter is free-market capitalist.

capitalism is held in contempt of universities but capitalism allows millions of people lift themselves out of poverty. fools and the media say capitalism serves the rich at the expense of the pork. that is not true. and everyone is free to trade the free markets get more people the power to prosper. the markets are the big equalizer. money does not care if you're black or white or brown. the people at the bottom need capitalism most of the partial free market is why even as poverty programs fail poor people in america don't suffer the with the poor suffer in most of the world. in america even those at the bottom of the latter do pretty well. of one of our health problems is obesity. you know, you live in a good place when one of the biggest problems is we are too fat. free-market capitalism does allow some people to get much richer than others but that's okay.

inequality may seem unfair but the alternative is government force that leaves everyone for. that's our show. see you next week. i'm john roberts in for chris wallace. congress returns to work amid continued gridlock on capitol hill. while outside the beltway, scandal threatens a potential gop front-runner. >> i am embarrassed and humiliated by the conduct of some of the people on my team. >> we'll look into the fallout over the traffic jam for political payback fiasco in new jersey. plus, take a deeper look inside the tell-all book by former defense secretary robert gates that's putting the obama administration on defense. >> i can just tell you what the facts are. you can decide for yourself what you want to believe. >> our sunday